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England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 09 Aug 2023, 5:05 am

First topic message reminder :

Here we go again.....

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:29 am

Sticking plaster for the team for the Argentina game then. He won't be replaced in the squad.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Train strikes to be fair or there'd be even more people at Fiji. Its one of those times where we all want to say we were there. Like when 70000 Boro fans were at the match in Hartlepool before liquidation.
I forgot about the strikes. Impacts the Tube?

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:53 am

doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Train strikes to be fair or there'd be even more people at Fiji. Its one of those times where we all want to say we were there. Like when 70000 Boro fans were at the match in Hartlepool before liquidation.
I forgot about the strikes.  Impacts the Tube?

We're not taking that chance. We're driving in and using a parking App to pay to park on someone's driveway about 15 minutes from the stadium.

My thoughts are that the tube will be horrific, thanks to the train not being available.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Aug 2023, 10:03 am

mountain man wrote:
Heaf wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:I am genuinely close to not caring what punishments they get.

Fed up with Borthwick and his boring BS, as well as the total lack of gameplan.

I'm going to Twickenham at the weekend. Not really sure why. Oh yeah, that's it. To be entertained. Have Fiji ever beaten us? Don't think so. First time for everything I guess. Will we even score a try through the backs??

So depressing.
I will be home over the weekend and we were thinking about going to the Fiji match as well.  Can you imagine in any other RWC year that the last pre-RWC match is not nearly a full house at Twickenham?  Maybe some of the crowd are being cannibalised by the match the day before?

Maybe some think being cannibalised is preferable to watching England at the moment ....  annoyingly it's not on Prime either.

England v Fiji is on Amazon Prime. Coverage starts at 14:55 for the 15:15 kick off.

Whether you'll want to watch it is another matter!

Could be a few red cards in this one.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 23 Aug 2023, 10:05 am

Mr Bounce wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Train strikes to be fair or there'd be even more people at Fiji. Its one of those times where we all want to say we were there. Like when 70000 Boro fans were at the match in Hartlepool before liquidation.
I forgot about the strikes.  Impacts the Tube?

We're not taking that chance. We're driving in and using a parking App to pay to park on someone's driveway about 15 minutes from the stadium.

My thoughts are that the tube will be horrific, thanks to the train not being available.
That's a good idea.  And agree, the Tube will probably look like those scenes on the long distance trains in India with people hanging on for dear life...

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Post by Heaf Wed 23 Aug 2023, 11:34 am

mountain man wrote:
Heaf wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:I am genuinely close to not caring what punishments they get.

Fed up with Borthwick and his boring BS, as well as the total lack of gameplan.

I'm going to Twickenham at the weekend. Not really sure why. Oh yeah, that's it. To be entertained. Have Fiji ever beaten us? Don't think so. First time for everything I guess. Will we even score a try through the backs??

So depressing.
I will be home over the weekend and we were thinking about going to the Fiji match as well.  Can you imagine in any other RWC year that the last pre-RWC match is not nearly a full house at Twickenham?  Maybe some of the crowd are being cannibalised by the match the day before?

Maybe some think being cannibalised is preferable to watching England at the moment ....  annoyingly it's not on Prime either.

England v Fiji is on Amazon Prime. Coverage starts at 14:55 for the 15:15 kick off.

Whether you'll want to watch it is another matter!

Sorry I meant the NZ v Boks match which the Doc was referring to ....

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Post by king_carlos Wed 23 Aug 2023, 11:50 am

Mr Bounce wrote:Sticking plaster for the team for the Argentina game then. He won't be replaced in the squad.

I think most are in agreement that our best back row is looking likely to have Earl or Ludlam at 8 anyway.

Billy has been mince and a shadow of his former self. Dombrandt runs like someone doing couch to 5k that's dealing with chafing between the thighs for the first time. Simmonds ruled himself out and realistically didn't shine in a decent number of chances. Those are the standouts from the Premiership then...

I rate Tom Willis but honestly think it's a bit early for him to make an impact at a RWC. I'm excited to see what he can do working with the Sarries coaches though. When coming off the bench against Wales he made yards from tricky situations a couple of times. Once off a maul and once off a scrum. He's got good leg drive after contact.

Barbeary could be terrific but needs to stay fit and develop. That ability to get over the gain line against an organised defence is invaluable.

