Scotland World Cup buildup

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Italy
Saturday 29 July

Scotland v France
Saturday 5 August

France v Scotland
Saturday 12 August

Scotland v Georgia
Saturday 26 August

I think it's only fair to start another thread for this topic because I can see it being a popular topic in terms of discussion .

First things first is that 3 wins from 5 and a 3rd place finish probably exceeded expectations because most would have said 2 wins and the 4th place win, the one that most would have called was England to beat us as they were at home so imho we certainly deserve enormous credit for that one because we played very well against an England team that also had their moments, in fact I could already see improvements from the Eddie Jones era during that game and until DVDM clinched it at the death, I was still pretty worried we wouldn't win so was understandably over the moon that we did win.

The Wales and Italy matches were mixed bags tbh but we did get 5pts from both which was crucial, the Welsh game we didn't really perform first half and were in fact fortunate to go in at half time ahead but second half we were excellent and deserved the bonus point win.  The Italy game was a mixed bag in terms of; we had patches where we did well and others where we were hanging on, such as the last 2mins, I also felt that in that game our top centre pairing of Huwipulotu were quiet in attack though DVDM was a bit more involved that he had been in the previous few weeks before.

The France game was bloody frustrating because we showed glimpses of how well we can play especially in the second half for large parts but we were guilty of missing key opportunities and indiscipline from the captain of all people was our undoing which is where the frustration comes because as fans, we expect our captain to know what the ref will tolerate in terms of backchat!

The Ireland game was a game of 2 halfs, in the first half we were going toe to toe with them, it was probably the best we've played against them in a very long time; second half was a completely different story, we basically just capitalutated and handed the game to them with basic errors and more stupid indiscipline.

In terms of the coach, I have made my feelings known and really hope that the situation is resolved by at least mid to late April as we really need clarity on the situation!

Finally, for the summer warm up matches I'd like to see fringe players like Cameron Henderson, Ben Healy, Stafford McDowall, Kyle Rowe and Ollie Smith get some game time to see what they can offer either at the world cup (unlikely) or next 6N in 2024 .

Steady on Jim, that sounds vaguely like optimism!

jimbopip wrote:We've now reached the stage where 37 become 33. So which four unlucky souls will get to be UK based standby players?

Easy peasy? Murphy Walker and The House Elf. Both will have to wait until they are paying full fare on public transport before playing in a World Cup. Barring injuries or suspensions.

Close but no cigar? Crosbie has looked really barnstorming for the Luvvies but quite anonymous for Scotland. I think he doesn't quite fit in with the high tempo game Toonie wants. There is an outside chance of him being the back up 6 behind Matt F, slim chance.Even slimmer if Mbawza is seen as a 6.

Shock Horror!!!! Two Lions could miss out, probably one will deffo miss out. Hamish is currently third choice 7 behind Darge and Mbawza.  Harris isn't in the 23 for St Étienne and it looks like Shona, Shug and Redpath are certainties with Seaman all over the place as back up wing/13. Do we need another back up 13?

In one sense it really doesn't matter: the stand byes can be in Nice in a few hours. Our games are well spread out so rest days will be plentiful. In another sense, training at home isn't the same as being at the World Cup so motivation could be a problem for some.

My prediction? Walker, Dobie, Crosbie and Hamish miss the plane.

Hamish can't miss the plane. In this RWC I will need my fill of the human pinball on steroids going bananas. Even for 20 minutes a game, which is how I would use him. I don't care if he is on the down side of his career. I will guarantee if he has 20 minutes in each match he can change a game (hopefully for the better). One of my favourite players to watch.

Relax, Hamish will be on the plane!

He and Rory Darge give us the option of a bone fida OS each game.

The match winning turnover that RD won against France last weekend only goes to show the value in having that threat.

doctor_grey wrote:

jimbopip wrote:We've now reached the stage where 37 become 33. So which four unlucky souls will get to be UK based standby players?

Easy peasy? Murphy Walker and The House Elf. Both will have to wait until they are paying full fare on public transport before playing in a World Cup. Barring injuries or suspensions.

Close but no cigar? Crosbie has looked really barnstorming for the Luvvies but quite anonymous for Scotland. I think he doesn't quite fit in with the high tempo game Toonie wants. There is an outside chance of him being the back up 6 behind Matt F, slim chance.Even slimmer if Mbawza is seen as a 6.

