Dragons RFC - new name, new season: 2022/23

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New name, bit of a rebrand…..but same old Dragons? Hopefully not!

Player movements:

Players In:

Bradley Roberts from Ireland Ulster
JJ Hanrahan from France Clermont
Rhodri Jones from Wales Ospreys
Sean Lonsdale from England Exeter Chiefs
Max Clark from England Bath
George Nott from England London Irish
Sio Tomkinson from New Zealand Highlanders
Angus O'Brien from Wales Scarlets
Lewis Jones from Wales Cardiff
Rob Evans from Wales Scarlets


Players Out:

Taylor Davies returned to Wales Scarlets
Dan Babos released
Mesake Doge released
Tom Griffiths released
Jordan Olowofela returned to England Leicester Tigers
Max Williams released
Josh Lewis to Wales Merthyr
Jonah Holmes to England Ealing Trailfinders
Dan Baker to Wales Aberavon
Owen Jenkins to Wales Wales Sevens
Will Talbot-Davies to England Coventry
Greg Bateman retired
Joe Maksymiw to France Agen
Evan Lloyd to Wales Ebbw Vale
Carrick McDonough to Wales Ebbw Vale
Adam Warren to Wales Llandovery
Harry Fry to England Hartpury University

Some decent signings there, on paper. And lots of players leaving who were not that good. But also losing a couple of decent ones in Doge and Holmes.

Fingers crossed for a few more wins this season

Dragons still lost a lot under Turner, not a bad move but not good either; but it looks like desperation, or Dai is on borrowed time.

I'll be honest I genuinely thought Dai had a real chance to free some budget up and get a better squad for next season. Some of the re-signings though have made me question Dai's ability to be hard nosed in the transfer market.

At this point I suspect he will re-sign Brown as well.

Only Dyer I would have kept on and I would probably have started to dump a lot of other players as well. He is a good coach but I seriously question his ability in the transfer market.

To be honest all the regions are afflicted by this. There seem to be a lot of loyalty based signings instead of actually getting players who have a track record of performing in the league.

I'm starting to think it would be better if head coaches at the regions dont actually get involved in assembling the squads like they do in the NFL where a general manager deals with the transfer side of the game.

Yeah we’ve probably got some of the worst locks in the league. I wouldn’t have re-signed Screech and used that money elsewhere. Brown and Griffiths would be gone too if I had my way.

How limited are we by quotas, etc? I genuinely don’t know what we’re allowed these days. But is it just that we can’t look outside Wales much and so just have to pick what’s available in Wales? And being the least popular region we get the scraps really.

We’re also hamstrung by the sh*t show that is Welsh rugby. I mean, who in their right mind would want to come here with all of the negative press, stories about the WRU, the infighting amongst clubs and the community game, the ‘goldfish bowl’, rumours of regions being cut or merged, etc. Only desperate players or unproven ones who are hoping to make it as a pro!

The 3rd issue is with Dai Flan himself. He seems like a great guy but players will often sign for not just the money but to work under a big name coach. No offence to him, but he’s not going to be a big draw having achieved relatively little as a player (sorry!) or now as a coach. We got a few medium to semi-big (I won’t call them marquee!) signings under Dean Ryan probably because he was a bit of a name in rugby. Much easier for him to sell a potential signing a vision than Dai who many might not have heard much of. So this is one big benefit of splashing the cash on a big name coach. And maybe get the raw young Welsh coaches like Dai to learn underneath them. Maybe that’s the idea behind bringing Turner in. I know he’s not a massive name, but he perhaps has more pedigree, experience and clout in the transfer market than Dai?

Not sure about quota's, I don't believe there are any and Cardiff just signed an England player from Glaws. Funny signing, another back-row hybrid to go alongside superstars Seb Davies and Josh Turnbull - do they have a clue?

We're all a bit hamstrung, other regions seem to be making strides. You've got Ospreys nailing the re-signings although they're losing North but that's probably something they could deal with. Cardiff also continue to nail down all their young players. Don't know about Scarlets, just know they're losing their best players. Dragons haven't been amazing with it and we're still persisting with dross players from 2-5 in our next fixture - only up at the place where we shipped 70 points!

