F1 2023 season

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Chinese Grand Prix is officially cancelled again.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Marky wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely the logical thing for Red Bull to do is call up Riccardo to that 2nd seat, and let Lawson/Tsunoda battle it out at AlphaTauri for the long term #2 at RB

I remain unconvinced by Ricciardo's ability to perform at that level though.

I would have reservations too, but they need to do something. It's not like it's going to get worse than what Checo has offered up this year

I don't know that they need to do anything. He obviously has to improve, but at the same time, he's still P2 in the Championship, was P3 last year, Max won the Drivers Championship again and Red Bull won the Constructors Championship again.

2017 to 2020, Mercedes and Lewis did the double four years in a row. Bottas was 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 2nd in those Championships. And was miles short of Lewis. They didn't replace him (although Lewis might have won the 2021 WDC with a competent teammate...)

Marky wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Marky wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely the logical thing for Red Bull to do is call up Riccardo to that 2nd seat, and let Lawson/Tsunoda battle it out at AlphaTauri for the long term #2 at RB

I remain unconvinced by Ricciardo's ability to perform at that level though.

I would have reservations too, but they need to do something. It's not like it's going to get worse than what Checo has offered up this year

I don't know that they need to do anything. He obviously has to improve, but at the same time, he's still P2 in the Championship, was P3 last year, Max won the Drivers Championship again and Red Bull won the Constructors Championship again.

2017 to 2020, Mercedes and Lewis did the double four years in a row. Bottas was 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 2nd in those Championships. And was miles short of Lewis. They didn't replace him (although Lewis might have won the 2021 WDC with a competent teammate...)

Well that's what they should be trying to get out ahead of (and what Merc didn't do!) - it's a tough one to balance for sure. But if anybody was anywhere near RB this year, Perez (like Bottas in 2021 mainly, and unlike himself in 2021!) has been pretty useless, and isn't seemingly getting any better. Just feels like a natural time to move on I think

I think the problem is this is getting worse not better. It might not be an issue now but it could well be in the future

To both of you, I just don't see how Ricciardo short term instead of Perez makes a difference. He's not been good enough since he left Renault (aside from one weekend at Monza in 2021).

I'm all for Tsunoda and Lawson fighting it out to replace Perez long term, but replacing Perez with Ricciardo just for the sake of it doesn't make sense to me. Especially when the underperforming Perez is still ahead of the rest of the grid in the Championship.

RB just want a dependable #2 at this point. Doesn't really matter this season given the car advantage, but it's hard to make the case that's Perez given he's been on the podium 4 times in 12 races at this point, while his teammate has won 11 times.

Be one thing if Perez was slower than Maz and competing with the next best team but often times he's not even in that ballpark. That becomes an issue if the regulations take hold and the gap closes with RB getting less development time than anyone else due to their constructors win. (For reference, McLaren were not that far off competing for the race win in Qatar, mostly they screwed quali with track limits)

Bottas example stands as why you should probably not settle for constructors titles in a bad car because you might need a good second driver in time.

Danny Ric may or may not be an upgrade (or even a big one) but he's a known quantity, knows how the hierarchy in the team works and would struggle to be worse than Perez has been since Miami. But he also has the side benefit of getting Lawson in the AT

Perez is also a known quantity, this is arguably the first time he's not been in form since the Force India days.

Maybe but it's hard to understate how brutally bad it's been. He's completely crumbled and it only seems to be getting worse

He's 30 points ahead of Hamilton, and 41 points ahead of Alonso, with only 5 races left. If he keeps 2nd place in the Championship, he'll get the Winter to recharge and they'll see how he goes next year.

If he doesn't keep 2nd, as much as I'd still keep him rather than just chuck Ricciardo in, I fear for him keeping his seat.

The guy consistently struggles to even reach Q3 since the other teams have put in their upgrades. The vast majority of that championship lead over the pack was built up at the beginning of the season when Max was winning by 30 seconds almost every race.

Pr4wn wrote:The guy consistently struggles to even reach Q3 since the other teams have put in their upgrades. The vast majority of that championship lead over the pack was built up at the beginning of the season when Max was winning by 30 seconds almost every race.

But also, you judge a driver by the season, not by part of the season. I agree he needs to improve, and you aren't wrong about his struggles, but I also think it's harsh to have him lose his seat based on a poor 2nd half of 2023, despite a good 2021, 2022 and 1st half of 2023. If he's this bad in 2024 he's out, but I think he's got enough credit in the bank to at least get the chance in 2024

Marky wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:The guy consistently struggles to even reach Q3 since the other teams have put in their upgrades. The vast majority of that championship lead over the pack was built up at the beginning of the season when Max was winning by 30 seconds almost every race.

But also, you judge a driver by the season, not by part of the season. I agree he needs to improve, and you aren't wrong about his struggles, but I also think it's harsh to have him lose his seat based on a poor 2nd half of 2023, despite a good 2021, 2022 and 1st half of 2023. If he's this bad in 2024 he's out, but I think he's got enough credit in the bank to at least get the chance in 2024

I'm not saying it would be right for him to lose his seat per se. RB are not exactly known for giving their drivers time to improve. Look at de Vries.

What's most worrying is that it seems like his confidence is completely shot and even his Horner and his engineer (who have both previously defended him) aren't bothering any more.

I saw today that Helmut has kinda said he has two more races. What he actually said was "see how the next two races go", but I think we all know what he really means

If Checo can't deliver in Mexico, he's got no chance. I think he'll do okay in COTA though.