Shock Horror!!!! Two Lions could miss out, probably one will deffo miss out. Hamish is currently third choice 7 behind Darge and Mbawza.  Harris isn't in the 23 for St Étienne and it looks like Shona, Shug and Redpath are certainties with Seaman all over the place as back up wing/13. Do we need another back up 13?

In one sense it really doesn't matter: the stand byes can be in Nice in a few hours. Our games are well spread out so rest days will be plentiful. In another sense, training at home isn't the same as being at the World Cup so motivation could be a problem for some.

My prediction? Walker, Dobie, Crosbie and Hamish miss the plane.

Hamish can't miss the plane.  In this RWC I will need my fill of the human pinball on steroids going bananas.  Even for 20 minutes a game, which is how I would use him.  I don't care if he is on the down side of his career.  I will guarantee if he has 20 minutes in each match he can change a game (hopefully for the better).  One of my favourite players to watch.  

Doc, you know I really like your posts and usually agree with your take on things; Darge is way ahead of Hamish at the moment. Fagerson is in the form of his life at 6, or 8 and if Mbawza is to play it is either 6 or 7. Hamish is realistically our third choice 7. I get a feeling that Bayliss' versatility may see him as a better bench option.

Darge is the front runner no doubt

Our best balanced backrow however is surely Ritchie/Dempsey or Fagerson/Darge

With whoever is not picked at No.8 on thr bench

Watson covers Darge for injury and gets a run out against Romania

In the the live game, Ritchie covers OS if Darge gets injured or he is subbed.

I still think we need 2 specialist OS in the squad, it is the most atricious position on the field they are always getting injured!

jimbopip wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

jimbopip wrote:We've now reached the stage where 37 become 33. So which four unlucky souls will get to be UK based standby players?

Easy peasy? Murphy Walker and The House Elf. Both will have to wait until they are paying full fare on public transport before playing in a World Cup. Barring injuries or suspensions.

Close but no cigar? Crosbie has looked really barnstorming for the Luvvies but quite anonymous for Scotland. I think he doesn't quite fit in with the high tempo game Toonie wants. There is an outside chance of him being the back up 6 behind Matt F, slim chance.Even slimmer if Mbawza is seen as a 6.

Shock Horror!!!! Two Lions could miss out, probably one will deffo miss out. Hamish is currently third choice 7 behind Darge and Mbawza.  Harris isn't in the 23 for St Étienne and it looks like Shona, Shug and Redpath are certainties with Seaman all over the place as back up wing/13. Do we need another back up 13?

In one sense it really doesn't matter: the stand byes can be in Nice in a few hours. Our games are well spread out so rest days will be plentiful. In another sense, training at home isn't the same as being at the World Cup so motivation could be a problem for some.

My prediction? Walker, Dobie, Crosbie and Hamish miss the plane.

Hamish can't miss the plane.  In this RWC I will need my fill of the human pinball on steroids going bananas.  Even for 20 minutes a game, which is how I would use him.  I don't care if he is on the down side of his career.  I will guarantee if he has 20 minutes in each match he can change a game (hopefully for the better).  One of my favourite players to watch.  

Doc, you know I really like your posts and usually agree with your take on things; Darge is way ahead of Hamish at the moment. Fagerson is in the form of his life at 6, or 8 and if Mbawza is to play it is either 6 or 7. Hamish is realistically our third choice 7. I get a feeling that Bayliss' versatility may see him as a better bench option.

No question, I like Darge a lot. He is real quality. Can Fagerson sustain his performance? Not every team Scotland play will be as easy to turn over as England.....

Has Watson fell that far off that he can't even be harnessed as an impact sub?

That would be an ecumenical question,doc. If we start Mbawza- Dempsey- Darge then Fagerson covers 6 or 8 with Mbawza to 7 if needed , similarly Bayliss can play across the back row. Hamish is an out and out 7.
If you try to list the possible permutations in order of effectiveness you're five or six in before Hamish ( on current form) appears.

I don't think the signs are good for Watson. Toonie has very clearly said he'll select his strongest squad for this game, and he ain't in it.
 
If Watson isn't going to be in the first 23 I don't see the need for him in the squad over a more versatile backup like Bayliss.

Also when did we last see Hamish put in a performance like we know he can? Probably not since the Lions tour!

You can't do this to me.  After all we have meant to each other.  

Two of my favourite players to watch are Hogg and Hamish, which sounds like the name of a radio show.  You can't take both away from me. Who am I going to watch, Owen freakin' Farrell?