Dai was a signing ahead of itself, if that makes sense. He had some experience as backs coach for a pro team but probably not enough to be head coach somewhere. He has some good qualities, signing decent players does not appear to be one of them.

We’ve announced two re-signings, and are due to announce a few more. So far is Harri Ackerman and Joe Westwood - I think both are decent from what I’ve seen and they’re from our academy, good to bring on our own. It’s also good to have a tall centre like Westy, he’s not quite Dai Flan’s preferred height of 6’6 though.

Dai also spoke about stuff going on behind the scenes, I wonder if he was referring to the re-signings or new signings. Dragons need some new players, that’s common knowledge. I’m not sold on Reed and Hughes at 10 and 12. Sio could be let go though, and Clarke will likely stay with Cardiff on a permanent deal.

I know these re-signings are academy, but 3/4 are pretty good news. I wasn’t overly familiar with Lloyd, as I don’t really keep tabs on Pooler, but I do like the other three. Che Hope was certainly worth more appearances than Lewis Jones and has been playing very well in the Prem. I would expect him to get more appearances next year.

Can we assume Gonzalo and Lewis Jones (hopefully) are off? The Argie hasn't been good value either tbh. If not then Dai appears to be stockpiling 9's again? Just waiting for some back-row to be signed now then.

A lot of the youngsters being resigned I don't have a problem with. For me Morgan, Che & Blacker should be the 9's we invest into next season.

I do find it perplexing that a lot of the Welsh sides think having good props will fix the set piece issue. Looking at Kitschoff at Ulster this season I suspect the key to a good scrum is how much power and weight you have in those second rows. It's why I think Cardiff, Scarlets and Dragons have issues.

We do need good props though but some bruiser second rows is what we need if we want to be competitive.

Our backline with ball I think can cause issues if we sort our centres out but what always holds us back is the lack of power in our tight 5. We probably need a Llewellyn type of 12 with a real pacey 13 option.

But honestly if Dragons are competitive we need 4 good props (2xLH 2xTH) as most of them can only do about 40-50 mins. WE probably need at least 2 bruiser locks. And in the backrow we need at least 2 ball carrying options.

So 10 players would probably turn us into quite a good team. I'd sacrifice 20 squad players to get them and dip into academy to fill the spaces. We seem to have a lot of guys who are not up to this level of rugby and most of those guys should be at the peak of their game by now.

But I've not a lot of faith in Dai to actually get us any of the 10 signings we actually need....

I would agree with all of that WM, especially the bit about Dai. Scarlets are actually looking to make numerous signings in their front 5, two locks incoming and some props from the Lions linked there - the wrong side of 30 but they're still a significant step up on what they have. I am happy with the academy guys staying, and I think we're expecting Gonzalo and Lewis Jones to be off. We also need to offload Griffiths and Brown. It's quite concerning that there is no mention of other signings, just that we're hoping to keep Basham. Basham is a great player but I don't think I would mind if he left, I'd like to see a similar back-row to the one we played against Bulls, with Wainwright at 8.

Cardiff will still have issues in the front 5 over the next few seasons. They believe Seb Davies, Teddy Williams and Turnbull are good players. That couldn't be further from the truth. They're a team with good potential, so it's a shame to see it wasted.

The sad thing is there are players at club level I think we could get with the promise of first team rugby and exposure on TV within the URC to help their profiles even if they end up going after 2 seasons. I'd rather us pick out players who will do a job for us. It does probably mean we would be shopping at Academies and Pro D2 but there is a lot of potential out there not getting pro level exposure. I also think given the URC has reduced fixtures is a major plus point for player development as people are not getting flogged for 30 games a year. Should help us with players in France.

Can we afford to match Pro D2 wages though? The reason a number of Welsh players have left Wales for the the French 2nd tier is because they’re getting better wages than being offered here. Plus the weather is nice But mostly it’s for the salary.

I’m all for bringing in overseas players. Not too many. But I’m not against it like some who feel it’s just blocking homegrown talent. Especially if we stay at 4 sides, which we will for at least the next 5 years (barring anyone going bust). If we only had 2 sides I’d perhaps be a bit more against it. But with 4 there’s still plenty of space to develop Welsh players for Wales. And good overseas players will rub off on our own. It’s just affording the good ones that’s the issue.

