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BKT United Rugby Championship 2022/23 - news and views

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Post by Pot Hale Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Things building nicely for the start of the new season, first of the pre-season games underway getting ready for kick-off in Round 1 on Friday 16 Sept with Benetton at home facing Glasgow.  

Welsh region Cardiff Rugby take on Munster at their Arms Park HQ hoping to make a better start to their season with new recruits Toby Faletau and Thomas Young returning from the Premiership, two raw receipts from Dragons, multi-capped international, Liam Williams moves across from Scarlets, and the hefty Tongan backrower, Lopeti Tomani, comes in from Toulon.

Zebre have Leinster at home, and 3 derbies with Scarlets v Ospreys, Lions and Bulls,  and Ulster v Connacht.  Edinburgh and Dragons finish out the round.

All teams have recruited across the off-season so should be interesting to see how those pan out.

The Italian, South African, American and Irish unions have organised a mini-comp for development players during Oct, courtesy of the SA franchise Cheetahs.   With the squads likely to be filled with academy and upcoming youngsters, initial concerns about them impacting the URC senior squads have been ill-founded.

By the time we get to Round 6 before test players depart to prepare for Nov internationals, there should be a good picture of how teams are faring in the league this season and where they might finish.

Oh and a new 3-year deal for title sponsor for the URC has been announced - BKT - a global brand in tyre manufacturing - who knew? The title applies globally except in South Africa who have an on-going deal with Vodacom currently.

The blurb reads: "BKT’s sponsorships first started in the USA where its tires equip the iconic giant trucks of Monster Jam in all their incredible shows. Today its wide range of sponsorships include Rugby World Cup France 2023, cricket’s IPL (India) and the Big Bash League (Australia), European football leagues; La Liga (Spain), Serie BKT (Italy) and Ligue 2 (France) and also basketball’s Euroleague."

Roll on the Autumn.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I actually think, that it is quite amusing how this has gone from being a pipe dream, and people being deluded, to it now being actual mainstream news and spoken about by the media.

Despite what some people say Welsh rugby can offer a lot to the English game. There is more appetite in Wales for an Anglo/Welsh league than what we currently have. It would bring a breath of fresh air to the English game, and the Welsh supporters would travel because they would not need to book a flight/boat and hotel and have to take days off work to watch their teams play in England, which if we are to be honest is a massive stumbling block for the support of the league. We do not see any away fans.
This is a fallacy and an argument that I constantly see with super league fans when they are discussing having teams like Toronto, Catalans and Toulouse teams in the top division at the expense of English sides. This is an argument for small time sports teams desperate for any extra cash they can get. I mean you're literally talking about a couple of hundred away fans at each game at the absolute max, and I'm sure I'm being generous there. We barely see any away fans for regional derby games outside of maybe the games at Christmas, so I don't see where all these travelling fans are coming from.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:23 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I actually think, that it is quite amusing how this has gone from being a pipe dream, and people being deluded, to it now being actual mainstream news and spoken about by the media.

Despite what some people say Welsh rugby can offer a lot to the English game. There is more appetite in Wales for an Anglo/Welsh league than what we currently have. It would bring a breath of fresh air to the English game, and the Welsh supporters would travel because they would not need to book a flight/boat and hotel and have to take days off work to watch their teams play in England, which if we are to be honest is a massive stumbling block for the support of the league. We do not see any away fans.
This is a fallacy and an argument that I constantly see with super league fans when they are discussing having teams like Toronto, Catalans and Toulouse teams in the top division at the expense of English sides. This is an argument for small time sports teams desperate for any extra cash they can get. I mean you're literally talking about a couple of hundred away fans at each game at the absolute max, and I'm sure I'm being generous there. We barely see any away fans for regional derby games outside of maybe the games at Christmas, so I don't see where all these travelling fans are coming from.

What a load of rubbish. Ask any fan of a team in a competent league whether they want to add a few away games in Africa for a bit more cash. They'll tell you where to stuff it.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:25 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I actually think, that it is quite amusing how this has gone from being a pipe dream, and people being deluded, to it now being actual mainstream news and spoken about by the media.

Despite what some people say Welsh rugby can offer a lot to the English game. There is more appetite in Wales for an Anglo/Welsh league than what we currently have. It would bring a breath of fresh air to the English game, and the Welsh supporters would travel because they would not need to book a flight/boat and hotel and have to take days off work to watch their teams play in England, which if we are to be honest is a massive stumbling block for the support of the league. We do not see any away fans.
This is a fallacy and an argument that I constantly see with super league fans when they are discussing having teams like Toronto, Catalans and Toulouse teams in the top division at the expense of English sides. This is an argument for small time sports teams desperate for any extra cash they can get. I mean you're literally talking about a couple of hundred away fans at each game at the absolute max, and I'm sure I'm being generous there. We barely see any away fans for regional derby games outside of maybe the games at Christmas, so I don't see where all these travelling fans are coming from.

