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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 20 Mar 2022, 2:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

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Post by RiscaGame Sun 19 Jun 2022, 6:30 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Did not see the game sounds like England had a real mare of a game. Did Care start or come off the bench?


Don’t you have Prime Madge?

You could still read match reports off Google mind. Plus you could’ve found the starting line up before today. If you cared that much about England, as you pretend to when trying to be clever on here, you might’ve at least known the starting 23.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 19 Jun 2022, 8:30 pm

Billy's always been a player that's looked better for a run of games. He's not like Lawes who seems to return from injury layoffs where he left off.

For Sarries this year Billy has clocked:

29 appearances, 28 starts, 2062 minutes played

He's been playing very well too. His final England appearances before being dropped were fairly dire by his standards but if there were a time to recall Billy it's probably now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jun 2022, 2:18 am

Assume that the squad will be tweaked agin today or tomorrow if Jones is waiting on scans for Dombrandt? Vunipola may be a bit of a doubt himself after that high hit on Saturday so may well be a case of Barbeary or Hill jumping up the pecking order. Of course we could see Curry back there and Lawes still at 6.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 20 Jun 2022, 5:04 am

I am sure I heard yesterday that the tour squad would be selected/announced this morning.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Jun 2022, 5:28 am

propdavid_london wrote:I am sure I heard yesterday that the tour squad would be selected/announced this morning.

That's right. Eddie and his inner circle were sitting down to do the selection meeting last night.

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Post by mountain man Mon 20 Jun 2022, 5:33 am

Well that was pretty dreadful from Eng. Smith aside from kicking from tee was really good I thought. Erm that's end of positives really.
Joe C had some moments and worth keeping in squad, Freeman was OK but nothing more and won't replace Steward at 15 on that showing.

How the f"£$ is Ewels still playing for England? He was mediocre at best in 6N and way off again yesterday. Atkinson has confirmed he's not an Int player. Randall, hmm not good. He was decent in 6N but yesterday looked off pace. Mitchell needs a go. I'd keep Care in squad for Aus as damage done by time he got on and at least in Test team Care, Smith and Dombrandt have an understanding. May looked to be trying too hard at times but at least he looked like he was bothered.
Scrum and line outs were terrible, really poor.
Even likes of Curry, Underhill looked jaded. Players looked tired and uninterested. Rest needed then reset for Aus tour.

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Post by MichaelT Mon 20 Jun 2022, 5:40 am

I hope Launchbury and Barbeary are involved. Also, dropping Itoje to the bench for the first game. Two of Chessum, Hill or Launchbury for the starting second row.

Think Itoje has been below his standards for a while now and would also send a message to the team (if one is needed under Jones) that any place is up for grabs.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jun 2022, 5:48 am

Launchbury apparently asked for the summer off, though I've not seen the quotes. Madness to drop our best lock though surely?! Hill has got away without much criticism from yesterday, personally I still think Ewels is better than him, but why Lawes is still being used as a blindside I don't know. Presumably it'll be one of those 11 or 1pm announcements then.


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Post by MichaelT Mon 20 Jun 2022, 5:54 am

I agree Itoje on form is the best lock, possibly even our best player, but I don't think he is in form. Didnt notice him too much in the final on Saturday, and the Ireland game apart thought he didn't do much in the Six Nations.

And cant agree that Ewels is better than Hill. I don't see that at all.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jun 2022, 5:59 am

A fair few don't but I was a touch surprised when Hill was called up and I've been non plussed since! Itoje off form is still better than the others on form. That said I didn't notice many from Saturday, the lack of adventure from both teams made my eyes glaze over.

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Post by MichaelT Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:09 am

FORWARDS

Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Joe Heyes
Jonny Hill
Nick Isiekwe
Maro Itoje
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
Bevan Rodd
Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Will Stuart
Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 61 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 67 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

BACKS

Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped) *apprentice player
Danny Care (Harlequins, 84 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell
Tommy Freeman
George Furbank
Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped) *apprentice player
Joe Marchant
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Harry Randall
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward

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Post by MichaelT Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:12 am

A general meh really. Ewels and Furbank. Arundell apprentice player. Billy Vunipola back - not sure on. van Poorvliet, Randall and Care. Who starts?

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Post by BamBam Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:14 am

Was Ben Youngs an expected omission?