I agree about the 2nd row issue. Unfortunately it’s the one position that is largely due to genetics. I.e. you can’t coach height! If we’re not producing 6’10” rugby players then the clubs need to look elsewhere. All other things like strength, power, speed, etc can be coached/conditioned to a certain extent. But not height. And we just don’t seem to be able to produce those big 2nd row lads in sufficient numbers.

Coaching is a massive thing too. I’ve mentioned it a number of times. I always think, would the Dragons do better, get better results, finish higher up the table, if Joe Schmidt (or insert another top coaching name) was with us for 2 seasons. I think most would agree that yes we would do better. So it’s not necessarily the players. Better players would of course improve us too. But the coaching has got to be top class too. I remember watching Sio Tompkinson at RP in a pre season friendly vs Bristol. Might have been his first game with us. He was electric. Great feet, nice offloads…..I thought ‘yes! This is what we’ve been missing!’. And then in no time at all he’s turned to mush and isn’t getting picked. It happens with so many players that we sign. How do good players turn crap like they do with us? And look at those that leave. Lots go off and surprise everyone by doing really well elsewhere. Look at Sam Davies out in France. So there’s something wrong behind the scenes - whether coaching, facilities or structure, etc. Not sure. But I think we’d see a much better Dragons team if they focused on that side of things a bit more.

Also, just seen that Jack Dixon has retired with immediate effect. So another off the wage bill. Not the best of players, only something like 12 tries in all that time with the Dragons, but seemed like a good guy.

We can't match ProD2 wages because all of them (maybe except their bottom team) have a salary cap greater than £4.5M. Provence have double that I think. Big signings can only would only work if we utilise the marquee allowance, and a money-man is willing to part with all his money.

Tomkinson did go to mush a bit, but I think he is injured a lot now? I still think he's better than Owen and Hughes. Hughes is a terrible defender IMO, whilst both are too slow. You need at least one centre who is big, or explosive like Kieran Williams or Sione Tuipulotu. Dai Flan said Owen and Woodman are our best players though, I'm not sure who he could be mistaking them with? Either way, not a good sign that the head coach thinks that. I agree there isn't much point in seeking out signings unless we got decent enough coaches.

I'm not suggesting we get the big name players to fill these gaps.....but there are diamonds to be found in most leagues that are not on the biggest of wages. It's those potential fringe players I would love to see us target. We can't realistically target top end names for sure but there are squad players out there who potentially would even take a cut in wages if it improved their exposure and profile as it would lead to bigger wages later on.

Reckon we have about 10-12 guys in the 29-32 bracket that could probably be cut loose at this point.

Welshmushroom wrote:I'm not suggesting we get the big name players to fill these gaps.....but there are diamonds to be found in most leagues that are not on the biggest of wages.  It's those potential fringe players I would love to see us target.  We can't realistically target top end names for sure but there are squad players out there who potentially would even take a cut in wages if it improved their exposure and profile as it would lead to bigger wages later on.

Reckon we have about 10-12 guys in the 29-32 bracket that could probably be cut loose at this point.

I don't disagree but would like to see us try both. We aren't going to get Eben Etzebeth or others in that Rugby A list to play for us, but there are many other South African locks playing around the world and not in contention for the Boks, and most I've seen are almost as good as Etzebeth because they're ridiculously good at producing forwards. The Bulls third choice for example would be a good steal, because from what we've seen they're still good. If any Welsh team wants to improve they need to be looking at squad players like those. And yes I still think a few should be cut loose.

I dont think it will get any easier either with SA sides getting a big boost to their salary caps next season. Sharks already recruiting like nobody's business.

The thought of Esterhuizen playing alongside Am will create nightmares for other centres in the URC next season. Even their pack is massive if they do retain all the other stars they already have.

I will say of Plumtree doesn't get that side in the top 4 he really has no excuses.....

So thats another team at the foot of the table who will no doubt leap ahead of us miles before the season kicks off.

Dai seems to put a lot of stock in the old welsh "tried and tested formula" Personally if things stay the same our seasons wont get any better. Given his budget and the fact everyone expects us at the bottom of the table should afford him to start getting radical with his transfer moves. But as I said before I think instead of overhauling he has placed a lot of loyalty with the players.

