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[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 07 Jan 2023, 1:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

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Post by Geordie Fri 10 Feb 2023, 6:19 pm

Josh Hodge is more like Balshaw...

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 10 Feb 2023, 6:29 pm

That 6N when Balshaw burst on the scene was something special! Never quite fully delivered him early potential though perhaps?

Interesting side, not overly against it. Wings still seem odd though.....I think we have much better options. Malins glaring lack of acceleration and inability to beat a man is baffling really....but, I feel more confident Borthwick has an idea what he's doing than Ej who had seemingly lost the plot.

I hope Willis proves me wrong...I really do, as he has a different skill set to other options. I just think he lacks the pace and carrying game we need. Similar with Dombrandt, who needs to start clicking as he's looking a bit of a luxury player so far and we can't afford to carry players.

Overall....really looking forward to a great weekend of rugby and the missus is away so I'll get to really indulge!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 10 Feb 2023, 6:32 pm

Geordie wrote:Josh Hodge is more like Balshaw...

I can see that comparison GF.....plus they look a little alike!

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Post by Collapse2005 Fri 10 Feb 2023, 7:39 pm

I reckon England will win fairly comfortably against Italy particularly with Farrell at 10 and Lawrence at 12. Decent team selection and Borthwick is a smart guy so would be quite surprised if he doesn’t turn things around soon enough. Italy are decent but they are never as good nor bad as the media makes them out to be. France also made them look better than they really are in my view. It will be a 21 plus points win for England. Look forward to seeing Arundel get another chance.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 10 Feb 2023, 7:52 pm

Agree with the consensus, generally like the side with a few reservations and concerns.
To start light, I would have preferred Steward to take a game off as a prudent load management step. Yes, I know that is a joke in Rugby terms, but still.

Would have preferred to see Ribbans on the bench instead of Isiekwe. I think Ribbans offers a bit more physicality as well as ball skills.

My big concern are the wings. OHC gained a bunch of yards last weekend, but despite that was completely invisible. Did nothing. Contributed nothing. Which was still better than Malins.

Malins simply can't defend his position. The tries he scored last weekend were scores any decent player could score. The catch of the kick was right in the breadbasket, almost impossible to screw up.


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Post by mountain man Fri 10 Feb 2023, 7:55 pm

Think that's a bit harsh, Malins caught ball at pace and took try really well.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 10 Feb 2023, 8:00 pm

Sorry mate, I disagree. It was cupcake.

By the way, THIS is a catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gSkcq0YjmI

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Feb 2023, 8:04 pm

Now that it's confirmed Ribbans is off to France I kinda get him being left out. Quite surprised that Simmonds has been in the squad at all over Mercer for the same reason.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 10 Feb 2023, 8:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Now that it's confirmed Ribbans is off to France I kinda get him being left out. Quite surprised that Simmonds has been in the squad at all over Mercer for the same reason.
I guess yes and no about Ribbans. If our horizon is to win the next game and through the RWC then I don't understand why he is left out. If beyond, then no issue. Regarding Mercer, he has been one of the best back rows in France. Gotta find a way to get him in the squad. I like Simmonds, but he just hasn't stamped his presence on a game for England. Shame.

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Post by Sharkey06 Fri 10 Feb 2023, 11:55 pm

Mercer would be available for all the games, but not for the pre tournament training weeks, or rest weeks inbetween games. Plus he would have to be an exceptional case to be allowed under the RFU rules. Seeing as there are plenty of qualified 8's available, I can't see any exceptional case justification.

