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Scotland v France 6 nations Championship Saturday 26th February 2022

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Scotland v France 6 nations Championship Saturday 26th February 2022 - Page 5 Empty Scotland v France 6 nations Championship Saturday 26th February 2022

Post by BigGee Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:06 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v France
6 Nations Championship

Saturday 26th February 2022
BT Murrayfield Stadium
Edinburgh

KO 14.15


Well the Auld Alliance trophy is up for stake between Scotland and France.

France who are probably everybodies favourites for the championship now +/- a Grand Slam to boot but they have found Scotland a hard nut to crack over the past few years and it has likely cost them 2 championshipos. They won't be taking us lightly this time, nor will they probably throw the game a way with a silly punch or crazy run from their own line with the clock dead.

They will be tough to beat though, all the more so as they will be taking this game very seriously.

As for Scotland, well how different this game might have been had we played well and beaten Wales. The optimism around Scotland following the first game against England has evaporated. Add to that we have now got an injury list that will test our now improved depth. However we look at it though, Ritchie, JG, Sutherland and Cummings will be missed.

Still Scotland are back were they are happiest, underdogs with no-one giving them much of a chance. We will surely play better than we did against wales, we will need to!

I am thinking about a side something like this:

1. Schoeman
2. McInally
3. Fagerson Z
4. Gilchrist
5. Skinner
6. Bradbury
7. Watson
8. Fagerson M (if fit) - Baylis if not
9. Price
10. Russell
11. DVDM
12. Redpath
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg

Bench

Keeble
Turner
Nel
Hodgson
Darge
White
Kinghorn
Tuipolotu

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Post by Gooseberry Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:20 pm

Russell was the greatest living Scott when Townsend ditched him for his attitude. Now hes back he was a key part of the win over England, but suddenly its Townsends fault he is still lazy.

The problem for Scotland is always going to be depth of resources. Theres only so many players they can pick from who have professional level credentials, and that may to some extent create a certain attitude amongst the most skilled of those. Its not like Scotland have an array of other options to look at, and its still to both parties credit that Russell found a way back into the side after all the drama.

Cant imagine Russells going to learn much about playing to a tight formulaic structure in France, part of what he liked there was the freedom to do as he pleased!

How Townsend came about the job is still a bit odd, but I do feel he gets an unfair level of stick for the downs with the ups very quickly forgotten. Its less than a month ago they were on one of Scotlands best runs in the modern game, and up till France were the best defensive team in world rugby.

And even this loss isnt as bad as the pumping they took from England in Fern Cottons last season in charge when they shipped 61 points. 3 wins is still as good as it gets for Scotland in the 6 nations, and thats still a possibility ...albeit Ireland a tough ask. a 2-3 record might not be something to celebrate, but still a mile above the days they used to rely on beating Italy.

Obviously if they do lose to the shower of shirts that is Italy then Townsend deserves to be sacked and shamed publicly. But this was a loss to by far the best team in the NH, and possibly the world, and a one where the 5 nations are collectively strong.

Disappointing sure, but theres no magic wand. Just need to players to step up a gear and not have to face the current French attack.

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Post by bsando Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:09 pm

The standards have been quite high for this Scotland side and the depth was building nicely. It’s a step back for sure but as you say Gooseberry we shouldn’t be hammering Townsend for two poor results, the latest one most of us expected to lose anyway.

As fans it’s sad to see this tournament treated as a testing ground for depth and the RWC. Experienced backline players who had good form behind them have been left out. That for me is the big negative this year. Only the coaches can create that situation.

Russell is Russell. He’s a good player, brings a lot to a Scotland shirt but yesterday he was rightly called out for several things after the match. I think Hastings should have been in the squad from day one and I’m frankly bored of repeating myself about that now. He was starting against France when we beat them in 2020, and threw the match winning pass in Paris last year. Different French sides for sure but Hastings has proven to be a reliable and worthy fly half for Scotland. The coaches need to do better in justifying his exclusion.

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Post by RDW Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:16 pm

Interesting comments from Toonie post much, something along the lines of "we lost because the players didn't stick to the gameplan when things started going wrong"

You can read that in several ways, but one obvious one is 'it's not my fault - the players just didn't follow my plan!'

Problem then comes if the players aren't a fan of GT's plan, as we saw in the past with Russell.

If they are happy with the plan then it says a lot about mental fragility in the players.

Going to be an interesting 2 weeks, and it's probably a good thing it's a rest week with a lot of the players back at their clubs.

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Post by RDW Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:30 pm

Harris failed an HIA at halftime apparently.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:17 pm

I disagree bsando, it's an overall trend not just two results and it is perfectly fair to question Toonies tenure. It's the job of a coach to get buy in from the players. You look at Edinburgh under cockers then under Blair and can see the palpable difference for example. Ireland under Schmidt then Farrell. France under galthie. SA under Rassie. All these teams have bought into their game plan and consistently execute it.