I would love it if we did offload Brown and Basham. Both of those are no doubt on big wages and I wouldnt have either of them starting in the URC if I was picking the team.

Basham's form has been patchy at best this season, but I believe it's a loss we can cope with. It would be easier if we had kept Fry... but we have Wainwright and Keddie to play at both 7 and 8. I thought the choice of pack (aside from useless Coleman) against Bulls was a somewhat radical idea and it's what enabled us to compete up front even if it was just temporary. It's not clear if and why Scarlets have made Basham a priority signing. It would make a lot of sense to find Boyde again. Dan Davis is meh for me, Josh McLeod very good but struggling with injury and perhaps set for an early retirement - along with a few others in Wales.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Also, just seen that Jack Dixon has retired with immediate effect. So another off the wage bill. Not the best of players, only something like 12 tries in all that time with the Dragons, but seemed like a good guy.

I was a bit sad by this, but he was only a solid club level player. Probably just because how long he has been around for. I was surprised to see he had only scored 12 tries though.

Also Bertranou has been announced as going to Cardiff on loan, which means he probably has played his last game for us.

Bertranou is another good example of what I talked about above. How can a player who is a current international for Argentina, 50 odd caps, 6 tries at intensional level, etc. hardly get a sniff for us? Are we not using him right? Is our game plan just too poor for someone of his quality to shine? Not scored a try for us in 29 appearances according to Wiki.

Bet he goes to Cardiff and becomes a standout performer. I’m telling you….its the coaching!

I would never have thought that Bertranou hadn't scored for us. Madness.

I think Sam Davies went a bit gash for us, as we put too much pressure on him. He needed to be taken out of the firing line for a while and we didn't do that.

But Dragons do have poor coaches. Mefin Davies has regressed our forwards overall (in my opinion) and none of the others are really names. In an ideal world, Flanagan would be with us as an attack coach. I don't overly rate the coaches from the academy either. We haven't got anybody that makes me think could command a serious job somewhere else.

Buttress has a lot of work on his hands, but seems more concerned with constantly tweeting about Everton FC or taking on other jobs/roles.

I’ve always felt that we were/are a development region in all but name. From the fact we were funded differently (although that has changed now). But also the way we seem to get the coaches who are cutting their teeth. It’s like we’re the development ground for aspiring coaches. As you say, when looking at the coaches they’re not exactly bursting with experience or success. As said by us all many times, Dai Flan seems like a lovely guy. He’s passionate (shouldn’t they all be anyway?). But I struggle to see how you can land a job as head coach of a pro team in Wales without big and successful assistant coach jobs beforehand. He was at Scarlets and skills/backs coach and then Newport High with the Dragons academy. That’s not enough for me. To land a regional top job, one of only 4 such roles in the whole of the country, I think you need demonstrable success beforehand. I know Dragons is a hard sell but we should still be targeting those coaches who have been in and around successful teams, winning silverware, perhaps as assistants within that setup looking to make the step up to head coach, but preferably the head coach themselves. Picking skills/assistant coaches from sides who have won nothing and expecting them to turn a failing team into a winning one is just daft. Unless of course the aim is just to develop their coaching experience (which it shouldn’t be).

I’ve got to say the coaching ticket is poorer than I thought - just looked on the Dragons website and our coaches are listed as:

Dai Flanagan Head coach
Luke Narrway forwards coach
Mefin Davies forwards coach
Matt O’Brien backs coach (Matt who is also outside half for Newport RFC so this will be a part time role).

That’s it! That doesn’t scream a pro set up either in terms of experience or coaching success. And then we wonder why we struggle to compete with teams with the likes of Graham Rowntree as head coach, Franco Smith, Jacques Nienaber (not even head coach!), Jake White, John Plumtree, etc.

Yeah, that's about it. Sam Hobbs has been doing bits too. It's really bad.

I suspect you may be right. I think its a problem across the regions. You can tell the experience difference between say Toby Booth at the Ospreys and all the other regions. And his main attribute is experience.

