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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

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Post by Geordie Thu 24 Nov 2022, 3:58 pm

Can someone just clear one thing up for me.

Is Coles an actual 6 by trade, a lock who can cover 6 particularly well like Lawes did...or is he a lock whos done a job during injuries for Saints

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:01 pm

Geordie wrote:Can someone just clear one thing up for me.

Is Coles an actual 6 by trade, a lock who can cover 6 particularly well like Lawes did...or is he a lock whose done a job during injuries for Saints

He is a true hybrid, probably played as many games at BS as at lock, when he was younger he was a bit lightweight for lock and Saints had a number of quality locks. He only started 12 games last season came off the bench 16 times. I can remember him playing regularly at lock earlier on, but seems to have played both positions this year.
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Post by TJ Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:04 pm

Sorry chaps I have not read every post. Has anyone posted the squidge analysis yet? Very complementary about Englands attack shapes and Marcus Smith in particular. also he points out why the incerception try for the ABs was NOT offfside and why the ball was given as out of the ruck when many thought it was not out

Very interesting watching as ever




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Post by doctor_grey Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:23 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm starting think Hill's head is too small for Int rugby...he looks very odd on team sheets.
Looks like it's further away from the camera than the rest of his body doesn't it?

I just think of beetlejuice everytime I see him.
Maybe if you say "Beetlejuice" three times we might get some help for the England squad against the Boks? That said, the help might be a tad unusual....

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:39 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Geordie wrote:Can someone just clear one thing up for me.

Is Coles an actual 6 by trade, a lock who can cover 6 particularly well like Lawes did...or is he a lock whose done a job during injuries for Saints

He is a true hybrid, probably played as many games at BS as at lock, when he was younger he was a bit lightweight for lock and Saints had a number of quality locks. He only started 12 games last season came off the bench 16 times. I can remember him playing regularly at lock earlier on, but seems to have played both positions this year.
The thing about Coles is he is extremely bright - his nickname is 'The Educator'.  Not terribly intimidating for a Rugby player, but this is the new millennium so there you go.  
Also, for the last two years he won Saints club fitness competition.  So his motor runs and runs.  
He has great attacking skills, again, coached in by Chris Boyd.  Tracks a play about as well as any forward so always seems to show up in the right place.  
And he does a lot of grunt work, has good size and is probably around 18.5 stone at the moment.  I know he wanted to be a bit heavier, but needs to be careful with that.  

Seems comfortable at 6, and as I wrote earlier, last night I watched a replay of Saints-LI and coincidentally, Coles was at 6.  This was before the team announcement and I thought he looked fine - his defensive positioning is usually quite good as well.  As WPI said, almost a natural hybrid.  But to me, still bedding in on the flank.  My preference would be to have seen Ribbans start in lieu of Beetlejuice victim Jonny Hill, and have Coles on the bench.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:56 pm

Coles can genuinely play both positions I think. Similar to Marchant being very good at centre and wing.

Versatility has become a dirty word in rugby for some reason. An odd growing obsession that players should only play one position when rugby has always seen huge versatility between positions. Most wingers covering fullback and 13, flankers covering 8 and vice versa, fly-halves covering 12 or 15, locks who cover 6, etc etc. These are things as old as rugby.

From the 2003 RWC squad think how many players there were who did those things. Corry, Hill, Dallagio, Worsley, Catt, Lewsey, Robinson...

It's not a new-fangled, heathen concept brought from Australia by Eddie. It's just rugby isn't it?

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Post by hugehandoff Thu 24 Nov 2022, 7:01 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AftayuhgWxM&t=1813s

from 36.45 Joe Simpson discusses what it is like in the England camp. Very interesting stuff. Eddie has delivered many great results, but the stress on players and coaches alike clearly takes its toll. Players unable to sleep properly etc. Unable to play like they do for their clubs. His methods clearly have worked and he also clearly has an incredible understanding for the game, but I do feel that England will react very positively to whoever takes over. I am sure that 2024 will be a good year for England.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 25 Nov 2022, 8:28 am

Daily Heil, Woodward:

'As a head coach I constantly wanted to minimise the number of distractions to my team.

Ahead of a huge game with South Africa on Saturday, this England side have been distracted yet again by more headlines about Eddie Jones. I cannot believe the RFU keep allowing it to happen. Clearly there is no one there who understands top-level international sport and especially rugby, which in itself is bizarre.