What a load of rubbish. Ask any fan of a team in a competent league whether they want to add a few away games in Africa for a bit more cash. They'll tell you where to stuff it.
There is only one competent league in the whole of rugby and that's the Top14, a league with very few away fans...

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Post by RugbyFan100 Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:34 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I actually think, that it is quite amusing how this has gone from being a pipe dream, and people being deluded, to it now being actual mainstream news and spoken about by the media.

Despite what some people say Welsh rugby can offer a lot to the English game. There is more appetite in Wales for an Anglo/Welsh league than what we currently have. It would bring a breath of fresh air to the English game, and the Welsh supporters would travel because they would not need to book a flight/boat and hotel and have to take days off work to watch their teams play in England, which if we are to be honest is a massive stumbling block for the support of the league. We do not see any away fans.
This is a fallacy and an argument that I constantly see with super league fans when they are discussing having teams like Toronto, Catalans and Toulouse teams in the top division at the expense of English sides. This is an argument for small time sports teams desperate for any extra cash they can get. I mean you're literally talking about a couple of hundred away fans at each game at the absolute max, and I'm sure I'm being generous there. We barely see any away fans for regional derby games outside of maybe the games at Christmas, so I don't see where all these travelling fans are coming from.

What a load of rubbish. Ask any fan of a team in a competent league whether they want to add a few away games in Africa for a bit more cash. They'll tell you where to stuff it.
There is only one competent league in the whole of rugby and that's the Top14, a league with very few away fans...

Vast distances, huge country. Away days are what fans live for if you've been brought up with them.

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Post by Kingshu Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:35 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Kingshu wrote:

Can't see the RFU being happy that they pay a large sum, which includes player release, to the Premiership, but the WRU get the same player release for free? Can't see the premiership allowing Welsh players to be released without a fee, or else Cardiff and Scarlets would face fines, same as other premiership teams would face.

What are you talking about? The WRU also pay fees to the Welsh clubs for player release.

You seem extremely confused. The premiership clubs would be fined for releasing players to another country. If England played an out of window test, the players from the premeirship would play ion it.

Yes they pay Welsh clubs for player release, but if two teams were in the premiership they would have to pay the premiership instead. If Wales played out of window test, or wanted players for longer training camps, its the premiership decides if the players can be released, not the clubs. So the WRU would have to pay the premiership for this release, and if they did I'd assume they wouldnt pay the two Welsh clubs for it, as they wouldn't pay twice for the same thing. If a Welsh team released players without the premiership authorisation then the premiership would fine them, just the same they would an English Club in the premiership.

PLC would want the same amount per team as the RFU pay which is £2.3 million a year per team currently, so £4.6 million to the premiership to have player access as well as meeting the Welsh qualified players target and academy standards. Of course the two regions would get there share of this, but it doesn't really appear to be a bargain for the WRU and I very much doubt they would pay it.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:39 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I actually think, that it is quite amusing how this has gone from being a pipe dream, and people being deluded, to it now being actual mainstream news and spoken about by the media.

Despite what some people say Welsh rugby can offer a lot to the English game. There is more appetite in Wales for an Anglo/Welsh league than what we currently have. It would bring a breath of fresh air to the English game, and the Welsh supporters would travel because they would not need to book a flight/boat and hotel and have to take days off work to watch their teams play in England, which if we are to be honest is a massive stumbling block for the support of the league. We do not see any away fans.
This is a fallacy and an argument that I constantly see with super league fans when they are discussing having teams like Toronto, Catalans and Toulouse teams in the top division at the expense of English sides. This is an argument for small time sports teams desperate for any extra cash they can get. I mean you're literally talking about a couple of hundred away fans at each game at the absolute max, and I'm sure I'm being generous there. We barely see any away fans for regional derby games outside of maybe the games at Christmas, so I don't see where all these travelling fans are coming from.

What a load of rubbish. Ask any fan of a team in a competent league whether they want to add a few away games in Africa for a bit more cash. They'll tell you where to stuff it.
There is only one competent league in the whole of rugby and that's the Top14, a league with very few away fans...

Vast distances, huge country. Away days are what fans live for if you've been brought up with them.
You do realise that every team bar the two in Paris are in the south of France? Away days are what the very few die hard supporters that club rugby has, live for yes.

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Post by Brendan Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:26 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote: Also not sure the Welsh teams could survive on the same union funding as the PRL teams do.

You'll have to walk me through this. What is the breakdown of each?

If the WRU says the 80% wage rule only applies to URC teams how compeditive would teams like Cardiff even be or financially viable.  Yes they a private owned but not majority private funded.

How do you think the 3 Welsh teams are 'funded' ?

Scarlets chairman Simon Muderack in April 2021 following the heavy defeat to Sale was asked about internationals not showing up performance wise.  He talked about how even tjough 80% of players wages for the 38 elite squad in Wales was covered by the WRU they weren't always value for money. That season Scarlets had 14 players in the elite squad.  Do you think Sarries or Tigers had 14 players who had 80% of the wages paid for by the RFU rather than the owner.