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:19 am

BamBam wrote:Was Ben Youngs an expected omission?
I believe so

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Post by mountain man Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:21 am

Ewels and Furbank? FFS.
Of the others, Willis, Rodd, Schickerling, Walker - none of those did themselves any favours yesterday. Curry, Underhill, Hill, were also poor but long season and have at least proved they are worth place.
Randall but no Mitchell?
No place for Radwan either.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:25 am

Charlie Ewels

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:27 am

Seems odd to take 8 uncapped players on tour....many of them could have been given a run out yesterday too (unless injured).
Does anyone know if Barbeary is injured?

I agree with you mountain_man that its odd that Ewels and Furbank are still there.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:29 am

MichaelT wrote:A general meh really. Ewels and Furbank. Arundell apprentice player. Billy Vunipola back - not sure on. van Poorvliet, Randall and Care. Who starts?
Randall looked off the pace yesterday - not sure if its fitness or form! I think I remember people questioning his fitness in the 6N too.
There certainly seemed more energy when Care came on - which to me suggests that DC will go back to being that game changing role he used to have with Youngs.

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Post by MichaelT Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:36 am

Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Vunipola, Randall, Smith, May, Farrell, Marchant, Cokanasiga, Steward

LCD, Vunipola, Heyes, Chessum, Willis, Care, Furbank, Nowell

3-0 to Australia, including one heavy loss. Hope I am wrong.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:37 am

It's a bit of a mixed bag of a squad. I'm pleased to see certain players there, but disappointed with a few omissions.

I'm guessing Furbank is there to cover 10 and 15? Will probably no.23 in the match day squads. I reckon with all of the youth an inexperience, it should be fairly easy to predict the majority of the team Eddie will put out. Something like:

01. Genge
02. Cowan-Dickie
03. Stuart
04. Itoje
05. Isiekwe/ Hill
06. Lawes
07. Curry
08. Vunipola

09. Randall
10. Smith

11. May
12. Farrell
13. Marchant
14. Nowell
15. Steward


Of course Eddie being Eddie we could also have a back-row entirely comprised of 7s and a back-three populated exclusively by full backs.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:38 am

I'd have had a few different people on the plane, particularly Mitchell and Hassell-Collins but pretty much fine with that squad.

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:38 am

WHY IS EWELS GOING???!!!

Australia by whitewash unless something special happens...

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:40 am

MichaelT wrote:Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Vunipola, Randall, Smith, May, Farrell, Marchant, Cokanasiga, Steward

LCD, Vunipola, Heyes, Chessum, Willis, Care, Furbank, Nowell

3-0 to Australia, including one heavy loss. Hope I am wrong.

I'm more optimistic, I think there is a good team hiding in there somewhere. Given it is down under you would make Aus favourites, but I don't think we'll get whitewashed.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:43 am

My stab at the side for the 1st test (not what I think EJ will do)

Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Will Stuart
Courtney Lawes
Maro Itoje
Tom Curry
Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola

Jack VP
Marcus Smith
Jonny May
Owen Farrell
Joe Marchant
Joe Cockanasinga
Freddie Stuart

Bench - Mako V, LCD, Joe Heyes, Jonny Hill, Lewis Ludlam, Danny Care, Jack Nowell

Nowell because he covers back 3 and centre
Would like to have an Arundell in there but think its a big risk, having said that I have selected Jack VP to start at 9.....I'm just quite disillusioned by Randall's performances to date.
Eddie may well start DC.

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Post by mountain man Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:50 am

Cumbrian wrote:
MichaelT wrote:Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Vunipola, Randall, Smith, May, Farrell, Marchant, Cokanasiga, Steward

LCD, Vunipola, Heyes, Chessum, Willis, Care, Furbank, Nowell

3-0 to Australia, including one heavy loss. Hope I am wrong.

I'm more optimistic, I think there is a good team hiding in there somewhere.  Given it is down under you would make Aus favourites, but I don't think we'll get whitewashed.


Agree with you Cumbrian.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:51 am

It's a decent squad with a few awful picks.

It just doesn't get me buzzing...but if they get it right they could be efficient enough.

But they'll have to up their game quite a way form yesterday's effort.

Why play someone like Atkinson yesterday if he wasn't touring...or was that his last audition and he fluffed his lines.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 20 Jun 2022, 6:58 am

I don't see a whitewash.

