England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

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Continued.....

No theres a few selections that has puzzled me...howvver in general contrary to most peple..i actually like what SB's doing.

Back to basics...simple instructions...physical mobile pack...experienced players and newbies...hopefully a brick wall defence...and then look for an "efficient" rather than exhilarating attack...

It can all be built on post WC...but at least this will make us a drilled strong team...tough to be play against for the WC.

Well I for one have always said it's ultimately all about winning. Yes we want to see great flowing, running, counter attacking rugby but at end of day win.
If Borthwick is preparing a squad just for this RWC to do as well as possible then I support that.

I am concerned if squad he has assembled will come good. Harking back to 2019 with a lot of same faces doesn't seem to be a recipe for success. Then we had peak Itoje and Curry, both some way off that form and other players getting long in tooth.

However I also concede Borthwick knows a lot more than me and he is seeing players all the time in training etc.

Interesting Mercer v Tom Willis. Just seeing the pics from the squad...Tom Willis is looking in very good shape. He was carrying quite a bit of Timber but hes shredded it all. That can only be helping his performance.

mountain man wrote:Well I for one have always said it's ultimately all about winning. Yes we want to see great flowing, running, counter attacking rugby but at end of day win.
If Borthwick is preparing a squad just for this RWC to do as well as possible then I support that.

I am concerned if squad he has assembled will come good. Harking back to 2019 with a lot of same faces doesn't seem to be a recipe for success. Then we had peak Itoje and Curry, both some way off that form and other players getting long in tooth.

However I also concede Borthwick knows a lot more than me and he is seeing players all the time in training etc.

Exactly...and thats how i see it...then the rebuilding can begin from there.

But he could be in a position where many of his complete inexperienced future stars (Pearson, Martin, Blamire, Theo Dan, Lawrence etc etc) might have already been through a full world cup tournament. That some fabulous experience in such a young group.

I agree. If rumours are correct, Borthwick was probably expecting to return to Eddie's setup for this RWC and then to pick up the reins.

Instead, he was handed a team who were part way through taking on Eddie's masterplan and in disarray. With hindsight, I think he may have used the 6N for a bit of experimentation, and the Ireland game showed that he was beginning to get to grips with the team at his disposal.

It makes no sense for him to be thinking ahead to RWC 2027 at this stage. The squad he has includes enough players who should be around in 2027 that he will have the experience base to carry forward, so the priority has to be on making the most of a very benign draw. In that context, age and future potential are less important than form and fit to the gameplan he has in mind.

The squad contains some surprises, but Borthwick has looked at most of the people who've been discussed as contenders. If he's discarded some who people expected to make the final squad, they have been given their chance to meet what he's set out for them and they've not managed it.

Poorfour wrote:I agree. If rumours are correct, Borthwick was probably expecting to return to Eddie's setup for this RWC and then to pick up the reins.

Instead, he was handed a team who were part way through taking on Eddie's masterplan and in disarray. With hindsight, I think he may have used the 6N for a bit of experimentation, and the Ireland game showed that he was beginning to get to grips with the team at his disposal.

It makes no sense for him to be thinking ahead to RWC 2027 at this stage. The squad he has includes enough players who should be around in 2027 that he will have the experience base to carry forward, so the priority has to be on making the most of a very benign draw. In that context, age and future potential are less important than form and fit to the gameplan he has in mind.

The squad contains some surprises, but Borthwick has looked at most of the people who've been discussed as contenders. If he's discarded some who people expected to make the final squad, they have been given their chance to meet what he's set out for them and they've not managed it.

Would you have selected Kelly?

Geordie wrote:
Would you have selected Kelly?

I don't think I'm in a position to make a call. I'd like to see him in an England shirt at some point and 12 has been a problem position for us for 20 years.

Borthwick knows Kelly better than any of us, having been his DoR at Leicester up until 6 months ago. Presumably he either thinks he's not ready or not fully fit.

Hes doing his Alan Hansen impression. You don't win anything with kids.

