England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

doctor_grey wrote:You guys sure about Arundell?  Hasn't he only played a handful of games?

I think it is more about the potential he has, his ceiling seems so high.

Of course there is always the chance that he won't fulfil that potential, or that he may spend large chunks of his career. It might be that we look back in five or six years and wonder what we were thinking, but he has such natural talent that if he carries on this arc he will be a very special player.

doctor_grey wrote:You guys sure about Arundell?  Hasn't he only played a handful of games?

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChallengeCup_/status/1523294553465180165?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1523294553465180165%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html1523294553465180165

Oh I'm sure he deserves a look at this summer alright.

I must have watched that 50 times now. That first stop and go is just magical.

So he beat a few subs, a second row and a prop....

Lol.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So he beat a few subs, a second row and a prop....

6 or 7 of them!

He doesn't actually look like he's that quick....more the others are going really slow!

GeordieFalcon wrote:So he beat a few subs, a second row and a prop....

I think the last three when he uses the footwork are the 9, 10 and wing.

The kid has some X factor ball in hand. Not sure he's ready for fullback at international level but on the wing he could definitely do a job, Malins struggled in the 6N and Nowell is again injured.

He's certainly got the pace for a winger. If Jones actually gives a run of games to some of the up and comers it's going to be a pretty stacked back 3. Just a while ago we all thought (apart from Sarge maybe!) that Stewart was our full back for the next 5 to 10 years, now...

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's certainly got the pace for a winger. If Jones actually  gives a run of games to some of the up and comers it's going to be a pretty stacked back 3. Just a while ago we all thought (apart from Sarge maybe!) that Stewart was our full back for the next 5 to 10 years, now...

That's cause Sgt is still carrying a torch for Hodge despite his defection to Chiefs. We have stacks of young fullbacks it seems; Steward the incumbent is just 21 and back up utility option many would dump on the scrap heap Furbank 25. Then there's Hodge, Freeman, Hendy, David and Arundell in various forms of development. Saints can't seem to stop producing fullbacks currently.

I've only suggested Steward needs to work on his defensive positioning and his pace (if he can).

In all seriousness, Steward didn't really have the best 6N after such a great AI. I don't think his position is exactly being threatened, but he needs to keep his standards high after such an impressive breakthrough. Maybe Jones can help him out a little and put some actually wingers on the wing.....or at least somebody with some gas.

I wouldn't be adverse to seeing Steward/May/Arundell line up.

Arundell is certainly showing that he's worth some attention from Eddie's team. That run showed a lot of maturity and a fair amount of gas.

Yes, he caught the early defenders flat footed, but you have to give him credit for seeing the possibility rather than just looking to clear, and for spotting a clear line through the first wave of defence. But the really clever stuff comes with the last 3 or 4 defenders - who've had time to react and are on intercept courses. What impressed me was how he managed to slam on the brakes, almost sitting back on his own heels, to make the defender miss and then turns the gas back on and does a similar, but less extreme, move to shake the last two defenders.

There's some real skill and reading of the game in that - and it's not often we see a kid who has that instinct coupled with serious pace from fullback. He may not be ready to take the 15 shirt just yet, but I'd hope he'll get called up to the training squad, and with the tendency for international sides to have a wing/fullback on at least one side of the pitch, there may be space for him sooner rather than later.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him in a match day 23 this summer.

He's the kind of player you want to have at hand to bring off the bench if you need to change a game.

Clearly the hype is strong at the moment with the performances over the last few weeks culminating in that try on Sunday. He'll have a bad performance or two at some point which may dampen things down, but overall he can do some stuff that most of the competition for those England places cant. That's what may see him capped pretty quickly.

Seen an article in the times about the global season moving a further step to reality. League tables based on rankings, 2 yearly final. Can't access it now though.

But as ever Walesonline have nabbed and summarised it:

'Rugby bosses will hold discussions later today over a proposed new tournament that could potentially have a radical impact on the international calendar.

Representatives from the Six Nations, Sanzaar (South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and Argentina Rugby) and World Rugby, will meet in Dublin to try and finally nail down the plans, which could potentially see the introduction of a new biennial north v south competition from 2026.