I think we need to concentrate on the 2023 World Cup and who is available, not worry about who may or may not be available for the 2027 World Cup. Simmonds is available now and through to the 2023 World Cup as is Ribbans. On a playing point though, I can't see why Simmonds was picked if Borthwick has no intention of playing him. He can cover 6 to 8 from the bench, whereas Borthwick seems to prefer Earl as the bench cover. I think this is harsh on Earl who has been the form 7 in the premiership for the last season and a half. If I was Earl I would be unhappy about Sale's second choice 7 being picked ahead of me for the Scotland game and Willis who was not in the squad for the Scotland game being picked ahead of me for the Italy game. Seems like he is being punished for being versatile, rather than rewarded for his club performances.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sat 11 Feb 2023, 10:44 am

I was not surprised to see Smith make way for Farrell at 10 as Farrell but i do feel its a bit too much of a conservative approach. Personally, I feel you unlock Italy with a fast positive approach and that is something that Smith offers at 10 more than Farrell. Understand that England lost to Scotland but think they are showing Italy a bit too much respect.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 11 Feb 2023, 11:00 am

Sharkey06 wrote:Mercer would be available for all the games, but not for the pre tournament training weeks, or rest weeks inbetween games.  Plus he would have to be an exceptional case to be allowed under the RFU rules.  Seeing as there are plenty of qualified 8's available, I can't see any exceptional case justification.

I think we need to concentrate on the 2023 World Cup and who is available, not worry about who may or may not be available for the 2027 World Cup.  Simmonds is available now and through to the 2023 World Cup as is Ribbans.  On a playing point though, I can't see why Simmonds was picked if Borthwick has no intention of playing him.  He can cover 6 to 8 from the bench, whereas Borthwick seems to prefer Earl as the bench cover.  I think this is harsh on Earl who has been the form 7 in the premiership for the last season and a half.  If I was Earl I would be unhappy about Sale's second choice 7 being picked ahead of me for the Scotland game and Willis who was not in the squad for the Scotland game being picked ahead of me for the Italy game.  Seems like he is being punished for being versatile, rather than rewarded for his club performances.

Ben Curry was the form 7 from the Prem coming into the tournament. His brother playing 6 to accommodate Ben who was also Sale's captain. I quite liked that Borthwick rewarded that form there once Tom Curry was injured.

Ben Earl handily covers 7 and 8 from the bench but I agree with Borthwick we need a dedicated fetcher at 7 and Ben Curry didn't offer that enough Vs Scotland and Earl isn't as good at that as Willis is. Earl is a really good link player though so should bring plenty of impact off the bench. It's one part of the selection I can't really fault.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 11 Feb 2023, 11:03 am

eirebilly_01 wrote:I was not surprised to see Smith make way for Farrell at 10 as Farrell but i do feel its a bit too much of a conservative approach. Personally, I feel you unlock Italy with a fast positive approach and that is something that Smith offers at 10 more than Farrell. Understand that England lost to Scotland but  think they are showing Italy a bit too much respect.

If we had a more settled back line I think we'd have gone Smith but we don't. We've got a 13 playing 12 and a young scrum half. Now the young scrum half has generally looked to the manor born but even so the stability we should get from Farrell at 10 should settle everything down a bit.

Smith is a very good talent and who is maturing but he is still a bit impetuous and likes to hit the gamble button at times he shouldn't. Hopefully he comes on and gets a good 25 mins running the show tomorrow without Farrell at 12 though even without the handbrake he's not always looked good.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 11 Feb 2023, 5:40 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That 6N when Balshaw burst on the scene was something special! Never quite fully delivered him early potential though perhaps?
He was much better wing than fullback at international level. Due to England's strength at wing he got shifted to 15 though from memory and wasn't quite the same. He had some injuries too.

That casual, gliding running style made him standout when on a clean break. Little aesthetic things like that don't add to a players effectiveness but can certainly make them more memorable! I always though Rocokoco being a bit more heralded than Howlett at their peaks were a good example of that. I thought they were similarly incredible talents and players. Rocokoco had that incredible step that just looked awesome though whereas Howlett was more pin your ears back, run like you're being chased by a bear.

Lewsey and Robinson were the real key to the consistency of England's back three in that era. Both brilliant at wing and fullback. It gave England such solidity at the back even when injuries struck. Cohen of course played a key role and had a very high if shorter peak. Robinson and Lewsey were the rocks that could interchange between wing and fullback fluidly depending on tactics though.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 11 Feb 2023, 6:49 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:That 6N when Balshaw burst on the scene was something special! Never quite fully delivered him early potential though perhaps?
He was much better wing than fullback at international level. Due to England's strength at wing he got shifted to 15 though from memory and wasn't quite the same. He had some injuries too.