Well it could still have quite a youthful side to it dependant on who he picks.

Tom Pearson (23), George Martin (22), Ollie Lawrence (23), Theo Dan (22), Cadan Murley (23), Tom Willis (24), Freddie Steward (22), JVP (22), Arundell (20), Rodd (22), Marcus Smith (24), Ollie Chessum (if he recovers) (22)

Even Tom Curry is only just turned 25...Blamire 25...Earl 25....

I'd have less issues with that as I think a lot of them are better players than the elder options.

Looking forward to the warm ups though, probably going to be a bit looser on tactics than we'll see in the actual world cup? Should at least in the first couple see a few of the fringe players, or is it more likely they're used in the away games?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd have less issues with that as I think a lot of them are better players than the elder options.

Looking forward to the warm ups though, probably going to be a bit looser on tactics than we'll see in the actual world cup? Should at least in the first couple see a few of the fringe players, or is it more likely they're used in the away games?

I agree with you there.

Sounds like another end to end game for the u20s, stuck in the office so can't even slyly keep an eye on it. 22 apiece and sounds like Jibulu is a mazy winger rather than hooker.

Another draw. not sure what that does for qualifying, presuming we don't.

England's basics just were not good enough, the passing in particular was appalling. I get that they are young men, and I'm willing to forgive them their rash decisions in attack and defence, but you really have to be able throw a pass at a catchable height and in front of the man.

There are a few that I will look out for, but I doubt many of them will push on to international honours.

Always an interesting 1. Ideally you'd love 15 plus WC players come through every year but I'd imagine the head coach of the senior team would prefer 1 potential worldie rather than 5 so so? Think from what I've seen from this group it's C-S, Chessum, Cleaves (maybe but I've seen better wingers at this level who have faded), Bracken are the ones I think maybe.

In addition to those you mentioned, I also liked the look of Rob Carmichael and the front row (on the proviso that one of the hookers can go on and learn to be more solid at the lineout, it has been a blight). Not sure about any of the backs really, a lot of their play was headless chicken stuff, with breeze block hands.

The only proper standout for me was Lewis Chessum, aside from the physical attributes, he just seems to have something about him.

Cumbrian wrote:England's basics just were not good enough, the passing in particular was appalling.  I get that they are young men, and I'm willing to forgive them their rash decisions in attack and defence, but you really have to be able throw a pass at a catchable height and in front of the man.

There are a few that I will look out for, but I doubt many of them will push on to international honours.

Sounds like perfect training for the senior England squad.

Cumbrian wrote:In addition to those you mentioned, I also liked the look of Rob Carmichael and the front row (on the proviso that one of the hookers can go on and learn to be more solid at the lineout, it has been a blight).  Not sure about any of the backs really, a lot of their play was headless chicken stuff, with breeze block hands.  

The only proper standout for me was Lewis Chessum, aside from the physical attributes, he just seems to have something about him.

Noticed him earlier. It’s been a while since England had a Johnson or Shaw type of lock…

Cumbrian wrote:In addition to those you mentioned, I also liked the look of Rob Carmichael and the front row (on the proviso that one of the hookers can go on and learn to be more solid at the lineout, it has been a blight).  Not sure about any of the backs really, a lot of their play was headless chicken stuff, with breeze block hands.  

The only proper standout for me was Lewis Chessum, aside from the physical attributes, he just seems to have something about him.

I think Jibulu was excellent - he can be forgiven a few ropey darts on a day when it was blowing so hard that at one point a scrum half caught his own box kick more or less where he kicked it. He was good in both parts of the setpiece in the other games and made some great contributions in the loose. Cunningham-South made some very bruising carries - there's a bit of the young Billy V about him - but is a bit lacking in subtlety and tackle technique.