The concept is not a new one, with a previous attempt to form a Nations Championship failing, but we appear to be reaching decision time. Twelve nations would take part, with Wales, England, Scotland, Ireland, France and Italy joining South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Argentina, Fiji and Japan. It's believed that the emerging nations are in favour of the idea, and will likely sacrifice annual fixtures with tier one nations to launch a global second division in 2024. This would contain the likes of Georgia, Spain, Romania, Portugal, the Netherlands, Samoa, Tonga, Namibia, the United States and Canada, according to the Times.

Early indications suggest the competition would be held in even years, avoiding the World Cup and British & Irish Lions tours. The schedule would then reach a climax in late November with a grand final and promotion/relegation play-off.

Crucially, membership of the Six Nations would be unaffected.'

Ok I was having a little wind up before...he looks pretty special.  But I've seen Josh Hodge do similar things (not against Toulon on the competition before I get slated) and seen Malins perform wonders at 10 rhe next superstar 10...etc.

Let's see how he develops..hopefully he progresses as we would like

Steward is still my locked in 15 though...and it will take something special to move him.

Hodge when he got his chance in the Prem looked a little shaky, under performed in areas of contact and has then pretty much been starved of chances by Exeter. You'd think that he'll be learning tonnes under Baxter and players like Hogg but the flip side is that he'd have been starting more with Newcastle. Still looks a miles better player than Steward ball in hand though.

Arundell on the other hand did wonders for the U20s, and has now had a positive impact on his club side. Of course he may drop off, but the tries he's scored alongside the fact he qualifies for Scotland and Wales puts a different spin on it.

Wasn't Steward capped at about 19/20? If you're good enough you're old enough.

Josh should not have left Newcastle in all fairness..he would have got the actual gametime he needed.

But we've seen so many like these...even Christan Wade was scintillating but never made the England squad.

We shall see.

Bar the time Wade did, was class and linked up with Ben Morgan brilliantly. Then called up to the Lions as sacrifice to the last mid week game. Should really have been looked at again but every time he was seemingly close got an injury. Seen he's back in England possibly as of today, which club is he going to end up at? At 30 and with the youngsters (currently ignored) probably too far a punt for England but he'll be after Ashton's new record I would imagine.

Some players you just know will make it at international level if they don't get an injury; Arundell is one of them. It would be stupidity to not cap him and secure him for the near future even if he's not ready as of now (back to my original point).

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Wasn't Steward capped at about 19/20? If you're good enough you're old enough.

20, he only turned 21 in December.

In the interest of balance, Prem rugby have helpfully released limited selection of highlights in a (cringely titled) video.

Includes him blowing a try here, which along with his non tackle on Nadolo in the same game is probably his most noteworthy mistake.

https://youtu.be/WuGGm0a2z6A?t=15

Margin_Walker wrote:In the interest of balance, Prem rugby have helpfully released limited selection of highlights in a (cringely titled) video.

Includes him blowing a try here, which along with his non tackle on Nadolo in the same game is probably his most noteworthy mistake.

https://youtu.be/WuGGm0a2z6A?t=15

To be fair not tackling Nadolo at full tilt is probably a good way to extend your career.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:In the interest of balance, Prem rugby have helpfully released limited selection of highlights in a (cringely titled) video.

Includes him blowing a try here, which along with his non tackle on Nadolo in the same game is probably his most noteworthy mistake.

https://youtu.be/WuGGm0a2z6A?t=15

To be fair not tackling Nadolo at full tilt is probably a good way to extend your career.

Yeah, I'd happily buy whatever dummy he's selling.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:In the interest of balance, Prem rugby have helpfully released limited selection of highlights in a (cringely titled) video.

Includes him blowing a try here, which along with his non tackle on Nadolo in the same game is probably his most noteworthy mistake.

https://youtu.be/WuGGm0a2z6A?t=15

To be fair not tackling Nadolo at full tilt is probably a good way to extend your careerlife.

Fixed

More seriously, while the only thing I've seen of Arundell is this highlights film, it does show he has something special about him ball in hand. There's a couple of steps that are almost Jason Robinson-esque, and his pace is like Christian Cullen, in not looking all that fast but actually gliding away from some very quick covering players. Obviously as a very young and inexperienced player, there are flaws, but he looks a good candidate for either the 14 or 23 shirt at some point during the summer, especially if we don't have the likes of Watson, May and Nowell available for the squad. Would love to see a combination with the solid Steward at 15 and Radwan for pure gas at 11 - might not be the best defensively, but should have the potential to cause the opposition problems.