The Hog and Hamish Hour was a BBC Alba pig farmers weekly news and current affairs show broadcast from Muck in the early noughties ,which often featured rather unsettling features on animal husbandry .Mind you, it was still much, much more enjoyable than watching Owen freakin Farrel and his journey to evercome being born sans upper limbs and still earn a living as a professional sportsperson.

I haven't watched the first half from last week again but from first watch Watson made tackles but looked off the pace. Saying that, those young french backs made Graham look slow at one point. I'd still like to think he would sneak into the squad as an experienced back row for Tonga and Romania at least.

As for the final 33 man squad here is my guess at it

Props: Sutherland, Schoe, Bhatti, Nel, Fagerson, Sebastian
Hookers: Turner, Mcinally, Ashman
Locks: Gilchrist, Cummings, Gray, Skinner
Backrow: Darge, Ritchie, Dempsey, Fagerson, Watson, Bayliss
SH: Price, White, Horne
FH: Russell, Healy
Centres: Tuipulotu, Jones, Redpath, Harris
Back Three: VDM, Graham, Kinghorn, Steyn, Smith

Had Christie not been injured I suspect he would have snuck in ahead of Bayliss as Crosbie hasn't been able to show his best club form at internatinal level. Seems so harsh on him because he is obviously a really talented backrower but it is such small margins at top level.

Jeez Jimbo, that is too funny. And now I am going to think about no-arms Farrell performing acts of animal husbandry all day, and especially during England-Wales later on.....

Box of frogs game so far

Ffs ya wee daft Ozzie. No half being picky as hell at the maul

Jeez. The ground gives away and you expect a prop to stay up???

That’s a scrum reset, not a penalty

Great first half! I'm feeling pretty happy with Scotland despite the penalties. That is one of the top teams in world rugby and we're more than matching them up front.

Well...we've done lot better than in the first 40 last week. Except for Aldi Price obvs.

tigertattie wrote:Jeez. The ground gives away and you expect a prop to stay up???

That’s a scrum reset, not a penalty

None of the refs seem to have a clue what's going on at scrum time ...

Heaf wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Jeez. The ground gives away and you expect a prop to stay up???

That’s a scrum reset, not a penalty

None of the refs seem to have a clue what's going on at scrum time ...

We need to go nfl and have another ref. Just one that trots on for scrum time and is a specialist scrum ref

Well this match has become quite entertaining.

Harlem globetrotters Scotland are the best NH side at the moment

Russell has had a super game

Collapse2005 wrote:Harlem globetrotters Scotland are the best NH side at the moment

Apart from France - great game tho.

It's simply a delight watching Finn Russell now. I genuinely feel privileged to see him at work and cheer him on.

Well I’m quite pleased with that. Over in France. Ridiculous heat.

If we can stop switching off for entire 20/40 min periods then we may stand a chance of getting out the WC group

Shame to lose it like that but glad they found a way to get back into it nearly win

I think you just have to applaud france for that almost killer blow after halftime. They don't miss many chances and they create a few.

Well played Scotland - thought they were going to win that with 10 mins to go as they had all the momentum ... Pool B is going to be the one to watch ...

Came back superbly but so passive for middle 40 minutes. Cannot do that against The Boks or Ireland.
Kinghorn is great ball in hand but he has to stop over kicking the ball from his 22.
Did it last week and caused a try. Did it again today and caused another try
Also, he should be buying Ollie Smith drinks ( non alcoholic obviously) for saving his blushes when Villiere handed him off and was about to dot down under the posts.

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Harlem globetrotters Scotland are the best NH side at the moment

Apart from France - great game tho.

Think France were lucky enough. Thought Nic Berry was generous with them. For me overall Scotland were a bit better.

Kyle Steyn has become mr reliable on the right wing.

I thought the ref did give France most of the 50/50s.

I remember back in 2017 Scotland also lost by 3 points in World Cup Warm-up to France. Our performance today was much better than it was then.

Can't complain with that result. I think a few reffing decisions were questionable but 9/10 times we just gave France the momentum through our own errors. We're obviously fit enough to play 80 but we also need to be smart enough, that last 20 we were playing more variation and keeping the ref much happier at set piece time, crucial scrum penalty aside. Ali price surely is third choice, I know George Horne is viewed as an impact sub but he has by far outplayed Price this series. I think start him against Georgia and see if he can manage what should be winnable without trouble.