Considering Slevin was a fullback until this tournament, I think he's done a very good job at flyhalf. It'll be interesting to see how Quins use him given their current flyhalf roster is Marcus Smith, Jarrod Evans, Will Edwards and Jamie Benson. I think England were hampered by having weak centres - the 12 had some heft but wasn't adding much with his lines, and the 13 made too many mistakes.

So Arundell has signed for Racing. So where does that leave him post WC....?

Geordie wrote:So Arundell has signed for Racing. So where does that leave him post WC....?

France.

Thanks Doc....

It is being widely reported (although nothing conclusive) that he has got a deal lined up with Bath for after his contract with Racing. Having been in the England camp during the collapse of Irish you would imagine that he has been speaking to the powers that be.

Yes you would think that...has Jack Willis got the same as hes signed an extension.

What was it about Lewis Chessum you liked marra.

Last thing I read was situation with Arundell going to Racing meant his availability for England would be under scrutinty.
I also read an unverified comment on BBC HYS he was ruled out but I haven't seen that officially confirmed either way so I dont have any faith that is case.

I'd be surprised seeing as he's in Eng squad for RWC and surely a cert for England for future he'd jepodise his Int career.
Maybe a player who has been dropped from squad might consider options but I'd be very disappointed if a player of potential of Arundall - and realised potential at that - would walk away from England.

Then again with Premiership club situation, 3 clubs gone and possibly more uncertain you would hope RFU might alter rules to allow overseas players flexibility.

The rules were relaxed following Worcester and Wasps as it was deemed unfair on the players affected and also the fact a lot of English clubs were up to the cap; so what could the RFU do. Don't think it was ever spelled out clearly in terms of whether that meant 1st contract, 2nd, whether short terms deals were ok. For me some consideration needs to be made as well as to the players indirectly affected i.e. those whose contracts were coming up but because these additional players may have signed on suddenly see the wage offered to them, reduced.

And that's before we consider clubs having to offload players due to the wage cap reduction re covid.

For me it's time to scrap it and bite the bullet that the England squad won't have as much time with all of their players. With the PRL agreement coming up for renewal the RFU could go really gutsy and propose central contracts for a core of the squad and a little relaxation of the rules for others.

We've seen far more English players start to try their luck (in France in particular) and when you see guys as good as Mercer bizarrely ignored who can blame them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The rules were relaxed following Worcester and Wasps as it was deemed unfair on the players affected and also the fact a lot of English clubs were up to the cap; so what could the RFU do. Don't think it was ever spelled out clearly in terms of whether that meant 1st contract, 2nd, whether short terms deals were ok. For me some consideration needs to be made as well as to the players indirectly affected i.e. those whose contracts were coming up but because these additional players may have signed on suddenly see the wage offered to them, reduced.

And that's before we consider clubs having to offload players due to the wage cap reduction re covid.

For me it's time to scrap it and bite the bullet that the England squad won't have as much time with all of their players. With the PRL agreement coming up for renewal the RFU could go really gutsy and propose central contracts for a core of the squad and a little relaxation of the rules for others.

We've seen far more English players start to try their luck (in France in particular) and when you see guys as good as Mercer bizarrely ignored who can blame them.

But is he as good as Dombrandt and Tom Willis.

I would have said better than Dombrandt going on the stats...but in reality I have no idea. Theres some very good coaches in there at the moment assessing them though so If he hasnt shone then there must be reasons why?

The French seem to think he's better than Willis. I'd still start Dombrandt, but then I do acknowledge that Borthwick's tactics ignore the strengths of them 2. Willis, well he's still young but is more a belt and braces player for me. He may bring out the strengths of others, the Deschamps water carrier.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The French seem to think he's better than Willis. I'd still start Dombrandt, but then I do acknowledge that Borthwick's tactics ignore the strengths of them 2. Willis, well he's still young but is more a belt and braces player for me. He may bring out the strengths of others, the Deschamps water carrier.

Our Aldritt?

Though I'm not sold on him overall I'm not going to talk him down too much as I've seen similar players have a big impact on the guys around them. I can't see us clamouring for his inclusion come the 6Ns but Dombrandt isn't the answer if you just want a traditional 8. Nor is Mercer.