England were awful yesterday but even just adding the new players will mean we won't be that bad again.

But Eddie needs to stop messing about saying he's trying things etc and just get them gelling and playing properly now.

And tell Seibolt to sort that horrendous defence out.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Jun 2022, 7:12 am

1.Genge 2.LCD 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Hill 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.Randall 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Freeman 15.Steward

16.George 17.Vunipola 18.Heyes 19.Chessum 20.Underhill 21.Care 22.Dingwall 23.Nowell

In theory there are the bones of a 23 I quite like the look of. I can't say I'm feeling optimistic it will suddenly click at the moment though.

The midfield has too often looked toothless recently so I like that trust has been placed in younger centres with good attacking capacity. Dingwall, Porter and Joseph fit that bracket for me.

I'm very excited to see Heyes get game time. Obviously there's a Tigers bias but he looks the real deal to me and already a better player than Stuart with a ceiling to keep improving.

Most important aspect will be the Smith-Farrell axis. It seems the new structure is built with those two playmakers in mind. If it still looks awful with them then I'll be pretty worried.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Jun 2022, 7:18 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:And tell Seibolt to sort that horrendous defence out.

I've not watched the Baabaas game but from the score line can obviously see the defence must have been dire.

The defence has largely still been good even when the attack has been abysmal though in fairness. They've done that with a lot of injuries so changing personnel too.

For me the defence seems to be making sense with how it's evolved over 7 years. We had Gustard employ a very aggressive blitz. Then Mitchell moved to a hybrid system with an aggressive blitz around the fringes and a more passive drift wider out - more reminiscent of Tandy's bend don't break approach out wide. Under Seibold we seem to switch between the two depending on field position and game scenario. I think that's a good place to be.

Attack is obviously the huge concern.

We could also do with the lineout defence improving enormously though as our maul defence has suffered most since Kruis left. Kruis and Itoje were a brilliant defensive partnership in the lineout.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 20 Jun 2022, 7:38 am

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:And tell Seibolt to sort that horrendous defence out.

I've not watched the Baabaas game but from the score line can obviously see the defence must have been dire.

The defence has largely still been good even when the attack has been abysmal though in fairness. They've done that with a lot of injuries so changing personnel too.


Actually, the bigger problem was precision in attack - the Baabaas scored at least 3 tries direct from interceptions, plus a generous penalty try for a deliberate knock on.
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Post by hugehandoff Mon 20 Jun 2022, 7:48 am

I really don’t understand the exclusion of Launchbury. Is he injured or just out of favour?

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Post by Poorfour Mon 20 Jun 2022, 8:00 am

England Rugby wrote:Unavailable for selection due to injury: Alex Dombrandt, George Ford, Joe Launchbury, Louis Lynagh, Sam Simmonds, Kyle Sinckler, Henry Slade, Manu Tuilagi, Nic Dolly and Anthony Watson.
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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 20 Jun 2022, 8:07 am

hugehandoff wrote:I really don’t understand the exclusion of Launchbury. Is he injured or just out of favour?
Injured. By contrast, Marler, Daly and Malins are apparently available, but have not been selected.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 20 Jun 2022, 8:20 am

Marler's almost certainly not available. He's fit, but wouldn't be up for being away from his family for that long and I believe he's told Eddie he doesn't want to tour.
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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 20 Jun 2022, 9:16 am

Poorfour wrote:Marler's almost certainly not available. He's fit, but wouldn't be up for being away from his family for that long and I believe he's told Eddie he doesn't want to tour.

That's what I thought, but the Telegraph report says "Eddie Jones confirms Marler was overlooked". The journalists attending the press conference seem to think Jones just decided not to select him. Maybe we'll find out there's more nuance to the position, refelcting the latitude Marler has had in the past.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/06/20/england-squad-announcement-live-team-news-australia-eddie-jones/

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Post by majesticimperialman Mon 20 Jun 2022, 9:39 am

It does not seem like a bad team on paper.
But Charlie Ewels? Why is he still getting selected?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 20 Jun 2022, 9:49 am

I try not to get too reactionary to a Ba's game but that was pretty dire....we couldn't protect our ball and looked worse in the aspects we were supposed to look better in! (Set piece etc). Few positives were Care back and Freeman looked a threat at the back, he could turn into genuine competition for Steward over time.