Paddock talk is that Red Bull (Christian Horner) would like to have Lando Norris in the second Red Bull seat.  When questioned directly on it Horner said Norris had a contract with McLaren and he then mentioned that Piastri also had a contract with McLaren.   It seems that if they get rid of Checo soon then they will put a stop gap into the second seat.  Tsunoda is not good enough (a Honda sponsored driver) but I would guess Ricciardo would be the stop-gap but in recent years he hasn't been impressive.   I think ideally they would like Perez to up his game - Horner said it was concerning to see Perez recent "slump" in form.

Tremendous qualifying tonight, and the potential for a really good race on Sunday.

1. Leclerc
2. Norris
3. Hamilton
4. Sainz
5. Russell
6. Verstappen

Can't not lump on a Max win though.

A fun race in the end, although a couple of late night DSQ's as well for Hamilton (P2) and Leclerc (P6) for the plank under the car being too worn down and under the technical regulations

Top 10;

1. Verstappen
2. Norris
3. Sainz
4. Perez
5. Russell
6. Gasly
7. Stroll (from a Pit Lane start!)
8. Tsunoda (& Fastest Lap)
9. Albon
10. Sargeant (First points finish and in his home race)

Only four cars were tested post-race:  P1 (Verstappen), P2 (Hamilton), P3 (Norris), P6 (Leclerc).    All others cars were not tested and hence were not disqualified including Sainz promoted to P3 and  Russell promoted to P5.   One of the problems of Sprint Race Weekends is that the set up is more or less set after one hour of testing (FP1) with no further changes allowed to the car set up after Friday qualifying.   With the track a little more bumpy than last season some teams were caught out by excessive wear on the underfloor skid blocks.

Good to see both Albon & Sargeant promoted into the points but the second place in the drivers championship has more or less gone to an under performing Perez who gained an extra 20 points over Hamilton due to the disqualification - with the points difference going from 19 to 39 points with only four races to go.

Vegas GP off to a flier

FP1 cancelled after 9 minutes due to Sainz and Ocon's cars dragging up manhole covers and causing severe damage (especially to Sainz's car)

FP2 "delayed" although it's gone midnight local time, so I'm not convinced they'll be able to run it

As I sent that, F1 confirmed on Twitter that a 90 minute FP2 will begin at 2am local time (10am UK time) subject to local circuit engineering team completing the necessary track works.

Just as well they didn't sign some kind of 10 year contract or anything...

The upshot really is the high speed test doesn't accurately reflect the ground effect cars. Whether that's possible without an F1 car is the question and I can't see the teams volunteering one.

It's unfortunate but it something that's probably hard to anticipate as with Baku 2019 and Malaysia 2017. As I understood they were sealed shut then the downforce generated by the floor pulled them out anyway

Yep, although I read they were sealed with concrete rather than welded which wont have helped.

I see Carlos Sainz has a grid penalty for new engine components, because there's nothing in the rules suggesting he could take an extra engine even if the damage was caused by the track

Yeah they need to address that part over the winter. Should obviously be allowed to replace parts in the pool in this scenario.

Looking at the remains of the cover is wild the amount of force these cars produced from the underfloor. The frame of the cover is fully sheared off. Questions for the FIA as to whether their tests are representative enough I guess.

but rather unfortunate it happened at their new big event

Hamilton to join Ferrari in 2025.

Rumours at the moment. I am guessing that he's not happy with the latest Merc if this has come out though. Nice little swansong pay day for him if it comes off.

Sainz to Merc? Albon?

Mr Bounce wrote:Rumours at the moment. I am guessing that he's not happy with the latest Merc if this has come out though. Nice little swansong pay day for him if it comes off.

Sainz to Merc? Albon?

No, confirmed earlier by Sky Sports.

Oakdene wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Rumours at the moment. I am guessing that he's not happy with the latest Merc if this has come out though. Nice little swansong pay day for him if it comes off.

Sainz to Merc? Albon?

No, confirmed earlier by Sky Sports.

Apparently there's going to be a Mercedes press conference later.

I reckon the clamour for the Mercedes second seat will send the silly season into overdrive now!

I think it'll be;

Lewis to Ferrari
Lando to Mercedes
Carlos back to McLaren

If Carlos doesn't go to Merc, I expect Toto to go after Alex Albon, or possibly Esteban Ocon (as he used to manage him and rates him highly).

A few rumours they're very keen on Andrea Kimi Antonelli, who is debuting for them in F2 this year

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:A few rumours they're very keen on Andrea Kimi Antonelli, who is debuting for them in F2 this year

I think they'd just do what they've done with everyone else though (should he tear up F2), get him a drive at a lower team and prove himself like they did with Russell.

Lewis Hamilton will always make headlines and interest for Formula1.   I always thought that Hamilton driving for Ferrari would be a marketing dream.  Leclerc is a great driver and so is Sainz, but Hamilton knows how to win.  I think Hamilton is more of an instinctual driver rather than a driver that gets into the fine detail of engineering / team development.

ps: Lewis Hamilton staying at Mercedes has also been dependent on the commitment of Toto Wolf to Mercedes.   If Toto Wolf plans to give up his principal role at Mercedes I can see that Hamilton would have been easier to move to another team.

pps: A further factor to consider is the pairing of Hamilton with Russell. Some have suggested it was "toxic" in the sense that Russell would never act as a wingman to Hamilton.  Peter Windsor, a great analyser of F1 in my opinion, didn't think it would work.  In 2023 there was a collision between the two and times when Hamilton was stuck behind Russell, even though they were on different strategies and Hamilton appeared to be the faster of the two.

Christian Horner's trial today.

So much Netflix content and the season hasn't even started yet

Pr4wn wrote:The guy consistently struggles to even reach Q3 since the other teams have put in their upgrades. The vast majority of that championship lead over the pack was built up at the beginning of the season when Max was winning by 30 seconds almost every race.

At least those days are over.