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England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 30 Jun 2023, 12:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continued.....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 Jul 2023, 10:56 am

Not surprised at his response following from the SA journalists question. It was clearly there to try and rub his nose in it. As above Jones can do silly things to take attention of his teams ahead of games but he's generally a good winner and loser which can't be said about everyone.

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Post by yappysnap Mon 10 Jul 2023, 9:48 pm

Didn't he tell the reporters to wind their necks in or something along those lines?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Jul 2023, 6:53 am

https://twitter.com/GreggC_CC/status/1677787910664335360?t=ILJUCBYtz9LhScV3TTGebg&s=19

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 11 Jul 2023, 12:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://twitter.com/GreggC_CC/status/1677787910664335360?t=ILJUCBYtz9LhScV3TTGebg&s=19

In this case, Jones is right. The journalist was on the wind-up. Jones actually said he wanted to face the strongest Boks selection. Any coach trying to prepare for the World Cup would want the same. He also said he didn't want to take down a "half-baked" Bok side. Again, that's right. Plenty of Bok supporters give little credit to Wales for winning the 2nd tour Test in South Africa, because many first choice players were rested.

As it turned out, that Boks team had more than enough for the Wallabies. Doesn't change the fact Jones would have preferred to measure his team against a full first choice selection.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 12 Jul 2023, 12:05 am

No question the interviewer was full of himself, and even if what he said was intended as a joke which bombed, he gave Eddie a free shot.  Which, of course, Eddie had to take, and he took it a bit too far.  But, if it wasn't too far, it wouldn't be Eddie.

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 12 Jul 2023, 12:31 am

New England camp video.




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Post by Geordie Wed 12 Jul 2023, 10:54 am

So will it be a settled selection for all the warm up games with a few positions trialled...or will there be mass changes throughout the games.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 12 Jul 2023, 2:16 pm

Geordie wrote:So will it be a settled selection for all the warm up games with a few positions trialled...or will there be mass changes throughout the games.

There's a few friendlies so I'd expect everyone to get a game as Borthwick will want them all to be match fit. Not much point taking players to the world cup that have either been flogged across four friendlies or not played since the end of the Prem season some three months before.

There's a few places up for grabs as well so competition should be fierce.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 12 Jul 2023, 3:16 pm

I believe that the 33 man squad announcement for the world cup happens 7th August so the game against Wales on the 5th will be the only match available for anyone not in the plans to stick their hand up.

Perhaps because of that there may be a few more fringe players in that game as a last roll of the dice. Would be pretty harsh to merely put out the second stringers but may well be. Will be interesting though to see how we approach those players who are currently injured, or at least not named in the full training squad. Can we name them without seeing them run out, or does it matter given the long stretch anyway since the last competitive matches. For me I'd like to see Billy Vunipola have at least a half to see how he looks as he's generally been a slow starter, but realistically it looks as if he's going to be named unless he breaks an arm again. If it's decided that guys like Mako do need the run out does that knock down the chances of people like Rapava-Ruskin who don't have the 'money in the bank'?

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Post by Poorfour Wed 12 Jul 2023, 4:16 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:So will it be a settled selection for all the warm up games with a few positions trialled...or will there be mass changes throughout the games.

There's a few friendlies so I'd expect everyone to get a game as Borthwick will want them all to be match fit. Not much point taking players to the world cup that have either been flogged across four friendlies or not played since the end of the Prem season some three months before.

There's a few places up for grabs as well so competition should be fierce.

I'd agree that everyone in with a shout of the final squad ought to get a run out. I imagine Borthwick will be wanting to test match fitness and see who can meet his metrics - I hope we can expect a big improvement in how quickly players are back in position given the training that they've been doing this week.

I'd also expect him to try out various combinations - probably mixing the likely starters with the backup players to see what gels. But equally, each XXIII is likely to be a mixture of settled units and more speculative combinations.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Jul 2023, 8:22 am

Run out in 1 game though? Not sure you'd be able to get those numbers on the pitch in sort of settled units.