Does Eddie pick a full strength squad to tour Australia, go for a good result to get the supporters back onside after a pretty naff 6N?
Or does he throw caution to the wind, pick all the youngsters that we have been talking about (risk a tour from hell) but remove all the pressure on the players?

I would love the 2nd, but In reality it will be a blend of the 2 - potentially with some senior players rested or injured.

If we let Arundell go to another nation

Just watched the video above, 3/4 of the highlights were against Leicester!

It's the drawing of the man and passing that I'm enjoying seeing, Daly was very good at it for a while and it opened up our attack

The only thing against picking him is a small number of appearances. As with Redpath when we didn't cap him before he got another 5 or 6 and suddenly looked very much the part and we lost him to Scotland.

If as Geordie says he doesn't step up, loses form, loses confidence whatever what have we lost with taking him on tour (given 'apprentices' are regularly taken) and giving him 5 mins off the bench?

Watson and Ojomoh expected to be fit for Baths game against LI.

Expect both might be involved if they show full fitness.

36-man squad due to be announced today for a camp to begin preparations for the summer tour and Baabaas game.

Rumours are:

- Farrell to return but captaincy undecided
- Arundell and Will Joseph apparently set for callups
- Uncertainty over whether Youngs and Marler will be available to tour for personal reasons
- JvP being considered
- Manu, Watson and May all being viewed as options to tour Oz if fit
- Mako apparently being looked at again

I'd be happy with Mako being looked at again though I know others wont. His form for Sarries has largely been very good. I like Rodd as a player, particularly his breakdown work which our other props don't have, but still rate Mako higher.

Didn't realise it had come around as quickly. Overall if those were some of the changes then it would be positive. Vunipola is a good player and his scrummaging isn't an issue as much vs Australia and clearly very good around the park. He would add experience to what could be a callow front row. I would say taking 3 of each specialist is just good planning when you're going round the world but personally if Marler isn't free I would be tempted to go Genge, Rodd and Goodrick-Clarke. Going to be a very interesting squad.

Regardless who goes on the tour surely the touring squad should be the one that goes forward to next years 6ns and the RWC.

Why?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why?

it is time to stop chopping and changing players (except for injury) and get a settled side playing together. England should have a settled side by now under EJ a side/squad to play the best teams in the world ands pull off a result( a win) and olay alot better than theu did in this years 6ns.

Kpoku played really well at the weekend. Itoje-esque in his style. Literally the only time I've seen him play since he's moved there though so can't comment on his form. He was out injured for a few months at the start so just getting into his stride apparently. Him and Mercer may turn heads if there are a couple of injuries to key people next year.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kpoku played really well at the weekend. Itoje-esque in his style. Literally the only time I've seen him play since he's moved there though so can't comment on his form. He was out injured for a few months at the start so just getting into his stride apparently. Him and Mercer may turn heads if there are a couple of injuries to key people next year.

I agree, he looked quite abrasive/disruptive - He was struggling for game time at Sarries, but seems to be doing quite well after his move. I do hope he decides to come back to the prem in a few years and compete for international honours.
Same as Mercer.

The upcoming squad will be really interesting (shorn of all the play-off contenders, currently Tigers/Sarries/Quins/Saints - although could be Glouces).

propdavid_london wrote:The upcoming squad will be really interesting (shorn of all the play-off contenders, currently Tigers/Sarries/Quins/Saints - although could be Glouces).

Jones can pick from all 13 clubs as theres no English team in Europe according to the Guardian.

From the rfu

The squad will train in London as they begin preparations for next month’s home game against Barbarians and ahead of their tour to Australia in July.

Joe Cokanasiga, Owen Farrell, Manu Tuilagi, Anthony Watson and Jack Willis return to the squad following injury. Elsewhere there are first-time involvements for London Irish duo Henry Arundell and Will Joseph, along with Leicester Tigers’ Jack van Poortvliet. There are 10 uncapped players and seven with more than 50 caps, including a return for Mako Vunipola.

As the Gallagher Premiership season reaches its climax, Jones has chosen to rest some players for the training camp.

"We’re going to use this camp as an opportunity to prepare a base game for the Barbarians fixture and for a really important Australia tour," he said. "We’ll focus on how we want to play, how we want to be as a team off the field and continue to develop the squad cohesiveness and behaviours.

"It is also 16 months to the World Cup and every minute counts. We want a hard-working and enjoyable environment for the players and make sure we are all on the same page. We are allowed a squad of 36 players, so it has been a balancing act.  

