F1 2023 season

First topic message reminder :

Chinese Grand Prix is officially cancelled again.

Lowlandbrit wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:So Ricciardo now happy to accept a drive from a back of the field team?  Yes will be interesting to see how far ahead he is of Tsunoda if at all.

The only thing more obvious than that it's a a shootout to see who could be Verstappen's nr 2 next year, is that's it's a warning to the current one.

They want Norris - but his contract with McLaren is still worth $30m at the end of 2023.

Marky wrote:To be fair, De Vries had far more experience than a normal rookie. It's harsh but they expected him to perform a lot better considering his Formula E, WEC and three seasons in F2, and plenty of F1 testing.

A bit like Joylen Palmer - took a couple of years to rise to the top in F2, and it showed that he simply isn't a true top tier talent. It's the guys that shine from the off in F2 / GP2 or the top Formula Renault series(Russell, Norris, going back a long time now Hamilton, Vettel) that are likely to be successful making the step up, although even that isn't a guarantee of F1 success; Vandorne was brilliant in F2 but didn't make the jump with much success, paartly perhaps being the wrong team at the wrong time.

A while back some were saying Pourchaire was the next big thing but such noise has died out since then.

No name Bertie wrote:A while back some were saying Pourchaire was the next big thing but such noise has died out since then.

Seems to be the case recently that the drivers to get from F2 into F1 were the bankrolled ones.

Guys like Mazepin and Zhou only got their seats due to finances (obviously Zhou seems to be doing fairly well but the fact remains). Piastri had to wait a year but he was clearly talented enough.

Pourchaire and Frederik Vesti are the two at the top of this seasons F2, I'd imagine winning the title will be enough for Pourchaire to get a seat (as he's already a test reserve for Alfa Romeo)

Alfa Romeo is now Audi - therefore Pourchaire will not get a seat there.

Jeff Navarro wrote:Alfa Romeo is now Audi - therefore Pourchaire will not get a seat there.

1. It's not Audi until 2026

2. I didn't suggest he would specifically get a seat there, I just mean that if he wins F2, having already been a test reserve for a season, he should get a seat next season somewhere

Marky wrote:

Jeff Navarro wrote:Alfa Romeo is now Audi - therefore Pourchaire will not get a seat there.

1. It's not Audi until 2026

2. I didn't suggest he would specifically get a seat there, I just mean that if he wins F2, having already been a test reserve for a season, he should get a seat next season somewhere

The Alfa name will be dropped at the end of the season - could return to Sauber name until 2026 as per what I've seen.

F2 seems a little underwhelming in recent years - only LeClerc, Russell and Norris have really made an impact.

Russell starts P18. Getting exposed in 2023.

Hamilton gets his first pole position since Jeddah 2021.
Verstappen
Norris
Piastri
Zhou
LeClerc
Bottas
Alonso
Perez
Hulkenberg

P1-P3: separated by less than 0.09 s
P4-P9: separated by less than 0.15 s

McLaren qualify P3-4.  Last race they qualified P2-P3.   Their upgrades appear to have shot them right up the grid.  Piastri brilliantly supporting Norris.

WTF:  Alfa Romeo qualify P5 & P7.

Hulkenberg continues to show brilliance: P10 in the Haas.   Compare that to K-Mag in P19.  What has happened to K-Mag this season?

Disappointing that both Williams didn't get through to Q2 - finishing P16 & P20.

Ferrari seem to be fourth best team now on the grid qualifying P6 & P11.

Aston Martin qualified P8 & P14 they also seem to have dropped down the grid as maybe fifth best team.

Ricciardo outqualifies Tsunoda: P13 compared to (cf.) P17.

Alpine: lacklustre: P12 & P15

'Mare for Russell: P18.

Perez "only" 0.35 s slower than Verstappen: qualifies P9 cf. P2

Can't remember this amount of movement during the season (first half of the season).   The only constant is that Verstappen will win this years Drivers Championship.

Qualifying employed new format: Q1 Hards, Q2 Mediums, Q3 softs.   Not sure if this affected qualy by much.

Max Verstappen wins the Hungarian Grand Prix - historic win for Red Bull Racing as they become the first team to win 12 consecutive races. Verstappen wins his 7th consecutive race - equals Ascari, Schumacher and Rosberg. Verstappen wins by some 30+ seconds.