It's a bare cupboard.

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Post by Northgrill Wed 23 Aug 2023, 11:56 am

I’ve not seen Courtney handled like this before

https://x.com/andymcgeady/status/1693198199333212174?s=46&t=35XT85XSIV0TfcC6GTOQOg

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Post by king_carlos Wed 23 Aug 2023, 12:05 pm

Potential side for Fiji then?

I'd look to get players from the 33-man squad yet to feature game time but I'd also keep getting minutes in the legs of key players and potential combinations for the Argentina game.

1.Rodd 2.Dan 3.Stuart 4.Ribbans 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Daly 12.Lawrence 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Arundell

16.Walker 17.Marler 18.Cole 19.Martin 20.Ludlam 21.Care 22.Smith 23.Malins

Stuart starting again might raise eyebrows but TH isn't looking great and I'm hoping he can get better with game time. I think there's talent there but he's learning on the big stage.

Lawrence and Marchant may well be our best centre partnership for round 1 so getting them time together, alongside Ford makes sense. Likewise, if Curry doesn't recover then that might be the back row makeup with questions over Ludlam or Willis starting.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 23 Aug 2023, 12:14 pm

Northgrill wrote:I’ve not seen Courtney handled like this before

https://x.com/andymcgeady/status/1693198199333212174?s=46&t=35XT85XSIV0TfcC6GTOQOg

All players can get rag dolled at some point. Jasper Wiese is one of the best carriers in rugby but I saw him get absolutely planted backwards against Edinburgh last season watching Tigers. Jamie Ritchie is one of the best tacklers in rugby and in the same game I saw Wiese run flat over the top of him to score a try later in the game.

These things happen in rugby. Sometimes a lot gets made of them such as Henson on Tait. At other times they seem to get moved on from quickly. Jac Morgan smashing Tom Pearson seems to be doing that.

McCarthy certainly looks another good lock for Ireland though. Baird is an astonishingly talented lock and might miss out on the full strength 23. Faz Snr is in a very good position. One that ROG will likely inherit next up.

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Post by mountain man Wed 23 Aug 2023, 12:15 pm

king_carlos wrote:Potential side for Fiji then?

I'd look to get players from the 33-man squad yet to feature game time but I'd also keep getting minutes in the legs of key players and potential combinations for the Argentina game.

1.Rodd 2.Dan 3.Stuart 4.Ribbans 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Daly 12.Lawrence 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Arundell

16.Walker 17.Marler 18.Cole 19.Martin 20.Ludlam 21.Care 22.Smith 23.Malins

Stuart starting again might raise eyebrows but TH isn't looking great and I'm hoping he can get better with game time. I think there's talent there but he's learning on the big stage.

Lawrence and Marchant may well be our best centre partnership for round 1 so getting them time together, alongside Ford makes sense. Likewise, if Curry doesn't recover then that might be the back row makeup with questions over Ludlam or Willis starting.

That is something along lines I'd like to see. A big shake up to see how players do and variation of tactics be nice as well!

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 23 Aug 2023, 1:26 pm

England squad video, with a focus on Ollie Chessum


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Aug 2023, 1:31 pm

Lol. Ford: When something happens half way through a game....which it will.


Wonder if he's got another tenner on a red this week!

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 23 Aug 2023, 1:41 pm

I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

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Post by Oakdene Wed 23 Aug 2023, 1:48 pm

Will be interesting to how the Fijian pack go up against your pack.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Aug 2023, 2:09 pm

carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 Aug 2023, 2:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Ford: When something happens half way through a game....which it will.


Wonder if he's got another tenner on a red this week!

Manu?

Knowing England's luck it'll be Jamie George in a completely innocuous incident that will attract a far longer ban than Farrel got and leave us very short at hooker.

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 23 Aug 2023, 2:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

Itoje just hasn't been up to his usual standards recently.
In my opinion anyway

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Post by Oakdene Wed 23 Aug 2023, 2:43 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

Itoje just hasn't been up to his usual standards recently.
In my opinion anyway

I agree with this, I was a big fan when Itoje burst onto the scene. I remember him playing for your under 20's & thinking "he is going to be world class". Last season or so he's gone off the boil & gives away needless penalties. For me, he is there on past performances at the moment. A bit like we did with AWJ.