This week, Jones' name was front and centre in the media but not because of his role with England. It was for all the wrong reasons. There has been lots of talk about what Jones is going to do after England and the latest team he has been linked to is the USA on an eight-year deal.

Eddie Jones¿ name was front and centre in the media for all the wrong reasons this week
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Eddie Jones' name was front and centre in the media for all the wrong reasons this week

Frankly, who cares? I'm bored by the whole thing. I don't care what Jones does next. What I do care about is how he and the England side are faring now, especially as World Cup year approaches.


Talk over the coach's future does not help any team. I don't know where the USA story came from, but the RFU should not be allowing it to come out in the week of a big Test. It is the latest example which shows why Bill Sweeney and Conor O'Shea are totally out of their depth at the governing body. It is a shame the select committee for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport did not have time to question them yesterday about the way our international team is run.

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If you believe Sweeney and O'Shea, a review has been done a couple of times but only by people who do not wish to be named! There are some things you just cannot make up.

They do not stand up to Jones. They nod when he tells them to nod. He does what he wants. Frankly, Jones has both Sweeney and O'Shea in his pocket.

Some reading this might argue the England players will not get distracted by media talk about Jones's future. Nothing is further from the truth. Keeping possible distractions to a minimum is a key coaching skill. These distractions are just magnified if they involve the head coach.

Jones will leave his post with the Red Roses after the completion of the World Cup next year
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Jones will leave his post with the Red Roses after the completion of the World Cup next year

England allowed themselves to get distracted by external factors after beating New Zealand in the semi-finals of the last World Cup. The result was they lost the final to South Africa, who were by far the better team. Distractions and a loss of focus can kill any team and did that day.

Look at the German football side at the World Cup in Qatar. I think they got distracted by their hands-over-the-mouth gimmick ahead of their game with Japan. What happened? They lost and were on the wrong end of a huge upset.

At the top, top level, all these little things add up which is why as a head coach you want to minimise and eradicate all of them if possible. The coach's future should be kept out of the media.

England need to beat South Africa but there is nothing in Jones's team that will worry the Springboks. Whatever happens this weekend, I don't think we will have learned much, if anything, from the autumn campaign. It has been a huge missed opportunity for England.

I just don't understand the constant chopping and changing. This time it is in the pack. Ellis Genge is one of England's best players. Genge must start but he has been dropped to the bench. I've read Jones talking about bringing on players like Genge in the second half to match South Africa's 'Bomb Squad'. I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that approach.

Two things. First, the best teams pick their side to win the match by the way THEY play, select accordingly, and then spend a minimum of time worrying about the opposition. The moment you select your team trying to match up to your rivals is the moment you are destined to come second. We have fantastic players to pick from in England. Let's be confident in that.'

Of course Woodward never changed his team and didn't announce his next job during the 6Ns.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 25 Nov 2022, 8:36 am

king_carlos wrote:Coles can genuinely play both positions I think. Similar to Marchant being very good at centre and wing.

Versatility has become a dirty word in rugby for some reason. An odd growing obsession that players should only play one position when rugby has always seen huge versatility between positions. Most wingers covering fullback and 13, flankers covering 8 and vice versa, fly-halves covering 12 or 15, locks who cover 6, etc etc. These are things as old as rugby.

From the 2003 RWC squad think how many players there were who did those things. Corry, Hill, Dallagio, Worsley, Catt, Lewsey, Robinson...

It's not a new-fangled, heathen concept brought from Australia by Eddie. It's just rugby isn't it?

As a former utility back I approve of this post.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 25 Nov 2022, 8:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Of course Woodward never changed his team and didn't announce his next job during the 6Ns.

Woodward has been after a job at the RFU for some time. He keeps on banging the drum for someone with top level rugby experience to sit above the head coach, advise and hold them to account. I can only presume he isn't getting enough from spouting rubbish in the media so wants to get back on the RFU books.

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Post by dummy_half Fri 25 Nov 2022, 12:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Coles can genuinely play both positions I think. Similar to Marchant being very good at centre and wing.

Versatility has become a dirty word in rugby for some reason. An odd growing obsession that players should only play one position when rugby has always seen huge versatility between positions. Most wingers covering fullback and 13, flankers covering 8 and vice versa, fly-halves covering 12 or 15, locks who cover 6, etc etc. These are things as old as rugby.