1. Verstappen + FL
2. Norris - consecutive podiums for the first time.
3. Pérez - best performance in along time.
4. Hamilton
5. Piastri
6. Russell
7. LeClerc
8. Sainz
9. Alonso
10. Stroll

After the first few corners it was business as usual and the promise that qualifying gave soon evaporated.  Hamilton didn't have the grip at the start and Verstappen overtook him and raced off into the distance while managing his tyres.   Norris ultimately had a brilliant race to get a distant P2.   Perez did what he could with the fastest car on the grid getting to P3.   Mercedes ultimately had a decent race finishing P4 & P6.  Piastri a very solid weekend finishing P5. Ferraris best of the rest.  Very disappointing for the Alfa Romeos getting poor starts and Zhou dropping towards the back and causing various incidents.  Ricciardo was caught up in  the mayhem but had a good recovery drive finishing ahead of Tsunoda in P13 (cf. P15). Disappointingly Hulkenberg finished out of the points starting P10 - finishing p14 ahead of "bad season" K-Mag in P17.   Albon decent race finishing just outside of the points in P11.

All in all, another boring race. Perez somehow gets driver of the day for finishing 35 seconds behind his teammate.

Thought Norris and Russell had cracking races but there was practically no action at all after the first lap.

Interesting quotes (paraphrased) on factors determining grid position.

Ricciardo post race wrote:... obviously the alphaTauri is operating at a lower level of grip than the front cars.  We just need to find some overall downforce.   If we can chip away at increasing downforce then we can move up the grid.

Hamilton post qualification wrote:.... all the drivers here are exceptional and a huge part of the differences we see is having confidence in the vehicle that you're driving.  When you lose that confidence you shed a lot of time because you don't want to put the car into the wall.

Verstappen post qualification wrote: In answer to the question of finding nearly a second between Q2 and Q3 I cannot tell you the reason because the car was too inconsistent however in Q3 the car suddenly gripped up a little better and because of that I was able to go faster.

Given engine power and car weights it seems the main difference in overall speed is downforce (grip, aerodynamics) and car stability (driver confidence to push the car, mechanics & aerodynamics).

We all saw the Merc come alive in the late stages of the race and in Q3, when the car is at its lightest.

Interesting.

Maybe. Probably more inclined to believe this is just a strong track for the mercedes package. Last year was much the same

McLaren being fast here and silverstone is a stronger sign

Verstappen has a 5 place grid penalty for this weekends Belgian GP. The Dutchman has taken a fifth gearbox.

Can the last person still employed at alpine remember to turn off the lights

Renault will pull the plug soon. That team shows little signs of ever returning to the former glories for Schumacher and Alonso.

If Porsche wanted they could make a low ball offer for a team, under various guises, has 4 WDC and 3 WCC.

Verstappen fastest in qualifying but will start 6th on Sunday.

LeClerc
Perez
Hamilton
Sainz
Piastri
Verstappen
Norris
Russell
Alonso
Stroll

Max Verstappen saves the best till last as he takes pole for the sprint.

Verstappen
Piastri- this is a special talent
Sainz
LeClerc
Norris
Gasly
Perez
Ocon
Russell

Max Verstappen wins the Belgian GP Sprint.

1. Verstappen
2. Piastri
3. Gasly
4. Sainz
5. LeClerc
6. Norris
7. Hamilton - received 5 sec pen for hitting Perez
8. Russell

Alonso crashed out. Perez retired a 2 laps after incident with Hamilton.

Nonsense penalty

It seems comments about Zak Brown's ineptitude are not aging well.

I have to say watching Verstappen-Red Bull seemingly winning every single sprint race, main race and getting the fastest lap by huge margins is not particularly enjoyable. Often he is on pole, leads every lap, then has time to do an extra pit stop at the end to get the point for fastest lap.

I know I should be marveling at the brilliance of Red Bull for outperforming teams with a huge car manufacturer behind them and also marveling at the outright brilliance of Verstappen but seeing the same thing every race weekend with Verstappen sailing off into the distance after turn one or turn two of the first lap gives me a feeling of deja vu. Early in the season there was hope that at least this could be a two horse race with team-mate Perez challenging, but time has shown again Perez is nowhere in Verstappens league.

So my interest in F1 is currently sustained by looking down the order and seeing the competition there. Currently I am enjoying seeing McLaren raising their game and now challenging for podium positions. They have a very exciting line up of Norris and Piastri. Some are saying that Piastri had the best junior level set of results than others (Norris, Russell, Leclerc) winning all feeder series he was in and could be a next generational great.