The 2018/19 accounts for Scarlets had £9.6m from the WRU of which £3m was for TV and competition income leaving £6.6m which covered the then dual contracts that only covered 60% of wages.  I am happy for you to give the most recent breakdown of WRU funding to Scarlets.

Amazing, you think £6.6m was funding for dual contracts? It is payment for services. How many times? It includes competition money from league and Europe that the scarlets are owed, it includes money for adhering to non welh quotas, it incluides payment for player release and it includes a whole other range of performanced based formula payments THAT THE SCARLETS ARE OWED.

Do you think PRL clubs are ok with that.  The Welsh team would bring in no extra TV income as the current TV deals for the Prem cover the entire UK.

They'd bring in similar to what they'd bring the URC. s4c etc.

The 60cap rule would also have to apply to the Premiership not just the 4 Welsh teams, PRL not as kind as URC.  I am sure plenty owners have issues with this rule already.

Why?
 
Would the WRU be happy to pay their money into the PRL and then distribute it to all teams who meet the requirements.

Why would they have to do that? You're just making things up.

Did you miss the part where for the 2018/19 season Scarlets got 9.6m from the WRU. 3m was for TV money and competition money leaving 6.6m from the WRU to Scarlets for something else. That 6.6m is more than any English club got from the RFU which is what I was asked to show.

If Wuss were getting 6.6m from the RFU plus the TV and competition money aswell I doubt they would be in trouble.

SC4 would not have any TV rights as BT hold the rights to the UK and they give one game a week to a FTA channel that overs the whole of the UK. Why would the PRL do any deal with a Welsh only channel.

URC doesn't care how teams are funded the PRL do. If we take Scarlets as an example the WRU would not be able to just put money into the private owned team like the URC. The WRU and PRL would agree terms for access to all Welsh players in the league and pay the PRL. The PRL would then manage the rules and given each team their cut. This would result in some of the West English teams keeping their Welsh stars subsidies by the WRU. Good news is the Regions can get paid to have English players.

PRL is not URC. Again people still haven't explained how a Welsh team can play in the Prem without the WRU approval, and WRU isn't going to give up the access they have to their players at said team because they only want to spend on Welsh teams not PRL teams.

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Post by Kingshu Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:00 pm

https://rugby365.com/tournaments/united-rugby-championship/news-united-rugby-championship/nigel-owens-headlines-new-urc-appointments/

The URC Independent Referee Selectors Panel will include Nigel Owens (Wales), Goerge Clancy (Ireland), Stuart Berry (South Africa) and Neil Paterson (Scotland).

The panel have been appointed to review the performances of match officials in the competition, while they also have the responsibility of selecting an elite group of referees.

Henning revealed that former Scotland hooker Steven Scott has been added as a set-piece analyst.

Scott will have the responsibility of reviewing the scrums and line-outs, which Henning pinpointed as two of the major officiating problem areas.

Henning also conceded that referees and TMOs will be appointed in pairs, in an effort to create synergy between the two individuals and limit the referral stoppages.



All very interesting and is exactly what was wished for.

Yet another stick thats been used to hit the league with has been removed.



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Post by Irish Londoner Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:02 am

LordDowlais wrote:I actually think, that it is quite amusing how this has gone from being a pipe dream, and people being deluded, to it now being actual mainstream news and spoken about by the media.

Despite what some people say Welsh rugby can offer a lot to the English game. There is more appetite in Wales for an Anglo/Welsh league than what we currently have. It would bring a breath of fresh air to the English game, and the Welsh supporters would travel because they would not need to book a flight/boat and hotel and have to take days off work to watch their teams play in England, which if we are to be honest is a massive stumbling block for the support of the league. We do not see any away fans.

So when the Welsh clubs play English clubs in the European competitions is there a massive increase in attendance at the games - which would show a demand from Welsh fans to see English teams - equally is there evidence that Welsh fans will make the journey to England for away games - maybe Bath/Bristol but what about beyond that.

More to the point is there a large increase at English grounds when they play Welsh teams to show the demand from English club fans to see more games against the Welsh sides?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:30 am

Kingshu wrote:

Yes they pay Welsh clubs for player release, but if two teams were in the premiership they would have to pay the premiership instead.

If Wales played out of window test, or wanted players for longer training camps, its the premiership decides if the players can be released, not the clubs. So the WRU would have to pay the premiership for this release, and if they did I'd assume they wouldnt pay the two Welsh clubs for it, as they wouldn't pay twice for the same thing. If a Welsh team released players without the premiership authorisation then the premiership would fine them, just the same they would an English Club in the premiership.

Assume is the key word here. The WRU don't pay the URC any money currently if they want to play an out of window test. They pay the Welsh clubs.