Now look at England, Wales, New Zealand. All have different problems (well, new Zealand's are that they've gone from such a high place to a quite high place) from either stale and dogmatic coaching (a la Jones) or new gameplans that the players don't get. This leads to inconsistency.

We're seeing this pattern with Scotland who under Toonie have gone through multiple game plans and ways of playing to the point where they don't really have a tried and tested plan that just plays to their strengths. You feel 75% of focus is on what the opposition may do rather than getting things right in the first place!

So far we are lucky to have one win, I said at the time we won when we shouldn't have, it was not exactly good rugby! The worry for me is these odd wins getting toonie out of jail all the time.

I think we have a rarely talented Scotland squad who have flattered Toonies record and any success has been more down to individual talents than collective performance, which is why when Finn fails, Scotland fails. We used to punch above the weight of our combined parts, now we've got better parts and strength in depth we're not making the most of it.

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Post by RDW Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:03 pm

I agree that our gameplan has become very much muddled. We didn't play great against England but at least there was a clear intent on show in terms of how we were playing. Wales we gave away too many penalties and kept dropping the ball. France, in the 2nd half especially, the players just looked like they didn't know what they were actually meant to be doing!

We talk about depth in the team but I actually think we were pretty rudderless once the subs came on. If you look at the team we ended the game with:

1 Kebble
2 Turner
3 Nel
4 Hodgeson
5 Skinner
6 Christie
7 Darge
8 Bradbury

9 White
10 Kinghorn
11 VDM
12 Tuipolotu
13 Bennett
14 Graham
15 Hogg

That team's not gonna strike much fear into anyone! Particularly the pack. There is no doubt our depth is as strong as it's ever been, however we are still heavily reliant on our top players to be able to take these big scalps.

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Post by EST Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:55 am

Well, it was a great day out, but that performance was as flat as I can remember. As good as France were, they barely had to get out of second gear.

I see that Finn is getting pelters (and fair enough), but from where we were sitting I wouldn't give pass marks to anybody, Darge aside. I have absolutely no idea what the game plan was, we just seemed to pass it wide to wide in the middle third of the pitch. Something seems to have gone seriously awry in these last two games, the players look low on confidence, the body language and effort is all wrong and we don't look like we know how we want to play.

Everybody in the camp should be looking very hard at themselves after that, including Toonie - he has made some really questionable decisions this tournament, and shouldn't be allowed to deflect his share of the blame.

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Post by bsando Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:40 am

Fair points broony, I agree with a lot of what you say. In terms of not hammering Townsend I just meant that he did eventually manufacture a game plan that combined with Tandys defence and playing in the right areas of the pitch allowed Scotland to dominate defensively and territorially. A really solid base to attack from even if the attack wasn’t great at times.

But as RDW points out the subs on Saturday were hardly equipped to enact the plan. Looking at that team it feels like a summer tour side, not a 6N home game against the form team of the tournament. That is 100% Toonies fault. Hastings could have been on the bench, so to Maitland or Jones. Not much we can do in the pack but Kebble was left out initially then dropped back in ahead of Dell and the Scarlets prop. Bit of a mess if you ask me.

Oh and Vellacott? The form 9 heading into the 6N. White has done very well with his chance but it was a bit of a curve ball selection initially.

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Post by BigGee Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:02 am

bsando wrote:Fair points broony, I agree with a lot of what you say. In terms of not hammering Townsend I just meant that he did eventually manufacture a game plan that combined with Tandys defence and playing in the right areas of the pitch allowed Scotland to dominate defensively and territorially. A really solid base to attack from even if the attack wasn’t great at times.

But as RDW points out the subs on Saturday were hardly equipped to enact the plan. Looking at that team it feels like a summer tour side, not a 6N home game against the form team of the tournament. That is 100% Toonies fault. Hastings could have been on the bench, so to Maitland or Jones. Not much we can do in the pack but Kebble was left out initially then dropped back in ahead of Dell and the Scarlets prop. Bit of a mess if you ask me.

Oh and Vellacott? The form 9 heading into the 6N. White has done very well with his chance but it was a bit of a curve ball selection initially.


I am not making excuses either, but Bennett came off the bench and did pretty well, one of the few standouts other than Darge, so am not sure Jones would have made any great difference.

White as well has had a pretty good tournament and has looked sharper than AP in most games, Vellacott has looked flashy good for Edinburgh when they were rolling over weaker teams earlier in the season, but his ability to manage a game is still very much in doubt and he has not looked quite so good against better opposition. I would actually like to see White start the next game, I think he deserves it.