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Post by mountain man Wed 23 Aug 2023, 3:27 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

Itoje just hasn't been up to his usual standards recently.
In my opinion anyway

Itoje been a way off his best for a year or so. I believe a long term illness part of it but he's definitley not player he was. Same can be said for several others as well. I know a lot here pinning hopes on Curry but for me he's another who is below par.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Aug 2023, 3:31 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

Itoje just hasn't been up to his usual standards recently.
In my opinion anyway

True enough. Still miles the best lock we have though.

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Post by Oakdene Wed 23 Aug 2023, 3:32 pm

mountain man wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

Itoje just hasn't been up to his usual standards recently.
In my opinion anyway

Itoje been a way off his best for a year or so. I believe a long term illness part of it but he's definitley not player he was. Same can be said for several others as well. I know a lot here pinning hopes on Curry but for me he's another who is below par.

I always thought him & Underhill would become a formidable back row partnership.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 23 Aug 2023, 4:46 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:England squad video, with a focus on Ollie Chessum

It's a good watch that. Tigers had a similar mini-doc looking at Cam Henderson's rehab from an even nastier injury. It's interesting seeing players be that honest with things like learning how to run again, reduced range of motion after having a plate put in their leg. Those Inside Line series have been good for a while now to be fair.

I'm biased with Chessum but I thought he was one of the few bright points for England last week. Carried hard and made a big hit. In the lineout he's such a good jumper. One of those guys with a good jump on him so he gets off the ground and up in the air very quickly. Similar to someone like Woki. I've got high hopes for him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 Aug 2023, 5:13 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:England squad video, with a focus on Ollie Chessum

It's a good watch that. Tigers had a similar mini-doc looking at Cam Henderson's rehab from an even nastier injury. It's interesting seeing players be that honest with things like learning how to run again, reduced range of motion after having a plate put in their leg. Those Inside Line series have been good for a while now to be fair.

I'm biased with Chessum but I thought he was one of the few bright points for England last week. Carried hard and made a big hit. In the lineout he's such a good jumper. One of those guys with a good jump on him so he gets off the ground and up in the air very quickly. Similar to someone like Woki. I've got high hopes for him.

I really liked how much energy he brought onto the pitch. Chased down some Irish carriers. He looked like he doing well in the engine room in the 6N so it would be good if he could feature prominently at the world cup.

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Post by hugehandoff Wed 23 Aug 2023, 5:57 pm

with just 2 10s in the squad for the first two matches what happens if Ford or Smith get injured on Saturday? I appreciate a proper injury results in them being replaced in the squad but if a 2/3 weeks job? Risk having just one 10 against Argentina?

and I am hoping that Billy's absence enables us to find our best back row resulting in Billy not returning as we all know he is not playing well enough to be there. Lawes, Earl and Curry would be nice to see, but if Tom not fit then happy to see Willis run out.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Aug 2023, 6:35 pm

Oakdene wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

Itoje just hasn't been up to his usual standards recently.
In my opinion anyway

I agree with this, I was a big fan when Itoje burst onto the scene. I remember him playing for your under 20's & thinking "he is going to be world class". Last season or so he's gone off the boil & gives away needless penalties. For me, he is there on past performances at the moment. A bit like we did with AWJ.

I thought he was there for his bellowing and clapping at opposition mistakes? That's second to none for Itoje thumbsup

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 23 Aug 2023, 7:01 pm

hugehandoff wrote:with just 2 10s in the squad for the first two matches what happens if Ford or Smith get injured on Saturday? I appreciate a proper injury results in them being replaced in the squad but if a 2/3 weeks job? Risk having just one 10 against Argentina?

and I am hoping that Billy's absence enables us to find our best back row resulting in Billy not returning as we all know he is not playing well enough to be there. Lawes, Earl and Curry would be nice to see, but if Tom not fit then happy to see Willis run out.

Could Malins be back up 10? Or maybe Daly?