I would like to see Williams doing well and a few races back Williams looked like they had made a step forward where they began challenging to finish in the points position (p9-p10). Hulkenberg has been massively outperforming k-mag and sometimes gets himself into a position to finish P10. Shame about DeVries but it brings in some interest in seeing whether Ricciardo can get some points and outperform Tsunoda.

It must be frustrating for Ferrari supporters. Frederic Vasseur seems like a nice guy and I hope he is able to sort things out there. Aston Martin from having a good start to the season have fallen back. Mercedes are always not quite good enough but it is interesting seeing Hamilton reasserting himself over young gun Russell. Alpines have gone backward and that has forced an intervention with the sudden sacking of Team Principal Otmar Szafnauer. I suppose the way he handled Alonso and Piastri contracts played a part - with Piastri it turned into a fiasco. Then this years car is just not very good and the final straw must be the race management which sees the Alpines crashing into each other or a wall nearly every race.

Max Verstappen wins his 8th consecutive race - only Ascari and Vettel remain ahead of the Dutchman. 45th career win, 12th in a row from the start of the season for Red Bull and 13th in a row in total.

1. Verstappen
2. Perez
3. LeClerc
4. Hamilon + FL
5. Alonso
6. Russell
7. Norris
8. Ocon
9. Stroll
10. Tsunoda

No name Bertie wrote: I have to say watching Verstappen-Red Bull seemingly winning every single sprint race, main race and getting the fastest lap by huge margins is not particularly enjoyable.  Often he is on pole, leads every lap, then has time to do an extra pit stop at the end to get the point for fastest lap.  

I know I should be marveling at the brilliance of Red Bull for outperforming teams with a huge car manufacturer behind them and also marveling at the outright brilliance of Verstappen but seeing the same thing every race weekend with Verstappen sailing off into the distance after turn one or turn two of the first lap gives me a feeling of deja vu.   Early in the season there was hope that at least this could be a two horse race with team-mate Perez challenging, but time has shown again Perez is nowhere in Verstappens league.  

So my interest in F1 is currently sustained by looking down the order and seeing the competition there.  Currently I am enjoying seeing McLaren raising their game and now challenging for podium positions.  They have a very exciting line up of Norris and Piastri.  Some are saying that Piastri had the best junior level set of results than others (Norris, Russell, Leclerc) winning all feeder series he was in and could be a next generational great.  

I would like to see Williams doing well and a few races back Williams looked like they had made a step forward where they began challenging to finish in the points position (p9-p10).   Hulkenberg has been massively outperforming k-mag and sometimes gets himself into a position to finish P10.   Shame about DeVries but it brings in some interest in seeing whether Ricciardo can get some points and outperform Tsunoda.

It must be frustrating for Ferrari supporters.  Frederic Vasseur seems like a nice guy and I hope he is able to sort things out there.  Aston Martin from having a good start to the season have fallen back.  Mercedes are always not quite good enough but it is interesting seeing Hamilton reasserting himself over young gun Russell.   Alpines have gone backward and that has forced an intervention with the sudden sacking of Team Principal Otmar Szafnauer.  I suppose the way he handled Alonso and Piastri contracts played a part - with Piastri it turned into a fiasco.  Then this years car is just not very good and the final straw must be the race management which sees the Alpines crashing into each other or a wall nearly every race.

Verstappen might win 4/5/6/7 titles - but we might be seeing his absolute peak at this moment. Granted you can win championships without being in absolute beast mode. But the current level of Verstappen is incredible.

Jeff Navarro wrote:...
Verstappen might win 4/5/6/7 titles - but we might be seeing his absolute peak at this moment. Granted you can win championships without being in absolute beast mode. But the current level of Verstappen is incredible.

Undoubtedly helps that the car is an absolute rocket ship, but Max is certainly driving it well also (and markedly faster than some pretty good team mates). Can't remember which couple of years Merc enjoyed a similar dominance, but certainly Hamilton picked up a couple of relatively 'easy' world titles courtesy of a dominant car - doesn't mean either of them aren't great drivers, just some WDCs are easier to win than others.

Daniel Ricciardo crashed fp2 at the Dutch GP and has a broken wrist.
Liam Lawson makes F1 debut.
At present Ricciardo’s recovery period is undetermined.

dummy_half wrote:

Jeff Navarro wrote:...
Verstappen might win 4/5/6/7 titles - but we might be seeing his absolute peak at this moment. Granted you can win championships without being in absolute beast mode. But the current level of Verstappen is incredible.