I've always said it starts with the top guy. Invest there and work your way down into the coaching team/physios. Then worry about your playing squad. Players will come and go. If regions were smart they would recruit coaches and medical staff on a more long term view. But only those that are actually qualified at that level to do their jobs.

The coaching raft at Dragons isn't good. A good start would be to get full time coaches in each position, you know like a defence coach... I have no doubt better coaches could make the whole squad a bit better. There are still players here and there that come to us and turn sour, it's not every player, but it does happen too often and has happened at the other regions as well.

Basham is staying. He’s signed a multi year deal.

I don't think they've announced the deal length? Chris Kirwan seems to think this suggests a one year extension.

Yes I just saw that. I’m a bit surprised to be honest. I thought he’d want away. Maybe it was only Scarlets as a realistic option in the end if he wanted to be eligible for Wales, and maybe they cooled their interest a bit with their financial issues?

I still rate him. I think he’s perhaps suffering from 2nd (or 3rd??) season syndrome?! He had a great season last year or the year before. But a few injuries and a few silly cards have really impacted him I feel. He’s on the abrasive/feisty side (compared to someone like Reffell who seems quite a clean player in that position) and wouldn’t want him to lose that but he needs to keep it from boiling over and costing his team . There’s a fine line and I think he’s overstepped it a bit and is maybe now seen as a bit of a loose cannon and a liability at times.

They didn’t announce the length, I read “multi-year” deal but I could have got it confused with the Dyer and Wainwright deals. I think we could have coped if he moved on, but happy he’s staying.

Just read that Scarlets have agreed a 1 year extension for Sam Lousi. Big for the Scarlets that. Maybe why they didn’t get Basham, money wise?

Very good for Scarlets that.

I read murmurings elsewhere of Lousi and Fifita having a change of heart, wasn't sure how accurate it was. Great news that Lousi is staying, he is a quality player. Fifita I imagine is still off, and Scarlets probably want to spend that 400K per year elsewhere.

I think there is a bit of realization by the players that the market in wales and england have both rebalanced in most cases to the same levels.

I'm not sure Lousi will be a good resigning. But he will be better than what they already have and good locks will probably not head there so it's the best of a bad situation. Surprised Peel is only looking at 1 prop option in each position. The URC has shown this year without 4 good props to put in your 23, you have no chance of winning games. Realistically he needs at least 2 tightheads. Without that they won't have the basic platform to compete.

Basham im on the fence on. Is it a good resigning if he is on say 150K, probably. But I suspect we are paying more than that by a distance and I wouldnt be paying that for him.

England have more money, more clubs and bigger squads. They are still ahead. The model (I think we are aspiring to have similar) does have limitations, IE the money men will run off and the club will collapse, we've seen that in Wales before though. The upshot for the rest of their clubs is that they now have greater depth. Newcastle still getting pillaged.

Not sure what you are watching, but every time Lousi plays he is MOTM - it's just Costelow can often get it as a novelty. They were looking at a few front-row players, at least 4 props. I think they might sign just half of them and have already signed Hepburn. Holz is apparently a no-go, failed fitness, so it's likely one of the Lions props coming in. I agree that Welsh teams especially need that additional depth in the front 5, it's especially true when you see how strong the SA teams are even without their top players.

In other news, I read that Scott Andrews is Cardiff's scrum coach

No Lousi when he plays is good. But Injuries have kept him off the park a fair bit this season. He's only played 6 games for the Scarlets and only one of those has been a 80 min game.

Granted this just could be a one off season but given his age profile and his position stats in his position tend to suggest locks end up playing less games. At the moment they need their key players available for most of their games to be available.

As I said though stats are not the be all and end all and he may be a good re-signing. There's no doubt he was a quality for the Scarlets and has done a brilliant servant to the club to date.

English clubs do have more money across the board but not at as much as players in Wales think they have. Part of the budgets some of the English clubs have available for next season came England players moving to France. But in terms of the real offers that become available the assumption they can make more in England has been put to bed in a lot of cases not least because English clubs will not specifically target welsh players only. They can sign players from anywhere so it's not a given they will offer contracts in the first place and if they do they can negotiate those valuations based on what is available on the market elsewhere.