I see Marler (BBC) has reiterated the call to Borthwick around what he needs to do to make the squad. Nothing really new bar the fact that he's said that he was available for selection for the AIs and the recent 6Ns. Both Jones and Borthwick have banged the drum to reiterate that they see us as a set piece team, really don't then get the logic of picking Mako Vunipola to base that game on. There were questions on whether Borthwick was available to make the amount of changes he wanted this 6Ns ( the lack of transparency on that still hasn't occurred), but still odd to not address a player as good as Marler earlier. Sounds as if Jones felt that Marler simply wasn't playing well enough; again, to me odd.

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Post by Geordie Thu 13 Jul 2023, 8:33 am

But surely SB will want some form of settled core to build some familiarisation?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Jul 2023, 8:35 am

His starting side will have played together loads already to be fair.

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Post by Geordie Thu 13 Jul 2023, 9:08 am

But under Jones they were playing like headless chickens...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Jul 2023, 9:34 am

Well 2 fundamental differences to Jones time will be that I think Borthwicks plan/tactics which will be much simpler, and the team will have trained on all aspects of the game plan!

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Post by Geordie Thu 13 Jul 2023, 9:39 am

And i would agree with those, but we still need a few games of consistent selection to get the guys familiar with the tactics (easy as they might be) and with each other.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Jul 2023, 9:50 am

Fair enough, the latter point being my first i.e. it's likely to be a very familiar set of players playing in the world cup as we've seen from the last world cup. There isn't the game time to play fringe players ahead of the squad announcement. I doubt we will see much more than basic structure before the quarters, if we get that far.

I reckon Borthwick knows his team now, only some howlers or fitness changes that.

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 13 Jul 2023, 11:55 am

Geordie wrote:And i would agree with those, but we still need a few games of consistent selection to get the guys familiar with the tactics (easy as they might be) and with each other.

The chance of consistent selection went out the window when we changed coaches ahead of the last Six Nations. Some players are only just available now, while others, like Ben Curry, have dropped out through injury. There will likely be other injuries.

From the Six Nations, Borthwick probably learned more about what didn't work, than what did. He's not exactly starting from scratch in the training camp but there's not going to be a lot of continuity. Looking at the schedule of warm-ups and pool games, Borthwick is facing a task a bit similar to a Lions tour: give everyone a game, while having a good idea of who will be starting the opening pool match against Argentina.

Wales vs England
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Post by Poorfour Thu 13 Jul 2023, 12:45 pm

That match against Argentina is the crux of it. Los Pumas have been building nicely and have a very strong system - but England have a great record against them (up until the last AIs) and will have an element of surprise.

Win that one, and the remainder of the pool is a bit easier. Samoa could be dangerous last up, but are likely to be in a position where they are either already out or it's a decider for the group (if they've beaten Argentina).

I'd guess that we will see the closest to the XXIII for Argentina in the Ireland warm up, and assuming no injuries the Fiji game will be a run-out for the wider squad.
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Post by propdavid_london Fri 14 Jul 2023, 11:35 am

Ignore Japan at our peril....Barring Chile none of these can be considered easy games.

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Post by mountain man Fri 14 Jul 2023, 12:00 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Ignore Japan at our peril....Barring Chile none of these can be considered easy games.

Agreed.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 14 Jul 2023, 12:13 pm

Japan, Argentina and Samoa are not pushovers - but they are all teams against whom England have a very good record, even at RWCs. All are possible banana skins, especially with Argentina up first. But equally, with time to prepare and a pretty chunky schedule of warm up games, England ought to be able to win all of them.

The flip side of having Argentina first is that if England win that one, it puts them in pole position in the group.
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Post by hugehandoff Fri 14 Jul 2023, 12:39 pm

[quote="Rugby Fan"]
Geordie wrote:And i would agree with those, but we still need a few games of consistent selection to get the guys familiar with the tactics (easy as they might be) and with each other.

The chance of consistent selection went out the window when we changed coaches ahead of the last Six Nations.