From the 2003 RWC squad think how many players there were who did those things. Corry, Hill, Dallagio, Worsley, Catt, Lewsey, Robinson...

It's not a new-fangled, heathen concept brought from Australia by Eddie. It's just rugby isn't it?

As a former utility back I approve of this post.

Is that the sort that is equally mediocre across all the positions? Wink

I played much more league than union (hence the user name) and played every position across the back division before settling as hooker, which of course is much more like a union scrum half, with passing, sniping and generally directing traffic, although being less of an annoying g0bsh*te.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 25 Nov 2022, 1:30 pm

dummy_half wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Coles can genuinely play both positions I think. Similar to Marchant being very good at centre and wing.

Versatility has become a dirty word in rugby for some reason. An odd growing obsession that players should only play one position when rugby has always seen huge versatility between positions. Most wingers covering fullback and 13, flankers covering 8 and vice versa, fly-halves covering 12 or 15, locks who cover 6, etc etc. These are things as old as rugby.

From the 2003 RWC squad think how many players there were who did those things. Corry, Hill, Dallagio, Worsley, Catt, Lewsey, Robinson...

It's not a new-fangled, heathen concept brought from Australia by Eddie. It's just rugby isn't it?

As a former utility back I approve of this post.

Is that the sort that is equally mediocre across all the positions? Wink

I played much more league than union (hence the user name) and played every position across the back division before settling as hooker, which of course is much more like a union scrum half, with passing, sniping and generally directing traffic, although being less of an annoying g0bsh*te.

Pretty much the case. I can pass off both hands, kick, reliably make my tackles and was quick but not rapid. One of those passable at everything but not really stand out at anything either so I just generally filled in where the team needed. I played some seasons on the wing, at 10, 12 and 13 then filled in at fullback and 9 as required. Played openside a couple of times because I wasn't bad at being nuisance at the breakdown.

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Post by dummy_half Fri 25 Nov 2022, 4:01 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
dummy_half wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:...

As a former utility back I approve of this post.

Is that the sort that is equally mediocre across all the positions? Wink

I played much more league than union (hence the user name) and played every position across the back division before settling as hooker, which of course is much more like a union scrum half, with passing, sniping and generally directing traffic, although being less of an annoying g0bsh*te.

Pretty much the case. I can pass off both hands, kick, reliably make my tackles and was quick but not rapid. One of those passable at everything but not really stand out at anything either so I just generally filled in where the team needed. I played some seasons on the wing, at 10, 12 and 13 then filled in at fullback and 9 as required. Played openside a couple of times because I wasn't bad at being nuisance at the breakdown.

Sounds like an archetypal decent club man. Actually, sounds fairly like my Dad's playing career through the 1970s for Morley - at his best got offered a Yorkshire trial, but never established himself in one position in the first XV, but would fill in where needed, or otherwise be one of the good players in the second XV. Don't think he ever played open side though (wasn't big enough). May not be enough to take you to greatness, but makes you a valuable member of the club. It's the limitations of being 'quick but not rapid', and less than 16 stone and 6' 4"...

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Post by carpet baboon Fri 25 Nov 2022, 4:57 pm

Utility backs of the world unite!!!!!


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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 25 Nov 2022, 6:53 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Utility backs of the world unite!!!!!


The great glue that binds amateur rugby together.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 25 Nov 2022, 7:14 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Utility backs of the world unite!!!!!


...and what about utility forwards, a lot of us could play anywhere in the back five at club level. Being a largish and very tall 15 year old, I was too young to play for the colts in my local club, but they were quite happy to pay me at lock for the second team against adult sides. The only thing in my final school report that was positive was from the games master that insisted in capital letters that I should continue to play rugby after I left school at 16

I got hurt badly at 22, knee could never take the training and the games after 6 months in plaster. As a result my weight dropped from around 18 st to 16.5st, that meant I could play at 4 (shoulder stopped me playing 5, couldn't bind well enough) or anywhere in the back three. Being 6'4" I was tall enough and springy enough to jump in the lineout (no lifting then), but was fast enough to play winger if necessary so great for a 7 and had the internal motor to play 6 and tackle/carry all day.