Don't forget that he English clubs have had a salary cap of £5m for the last season or two, and while it is allowed to rise to £6.4m for the 2024/35 season, the clubs have been urged to abandon the idea. Either way, they've not got a great deal more than the Welsh regions (although they have ways around it I'm sure )

On a side note - whats your take on the reduced games in the URC Mikey? Do you think players are getting enough rugby in a season now?

Our player stats of the top most played (includes national and barbarians games including the world cup)

23 games - Wainwright
22 games - Dyer
16 games - Blacker, Reed, Hughes,
15 games - Lonsdale, Rhodri Jones, Cai Evans
A fair few at 14 games but a lot of them have played less than 10.

My question is are players getting enough games in a season to help team performances? I don't think the player welfare in the URC is an issue as most teams seem to have similar stats now. I just wonder if lack of regular games is also affecting player development and performances....

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Don't forget that he English clubs have had a salary cap of £5m for the last season or two, and while it is allowed to rise to £6.4m for the 2024/35 season, the clubs have been urged to abandon the idea.  Either way, they've not got a great deal more than the Welsh regions (although they have ways around it I'm sure )

They do but from what I've seen with the Welsh Salary Cap - they are allowed 2 players outside of next seasons 4.5 million cap. But nothing has specified on how much they can spend on those 2 players. I know English clubs get marquee players too but thought that was or will be reduced to just one. So the 4.5 million welsh cap next season is probably fairly close to 5 million once you add back the exempt players

Welshmushroom wrote:On a side note - whats your take on the reduced games in the URC Mikey?  Do you think players are getting enough rugby in a season now?

Our player stats of the top most played (includes national and barbarians games including the world cup)

23 games - Wainwright
22 games - Dyer
16 games - Blacker, Reed, Hughes,
15 games - Lonsdale, Rhodri Jones, Cai Evans
A fair few at 14 games but a lot of them have played less than 10.

My question is are players getting enough games in a season to help team performances?  I don't think the player welfare in the URC is an issue as most teams seem to have similar stats now.  I just wonder if lack of regular games is also affecting player development and performances....

This is where we need a strong and meaningful 2nd tier so that fringe players (some of the above players) can get game time without it being pointless. In reality, I'm not in a position to know what he gap is but I've read a lot that the step down to Welsh Prem is too big a gulf and so therefore sending our pros there for game time will do little for their development. Will make them poorer, some say. But if the EDC is stronger then could we see it used to give much needed game time to those who often sub or are just squad players?

The problem with pro rugby is that you need a squad big enough to cope with maybe 30% of the players being injured at any one time. But then if there are few injuries then that's a lot of players not being played, as you will want to put your best players out if available. The stats above seem to support that. The internationals are playing the most as they are in demand for both Wales and the region. The 2nd choice players are not playing much. So a system where they can get meaningful games would really help. I'm not sure if the EDC is set up to do this though?

On a side note - does the stat for Reed, for example, take into account any game time for Newport this season? I'm sure he's featured from them.

No this only accounts for pro games.  Also didn't include pre season friendlies.  

Also there are another 5 rounds of URC so this numbers will no doubt move.  What was interesting though the stats seemed to suggest even looking through other URC teams that aside from international players there are not many guys who will even play 20 games this year.  It's probably safe to say player welfare at least has improved.  

I just wonder if part of the reason our player development gets hampered is because some guys are not getting enough game time at that level.  Dyer has come on a lot for example and no doubt talent plays a part but I am wondering because he is playing more if that is in fact improving him as a player and we are potentially undercooking guys at a Pro level.  Not just at the Dragons as this is a common theme in the league.  

Makes for really interesting read when you look at the top 14 where some of those guys are playing a lot more rugby.   I think playing about 20 games a season looks about the right amount.  I just notice with the amount of rotation teams are doing in the URC if that is hurting some players in the process.

Also was a World Cup year so there had been a few more international matches than a normal year. So Wainwright & Dyers numbers should come down in 3 out of 4 years.

Welshmushroom wrote:On a side note - whats your take on the reduced games in the URC Mikey?  Do you think players are getting enough rugby in a season now?

Our player stats of the top most played (includes national and barbarians games including the world cup)

23 games - Wainwright
22 games - Dyer
16 games - Blacker, Reed, Hughes,
15 games - Lonsdale, Rhodri Jones, Cai Evans
A fair few at 14 games but a lot of them have played less than 10.