No the chance of consistent selection went out of the window when we did not get rid of Eddie a year earlier

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 14 Jul 2023, 1:31 pm

Poorfour wrote:Japan, Argentina and Samoa are not pushovers - but they are all teams against whom England have a very good record, even at RWCs. All are possible banana skins, especially with Argentina up first. But equally, with time to prepare and a pretty chunky schedule of warm up games, England ought to be able to win all of them.

The flip side of having Argentina first is that if England win that one, it puts them in pole position in the group.
But if England don't win against Argentina, then we would have a whole new ballgame.

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Post by Poorfour Sun 16 Jul 2023, 9:46 pm

Ruck are reporting today that Mako, Hill, Underhill, May and Daly are set to be dropped. Ok, it’s ruck, but that’s a pretty specific list, and it would narrow the remaining selection down to far fewer positions - primarily loose head, back row and probably one from the back three.
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Post by Mr Bounce Sun 16 Jul 2023, 11:43 pm

If that's right, then I am gutted for Underhill (probably for the best given his concussion and injury problems), but equally glad that Mako isn't likely to be involved. We need our props to be able to scrummage consistently, which is not something that he has demonstrated regularly at International level for some time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 7:13 am

Well I'd welcome vunipola being dropped as as above if we're truly picking a pack to win setpieces he's not in the top 5 looseheads.

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Post by Geordie Mon 17 Jul 2023, 8:10 am

Underhill out....is that the green light for Pearson to be selected.

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Post by mountain man Mon 17 Jul 2023, 8:45 am

Poorfour wrote:Ruck are reporting today that Mako, Hill, Underhill, May and Daly are set to be dropped. Ok, it’s ruck, but that’s a pretty specific list, and it would narrow the remaining selection down to far fewer positions - primarily loose head, back row and probably one from the back three.

I reckon that's a list most of us would have dropped out of squad.
Mako I just don't think his scrummaging is up to it. Hill, not good enough International level and too prone to stupid pens. Underhill class player but far too many injuries and concussions.
May I think has lost a bit of his express pace which was the entire point of picking him for me. I've also thought in recent games he's playd his confidence looked gone.
Daly, divides opinion and at his best he is a very good player. Possibly suffers from being a utility player? Very good in several positions but rarely good enough to nail down one in England team.

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 17 Jul 2023, 9:32 am

Malins does what Daly does, but more recently for England, and with better tackling.

Bit harsh maybe, but no point in having them both. Borthwick clearly likes Malins, and he is in possession of the shirt.


Last edited by Mr Bounce on Mon 17 Jul 2023, 11:52 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 17 Jul 2023, 9:33 am

Hopefully thats Jonny Hill out of contention rather than Ted Hill?
Although I am not sure if Ted is still in the squad or not.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 9:41 am

Ted's already dropped.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 17 Jul 2023, 9:48 am

I did wonder...cheers 7.5.
In that case, I am in total agreement that Jonny Hill gets the hook.
All the others I can see a case for too - One assumes if Mako goes then perhaps Marler is pulling up trees in training (as well as getting bench press records).
May getting pipped by Murley in the sprints perhaps negates his 'super power'.
And Daly's versatility as mentioned above is covered by the likes of Malins.
The only other carrot he had was the long range kicking option - but there are plenty of other kickers in the squad at present in Farrell, Ford, Smith and even Slade.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 12:52 pm

Just a wait and see as to how accurate it is. Would be quite the turnaround in some respects on selection but then we've seen Youngs picked to dropped completely, to be brought back, Vunipola consistently picked then dropped. Malins was in the starting team then dropped for Daly. Underhill's form was back to 2019 levels 3 weeks ago, has he dropped off a cliff or are the others now proving to be better?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 17 Jul 2023, 1:28 pm

Did anyone see that report on Marler beating the England squad bench press record with 150kg. It was not that Marler beat the record that surprised me, it was who held it before, Courtney Lawes. He just does not look the bench pressing type.
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Post by Geordie Mon 17 Jul 2023, 1:31 pm

Well if that is the England record thats pretty sh1te when Cristian Cullen the great AB full back was benching 170kg back in the day at about 13 stone wet through!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 17 Jul 2023, 1:31 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Did anyone see that report on Marler beating the England squad bench press record with 150kg. It was not that Marler beat the record that surprised me, it was who held it before, Courtney Lawes. He just does not look the bench pressing type.