The squad......how Furbank and Ewels continue to get selected is anyones guess, both are massively average and should be nowhere near an England squad. Lock is indeed a worry and looks pretty poor past Itoje tbh.

Disappointed with the continued reluctance to select Barbeary....this was his chance really.

I'd take a stab at...

Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Will Stuart
Maro Itoje
Jonny Hill
Courtney Lawes
Tom Curry
Billy Vunipola

Danny Care
Marcus Smith
Jonny May
Owen Farrell
Joe Marchant
Joe Cockanasinga
Freddie Steward

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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Jun 2022, 10:11 am

hugehandoff wrote:I really don’t understand the exclusion of Launchbury. Is he injured or just out of favour?

I've been a massive Launchbury fan forever. I have felt he's been hampered by the injuries though. Even when fit and I've seen him for Wasps I've frequently thought he's not quite the same player in the loose.

As a lock who isn't a strong lineout jumper that is an issue. His maul work is absolutely fantastic so he offers something on defensive lineouts but he is a weak link on your own throw against good counter jumpers. His breakdown work, carrying and offloading used to more than make up for it. It pains me to say but I'm not sure those strengths are as prominent anymore.

I'd definitely pick Launchbury ahead of Ewels but it would be a very close call for me between Launchbury and Isiekwe now. That's with me being far from convinced by Isiekwe at international level thus far as well despite him being a player I've championed from club form. Back when Isiekwe was going out on loan before Tigers upturn I was desperate for Tigers get nab him, would have even been happy with him getting offered the captaincy I rate him so highly from his Sarries performances at times!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Jun 2022, 11:08 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I try not to get too reactionary to a Ba's game but that was pretty dire....we couldn't protect our ball and looked worse in the aspects we were supposed to look better in! (Set piece etc). Few positives were Care back and Freeman looked a threat at the back, he could turn into genuine competition for Steward over time.

The squad......how Furbank and Ewels continue to get selected is anyones guess, both are massively average and should be nowhere near an England squad. Lock is indeed a worry and looks pretty poor past Itoje tbh.

Disappointed with the continued reluctance to select Barbeary....this was his chance really.

I'd take a stab at...

Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Will Stuart
Maro Itoje
Jonny Hill
Courtney Lawes
Tom Curry
Billy Vunipola

Danny Care
Marcus Smith
Jonny May
Owen Farrell
Joe Marchant
Joe Cockanasinga
Freddie Steward

I think if find place for Freeman at wing over Cokanasiga though, Freeman has scored a lot of tries for Saints off the wing and played well Vs the Baabaas. I'm not sold on Danny Care after the Baabaas horror show but then again I rate Randall even less and don't think JVP is quite polished enough for international rugby. I suspect Eddie will start Randall and have Care on hand as per the Baabaas game.

Genge, George, Stuart
Itoje, Hill
Curry, Billy, Lawes
Randall, Smith
Farrell, Marchant
May, Steward, Freeman

Bench something like LCD, Rodd, Heyes, Chessum, Willis, Care, Porter/Dingwall, Cokanasiga

I think Eddie might be tempted for Nowell over Cokanasiga or May though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jun 2022, 11:21 am

I am slightly worried about the prospect of lining up with Lawes and Vunipola again. Very slow.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 20 Jun 2022, 11:27 am

I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing Care/Smith line up at Int level, hopefully they'll both live up to the expectations.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Jun 2022, 11:31 am

7.5 - I know you hate Lawes at 6, I can kind of understand the breakdown view, though I do wonder if given England have conceded some high penalty counts recently we want to be contesting breakdowns more, but some other criticisms I've seen you give seem pretty odd at times.

Is he really 'slow' compared to competing flanker options such as Willis and Underhill for instance? I'd say he's a better carrier than both, he's fantastic in cover defence due to how well he covers ground, leads the line speed in fringe defence alongside Curry and is as good on kick chase as any of our forwards other than Curry, Underhill and Ludlam. I wouldn't say any of that really screams slow?

If we want to compete breakdowns weighing the risk of giving away penalties against the gain of turnover ball to attack with then Underhill or Willis are obviously far better breakdown threats than Lawes. That's the only real issue I can see with Lawes at blindside though. Given our maul defence isn't what it was I'd much rather we actually competed the breakdown less, gave away fewer penalties anyway. The defensive line tends to be very good at reorganising quickly when defending across multiple phases. I'd personally rather we backed that strength than competed for the riskier turnovers.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Jun 2022, 11:38 am

king_carlos wrote:7.5 - I know you hate Lawes at 6, I can kind of understand the breakdown view, though I do wonder if given England have conceded some high penalty counts recently we want to be contesting breakdowns more, but some other criticisms I've seen you give seem pretty odd at times.