It did have a slight feel of a summer tour team though, that is fair, but we were missing some pretty influential players to injury. We would have been a much stronger team had Fagerson, Gray, Ritchie, Watson, Cummings and Redpath all been available. Our depth is better than it ever has been , but we still don't have like for like replacements for some of those players.

We lost that game though, apart from France being a lot better than us, as our big named players, Price, Russell, Hogg and Harris (our Lions to all intents and purposes) really did not have great games. Maybe they are all having a bit of Lions hangovers, it has happened to other good players before.

Interestingly, ZF, who we have all been giving a bit of stick to, was in the team of the weekend at TH and I guess it has to be acknowledged that he did pretty well in holding the scrum up, especially against Cyril Baile, who is arguably the best LH in the world. If it were not for that one stupid penalty, we might have a different opinion of his game. Rory Darge was also in the team of the week and quite rightly.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:10 am

I don't think that side that finished looks too weak.

Change Kinghorn and Hodgson for Hastings and Cummings, it is a side that would potentially gets a look-in next year.

It is clear we missed the summer tour to build the confidence we needed in guys like Hodgson, Christie, White and Tuipolotu.

On a different note, it is amazing how quickly M Fagerson has become considered irreplaceable. Bradbury has struggled to convert his club form to international though he was okay against France. I don't think Aldritt dominated their match-up and Aldritt is arguably one of the top five at the position right now.

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Post by George Carlin Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:24 pm

We need to use the Italy game to see some new players and give the complacent stewards-of-the-bar in the current first choice XV the chance to see that they aren't unflushable.

Price got a serious bang on the head, incidentally, so he's certainly still in my good books.

Would absolutely love a completely different centre pairing above all. We've got such a lot of talent. And I never thought I would ever write those words down.
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Post by bsando Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:55 pm

I would also like to see White start Gee, Price is getting on a bit now anyway and having his experience to close out the match in Rome would be useful if things do go astray. If Harris is still recovering from his knock Bennett starting at 13 would be a great choice. He is an excellent player, perhaps lacking some of the star dust that Jones has exhibited at times but more in the vein of JD2. He was solid when he came on against France. A Lions hangover seems likely for some of the better Scotland players. Price doesn't look nearly as sharp with the boot compared to the Lions tour and Hogg has not been very good with his boot either (apart from distance).

There are a lot of ifs and buts concerning selections. At the end of the day France were much better. I think my 6N thoughts on selection are more in the "we should pick our most capped players" camp where as I feel most on here are keen to move on from some of those players and have more new faces involved. Darge and White are prime examples of how beneficial that can be. But I feel sore about Maitland being thrown on the old boys heap so nonchalantly. Considering how valuable Morné Steyn has been for SA I see a lot of value in retaining Maitland in the squad.

Scotland at the moment seems to equate to a very settled squad when all the players are available, but then a team in transition when several core players are injured.

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Post by jimbopip Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:12 pm

So mad
It would seem that Toonie has two options: play his strongest starting XV against Italy and then the same against Ireland, or "rest" some of our nailed on starters and look at other possible combinations.
This is trickier than it sounds. Three wins is not a bad tournament for us. Two wins is just about enough to keep Toonie in post. A loss to Italy could be the End Of Days. Going to Dublin on the back of three successive defeats is not a position we want to be in.

But....if he picks his strongest XV then fringe players have less time to gain experience and Toonie has less time to see how they cope under pressure.

Here's my XV
Front Row; Toonie should know everything he neds to about Shoey, Ragnar, Kebble, Nel, Sutherland, Turner, Rambo and Brown. So, who's left?
1. Dell/Bhatti (Sebastian if Bhatti is out)
2. Ashman/Cherry
3. Berghan and here's the thing; if Ragnar and Nel are out who is our fourth choice? Darcy Rae?
Second Row; same here, Gray, Cummings, GG, Skinner
4. Hodgson
5. McDonald/Sykes
Back row; we know it's probably Hamish-Fagerson- Mbawza
6. Haining/Christie
7. Darge
8. Bradbury
Half backs Dancer and Aldi need a rest. Probably in Hereford with the SAS for Dancer.
9. White/ Dobie/Steel?
10. Not Blarehorn, he isn't a 10 and if he runs riot against Italy we're stuck with him. Pick any two 10's who are on the fringes of the squad and see what they'll do. Thomson for me. Plus?
Centres
Jones, Bennett, Steyn, possibly give Tuipulotu another chance. Pick any two.
Back three
rest VDM, Hogg and ADHD, we know they're in the World Cup squad.
11. Ollie Smith
14. Titman
15. Blarehorn.
We can revert to our recognised best XV for Ireland and maybe one or two people might be better for the rest.

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Post by RDW Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:33 pm

I'd say we'd be at very high risk of losing to Italy Jimbo if that team was put out!