Presume that's just in the current camp as Ellis has previously said Obano has done more than 150kg for reps.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rugbypass.com/news/ellis-genge-reveals-england-squads-biggest-bench-presser-after-maro-itoje-is-asked-online/

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Post by Margin_Walker Mon 17 Jul 2023, 1:46 pm

Yeah, 150 seems incredibly low even for multiple reps.

They had a vid on socials this week with Marler doing 3 or 4 reps of 160. Also doubt Lawes ever held any kind of England bench record either.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 17 Jul 2023, 1:51 pm

Poorfour wrote:Ruck are reporting today that Mako, Hill, Underhill, May and Daly are set to be dropped. Ok, it’s ruck, but that’s a pretty specific list, and it would narrow the remaining selection down to far fewer positions - primarily loose head, back row and probably one from the back three.

It's the Ruck so maybe one in five might be correct.

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Post by Geordie Mon 17 Jul 2023, 1:57 pm

In fact didnt Andrew Sheridan bench way over 200 so he must have held the record...

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Post by Poorfour Mon 17 Jul 2023, 2:03 pm

Margin_Walker wrote:Yeah, 150 seems incredibly low even for multiple reps.

They had a vid on socials this week with Marler doing 3 or 4 reps of 160. Also doubt Lawes ever held any kind of England bench record either.

Apparently Marler's just in the top 5 along with Genge and Sinckler, with Manu the overall leader on 200 kgs. We don't know how many reps or what they're expected to do before tackling that weight, though.
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Post by lostinwales Mon 17 Jul 2023, 4:47 pm

I don't know what kind of form Daly is in but if , he was on form I'd have him over Malins every time, because he can do it against the best teams and I don't think Malins can

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 17 Jul 2023, 6:26 pm

Daly also covers the centres as well as wing and fullback. On current form in the Internationals I want nothing to do with Malins. But if Borthwick felt Daly wasn't getting it done in training then he has to go with his gut.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 17 Jul 2023, 7:28 pm

Rodd and Underhill both cut from the squad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66227521

Those recovering from injury remain.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 17 Jul 2023, 8:33 pm

Sad to see Underhill released. It sounded like he was close to full fitness. At that level I'd have him ahead of several other back rows there.

That said, I'm delighted that Tom Pearson is still in the squad.

Rodd being released with Marler and VRR retained I like. I rate Rodd but his scrummaging needs development hence McIntyre starting Sale's KO games recently. I reckon Rodd will earn plenty of England caps down the line though. He's only 22 after all.

Not much else to note really from those small changes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 9:00 pm

Maybe suggests that the injury list guys will come straight back in if fit? So probably rapava-ruskin, willis, dan/blamire, Marchant and hill place holding?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 9:01 pm

Only 3 weeks for those rehabbing before the squad is named though...

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Post by king_carlos Mon 17 Jul 2023, 10:12 pm

Significantly longer when you add in the tournament actually starting and then its duration though. Every tournament sees players picked by a few sides even if they won't be fit for the first rounds let alone the date for naming the squad.

I'd presume Kolisi and Pollard would be in that bracket for the Boks for instance. Even if they aren't fit before the squad is named I'd be astonished if they were left out if the medical teams expect them to be back for the latter group stages and KOs.

England basically did that with Richard Hill in 2003. His knee clearly wasn't right going in but he was picked anyway. Then after trying to play the first pool stage game against Georgia he sat out until the semi against France if memory serves.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 17 Jul 2023, 11:26 pm

With the concussion issue part of me hopes Underhill calls it a day now, but he will most definitely be missed

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 17 Jul 2023, 11:53 pm

I had sorely hoped that Mako was 100% out.

He is not the player he used to be and his scrummaging is getting worse. How do the coaches not see that he is becoming a liability at scrum time? Every tight head in the group will be licking their lips if he goes to France.

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