"We want to take a look at some younger players and prepare a base camp for the Barbarians game, particularly as we will be without the Premiership finalists, and also give some senior players a rest as we get to a crucial part of the season. These players will still be in contention for the Australia tour."

England will host Barbarians at Twickenham Stadium on Sunday 19 June (3pm KO). Tickets are available for the game from £25 for adults and £12 for under 16s. The match is live on Amazon Prime Sport.

They will then travel to Australia to face the Wallabies in Perth (Saturday 2 July, 11.05am BST KO), Brisbane (Saturday 9 July, 11.05am BST KO) and Sydney (Saturday 16 July, 11.05am BST KO). All matches will be live on Sky Sports.

SQUADForwards

Alfie Barbeary (Wasps, uncapped)

Jamie Blamire

Ollie Chessum

Tom Curry

Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)

Alex Dombrandt

Charlie Ewels 

Ellis Genge 

Joe Heyes

Maro Itoje

Joe Launchbury

Courtney Lawes

Lewis Ludlam

George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped)

Bevan Rodd 

Will Stuart

Sam Underhill

Mako Vunipola

Jack Willis

Backs

Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped)

Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby, uncapped)

Joe Cokanasiga

Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

Owen Farrell

Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

George Furbank

Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped)

Louis Lynagh (Harlequins, uncapped)

Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)

Harry Randall

Marcus Smith

Freddie Steward

Manu Tuilagi

Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)

Anthony Watson

I'm sure there will be things that jump out as odd as I take it in (and more likely have it pointed out to me), but no Joe Marchant and no Daly have surprised me.

Good spot....only 3 centres in the squad?

4? Dingwall, Farrelll, Joseph, Tuilagi.

No Exeter players at all either.

Geordie McGuigan!! good lad!

I am sure that both will be dropped back into the touring squad when its announced 'this is an opportunity for Eddie to look at a lot of players in an 'England camp' that he hasnt seen before'.

No Sinkler too, although not been in great form.
Nice to see McGuigan in there.

I have no idea how Charlie Ewels is still in there.....

Nice to see Joe Launchbury back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:4? Dingwall, Farrelll, Joseph, Tuilagi.

No Exeter players at all either.

Unless Eddie wants to experiment with Cockanasinga in the middle.

Pretty relieved to see Arundell in there, hopefully he smashes the camp and settles the debate.

It's an exciting training squad, would have liked to see them look at Ojomoh and Tizard too though. It is a shame that Quirke and Kelly aren't fit either.

You'd think that some of the usual faces are definitely going to come back in when things get real though.

Seems a few players missing as their clubs have agreements with Eddie...ie Slade & Exeter ...

Cumbrian wrote:Pretty relieved to see Arundell in there, hopefully he smashes the camp and settles the debate.

Same for Lynagh

Yes im curious why Tizzard isnt in there...

Loosehead: - Ellis Genge - Mako Vunipola - Bevan Rodd

Hookers: - Jamie Blamire - George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped) - Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)

Tightheads: - Joe Heyes - Will Stuart

Locks: - Charlie Ewels - Maro Itoje - Joe Launchbury

Lock/Blindside: - Courtney Lawes - Ollie Chessum

Back Row: - Alfie Barbeary (Wasps, uncapped) - Tom Curry - Alex Dombrandt - Lewis Ludlam - Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped) - Sam Underhill - Jack Willis

Backs:

Scrum Halfs: - Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, uncapped) - Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 1 cap) - Harry Randall

Fly Halfs: - Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby, uncapped) - Marcus Smith - Owen Farrell

Centres: - Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped) - Fraser Dingwall - Manu Tuilagi

Back Three: - Louis Lynagh (Harlequins, uncapped) - Joe Cokanasiga - Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped) - George Furbank - Anthony Watson - Freddie Steward - Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped)

Good to see Eddie selecting a number of young guns and players back from injury. Makes sense to have a look at them rather than just call up the 6N squad again.

Nice to see McGuigan get some recognition and JVP get a look in.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kpoku played really well at the weekend. Itoje-esque in his style. Literally the only time I've seen him play since he's moved there though so can't comment on his form. He was out injured for a few months at the start so just getting into his stride apparently. Him and Mercer may turn heads if there are a couple of injuries to key people next year.

Yes nice to see Joel really starting to show his ability.
Didnt his brother Jonathan go to Coventry? Is he playing?