Feels a bit like 2014/15 with discussions around do we want Morgan or Vunipola. Just very different approaches.

Yeah..i get that.

We shall have to wait and see really. its all a bit new for us...lots of uncertainties...how they'll lineup how they'll go tactically.

Will the defense be improved on the 6n...etc etc.

Totally agree, two different 8's for different game plans. Willis was also lauded by the French and has been good apparently. Mercer is talented but probably doesn't fit into the system. Willis is an abrasive carrier hits like a steam train and will do the donkey work for 80 mins. When mercer played for England I'm not sure he stood out. Could be wrong however as it was a long time ago. I'm happy for either player tbh both good players. It's up to them who kicks on and impresses.

Down the line Theres also the potential of Chandler Cunningham South...to come in to the equation. Where will he end up..6 or 8.

Geordie wrote:  

Thanks Doc....

Sorry, mate. Couldn't help myself....

Geordie wrote:Down the line Theres also the potential of Chandler Cunningham South...to come in to the equation. Where will he end up..6 or 8.

He was excellent for U20s and he played 8 so I'd have him there especially as England need options there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Though I'm not sold on him overall I'm not going to talk him down too much as I've seen similar players have a big impact on the guys around them. I can't see us clamouring for his inclusion come the 6Ns but Dombrandt isn't the answer if you just want a traditional 8. Nor is Mercer.

Feels a bit like 2014/15 with discussions around do we want Morgan or Vunipola. Just very different approaches.

I'd have said more Morgan and Vunipola vs Easter - Bill and Ben were both big, direct lumps with a lot of power but not much variation in their game, and when both were fit Billy was generally the better player. Easter gave a bit away in pace (and therefore outright power), but added a lot in running lines, offloading, reading of the game, being a credible lineout jumper etc.

One of the huge frustrations of the 2015 tournament was that neither Morgan nor Vunipola were fully fit but Lancaster refused to play Easter until the Uruguay game (and was rewarded with a hattrick when it was too late to make a difference).

Dombrandt reminds me of Easter (I sometimes joke that he arrived at the Stoop in a DHL Crate marked "Nick Easter v2.0 - now faster!"). He's not going to smash through a line as often as Vunipola, but he should be capable of slicing through one on a clever line more often than he has so far. In the 6N he was running the lines but the timings on the passes were off and he was spilling the ball a lot - that should be fixable given the amount of time he has in camp. His game relies a lot on good timing and if the coaches can get that tuned to the pace of international rugby we should start to see the best of him in an England shirt.

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Down the line Theres also the potential of Chandler Cunningham South...to come in to the equation. Where will he end up..6 or 8.

He was excellent for U20s and he played 8 so I'd have him there especially as England need options there.

Personally, I thought his showings for the U20s were good but not quite POTM. He did a lot of running into brick walls and a fair bit of running over people, but I thought Nathan Jibulu was the better player against Australia (and made a real difference in the Ireland game, too) - and the two props should have been in the running too.

I think Quins will play him at 8. We currently have Dombrandt and Archie White (who is unlikely to set the world on fire), plus James Chisholm can cover 8 when he is fit (which is sadly not that often these days) and Tom Lawday can play there if needed. CCS would give a clear alternative to Dombrandt with a different style of play - though I'd also expect him to play a bit at 6.

It'll be interesting to see if he can add more variation to his game.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Though I'm not sold on him overall I'm not going to talk him down too much as I've seen similar players have a big impact on the guys around them. I can't see us clamouring for his inclusion come the 6Ns but Dombrandt isn't the answer if you just want a traditional 8. Nor is Mercer.

Feels a bit like 2014/15 with discussions around do we want Morgan or Vunipola. Just very different approaches.