As I've already said - if England RFU plays an out of test window, do they give a load of money to the Premeirship? The answer is no. So you've assumed wrongly.

PLC would want the same amount per team as the RFU pay which is £2.3 million a year per team currently, so £4.6 million to the premiership to have player access as well as meeting the Welsh qualified players target and academy standards. Of course the two regions would get there share of this, but it doesn't really appear to be a bargain for the WRU and I very much doubt they would pay it.

Don't really know what that means sorry. What is PLC? Clubs in competitions can adhere to different regulations from their individual governing bodies. Or we wouldn't have the URC or Europe.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:41 am

If the WRU were to pay 80% of (Welsh) player wages to the English club who signed them it's grand; else the Welsh clubs have an unfair advantage. It may be as above if this unlikely event were to come about the WRU stop paying those wages and the clubs then suffer from having second rate players with the WRU concentrating the Welsh internationals in the teams in their own league.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:49 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I actually think, that it is quite amusing how this has gone from being a pipe dream, and people being deluded, to it now being actual mainstream news and spoken about by the media.

Despite what some people say Welsh rugby can offer a lot to the English game. There is more appetite in Wales for an Anglo/Welsh league than what we currently have. It would bring a breath of fresh air to the English game, and the Welsh supporters would travel because they would not need to book a flight/boat and hotel and have to take days off work to watch their teams play in England, which if we are to be honest is a massive stumbling block for the support of the league. We do not see any away fans.
This is a fallacy and an argument that I constantly see with super league fans when they are discussing having teams like Toronto, Catalans and Toulouse teams in the top division at the expense of English sides. This is an argument for small time sports teams desperate for any extra cash they can get. I mean you're literally talking about a couple of hundred away fans at each game at the absolute max, and I'm sure I'm being generous there. We barely see any away fans for regional derby games outside of maybe the games at Christmas, so I don't see where all these travelling fans are coming from.

Yeah, cos fans travel the length and breadth of the British Isles to watch the URC don't they ? They also traverse continents as well. Rolling Eyes

Give it a rest will you ?

I mean you're literally talking about a couple of hundred away fans at each game at the absolute max, and I'm sure I'm being generous there. wrote:

Well that's couple more than what is happening now. OK

To see the failures in your argument, you only need to look at the amount of fans go to the derby games, because people do not have to pay a small fortune to watch their team when you can travel by car/train/bus and get home the same day, in fact, it is a good day out and the traveling fans bring much needed income to the the team their club is playing.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:52 am

Irish Londoner wrote:So when the Welsh clubs play English clubs in the European competitions is there a massive increase in attendance at the games - which would show a demand from Welsh fans to see English teams - equally is there evidence that Welsh fans will make the journey to England for away games - maybe Bath/Bristol but what about beyond that.

Yes, there actually is an increase in attendance, and not so long ago Scarlets took quite a few fans to Northampton, the Welsh fans would travel to watch their teams play if it did not mean they had to pay a small fortune.

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Post by MichaelT Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:57 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:As I've already said - if England RFU plays an out of test window, do they give a load of money to the Premeirship? The answer is no. So you've assumed wrongly.

As far as I know the agreement between RFU and PRL allows for this player access. England usually play 4 games in the even years - 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2022 and 3 in the odd year thats not a world cup year - 2009, 2013, 2017, 2021 etc. Theres no extra money as its all part of the access agreement, and the planned number of games set out years in advance.

I remember talk a few years ago - maybe 2017? - where the RFU were going to pay New Zealand 1.5m GBP to play an extra test, but New Zealand said they were worth more and England said take it or leave it. It didnt happen. I think thats part of a bigger stare off with those two nations though, and why they hardly play anymore. For this topic though I wonder how access would have worked - would RFU have paid extra for this match? I imagine so.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:57 am

Brendan wrote:

Did you miss the part where for the 2018/19 season Scarlets got 9.6m from the WRU. 3m was for TV money and competition money leaving 6.6m from the WRU to Scarlets for something else.  That 6.6m is more than any English club got from the RFU which is what I was asked to show.

If Wuss were getting 6.6m from the RFU plus the TV and competition money aswell I doubt they would be in trouble.

You are claiming that the £6.6m is "funding" from the kindness of the WRUs hearts. It is not.

SC4 would not have any TV rights as BT hold the rights to the UK and they give one game a week to a FTA channel that overs the whole of the UK.  Why would the PRL do any deal with a Welsh only channel.

Same reason Premeir sports and URC did.

URC doesn't care how teams are funded the PRL do.  If we take Scarlets as an example the WRU would not be able to just put money into the private owned team like the URC.

At this point, you need to do the research as you are not taking on board a single thing that is being said to you. The Scarlets are operated exactly the same way as the English clubs are. The RFU gives the PRL clubs £220 million quid in their latest deal!! And their player release agreement is much more per player than teh Welsh get.