My question is are players getting enough games in a season to help team performances?  I don't think the player welfare in the URC is an issue as most teams seem to have similar stats now.  I just wonder if lack of regular games is also affecting player development and performances....

Some players are getting enough rugby, I guess. Some of ours do not appear to be - like the ones you've alluded to but I can't remember how that compares with previous seasons. If we got to the KO stages of competitions more often then I guess we'd be playing more.

Some players seem like they play a lot more often, where-as some will be less - like some of the top Irish players.

Looking at the 22/23 season our stats looked like this at the end - appearances include bench appearances as well so usually the starting numbers are and full 80 mins games are a lot lower. Includes any international or pro appearances for barbarians etc:-

Seiuli - Played 17 games
Coleman - Played 20 games
Brown - Played 5 games
Fairbrother - Played 9 games
Yeandle - Played 2 games
R. Jones - Played 16 games
Roberts - Played 21 games
Dee - Played 12 games
Benjamin - Played 5 games
Carter - Played 17 games
Nott - Played 13 games
J. Davies - Played 13 games
Screech - Played 14 games
Lonsdale - played 20 games
Wainwright - played 20 games
Lydiate - played 11 games
Young - played 1 game
Keddie - played 9 games
Griffiths - played 3 games
Basham - played 16 games
Blacker - played 16 games
L. Jones - played 20 games
R. Williams - played 19 games
O'Brien - played 15 games
C. Evans - played 7 games
Reed - played 13 games
Owen - played 5 games
Tomkinson - played 15 games
S. Hughes - played 18 games
Hewitt - played 14 games
Baldwin - played 5 games (played for Scarlets)
J. Rosser - played 10 games
Dyer - played 22 games
Richards - played 2 games
J. Williams - played 18 games


These were just the stats of the players still on the roster this year. Didnt include any players that left last summer. While the game amounts seem fairly high I was surprised how many of those games actually are pretty low when you consider 80 min games that players started - a lot of these numbers are inflated by games played off the bench.

Looking at those you would have to say URC pro's across the board have it pretty good these days in terms of welfare. I do wonder though if playing less than 20 actually hampers players form/development?

Looking at the details for the guys who played more than 15 in 22/23 a bit further:-

Seiuli - Played 17 games - Started 10 games - 779 mins played - no 80 min games
Coleman - Played 20 games - Started 8 games - 772 mins played - no 80 min games
R. Jones - Played 16 games - Started 10 games - 727 mins played - no 80 min games
Roberts - Played 21 games - Started 14 games - 1034 mins played - 1x 80 min game
Carter - Played 17 games - Started 13 games - 1075 mins played - 11x 80 min games
Lonsdale - played 20 games - Started 13 games - 1081 mins played - 8x 80 min games
Wainwright - played 20 games - Started 13 games - 1171 mins played - 7x 80 min games
Basham - played 16 games - Started 12 games - 968 mins played - 8x 80 min games
Blacker - played 16 games - Started 7 games - 538 mins played - no 80 min games
L. Jones - played 20 games - Started 6 games - 528 mins played - no 80 min games
R. Williams - played 19 games - Started 16 games - 1166 mins played - 4x 80 min games
O'Brien - played 15 games - Started 15 games - 1086 mins played - 11x 80 min games
Tomkinson - played 15 games - Started 14 games - 999 mins played - 8x 80 min games
S. Hughes - played 18 games - Started 14 games - 1197 mins played - 12x 80 min games
Dyer - played 22 games - Started 22 games - 1722 mins played - 19x 80 min games
J. Williams - played 18 games - Started 11 games - 984 mins played - 8x 80 min games

Aside from Dyer who really is getting flogged most of the mins played seem very managed. Was expecting to see props not get any 80 mins games but the some of these numbers surprised me.

Welshmushroom wrote:Looking at those you would have to say URC pro's across the board have it pretty good these days in terms of welfare.  I do wonder though if playing less than 20 actually hampers players form/development?

Perhaps. How does that compare with the English Premiership? They seem to be pretty good at developing young players. Guys like Daf Jenkins went over at age 19 and effectively became a starter.