That casual, gliding running style made him standout when on a clean break. Little aesthetic things like that don't add to a players effectiveness but can certainly make them more memorable! I always though Rocokoco being a bit more heralded than Howlett at their peaks were a good example of that. I thought they were similarly incredible talents and players. Rocokoco had that incredible step that just looked awesome though whereas Howlett was more pin your ears back, run like you're being chased by a bear.

Lewsey and Robinson were the real key to the consistency of England's back three in that era. Both brilliant at wing and fullback. It gave England such solidity at the back even when injuries struck. Cohen of course played a key role and had a very high if shorter peak. Robinson and Lewsey were the rocks that could interchange between wing and fullback fluidly depending on tactics though.
Robinson, Cohen, and Lewsey comprised on of the best three units I have seen. Wasn't just the skills, and each was different from the other, it's ow they worked together. Excellent and very complimentary players.

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Post by Geordie Sat 11 Feb 2023, 10:02 pm

England really need to put on a good performance tomorrow having seen the games today.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 9:28 am

I'd take a comfortable win the attack looking cohesive for a bit more of the game and an improved maul. For once this should be a game where England get credit for beating Italy.

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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 10:37 am

They simply have to win and win well...controlling the game.

They need to put a marker down...

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Post by mountain man Sun 12 Feb 2023, 10:44 am

Cracking 6N so far, all games been superb in one way or another.

Pressure on England today, a loss be pretty disasterous.

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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 12:37 pm

Key aspects I'm looking at in particular:
Chessum to continue where he left off last week.

Sinckler to continue the huge improvement he showed last week.

Itoje to turn up the performance

The midfields performance in attack and defence.

Willis to really show what he's capable of...unfair but it almost feels like it's last chance saloon for him..

Dombrandt to catch the ball

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Post by mountain man Sun 12 Feb 2023, 12:50 pm

Itoje needs a big game, he's been way off best for some time now.

Slade needs to show he's worth place as last season didn't convince for England. He's a class player but for Eng been under par for me.

Farrell needs to show he's worth starting at 10 both is open play plus he's needs to make kicks.

OHC and Malins need to improve on last week, Malins took his tries well but defence not great. OHC didn't show anything.

JvP needs to regain confidence and game from last year.

Other than that, it's a doddle...

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Post by lostinwales Sun 12 Feb 2023, 1:18 pm

OHC second highest metres last week after Steward in a lot less attempts. He did OK. Not amazing but I really don't get the dissatisfaction. He did look for work. Defensively he only made 2 tackles Malins in contrast made 6 tackles but missed 4...

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 12 Feb 2023, 2:05 pm

Geordie wrote:Key aspects I'm looking at in particular:
Chessum to continue where he left off last week.

Sinckler to continue the huge improvement he showed last week.

Itoje to turn up the performance

The midfields performance in attack and defence.

Willis to really show what he's capable of...unfair but it almost feels like it's last chance saloon for him..

Dombrandt to catch the ball

I wish I was Dombrandt, we went to Cape Verde 10 days ago, caught a virus (unlike Dombrandt, I can catch most things) and had to be repatriated after 4 days, felt like I was trying to turn my lungs inside out.
Managed to see the Eng/Scot game though, I was disappointed, but I think there are signs that we may come good quite quickly. I would like to see a complete swap at half time or soon after and replace Farrell with Smith, lets see what both can do against the same side. I am not sure about either winger to tbh, both have weaknesses that are easy to exploit, OH-C has positional issues and is not good enought returning deep kicks, Malins has the other weaknesses, can't tackle and is too slow off the mark, he is not quick when flat out compared to the others.

The pack is about right, but Itoje is using up his banked credit very fast, there are a lot of good young locks out there. It was good to see Ludlam showing why I think he is one of the best backrowers we have (amongst many), his whirling dervish style of play tends to distract from what he is doing in making those yards and tackles, underrated lineout operator as well. Last week Malins got ahead of him, but he was able to accelerate to catch up and get a very lateral pass away for the first try.