Once I got older and further problems with my knee and shoulder resulted in a change of gender and a move into the girls in the backs, not many 12s fancied facing me on the crash ball, I then migrated out to the wing and finally my last game in May 2001 at fullback where I scored twice in a comprehensive win for my clubs 2nds (5 adult sides). I suspect that as it was my final match at the ripe old age of 47, they tried hide to feed me the opportunities.

I was of course helped by everybody else catching up with me in size over the years and losing a bit more weight as I got older helped to keep me together a bit longer. At the ripe old age of 68, I am now feeling all the things that 40 years of playing rugby does to you.
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Post by Poorfour Sat 26 Nov 2022, 9:57 am

As a No 8 who was fast enough to run in the relay team but who got sentenced to the second row for being tall, I hear you WPI. But I hated locking, so I drifted out of the game and ended up as a blitzing lineman in gridiron. I would have been a tight end, except that I kept outrunning the quarterback's pass and couldn't have caught it anyway.

Anyway, forward to this evening and what could be a pretty balanced game. If anyone hasn't seen it, Squidge has done a good piece on both what the All Blacks attack is becoming under Joe Schmidt, and on what England have cooking -
https://youtu.be/Okii8Rcc2yU

If he's right about England (and I think he is) it explains why they spend a lot of time looking like they don't know what they're doing.

The attack relies on having overlapping waves and shapes that only snap into position at the last moment, which looks messy even when it's running well but also clearly takes a lot more time to learn than most attacking patterns. However, when it works, it presents the defence with more options than they can cover, and Smith (or Farrell) just has to wait until they commit to exploit it.

But as Squidge notes, now the point is proven, it will probably just go back under wraps for most of the time until the RWC and England will play a stodgy plan B until they actually need to unleash what they are capable of.

It's thought provoking, and I think it also explains some of Eddie's selection oddities. I suspect that the players he is favouring are the ones who are doing the best job of slotting into an attack that requires players to take quite different roles from phase to phase, and picking up where they have to be at each point in time.
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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Nov 2022, 11:50 am

To days match against SA will be a tough challenge for England, England need to start this game  like they finshed last week  against NZ.
Good luck England

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 26 Nov 2022, 4:59 pm

Is it my TV or is the voice syncing miles off on the lead up to the England game?
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 26 Nov 2022, 5:45 pm

Just heard, Doddy Weir has died. God Bless.
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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:14 pm

RIP Dodie.

Thought there was a forward pass for SAs lovely try. Im sure TASanalytics will do a video on it later. Terrible defense from Smith too.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:19 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:RIP Dodie.

Thought there was a forward pass for SAs lovely try. Im sure TASanalytics will do a video on it later. Terrible defense from Smith too.

It's more the winger changing his line twice to block Steward that I have an issue with.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:21 pm

SA try looked like obstruction on Steward as well as forward, twice the SA back changed direction to impede Stewards run, not by a massive amount but enough to make him go wider. Clearly deliberate..
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Post by TJ Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:23 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote: SA try looked like obstruction on Steward as well as forward, twice the SA back changed direction to impede Stewards run, not by a massive amount but enough to make him go wider. Clearly deliberate..

You could hear the ref and TMO discussing it and the TMO said it was fine

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Post by Yoda Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:26 pm

TJ wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote: SA try looked like obstruction on Steward as well as forward, twice the SA back changed direction to impede Stewards run, not by a massive amount but enough to make him go wider. Clearly deliberate..

You could hear the ref and TMO discussing it and the TMO said it was fine

It was obstruction clear as day. I suspect the tmo is having a horrible time at the moment being Welsh and probably wants to kick someone, why not the England team.

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Post by Yoda Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:28 pm

Farrell looks injured to me, hook him off as there's no point staying on. Bring on Slade and let him defend the 13 channel.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:34 pm

England being well out played in this first half too much kicking the high ball, needa chamge of tactict in the second half to have any chance pf wiinning this game,

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Post by Geordie Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:44 pm

Johnny Hill Top trumps intelligence = zero

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:46 pm

Very niggly game. Both sides clapping eachothers mistakes. Itoje and De Klerk the worst offenders. Just play rugby.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:50 pm

Hill should never play for England again. Colossal moron and we saw that in the summer v Australia.

England have tried to outpower South Africa, which is as pointless as trying to pour water uphill.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:54 pm

England getting pumped in the scrum.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:59 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:England getting pumped in the scrum.