Happy with our ability to come back but France are even more mental than we are. South Africa wouldn't be so kind. Ireland would have kept us at 27-10.

Also definitely think Steyn is now on the plane. I think Harris may have missed out unless Steyn is purely there for back 3.

I’m still worried about Tuipulotu. We saw flashes from huw but bugger all again from Sione. Looking more and more like a one season wonder

tigertattie wrote:I’m still worried about Tuipulotu. We saw flashes from huw but bugger all again from Sione. Looking more and more like a one season wonder

I think the problem is defences are now focusing more on him. It is also an advantage as it allows other players to play and I think gives Finn more time to make decisions. Let's see how Redpath gets on against Georgia though.

Woah sounds a mad game. Looking forward to watching this one!

Scotland looking decent right before the World Cup, but don’t get your hopes up. You should know better than that

Well that was a mad game. Certainly more entertaining than the Twickenham stodge fest but ultimately Scotland still lost. Taking the entertainment and emotion out of it, we didn't actually play very well. Yes it was great to stay in the game and we scored some great tries, but the error count was through the roof which is no surprise given how frantic the game was on. We got away with some incredibly loose play because the French were highly error prone too. That won't happen against SA and Ireland.

What is most concerning is during the championship moments we let things slip. We fell asleep after halftime. The winning kick came from a scrum from our own put in! And that scrum only happened because we made a complete mess of a crucial lineout (sound familiar?).  Our scrum generally was under huge pressure and SA and Ireland will be all over that. We got one last Hail Mary chance at the death and messed up the lineout


So yes it was highly entertaining and some great attacking rugby, but we've done that a lot over the years and still lost to Ireland and SA. It looks like this is going to be Toonie's tactic against those two but we've got to show that we can find a way to beat the two teams in world rugby who are most well set up to nullify that style.

Still, a really good blowout against one of the best teams in the world away from home in tough conditions. Hopefully the injuries aren't too bad.

The Georgia game is going to be a real difficult one to navigate as we want to put a good performance in but the players won't want to get injured!

Well, despite how everything had gone before, Scotland were right there at the end with that lineout just outside the 22. Win your own lineout at that point and all to play for. Not a bad place to be away in France. Just tighten up a few things just a little bit and that could have been won.

What a game that was. entertaining, open, lead and momentum swinging and some great skills on display. 4 tries and in with a chance against a top french side gearing up for a realistic tilt at the WC.

Stats make interesting reading:
Scotland made more metres, a lot more passes and runs and had the majority of possession. France had the territory.

Scotland missed 22 tackles mainly out in the backs. Thats not good enough. Kinghorn made 0 tackles missed 3, Steyn missed two as did Tuipiloto with Finn missing 3
Penalties along with those missed tackles cost us. Pretty evenly spread out.
Dempsey top in yards run for Scotland, tuipiloto nothing - I think they marked him out of the game

https://www.espn.com/rugby/matchstats?gameId=596378&league=289234

I thought they might of started Redpath for this one given his impact over the first two games. Defences are so good now it’s rare to see inside centres running over people these days but I thought Tuipulotu had a good game compared to last week.

Well Smith justified his inclusion with that match saving tackle!

Redpath is still likely the best backs sub though, especially if we go 6:2, which we are likely to against SA

I wstched the game late last night after work and without knowing the score

My takeaways

1. That is surely our starting back row now, Dempsey played himself into the No. 8 shirt and Ritchie and Darge had hugh games. Fagerson will be a great bench option.

2. Price had his vest game for a while and GH really upped the pace when he came on. It will likely be White/Price to stsrt and Horne on the bench.

3. Kyle Steyn will be a very adequate sub foe either of our top wingers should they get injured. He is a very solid player.

4. Finn is in the form of his life

5. I still can't make up my mind about the hookers

6. Javen Sebestajn does not look out of place at this level.

7. We will mske some mistakes, but playing fast and loose is likely the only way we will beat the bigger teams!

Finn was great and put on a big defensive performance, even putting in some key ruck clearouts. I also likes how he speaks to refs - Ritchie tends to run the refs up the wrong way and tries to argue everything.

Every team needs several leaders though so the actual captain isn't the be all and end all. I'd like to see Ritchie a bit more savvy with refs though.