If Dombrandt is as last week all butter fingers and lacking penetration ball in hand, I would want to see Earl on early, Ludlam move to 8 and Willis to 6, that would be an interesting back row.
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Post by doctor_grey Sun 12 Feb 2023, 2:49 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:If Dombrandt is as last week all butter fingers and lacking penetration ball in hand, I would want to see Earl on early, Ludlam move to 8 and Willis to 6, that would be an interesting back row.
That would be an all-action back row.  A real pain in the posterior to play against.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 12 Feb 2023, 3:26 pm

Even when Itoje is not playing to his potential he's still one of the best players we have. There is a tendency to measure such guys against a much more demanding scale than we would measure less prominent players.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 12 Feb 2023, 4:02 pm

I’m hoping England lose today. Not because I’m anti-English or anything… lose this and that sets up an epic wooden spoon decider between England and Wales.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 12 Feb 2023, 4:23 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m hoping England lose today. Not because I’m anti-English or anything… lose this and that sets up an epic wooden spoon decider between England and Wales.

I do want to see Italy win the 6N one year, just never the current one

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 4:49 pm

10 mins to kick off. I have to say that I can't see England losing this but I think it will not be easy for them.

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Post by Heaf Sun 12 Feb 2023, 4:52 pm

I wish I had your confidence .... but whatever happens I hope we don't see a red card deciding it ...

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Post by Duty281 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 4:57 pm

If Italy get out of the blocks quick they have a real chance of winning this.

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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:04 pm

Some good counter rucking by England...

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:06 pm

Geordie wrote:Some good counter rucking by England...

2 missed turnover opportunities for me. Italy committed nobody and England really should have turned them over.

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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:09 pm

Another knock on by Dombrandt

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:11 pm

Going to be a long day scrum wise...

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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:14 pm

Yes Jack....not just a jackler

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:14 pm

Think that was a poor call by the ref, should have been a penalty to Italy.

Anyways, bad defending by Italy and England score.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:16 pm

Last time Willis scored a try against Italy, he went on to suffer a significant injury. Here's hoping that doesn't happen again.

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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:18 pm

eirebilly_01 wrote:Think that was a poor call by the ref, should have been a penalty to Italy.

Anyways, bad defending by Italy and England score.
First player went over the ball and had hands on ground. Penalty

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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:18 pm

England's tackling is brutal

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:21 pm

*Too* *many* *stupid* *penalties*

When are they going to learn?!
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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:23 pm

Geordie wrote:
eirebilly_01 wrote:Think that was a poor call by the ref, should have been a penalty to Italy.

Anyways, bad defending by Italy and England score.
First player went over the  ball and had hands on ground. Penalty

Did not look like that for me but fair dues.

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:25 pm

That was fortunate for the Italians, could very easily have been head on head.
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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:26 pm

It's rhe Willis show at the moment

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:28 pm

Whoever it is calling at the breakdown for England is doing a fantastic job, really playing up to the referee.

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Post by Heaf Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:29 pm

Cumbrian wrote:That was fortunate for the Italians, could very easily have been head on head.

Ludlam clearly took a knock to the jaw ...


Last edited by Heaf on Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:29 pm

Geordie wrote:It's rhe Willis show at the moment

He's playing well...try was a gift, but defensively he's been strong. Would still like to see sons form of a carrying game from him.

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:30 pm

Heaf wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:That was fortunate for the Italians, could very easily have been head on head.

Ludlow clearly took a knock to the jaw ...

I'd give the benefit of the doubt and say it was whiplash.
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Post by Heaf Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:31 pm

Loader recently got a red for head on head from whiplash though ...

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Post by Geordie Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:32 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Geordie wrote:It's rhe Willis show at the moment

He's playing well...try was a gift, but defensively he's been strong. Would still like to see sons form of a carrying game from him.

He's been carrying hard Sgt?

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Feb 2023, 5:32 pm

All that promise Italy showed last week has disappeared. Cynical and stupid so far. England could run up a big score here.

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