The WRU and PRL would agree terms for access to all Welsh players in the league and pay the PRL.  The PRL would then manage the rules and given each team their cut.  This would result in some of the West English teams keeping their Welsh stars subsidies by the WRU.  Good news is the Regions can get paid to have English players.

West English teams? Paying PRL? It's word soup. Absolute nosnense.

PRL is not URC.  Again people still haven't explained how a Welsh team can play in the Prem without the WRU approval, and WRU isn't going to give up the access they have to their players at said team because they only want to spend on Welsh teams not PRL teams.

A Welsh team can't play without WRU approval. The article puiblished on Sunday hints that WRU approval would be granted. Player access would be the same as now. You're just inventing problems.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:59 am

MichaelT wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:As I've already said - if England RFU plays an out of test window, do they give a load of money to the Premeirship? The answer is no. So you've assumed wrongly.

As far as I know the agreement between RFU and PRL allows for this player access. England usually play 4 games in the even years - 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2022 and 3 in the odd year thats not a world cup year - 2009, 2013, 2017, 2021 etc. Theres no extra money as its all part of the access agreement, and the planned number of games set out years in advance.

I remember talk a few years ago - maybe 2017? - where the RFU were going to pay New Zealand 1.5m GBP to play an extra test, but New Zealand said they were worth more and England said take it or leave it. It didnt happen. I think thats part of a bigger stare off with those two nations though, and why they hardly play anymore. For this topic though I wonder how access would have worked - would RFU have paid extra for this match? I imagine so.

Exactly. There are agreements in place with the clubs involved. You don't "pay the league some cash" if you want players available.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:01 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:So when the Welsh clubs play English clubs in the European competitions is there a massive increase in attendance at the games - which would show a demand from Welsh fans to see English teams - equally is there evidence that Welsh fans will make the journey to England for away games - maybe Bath/Bristol but what about beyond that.

Yes, there actually is an increase in attendance, and not so long ago Scarlets took quite a few fans to Northampton, the Welsh fans would travel to watch their teams play if it did not mean they had to pay a small fortune.

Lack of detail there so I thought I'd have a gander at the last time that Sale had a Welsh team, lowest attendance of the round at 4000. Below the normal attendance for English clubs in both the prem and European comps/

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:03 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Did you miss the part where for the 2018/19 season Scarlets got 9.6m from the WRU. 3m was for TV money and competition money leaving 6.6m from the WRU to Scarlets for something else.  That 6.6m is more than any English club got from the RFU which is what I was asked to show.

If Wuss were getting 6.6m from the RFU plus the TV and competition money aswell I doubt they would be in trouble.

You are claiming that the £6.6m is "funding" from the kindness of the WRUs hearts. It is not.

SC4 would not have any TV rights as BT hold the rights to the UK and they give one game a week to a FTA channel that overs the whole of the UK.  Why would the PRL do any deal with a Welsh only channel.

Same reason Premeir sports and URC did.

URC doesn't care how teams are funded the PRL do.  If we take Scarlets as an example the WRU would not be able to just put money into the private owned team like the URC.

At this point, you need to do the research as you are not taking on board a single thing that is being said to you. The Scarlets are operated exactly the same way as the English clubs are. The RFU gives the PRL clubs £220 million quid in their latest deal!! And their player release agreement is much more per player than teh Welsh get.

The WRU and PRL would agree terms for access to all Welsh players in the league and pay the PRL.  The PRL would then manage the rules and given each team their cut.  This would result in some of the West English teams keeping their Welsh stars subsidies by the WRU.  Good news is the Regions can get paid to have English players.

West English teams? Paying PRL? It's word soup. Absolute nosnense.

PRL is not URC.  Again people still haven't explained how a Welsh team can play in the Prem without the WRU approval, and WRU isn't going to give up the access they have to their players at said team because they only want to spend on Welsh teams not PRL teams.

A Welsh team can't play without WRU approval. The article puiblished on Sunday hints that WRU approval would be granted. Player access would be the same as now. You're just inventing problems.

The WRU pay 80% of selected Welsh players wages. Doubt they will be doing that for English clubs so it puts them at a disadvantage. That funding may not follow any Welsh team to the prem anyway of course.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The WRU pay 80% of selected Welsh players wages. Doubt they will be doing that for English clubs so it puts them at a disadvantage. That funding may not follow any Welsh team to the prem anyway of course.

That's the least of our worries to be honest. I wouldn't care if all the 80% players were kept behind in Wales and played for the other 2 clubs. Although as you've been told by other posters - the players are contracted 100% to the welsh pro clubs, so there's no problem contractually. The WRU is then recharged for the players in the 80% pay bracket.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:57 am

Doesn't really matter though, if you were one of the English clubs you don't want the Welsh paying only 20% of wages on those selected players. I don't know why the English would agree to that. Re players being left behind this regurgitated story is being pushed as a Welsh club with top players is better than Donny Knights in terms of pull; that pull disappears without those Welshmen.