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Post by jimbopip Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:32 am

Agreed Flounder, but
(1) we are out of contention so what does it matter?
(2) what do we hope to get out of the next two matches? Morale boosting wins? Give experience to players?
(3) Based on our last two performances how confident are you that our firsts will win ?

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Post by Hazel Sapling Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:00 am

Well I appreciate the sentiment Jimbo, Dell has plenty of experience and Sebastian is a TH.

If we wanted to go experimental, it probably means 5 or 6 of the new guard. Something along the lines of

Bhatti/Kebble - Ashman - Berghan (Kebble/Schoeman - Turner - Sebastian)
Hodgson - Gilchrist (Skinner)
Christie/Bayliss - Bradbury - Darge (Watson)

Vellacott - Hastings (White - Kinghorn)
Johnson - Bennett (Tuipolotu)
VDM - Hogg - Steyn

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Post by RDW Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:44 am

jimbopip wrote:Agreed Flounder, but
(1) we are out of contention so what does it matter?
(2) what do we hope to get out of the next two matches? Morale boosting wins? Give experience to players?
(3) Based on our last two performances how confident are you that our firsts will win ?

1 - what's new, we still always put our strongest team out each game
.2 - a big win against Italy, showing progression against Ireland and that we have at least some clue of what we're doing
3 - very - we're a long way past Italy now, barring a minor disaster or red card

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Post by BigGee Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:51 am

RDW wrote:
jimbopip wrote:Agreed Flounder, but
(1) we are out of contention so what does it matter?
(2) what do we hope to get out of the next two matches? Morale boosting wins? Give experience to players?
(3) Based on our last two performances how confident are you that our firsts will win ?

1 - what's new, we still always put our strongest team out each game
.2 - a big win against Italy, showing progression against Ireland and that we have at least some clue of what we're doing
3 - very - we're a long way past Italy now, barring a minor disaster or red card

I have been in Rome the last two times we have played there. Neither was comfortable, 4 years ago, Italy deserved to win.

I am not sure as a team, especially with the last couple of performances, that we are yet comfortable putting away a team easily that we should beat comfortably. Italy know this and will always fancy this game as their upset of the season.

A few changes yes, a B team no. It won't do us any good at all getting beaten in this game.

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Post by jimbopip Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:54 am

I wouldn't quibble with that selection Hazel.
Mea Culpa, I find I'm often typing and juggling my grandkids. Sebastian may well be a TH, he may also be a cross dressing Ninja assassin for all we saw of him at Scotstoun, so I don't feel too guilty about that. I know Dell is no spring chicken so maybe he wasn't put there for experience but more to protect our LH choices. I'm fairly certain Bhatti is injured and that leaves us Shoey and Kebble for Dublin. If one gets a knock v Italy we can end up with Dell benching in Dublin...when did he last play for Scotland? A run out in Rome might not be a bad idea.
Similarly, GG will need to play in Dublin, I would rest him. That is rest as in wrap up in a tartan rug and give him a large Bovril and a copy of Five Go Mad In Dublin. Not rest as in sit on that step and think about your recent performances and don't get up until you're ready to put some effort in. Which may or may not need to be said to a smiley, cheeky and increasingly portly 10.

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Post by jimbopip Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:19 pm

Evening gentlepeeps, and tigertattie. I've just watched the Squidge Rugby breakdown of the France match. As ever it was well worth watching.
First point, recently Scotland have kicked between 13 &15% of their possession. Not in a random, don't know what to do way but in a move the opposition around and then strike way. (The victory over England last year was a masterclass of this ). Against France we kicked 3% of our possession. Bear in mind that Exeter, classic ball up the jumpers rugby, usually kick 10% of the time. However we actually started out kicking as normal but when we went two tries down the gameplan was abandoned with indecent haste.

chin Hmm last time the gameplan was ripped up was at half time in the 38 all draw at Twickers. Toonie was clear that the reason France stuffed us was the fact that the players didn't stick to the script. Basically, a good kicking game means the defence keep men back and this gives space in the middle of the field: no kicking game means evrything is run and the defence know what is coming and flood the10-13 space. Scotland ran everything and constantly got turned over. France are the best team in the world at scoring from turnovers.
I think Toonie and Dancer need some couples therapy as they are not singing from the same hymn sheet. Leaving haircut out and having no other 10 in the squad (no he isn't) looks more ludicrous than ever now.

Finally, I've said before that the Squidger uses jokes and nicknames from here: he now constantly refers to our utility back as King Blarehorn. I hope he enjoys these threads as much as we enjoy his videos. Hug

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Post by tigertattie Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:53 am

Can’t we get royalties from squidge for using our names?

Also squidge, please note that Magnus Bradbury’s nickname is “not as good an 8 as tattle was”

Kk thanks bye
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