Is he really 'slow' compared to competing flanker options such as Willis and Underhill for instance? I'd say he's a better carrier than both, he's fantastic in cover defence due to how well he covers ground, leads the line speed in fringe defence alongside Curry and is as good on kick chase as any of our forwards other than Curry, Underhill and Ludlam. I wouldn't say any of that really screams slow?

If we want to compete breakdowns weighing the risk of giving away penalties against the gain of turnover ball to attack with then Underhill or Willis are obviously far better breakdown threats than Lawes. That's the only real issue I can see with Lawes at blindside though. Given our maul defence isn't what it was I'd much rather we actually competed the breakdown less, gave away fewer penalties anyway. The defensive line tends to be very good at reorganising quickly when defending across multiple phases. I'd personally rather we backed that strength than competed for the riskier turnovers.

Yes he is slow in regards to getting to the breakdown. Always seems to arrive that second too late and that tends to cost you against the best jacklers. I'm not overly considering attacking the breakdown, Willis though has no peers there. Whether it's out and out speed or just knowing where to be is an arguable point. I don't think it's really worked when they've lined up together in the past. I really don't want to see Lawes at flanker though, no matter whether it's Vunipola at 8 or not, but I think that accentuates what I consider the main flaw.

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Post by dummy_half Mon 20 Jun 2022, 11:45 am

I think Lawes is a decent international 6 and a good second row. The question is though which combination is better:
Itoje-Lawes
Curry- Vunipola-Willis/ Underhill

or
Itoje-Isiekwe/Ewels
Lawes-Vunipola-Curry

The first is probably better in the loose, but lacks a good third jumping option and may be a bit weaker in the scrum.

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Post by Yoda Mon 20 Jun 2022, 12:39 pm

I think we have bigger problems to solve than whether Lawes plays at 6 or 5. I will take a decent defence first, can't see us winning a game this summer as confidence must be shot. Should have grabbed kruis yesterday and persuaded him to stay and push Ewels out of the squad. The lads need to stay out of the gym and practice passing and catching. Perhaps throw in a bit of footwork before contact and we would have already made massive strides from yesterday.

Will be watching from behind the sofa in two weeks time!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 20 Jun 2022, 1:43 pm

I can see Chessum pushing himself up the ranks this tour. He's a class act.

Why was Tizzard not looked at? Too early? Surely he's been playing well enough to warrant selection over Ewells

Noticed Malins is not selected either?

I also think Jones should have been looking at Lozowski

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 20 Jun 2022, 1:46 pm

dummy_half wrote:I think Lawes is a decent international 6 and a good second row. The question is though which combination is better:
Itoje-Lawes
Curry- Vunipola-Willis/ Underhill

or
Itoje-Isiekwe/Ewels
Lawes-Vunipola-Curry

The first is probably better in the loose, but lacks a good third jumping option and may be a bit weaker in the scrum.

4 Chessum
5 Itoje
6 Lawes
7 Willis
8 Billy V

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Post by cb Mon 20 Jun 2022, 1:49 pm

England were pretty awful overall but they did give away two poor interceptions, knocked the ball on or missed the pass countless times and lost at least three line-outs in very promising positions.  If they could have stopped most of that they might even have won.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Jun 2022, 2:52 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Noticed Malins is not selected either?

I also think Jones should have been looking at Lozowski

Malins got dropped for Furbank at the end of the Six Nations so perhaps not a surprise. He deserves inclusion over Furbank as fullback but really isn't an international wing. I'd definitely pick Freeman ahead of him as a winger, think he's maybe got more potential than Malins as a fullback as well.

Lozowski has been getting left out the starting XV for Daly by Sarries recently.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 20 Jun 2022, 3:59 pm

If England hadnt won v NZ in the semis Jones surely would have been sacked already.

Also I think the English press are afraid of him. They never give him a proper grilling over the poor results. There is a lot riding on the hope that its all part of the RWC master plan. Maybe Squidge is right and its all part of the plan.

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