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Post by carpet baboon Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:00 am

I do love this conversation.
It's like arguing which My Little Pony would win the grand national.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I actually think, that it is quite amusing how this has gone from being a pipe dream, and people being deluded, to it now being actual mainstream news and spoken about by the media.

Despite what some people say Welsh rugby can offer a lot to the English game. There is more appetite in Wales for an Anglo/Welsh league than what we currently have. It would bring a breath of fresh air to the English game, and the Welsh supporters would travel because they would not need to book a flight/boat and hotel and have to take days off work to watch their teams play in England, which if we are to be honest is a massive stumbling block for the support of the league. We do not see any away fans.
This is a fallacy and an argument that I constantly see with super league fans when they are discussing having teams like Toronto, Catalans and Toulouse teams in the top division at the expense of English sides. This is an argument for small time sports teams desperate for any extra cash they can get. I mean you're literally talking about a couple of hundred away fans at each game at the absolute max, and I'm sure I'm being generous there. We barely see any away fans for regional derby games outside of maybe the games at Christmas, so I don't see where all these travelling fans are coming from.

Yeah, cos fans travel the length and breadth of the British Isles to watch the URC don't they ? They also traverse continents as well. Rolling Eyes

Give it a rest will you ?



Well that's couple more than what is happening now. OK

To see the failures in your argument, you only need to look at the amount of fans go to the derby games, because people do not have to pay a small fortune to watch their team when you can travel by car/train/bus and get home the same day, in fact, it is a good day out and the traveling fans bring much needed income to the the team their club is playing.
I've already addressed this in comment above if you're bothered to read on a couple of lines more. Crowds for regional games are poor outside of the xmas derbies, so how can you claim that there are loads of travelling fans? There aren't even many away fans for interpro derbies let alone regional ones ffs, even though Munster and Leinster have by far the largest travelling support in domestic rugby (see the HC since it's inception).
If your club is relying on a few away fans for "much need income", you haven't much hope. A club can't get anymore small time than that.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:21 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Crowds for regional games are poor outside of the xmas derbies, so how can you claim that there are loads of travelling fans?

No they are not. 9500 people turned up to watch Scarlets V Ospreys two weeks ago. That's not "poor". OK

If the regions could get that crowd every week they would be sorted.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:24 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:If your club is relying on a few away fans for "much need income", you haven't much hope. A club can't get anymore small time than that.

Welsh rugby has always relied on the fanbase. Before regionalism the travelling fans made the difference, although that was a long time ago and now things have changed. But the sentiment is still the same, we need travelling fans in Wales as there is not enough people living here to support all the rugby that goes on.

Sorry if we are to small time for you big hitters.

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Post by Old Man Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:27 am

Lordowlais, asre you talking about ticket revenue of away fans?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:29 am

Yeah there were a good couple of thousand away fans at the first Scarlets home match of the season. I was there.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:32 am

Old Man wrote:Lordowlais, asre you talking about ticket revenue of away fans?

Yes, and all the concessions they purchase whilst they are there. Programmes, drinks, snacks, merchandise ect....

Last week Scarlets had through their gates at least a thousand more people than they normally would, it makes a difference.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:48 am

So bigger attendances for the Welsh and from the Sale stat above lower for the English. This seems another plus minus pov.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:30 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:Yeah there were a good couple of thousand away fans at the first Scarlets home match of the season. I was there.
That means that only 7500 scarlets fans were there? Not a chance.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Crowds for regional games are poor outside of the xmas derbies, so how can you claim that there are loads of travelling fans?

No they are not. 9500 people turned up to watch Scarlets V Ospreys two weeks ago. That's not "poor". OK

If the regions could get that crowd every week they would be sorted.
If you think that 9.5k people in attendance for an opening Derby is a good attendance than fair enough.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:34 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Yeah there were a good couple of thousand away fans at the first Scarlets home match of the season. I was there.
That means that only 7500 scarlets fans were there? Not a chance.

Eh? Why ? Check the attendance of the Ulster game to compare.

Your actually with someone who was at the game? Okay.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:36 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Crowds for regional games are poor outside of the xmas derbies, so how can you claim that there are loads of travelling fans?

No they are not. 9500 people turned up to watch Scarlets V Ospreys two weeks ago. That's not "poor". OK

If the regions could get that crowd every week they would be sorted.
If you think that 9.5k people in attendance for an opening Derby is a good attendance than fair enough.

That 9.5k is 21% of the population of the town in which the game was being held.

For Leinster to have an equivalent attendance, they'd have to have a crowd of 114,000

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:41 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Yeah there were a good couple of thousand away fans at the first Scarlets home match of the season. I was there.
That means that only 7500 scarlets fans were there? Not a chance.

Eh? Why ? Check the attendance of the Ulster game to compare.

Your actually with someone who was at the game? Okay.
But it's easier to see the entire crowd from TV than being in the stands Laugh

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:43 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Crowds for regional games are poor outside of the xmas derbies, so how can you claim that there are loads of travelling fans?