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:36 pm

mountain man wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

Itoje just hasn't been up to his usual standards recently.
In my opinion anyway

Itoje been a way off his best for a year or so. I believe a long term illness part of it but he's definitley not player he was. Same can be said for several others as well. I know a lot here pinning hopes on Curry but for me he's another who is below par.
blasphemy

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:40 pm

hugehandoff wrote:with just 2 10s in the squad for the first two matches what happens if Ford or Smith get injured on Saturday? I appreciate a proper injury results in them being replaced in the squad but if a 2/3 weeks job? Risk having just one 10 against Argentina?

and I am hoping that Billy's absence enables us to find our best back row resulting in Billy not returning as we all know he is not playing well enough to be there. Lawes, Earl and Curry would be nice to see, but if Tom not fit then happy to see Willis run out.
what happens if Marcus Smith or George Ford or both suffer an injury?

Nothing.

England can’t score with them, so what difference does it make unless the tactics change?


Last edited by doctor_grey on Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by yappysnap Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:44 pm

If I wanted to be a masochist and watch the EngvFij game, where could I potentially stream said game? For free. From NZ. Just in theory obvs...

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Post by yappysnap Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:50 pm

Oakdene wrote:
mountain man wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I have to say I think a Chessum/Ribbans second row is the best combo you have

As long as they're beside Itoje you're absolutely correct.

Itoje just hasn't been up to his usual standards recently.
In my opinion anyway

Itoje been a way off his best for a year or so. I believe a long term illness part of it but he's definitley not player he was. Same can be said for several others as well. I know a lot here pinning hopes on Curry but for me he's another who is below par.

I always thought him & Underhill would become a formidable back row partnership.

Feels that way for a lot of players though. At some point you have to wonder if it's not the players, but the coaches around them. Prem coaching seems below T14 and URC, and the England coaching has been in a nose dive for years now. No wonder a lot of promising players seem to stagnate rather than kick on.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:53 pm

yappysnap wrote:If I wanted to be a masochist and watch the EngvFij game, where could I potentially stream said game? For free. From NZ. Just in theory obvs...
a true English masochist will pay for the privilege. You’re getting soft down there in the other hemisphere.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 Aug 2023, 9:53 pm

yappysnap wrote:If I wanted to be a masochist and watch the EngvFij game, where could I potentially stream said game? For free. From NZ. Just in theory obvs...

Amazon Prime is your best bet, use a VPN to convince it you're still in the UK.

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Post by TJ Wed 23 Aug 2023, 10:52 pm

yappysnap - you have a pm

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Post by king_carlos Wed 23 Aug 2023, 10:57 pm

I use Surfshark as a VPN (set to Australia) and a Stan sports subscription for the Premiership. The same should work well with Amazon Prime as Sam says. Plenty of free VPNs are available. I use it a fair bit so paid something like £20 for a 5 year Surfshark subscription a bit back.

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 23 Aug 2023, 11:52 pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/08/23/england-marcus-smith-full-back-world-cup-steve-borthwick/

England have been working on a radical ‘plan B’ to deploy fly-half Marcus Smith at full-back as another one of their key players was ruled out of the World Cup opener.

On Wednesday morning Billy Vunipola received a three-match suspension for his dangerous tackle on Ireland prop Andrew Porter. That ban will count Vunipola out of the final warm-up game against Fiji on Saturday as well as their maiden Pool D match against Argentina on September 9, however he will be available for the following fixture against Japan on September 17 if he completes World Rugby’s ‘tackle school’ programme.

Head coach Steve Borthwick had already lost captain and fly-half Owen Farrell to another four-game ban for a high tackle that also rules him out of the Pumas clash. It is understood that there are fitness doubts over both flanker Tom Curry and wing Anthony Watson which is further testing Borthwick’s already strained resources.

In that regard, the coaching staff have been taking a close look at shifting Smith to full back to provide a second playmaking option alongside Ford at fly-half. Smith trained there in a behind-closed-doors practice match against Harlequins last week and then came on at full-back for the final 10 minutes of England’s 29-10 defeat to Ireland last week.

Smith’s introduction provided a flicker of life into England’s moribund attack, which has yielded the fewest number of tries of any tier-one country this year. It is understood that this option continues to intrigue Borthwick, who has delayed the internal naming of his team to face Fiji this week where he has to balance the need to build cohesion against the risk of incurring further injuries and suspensions.