Undoubtedly helps that the car is an absolute rocket ship, but Max is certainly driving it well also (and markedly faster than some pretty good team mates). Can't remember which couple of years Merc enjoyed a similar dominance, but certainly Hamilton picked up a couple of relatively 'easy' world titles courtesy of a dominant car - doesn't mean either of them aren't great drivers, just some WDCs are easier to win than others.

Unless Red Bull drops the ball in 2024-25, or they add another top dog aside Verstappen, seems like the die has been cast for this set of rules.

And yeah maybe easy championships - but that’s not Verstappen’s issue. Just as it wasn’t Hamilton or Schumacher’a issue previously.

Max Verstappen took a dominate pole in Zandvoort, some 0.6 clear of second place. Qualifying took place in changing conditions and only the final runs in Q3 were with dry tyres.

Verstappen
Norris
Russell
Albon
Alonso
Sainz Jr
Perez
Piastri
LeClerc
Sargeant

Lewis Hamilton down in 13th after a disjointed error in qualifying.

Logan Sargeant is sh!t...

Max Verstappen wins the Dutch Grand Prix - historic 9th consecutive win for the Dutchman.

Somewhat wild race. Rainy and then at the end absolute hammering down.

1. Verstappen
2. Alonso + FL
3. Gasly
4. Perez - 5 sec penalty lost him a podium.
5. Sainz Jr
6. Hamilton
7. Norris
8. Albon
9. Piastri
10. Ocon

Seems like no one has much interest in F1 anymore, as such I bit you lot farewell

It was a Sunday, then a bank holiday, precious.

Fantastic race today. Full of drama.

No idea how Perez escaped without a penalty for shunting Albon out of the points.

He got 5 seconds for it, just didn't make any difference to his finishing positon

Oh that's my bad, then. Didn't see that.

Was refreshing to not have RB up front. Made for a much more exciting race.

Really felt for George! Obviously the 2 Mercedes were trying to get 2nd & 3rd but kind of felt that George was having to attack & defend at the same time.

That's racing, I guess. Lewis clearly had a lot more pace and was being held up.

Those mistakes really are what separate WDC drivers from very good drivers.

Normal service has resumed, I suppose. Certainly not a classic Suzuka race.

Perez looks shot. Some of his driving since the break has been downright dangerous.

Pr4wn wrote:Normal service has resumed, I suppose. Certainly not a classic Suzuka race.

Perez looks shot. Some of his driving since the break has been downright dangerous.

The attempted overtake of Magnussen was embarrassing - I think RB should promote Danny Ric for 2024, and have Lawson in that other AlphaTauri seat

To be fair, Magnussen definitely got in the way of Checo's lock-up.

Max Verstappen joins the legend of the game, as he wins his third world championship in the Qatar sprint.

Oscar Piastri wins the Qatar sprint, the hype was real. Norris took third.

I won’t be doing F1 updates again until 2026.

Perez must surely be done after this season. Lapped by his teammate in Qatar.

If the rivals close the gap next season, Checo could end up costing RB the constructors'.

Pr4wn wrote:Perez must surely be done after this season. Lapped by his teammate in Qatar.

If the rivals close the gap next season, Checo could end up costing RB the constructors'.

I don't disagree with your other points, but he didn't actually finish a lap down. Max lapping Perez happened before Max's last stop

Pr4wn wrote:Perez must surely be done after this season. Lapped by his teammate in Qatar.

If the rivals close the gap next season, Checo could end up costing RB the constructors'.

Surely the logical thing for Red Bull to do is call up Riccardo to that 2nd seat, and let Lawson/Tsunoda battle it out at AlphaTauri for the long term #2 at RB

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely the logical thing for Red Bull to do is call up Riccardo to that 2nd seat, and let Lawson/Tsunoda battle it out at AlphaTauri for the long term #2 at RB

I remain unconvinced by Ricciardo's ability to perform at that level though.

The only reason he's in AT is Perez insurance. It's beginning to look like that's needed sooner than later honestly.

Of all the candidates, he's at least been there and performed opposite Max in the second car, even if it was a while ago. Given how brutal the second RB seat has been, that probably counts for a lot

Marky wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely the logical thing for Red Bull to do is call up Riccardo to that 2nd seat, and let Lawson/Tsunoda battle it out at AlphaTauri for the long term #2 at RB

I remain unconvinced by Ricciardo's ability to perform at that level though.

I would have reservations too, but they need to do something. It's not like it's going to get worse than what Checo has offered up this year