No they are not. 9500 people turned up to watch Scarlets V Ospreys two weeks ago. That's not "poor". OK

If the regions could get that crowd every week they would be sorted.
If you think that 9.5k people in attendance for an opening Derby is a good attendance than fair enough.

That 9.5k is 21% of the population of the town in which the game was being held.

For Leinster to have an equivalent attendance, they'd have to have a crowd of 114,000
I've seen the Scarlets get that for non Derby games and also get sellouts vs the Ospreys but if you're happy with that then fair enough.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:48 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Crowds for regional games are poor outside of the xmas derbies, so how can you claim that there are loads of travelling fans?

No they are not. 9500 people turned up to watch Scarlets V Ospreys two weeks ago. That's not "poor". OK

If the regions could get that crowd every week they would be sorted.
If you think that 9.5k people in attendance for an opening Derby is a good attendance than fair enough.

That 9.5k is 21% of the population of the town in which the game was being held.

For Leinster to have an equivalent attendance, they'd have to have a crowd of 114,000
I've seen the Scarlets get that for non Derby games and also get sellouts vs the Ospreys but if you're happy with that then fair enough.

Got to be realistic. People in Wales have no money.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:51 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Crowds for regional games are poor outside of the xmas derbies, so how can you claim that there are loads of travelling fans?

No they are not. 9500 people turned up to watch Scarlets V Ospreys two weeks ago. That's not "poor". OK

If the regions could get that crowd every week they would be sorted.
If you think that 9.5k people in attendance for an opening Derby is a good attendance than fair enough.

That 9.5k is 21% of the population of the town in which the game was being held.

For Leinster to have an equivalent attendance, they'd have to have a crowd of 114,000
I've seen the Scarlets get that for non Derby games and also get sellouts vs the Ospreys but if you're happy with that then fair enough.

Got to be realistic. People in Wales have no money.
True. Small towns can get good attendances though. Bayonne has a pop of 60k and had an average attendance of 10k in prod2. Oyannax has 22k but sold out every game in Top14. In contrast Leinster has a very large population but get relatively poor crowds.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:55 pm

Well, it looks like this was just another flash in the pan. RFU and PRL in discussions on how to accommodate the potential absence of two clubs for this season, unless, buyers can be found or new financial solutions put in place. None of these involve bringing in two Welsh regions from left field and undermining the URC competition which PRL and EPCR do not want to happen.
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Post by Intotouch Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:08 pm

Pot Hale wrote:I see that Munster Rugby have sold out their game against South Africa Select XV on Nov 10 during test window - looks like they made the right call in moving the game to the 45,000 capacity Páirc Uí Chaoimh in Cork with stand tickets selling out in the first hour, and terrace selling out in the following few days.

Good piece of business for the southern province.

Thomand park is in the city with a smaller population.  With the rising price of fuel now fewer Cork people want to (can afford to) make the trek to Limerick so of course they’ll take advantage of seeing a big Munster game in Cork. Good for Munster rugby for organising this. Fans from Cork will really appreciate this.

I wonder what % of the profit the GAA charged for this? If it were economically viable for Munster to hold more games in Pairc UiC that could solve the problem of the falling attendances at Thomond park. But there might be little profit in it. But if there were, fewer matches in Thomond park might boost attendances there when they’re there, and more Cork matches in a large stadium could bring in more fans.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:14 pm

Intotouch wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I see that Munster Rugby have sold out their game against South Africa Select XV on Nov 10 during test window - looks like they made the right call in moving the game to the 45,000 capacity Páirc Uí Chaoimh in Cork with stand tickets selling out in the first hour, and terrace selling out in the following few days.

Good piece of business for the southern province.

Thomand park is in the city with a smaller population.  With the rising price of fuel now fewer Cork people want to (can afford to) make the trek to Limerick so of course they’ll take advantage of seeing a big Munster game in Cork. Good for Munster rugby for organising this. Fans from Cork will really appreciate this.

I wonder what % of the profit the GAA charged for this? If it were economically viable for Munster to hold more games in Pairc UiC that could solve the problem of the falling attendances at Thomond park. But there might be little profit in it. But if there were, fewer matches in Thomond park might boost attendances there when they’re there, and more Cork matches in a large stadium could bring in more fans.

Hmm - given that IRFU have a 50% stake in Thomond until the loan debt is paid off, I doubt they'd want to see this happening. Thomond is what generates the multi-season tickets sales of which IRFU get a 50% income against the current debt. It'll be interesting to see Munster Branch accounts on additional revenues for Thomond from concerts and the like.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:15 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Well, it looks like this was just another flash in the pan.   RFU and PRL in discussions on how to accommodate the potential absence of two clubs for this season, unless, buyers can be found or new financial solutions put in place.  None of these involve bringing in two Welsh regions from left field and undermining the URC competition which PRL and EPCR do not want to happen.