Morning peeps

What a contrast
Engerlund-Wet Wet Wales, the sex life we have most of the time (grunting and boring with the occasional inexplicable injury)
Les Coqs Sportif- Bonnie Scotland, the sex life we all dream of having (over an hour of high speed thrill a minute sweaty over exuberant ball juggling from both parties and everyone feeling satisfied with most aspects of their performance at the end).

Would you rather be English, Welsh or Scottish this morning? The answer to that is contained in my favourite Aussie sporting mantra, "Have a go ya mug". Which seems to me to be a front row version of Samuel Becket's, "Ever tried. Ever failed. Try harder. Fail again. Fail better." Realistically every side, bar one, will fail to win this world cup: would you want to fail like England did yesterday? Or Wales? And before anyone nit-picks, I am fully aware Engerlund won the match yesterday....but jeezo if that's the best they can do! Watching was like eating lard sandwiches and telling yourself that at least you were keeping up your calorific intake .
As for Wales....you lost to that dross!!!

OK Scotland fell just short but it was one heck of a rollercoaster ride. Granted we failed to stop at the end and fell out out of the car in a sprawled heap of tangled limbs, bruised egos and breathless grins....but most of my favourite rides ended up like that.

There are a lot of areas for Toonie and the coaches to work on between now and the Boks. This is good; we don't want complacency creeping in.
Wee Shona was quiet. Two possible reasons: Danty-Ficou are the best defensive midfield in the world right now, also Scotland didn't seem to attempt any plays where Shona was first receiver and Dancer looped round behind him. I have a sense that like a NFL side we were not showing all our plays in a pre-season match. Shona played pretty much truck it up old school 12 all night. It should be (will have to be) different against SA and Ireland.

Would the House Elf have been worse than Aldi Price? Price is in that awful place where he is probably just a half step away from being really good...but he is third behind White and Hornito.

Just another thought after last night's game.
Going into it ADHD Kid was our deadliest finisher with an average of one try every 122 minutes for Scotland. Duhan was third with a try every 133 minutes and sandwiched between them was Seaman with one every 124 minutes.
Considering he scored two last night this means.....Flounder is the engineer he can work it out but I think Seaman is in the lead. In a 5/3 split he would be on the bench covering 13 and wings. In a 6/2 I think Smith covers the back three and allows Blarehorn to go to 10 if needed.

jimbopip wrote:
There are a lot of areas for Toonie and the coaches to work on between now and the Boks. This is good; we don't want complacency creeping in.
Wee Shona was quiet. Two possible reasons: Danty-Ficou are the best defensive midfield in the world right now, also Scotland didn't seem to attempt any plays where Shona was first receiver and Dancer looped round behind him. I have a sense that like a NFL side we were not showing all our plays in a pre-season match. Shona played pretty much truck it up old school 12 all night. It should be (will have to be) different against SA and Ireland.

Would the House Elf have been worse than Aldi Price? Price is in that awful place where he is probably just a half step away from being really good...but he is third behind White and Hornito.

I think it was the opposite of that - Tuoipolotu was playing as a pivot for most of the attack instead of carrying. The ball regularly went out the back from him. The fact his carrying stats were poor backs this up.

If that's the tactic though, Redpath would probably be the better fit!

Saying that though, Tuoipolotu-Jones will be our starting midfield and rightly so.

There's a great thread here in Twitter on the importance of an experienced midfield combo because A) it is the hardest combo to forge an effective partnership and B) it is incredibly important to the success of a team

https://twitter.com/HuwGriffinRugby/status/1683743079528792064?t=k5TmoAwxE1i8Y6_K-yHXeA&s=19

I can't find the tweets but on the back of this someone did a comparison of Scottish rugby combos. In short, Johnson-Harris is the most experience partnership in recent years with Huwopolotu close behind. Any other partnership was vastly behind.

RDW wrote:Finn was great and put on a big defensive performance, even putting in some key ruck clearouts. I also likes how he speaks to refs - Ritchie tends to run the refs up the wrong way and tries to argue everything.

Every team needs several leaders though so the actual captain isn't the be all and end all. I'd like to see Ritchie a bit more savvy with refs though.

He was excellent, thought he could have done better as last man in defense for Ollivons try but other than that excellent. His passing is exceptional now, its certainly elite level, maybe best in the world.

So, this is the way things are; we're playing exciting, thrilling rugby, we have the best stand off in the world, our strength in depth is such that THREE Lions are struggling to make the starting XV and might miss the squad altogether and the mood in the camp is positive and focused.
We're doomed I say. Doomed.