What also amazes me with some of the stats is how much game time Coleman has, wow. I’d like to see us give more opportunities to Yendle, and I’ve read that Arhip might be here next season too.

Well I can have a look at Exeter as an example but keep in mind last year they played 20 games in the Premiership so had a couple more fixtures. This year will be more comparable once the season has finished as we play similar amounts of games this year.

22/23 games for exeter - note does include internationals, barbarians, Premiership Cup games as well, not included in the stats was anyone who was part of that years squad who left last summer - as they lost big names i imagine they played a lot of mins for Exeter so may not properly reflect how often first teamers were used.

HEPBURN 15 games, 9 starts, 654 mins, No 80 min games
KEAST 1 game, 0 starts, 30 mins, No 80 min games
SOUTHWORTH 8 games, 2 starts, 258 mins, No 80 min games
PAINTER 10 games, 6 starts, 379 mins, No 80 min games
RICHARDSON 1 game, 1 start, 80 mins, 1x 80 min game
MORRIS None
IOSEFA-SCOTT 23 games, 6 starts, 740 mins, 1 x 80 min game
STREET 11 games, 8 starts, 535 mins, No 80 min games
JOHNSON 2 games, no starts, 0 mins, No 80 min games
ABULADZE 13 games, 6 starts, 513 mins, 1x 80 min game
SCHICKERLING 17 games, 2 starts, 464 mins, No 80 min games
SIO 20 games, 16 starts, 1066 mins, No 80 min games
FROST 20 games, 7 starts, 655 mins, No 80 min games
HARRIS 2 games, no starts, 67 mins, No 80 min games
Jack INNARD 17 games, 12 starts, 823 mins, 1x 80 min game
Jack YEANDLE 23 games, 10 starts, 940 mins, No 80 min games
Max NOREY 2 games, 0 starts, 20 mins, no 80 min games
Cory TEAGUE 3 games, 1 start, 117 mins, no 80 min games
Dafydd JENKINS 23 games, 17 starts, 1351 mins, 9x 80 min games
Eoin O'CONNOR 1 game, 1 start, 50 mins, no 80 min games
Jack DUNNE 23 games, 14 starts, 1135 mins, 7x 80 min games
Jonny GRAY 24 games, 19 starts, 1489 mins, 12x 80 min games
Lewis PEARSON 8 games, 7 starts, 532 mins, 5x 80 min games
Matt POSTLETHWAITE 5 games, 4 starts, 293 mins, 1x 80 min game
Aidon DAVIS 14 games, 5 starts, 631 mins, 3x 80 min games
Christ TSHIUNZA 26 games, 23 starts, 1764 mins, 16x 80 min games
Ethan ROOTS 16 games, 14 starts, 964 mins, 7x 80 min games
Jacques VERMEULEN 12 games, 12 starts, 842 mins, 8x 80 min games
Richard CAPSTICK 5 games, 4 starts, 361 mins, 4x 80 min game
Ross VINTCENT 1 game, 1 start, 80 mins, 1x 80 min game
Rusi TUIMA 8 games, 5 starts, 444mins, 4x 80 min games
Joe SNOW none
Niall ARMSTRONG none
Sam MAUNDER 20 games, 12 starts, 918 mins, 1x 80 min game
TOWNSEND 8 games, 5 starts, 332 mins, no 80 min games
Harvey SKINNER 21 games, 13 starts, 1088 mins, 8x 80 min games
Will HAYDON-WOOD 11 games, 5 starts, 423 mins, 1x 80 min game
Henry SLADE 25 games, 21 starts, 1686 mins, 16x 80 min games
Joe HAWKINS 16 games, 9 starts, 833 mins, 7x 80 min games
Ollie DEVOTO 3 games, 1 start, 167 mins, no 80 min games
Rory O'LOUGHLIN 21 games, 12 starts, 1037 mins, 8x 80 min games
WYATT 10 games, 9 starts, 722 mins, 6x 80 min games
RIGG none
WOODBURN 26 games, 26 starts, 1929 mins, 21x 80 min games
JOHN 8 games, 6 starts, 540 mins, 6x 80 min games
HODGE 18 games, 15 starts, 1213 mins, 12x 80 min games