I'd have said more Morgan and Vunipola vs Easter - Bill and Ben were both big, direct lumps with a lot of power but not much variation in their game, and when both were fit Billy was generally the better player. Easter gave a bit away in pace (and therefore outright power), but added a lot in running lines, offloading, reading of the game, being a credible lineout jumper etc.

One of the huge frustrations of the 2015 tournament was that neither Morgan nor Vunipola were fully fit but Lancaster refused to play Easter until the Uruguay game (and was rewarded with a hattrick when it was too late to make a difference).

Dombrandt reminds me of Easter (I sometimes joke that he arrived at the Stoop in a DHL Crate marked "Nick Easter v2.0 - now faster!"). He's not going to smash through a line as often as Vunipola, but he should be capable of slicing through one on a clever line more often than he has so far. In the 6N he was running the lines but the timings on the passes were off and he was spilling the ball a lot - that should be fixable given the amount of time he has in camp. His game relies a lot on good timing and if the coaches can get that tuned to the pace of international rugby we should start to see the best of him in an England shirt.

Not sure I ever thought that Vunipola was the better player think it was a bit neck and neck until Morgans list of injuries allowed the former to jump ahead.

Not sure this group of coaches is prepared to persevere or adapt from the game to suit players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Though I'm not sold on him overall I'm not going to talk him down too much as I've seen similar players have a big impact on the guys around them. I can't see us clamouring for his inclusion come the 6Ns but Dombrandt isn't the answer if you just want a traditional 8. Nor is Mercer.

Feels a bit like 2014/15 with discussions around do we want Morgan or Vunipola. Just very different approaches.

I'd have said more Morgan and Vunipola vs Easter - Bill and Ben were both big, direct lumps with a lot of power but not much variation in their game, and when both were fit Billy was generally the better player. Easter gave a bit away in pace (and therefore outright power), but added a lot in running lines, offloading, reading of the game, being a credible lineout jumper etc.

One of the huge frustrations of the 2015 tournament was that neither Morgan nor Vunipola were fully fit but Lancaster refused to play Easter until the Uruguay game (and was rewarded with a hattrick when it was too late to make a difference).

Dombrandt reminds me of Easter (I sometimes joke that he arrived at the Stoop in a DHL Crate marked "Nick Easter v2.0 - now faster!"). He's not going to smash through a line as often as Vunipola, but he should be capable of slicing through one on a clever line more often than he has so far. In the 6N he was running the lines but the timings on the passes were off and he was spilling the ball a lot - that should be fixable given the amount of time he has in camp. His game relies a lot on good timing and if the coaches can get that tuned to the pace of international rugby we should start to see the best of him in an England shirt.

Not sure I ever thought that Vunipola was the better player think it was a bit neck and neck until Morgans list of injuries allowed the former to jump ahead.

Not sure this group of coaches is prepared to persevere or adapt from the game to suit players.

i think post WC is the time to watch that...we know what they'll do for the world cup and i think thats fair enough.

The one real grey area about SB's management is that we've never seen him in a position long term to see HOW he will develop and change and improve his side once we have that core basic solid base level sewn up.

I always felt that Morgan was extremely unlikely with fitness and injury. A fit and firing Ben Morgan had a better rugby brain than Billy with a similar run through walls attribute, but neither the fitness or durability to succeed. Watching him and Wade in that first match in Argentina in 2013 was great.

I think both him and Billy at full fitness for a good length of time would have been a fantastic position of strength.

Tom Willis could be a similar sort of player, hopefully without the injury concerns.

Mr Bounce wrote:I always felt that Morgan was extremely unlikely with fitness and injury. A fit and firing Ben Morgan had a better rugby brain than Billy with a similar run through walls attribute, but neither the fitness or durability to succeed. Watching him and Wade in that first match in Argentina in 2013 was great.

I think both him and Billy at full fitness for a good length of time would have been a fantastic position of strength.

Tom Willis could be a similar sort of player, hopefully without the injury concerns.

Absolutely agree, a tag team of an in-form Billy and and in-form Ben Morgan would have been something. So at any time if the coach needed to make a change he could replace someone who ran like an angry bulldozer with someone who ran like an angry bulldozer.