Openside Jack Willis and second row Ollie Chessum, who suffered a broken ankle in March, are both pushing for starting places with England looking to rebuild momentum which has been further disrupted by Farrell and Vunipola’s suspensions.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 24 Aug 2023, 12:10 am

Rugby Fan wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/08/23/england-marcus-smith-full-back-world-cup-steve-borthwick/

England have been working on a radical ‘plan B’ to deploy fly-half Marcus Smith at full-back as another one of their key players was ruled out of the World Cup opener.

On Wednesday morning Billy Vunipola received a three-match suspension for his dangerous tackle on Ireland prop Andrew Porter. That ban will count Vunipola out of the final warm-up game against Fiji on Saturday as well as their maiden Pool D match against Argentina on September 9, however he will be available for the following fixture against Japan on September 17 if he completes World Rugby’s ‘tackle school’ programme.

Head coach Steve Borthwick had already lost captain and fly-half Owen Farrell to another four-game ban for a high tackle that also rules him out of the Pumas clash. It is understood that there are fitness doubts over both flanker Tom Curry and wing Anthony Watson which is further testing Borthwick’s already strained resources.

In that regard, the coaching staff have been taking a close look at shifting Smith to full back to provide a second playmaking option alongside Ford at fly-half. Smith trained there in a behind-closed-doors practice match against Harlequins last week and then came on at full-back for the final 10 minutes of England’s 29-10 defeat to Ireland last week.

Smith’s introduction provided a flicker of life into England’s moribund attack, which has yielded the fewest number of tries of any tier-one country this year. It is understood that this option continues to intrigue Borthwick, who has delayed the internal naming of his team to face Fiji this week where he has to balance the need to build cohesion against the risk of incurring further injuries and suspensions.

Openside Jack Willis and second row Ollie Chessum, who suffered a broken ankle in March, are both pushing for starting places with England looking to rebuild momentum which has been further disrupted by Farrell and Vunipola’s suspensions.
Panique. I smell panique.

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Post by yappysnap Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:13 am

TJ wrote:yappysnap - you have a pm

Cheeeeers

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Post by yappysnap Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:14 am

Oohhh the excitement of getting up at 5am to watch England make history losing to Fiji

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Post by yappysnap Thu 24 Aug 2023, 4:16 am

Rugby Fan wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/08/23/england-marcus-smith-full-back-world-cup-steve-borthwick/

England have been working on a radical ‘plan B’ to deploy fly-half Marcus Smith at full-back as another one of their key players was ruled out of the World Cup opener.

On Wednesday morning Billy Vunipola received a three-match suspension for his dangerous tackle on Ireland prop Andrew Porter. That ban will count Vunipola out of the final warm-up game against Fiji on Saturday as well as their maiden Pool D match against Argentina on September 9, however he will be available for the following fixture against Japan on September 17 if he completes World Rugby’s ‘tackle school’ programme.

Head coach Steve Borthwick had already lost captain and fly-half Owen Farrell to another four-game ban for a high tackle that also rules him out of the Pumas clash. It is understood that there are fitness doubts over both flanker Tom Curry and wing Anthony Watson which is further testing Borthwick’s already strained resources.

In that regard, the coaching staff have been taking a close look at shifting Smith to full back to provide a second playmaking option alongside Ford at fly-half. Smith trained there in a behind-closed-doors practice match against Harlequins last week and then came on at full-back for the final 10 minutes of England’s 29-10 defeat to Ireland last week.

Smith’s introduction provided a flicker of life into England’s moribund attack, which has yielded the fewest number of tries of any tier-one country this year. It is understood that this option continues to intrigue Borthwick, who has delayed the internal naming of his team to face Fiji this week where he has to balance the need to build cohesion against the risk of incurring further injuries and suspensions.

Openside Jack Willis and second row Ollie Chessum, who suffered a broken ankle in March, are both pushing for starting places with England looking to rebuild momentum which has been further disrupted by Farrell and Vunipola’s suspensions.

Smith will be fine. It's not the individual players really, it's the Poopie coaching.

At least his being there will give a different target for people to incorrectly blame instead of Steward.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Aug 2023, 6:51 am

Man Smith to full back is really radical left field thinking from Borthwick; I love it! I was a bit concerned that Borthwick would move too far away from ideas that were clearing working with Jones but pleased he's trying the exact same things as 9 just under a year ago. And I agree if the players somehow throw this away the fault lies with them, they've been given the absolute best prep available. They just need to go out and enjoy it now. England expects!

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