Dominated the scrum early doors but SA adapted and have got their own back since.

Will see how they do with number 18 off though.

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Post by Geordie Sat 26 Nov 2022, 6:59 pm

Goodbye

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:00 pm

Defo a red, dumb.

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Post by TJ Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:02 pm

Sorry I don't see that as a red card. Oh well. Rassie will have something else to complain about.

Its always putting yourself at risk of a red tho going in like that

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:03 pm

What a stupid law

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Post by TJ Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:15 pm

TJ wrote:Sorry I don't see that as a red card.  Oh well.  Rassie will have something else to complain about.

Its always putting yourself at risk of a red tho going in like that

My stream collapsed tho so I didn't hear the refs discussion

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Post by Geordie Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:18 pm

TJ wrote:Sorry I don't see that as a red card.  Oh well.  Rassie will have something else to complain about.

Its always putting yourself at risk of a red tho going in like that

You seriously don't see that as a red?? Smashing the shoulder in to the head ? Are you drunk?

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:26 pm

Yoda wrote:
TJ wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote: SA try looked like obstruction on Steward as well as forward, twice the SA back changed direction to impede Stewards run, not by a massive amount but enough to make him go wider. Clearly deliberate..

You could hear the ref and TMO discussing it and the TMO said it was fine

It was obstruction clear as day. I suspect the tmo is having a horrible time at the moment being Welsh and probably wants to kick someone, why not the England team.
I want to kick the England team, too.

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Post by Geordie Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:27 pm

England have been bullied and are a shambles.

Underpowered and lacking some brute physicality in rhat pack and in the centres... sorry Manu is so past it and Farrell is a 10 or nothing.

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Post by Old Man Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:27 pm

Geordie wrote:
TJ wrote:Sorry I don't see that as a red card.  Oh well.  Rassie will have something else to complain about.

Its always putting yourself at risk of a red tho going in like that

You seriously don't see that as a red?? Smashing the shoulder in to the head ? Are you drunk?
smashing shoulder into the head, oh please. His chest hit his head then his head bounced up to his shoulder. Why is there not consideration for Itoje basically being the only thing keeping him upright in the drive?

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:35 pm

England clearly second best today,

Well played South Africa deserved winners by a long way. England back to the drawing board the six nations.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:35 pm

Whoever thought Mako would be a good loosehead to start against the Boks needs an even bigger kicking than South Africa gave England...

Youngs still passing to the ground I see...


Last edited by Mr Bounce on Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Geordie Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:35 pm

His head bounced up to his head....your clearly drunk.

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Post by TJ Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:36 pm

OK

Fair enough - as I said my stream collapsed so I didn't get a great view

I saw it as a clumsy attempt at a tackle not a deliberate bit of foul play. Sounds like I was wrong

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Post by mountain man Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:37 pm

Out muscled, SA too strong too good. Stupid pens by Hill didn't help. Manu again anonymous. Mako as predicted not good enough in scrum, then again no Eng front row was
Changes needed!;

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Post by Yoda Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:39 pm

TJ wrote:Sorry I don't see that as a red card.  Oh well.  Rassie will have something else to complain about.

Its always putting yourself at risk of a red tho going in like that

No arms cheap shot. 100% red.

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Post by hugehandoff Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:43 pm

No progress for England in any way shape or form. Totally useless Autumn. Jones needs to go immediately. I would give it to Robertson as I reckon we need a completely new approach and certainly a new voice. Some sensible and consistent tactics, selections and assistant coaches would help.

Eddie has run his course and someone in the RFU needs to make a bold decision. Why was Mako starting and even in the squad ahead of Marler? Dombrandt has been playing for Quinns and should have been fast tracked back into the squad. Smith and Farrell does not work and clearly he should have picked just one and then Manu/Slade in the centres. Enough is enough especially in playing players in the wrong position.

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Post by Geordie Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:45 pm

TJ wrote:OK

Fair enough - as I said my stream collapsed so I didn't get a great view

I saw it as a clumsy attempt at a tackle not a deliberate bit of foul play.  Sounds like I was wrong

Mate England were ragged dolled .... but please don't make light rhat, that as anything other than a clear red card.

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Post by Geordie Sat 26 Nov 2022, 7:46 pm

Honest question...Itoje and Curry...two BIG players. Look shadows of themselves...why?

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