Did you manage to find a link to this one:  ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Very much doubt this will happen, apart from relegation, would the WRU then be expected to make payments to the Premiership for player release? Is that funding then taken off the two regions?

Why would the WRU make payments to 'The Premiership' ? They make payments to the teams in Wales who agree to give their players to the WRU.

Because the WRU and SRU have had to do this previously to have their players released for a test match.  RFU have this covered off under their agreement.

You mean paying English sides to release players? I'm not aware of the WRU ever paying English teams to release players. Northampton and Bath have both been rightly fined by PRL in previous years for releasing players like Falatau and North to the WRU for out of window test matches. Have you got a link?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:32 pm

It feels like I am banging my head against a wall here, but here goes.

Ireland have 209 clubs affiliated to the 4 branches, with a total population of 5,060,543 people. Wales on the other hand has a population of 3.19m people, and over 300 rugby clubs. All this info is readily available from Google. Add to this, in Wales, there are two massive football clubs Cardiff City FC and Swansea City FC, which in themselves have a massive following, we then have two other clubs Newport city FC in the English professional Pyramid, and to add to this, we have the nonsense going on with Hollywood stars buying Wrexham FC and everybody from north Wales jumping on that bandwagon.

Rugby in Wales has a lot to compete with. So to get the crowds they get, is quite impressive. To get 9,000 - 10,000 people through the gates for a Welsh derby is good going. I'm sorry if it does not match the giddy heights that Irish provinces are setting, but we do our best.

Truth be told, there is far too much rugby in Wales for the amount of people. Every village has a rugby pitch in the center of it, people in the community build themselves around their rugby team. All these people do not have the extra time or money to help/support/play for their community team, and go and support the regions. But we do not do bad.

The extra away fans at games is massive in Wales, and to be fair, we will travel, just look how the national team is supported when Wales play away from home. But to do it every other week is too much, unless of course they are just driving a few hours up a motorway, taking in the atmoshphere, watching their team and returning home the same night. That is far more doable than booking flights, booking a hotel, booking days off work to go and watch your team play.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:50 pm

Bundee Aki is likely to get a long ban for his red card tackle last weekend.  He’s staying on in South Africa in order to try to help his winless Connacht side get first win of their season.

He’s apologised to team-mates  but that won’t change the likely impact for his club or indeed his test place any good.

Seabelo Senatla suffered a pectoral muscle injury in the incident and could be out for a number of months.
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Post by Pot Hale Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:58 pm

Unsurprising news.

Consortium get their wish for Worcester to be put into administration and up they pop as soon as it is.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/09/27/worcester-warriors-jim-otoole-says-consortium-can-pay-175m-save/
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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:24 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Did you manage to find a link to this one:  ?

I'll take the defeaning silence as a no, as it's completely fabrictated nonsense. Again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:34 pm

English sides don't release players for other nations. When it has been tested the club was fined and that was that.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:59 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:

Did you manage to find a link to this one:  ?

I'll take the defeaning silence as a no, as it's completely fabrictated nonsense. Again.

The silence is because there's little to no point in responding to you as you're set in your views.

Probably would be best not to ask me questions in future so as to avoid further disappointment.

Hope that clarifies.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:English sides don't release players for other nations. When it has been tested the club was fined and that was that.

Do you think that the two clubs will survive, 7&1/2?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:31 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:English sides don't release players for other nations. When it has been tested the club was fined and that was that.

Do you think that the two clubs will survive, 7&1/2?
How much do we really know about the situations. I personally think that there's enough positive noises coming out from the club and prl to think Worcester will probably be back in a month or 2 but who knows. Wasps are the bigger name surely they'll find the finance more easily.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:English sides don't release players for other nations. When it has been tested the club was fined and that was that.

Do you think that the two clubs will survive, 7&1/2?
How much do we really know about the situations. I personally think that there's enough positive noises coming out from the club and prl to think Worcester will probably be back in a month or 2 but who knows. Wasps are the bigger name surely they'll find the finance more easily.

Yep - probably agree with that. The "new consortium" led by the old CEO appears to have been waiting in the wings, although whether they are aware of the two current shareholders stripping the club of its assets is another guess. As I understand it, they are looking to do a deal whereby they remain as shareholders, albeit minority.

Richardson at Wasps is going to have to decide whether he wants to sink more money into the club or is the whole situation with the Coventry ground simply too unsustainable.
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Post by Intotouch Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:23 pm

So instead of finding a way to save two English prem clubs, or help two championship sides make jump to the premiership level the PRL nab two sides from another league, screwing up that league in the process. So much for solidarity.

I can see how the prem sides might be ok with this but I’m amazed that championship sides would be. Do they have no choice? Are the Welsh sides happy with the prospect of being relegated and why would the championship sides want the extra competition?

If they do go I hope Leinster b can replace one of them. It’d improve the standard.

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