The one thing about Morgan compared to most Rugby players was he almost always played with a smile on his face, clearly and openly showing his enjoyment of the game. That type of personality is contagious, and for fans it adds a lot.

Bit faster than Vunipola too. The link up with Wade....ah. I sometimes wake up and think if only Gatland hadn't called him up to be cannon fodder for a scratch Lions side

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit faster than Vunipola too. The link up with Wade....ah. I sometimes wake up and think if only Gatland hadn't called him up to be cannon fodder for a scratch Lions side

Was that the same Lions game where Stuart Hogg played 10?

Brumbies British and Irish Lions
Tries Kuridrani (4) Tries none
Pens Mogg (39, 45, 53) Pens Hogg (40, 55), Farrell (63, 71)
Team
15 FB
Jesse Mogg
14 W
Henry Speight
13 C
Tevita Kuridrani
12 C
Andrew Smith
11 W
Clyde Rathbone
10 FH
Matt Toomua
9 SH
Ian Prior
1 P
Scott Sio
2 H
Siliva Siliva
3 P
Ruan Smith
4 L
Leon Power
5 L
Sam Carter
6 F
Scott Fardy
7 F
Colby Fainga'a
8 N8
Peter Kimlin
Replacements
16 R
Josh Mann-Rea
17
Jean-Pierre Smith
18
Chris Cocca
19 R
Etienne Oosthuizen
20 R
Jordan Smiler
21
Mark Swanepoel
22 R
Robbie Coleman
23 R
Zack Holmes
Team
15 FB
Rob Kearney
14 W
Christian Wade
13 C
Brad Barritt
12 C
Billy Twelvetrees
11 W
Shane Williams
10 FH
Stuart Hogg
9 SH
Ben Youngs
1 P
Ryan Grant
2 H
Rory Best
3 P
Matt Stevens
4 L
Richie Gray
5 L
Ian Evans
6 F
Sean O'Brien
7 F
Justin Tipuric
8 N8
Taulupe Faletau
Replacements
16 R
Richard Hibbard
17 R
Alex Corbisiero
18 R
Dan Cole
19 R
Geoff Parling
20 R
Dan Lydiate
21 R
Conor Murray
22 R
Owen Farrell
23 R
Simon Zebo

sorry for that formatting!

No 7&1/2 wrote:sorry for that formatting!

Don't care about your formatting. The critical point here is I actually remembered the match, or at least one aspect, correctly! This is important....

Looking at the Lion's squad, on paper that is a pretty handy group of players. Which goes back to the point about scratch squads v. more settled squads.

I've seen a lot of clamour and utter confusion at the dropping of Mercer on social media.

I've not really seen it so much on here but if you know a tuppence about rugby you would understand Mercer didn't have much of a chance.....I can only presume SB brought him in to see what the hype was about tbh.

He's about as far away from a SB 8 as possible. SB seemingly values super high work rate, tight carrying and a strong defence....none of these are Mercer qualities.

It's going to be curious to see what Saracens can do with Tom Willis

People are bound to be disappointed when they see form players ignored to implement a game plan. That happens even when the game plan is ultra entertaining; see the cricket and Foakes.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've seen a lot of clamour and utter confusion at the dropping of Mercer on social media.

I've not really seen it so much on here but if you know a tuppence about rugby you would understand Mercer didn't have much of a chance.....I can only presume SB brought him in to see what the hype was about tbh.

He's about as far away from a SB 8 as possible. SB seemingly values super high work rate, tight carrying and a strong defence....none of these are Mercer qualities.

Dunno when I saw Mercer play for Montpellier his work rate was excellent to be fair.

Borthwick likes explosive carriers but he does like a very physical backrow and maybe that's where Mercer didn't quite measure up. You're right he's not one for making back to back big defensive hits. Neither is Dombrant but he's had the advantage of being around the England squad for a little while.