England still winning the RWC at a canter - The RWC phase

First topic message reminder :

Assuming and currently it is quite a big assumption England get through group I can't see them winning QF against whoever they face. Bloody hopeless

There you go then. All to plan. Bore everyone to death. Happy with the way we played. It's Borthwick after Itlay all over again. We backed last week up. Dear god.

Australia were poor but Fiji were superb.
I would rather play Wales. Or Australia.

I can see that win has cheered you all up

No chance of beating Fiji ...

Cumbrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Blimey, a bonus point.

Very laborious stuff. That highly fortunate try probably broke Japan's spirit, and the humidity eventually sapped Japan's energy, allowing England to put up a flattering margin of victory.

I hope England don't make it to the semis because, on this evidence, the likes of France/SA/NZ/Ire will destroy England by a humiliating margin. Better to have a respectable defeat to Fiji or Aus in the QFs.

Don't be daft, how would a defeat to either of those be 'respectable'?  Australia are absolutely mince, and whilst I respect the last result, I would expect us to to beat Fiji in a competitive world cup game.  

I'd take a 25-22 loss to Fiji, over getting destroyed 59-3 by France, personally.

I wouldn't expect England to beat Fiji on current form. Fiji look the best side out of the Group C/D lot.

Good entertainment - but just a couple of decent pub sides that won't be troubling the latter stages of the competition.

Mind you, Marler's "over 'ere John, on the 'ead" moment was world class - definitely a training ground move.

Duty281 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Blimey, a bonus point.

Very laborious stuff. That highly fortunate try probably broke Japan's spirit, and the humidity eventually sapped Japan's energy, allowing England to put up a flattering margin of victory.

I hope England don't make it to the semis because, on this evidence, the likes of France/SA/NZ/Ire will destroy England by a humiliating margin. Better to have a respectable defeat to Fiji or Aus in the QFs.

Don't be daft, how would a defeat to either of those be 'respectable'?  Australia are absolutely mince, and whilst I respect the last result, I would expect us to to beat Fiji in a competitive world cup game.  

I'd take a 25-22 loss to Fiji, over getting destroyed 59-3 by France, personally.

I wouldn't expect England to beat Fiji on current form. Fiji look the best side out of the Group C/D lot.

Again, how often do we get beat by those sorts of numbers? If we were lucky enough to get through to play France, I’m sure it would be a nervy affair that they would eventually win. The only sure thing against Ireland is that we would get a red card.

I understand the negativity, but we’ve beaten the two toughest teams in our group (one with 14 men and the other with a BP), despite me hearing about how we would definitely lose to one or both of them. Get to the knock-outs, then everyone has a punchers chance. I mean 2007 was in France for goodness sake and we have a much better team than them. Chin up lads!

Look England could now win every game in group but that performance was awful and I have no confidence it'll improve much. After being so good in adversity last week this was grim
It must be Borthwick plan to just kick it whenever and wherever regardless of situation which is depressing.

mountain man wrote:Look England could now win every game in group but that performance was awful and I have no confidence it'll improve much. After being so good in adversity last week this was grim
It must be Borthwick plan to just kick it whenever and wherever regardless of situation which is depressing.

It will improve....its about implementing the tactics properly which we didn't tonight.

But I do expect small improvements through the tournament.  

This world Cup was too soon for this side...so 6n and summer( with a few personel changes) is where you'll see the big step forwards.

The worrying thing is that we'll get through to the knockouts, and given how poor Wales and Australia have been, if we win that qf we'd be in a semi final by playing rubbish rugby.

As the RFU like "results" we'll now be stuck with Borthwick and his "kick it at all costs" mentality. For FOUR MORE YEARS.

Geordie wrote:Well...I can see what they were doing..but implemented poorly,  kicked TOO much and Japan aren't as bad as people were suggesting.  

Fitness told in the end..and we started to show rhat there actually is some attack there...just Need to see it more.

On to Chile.  Less kicking please

Not sure about the fitness thing in the second half. I think England's subs were just better than the Japan subs and also bringing on Marcus Smith added energy which was lacking before he came on. Bringing on Genge, for example, as an impact sub is almost unfair.

At this rate England are going to have a quarter final against Fiji and then on to a semi-final from which anything can happen. What are the odds on an England forward heading them to victory in the final?

Japan looked better than recent matches and played at the pace they have been renowned for. England struggled with attacking cohesion until the final quarter when the penny dropped a little bit and they started to find the edge of Japan's defensive line and play a bit of running rugby. Handling was pish poor and really Stopped our momentum. Fordy and Daly need to mix it up more and see when to run and when to kick as great attacking platforms were squandered.

Our scramble defence was actually pretty good and we didn't concede a try, unheard of recently. Six penalties against is a pretty good number however four of them were in kicking range. Fitness was also good bearing in mind the heat and humidity which apparently is shocking for handling meaning running rugby is more tricky. If we attack like we did for the last 10 mins every time we are close to the opposition 22 I will be happy and we might start causing bigger teams headaches.

Finally isn't it nice not to discuss the refs performance as he just did his job really well with fairness and empathy. Both teams should also congratulate themselves on not bringing soccer attitudes onto the pitch. Refreshing.

Gréât performance from England in the second half. Their obsession with kicking away possession seems to continue but when they played a more ‘natural’ game in the final half hour I thought they looked a much better side. Daly really stood out for me, he does the basics really well and offered stability in a backline lacking in confidence. Several backs seemed to almost emerge from the malaise of previous matches to show their true skill set in that final quarter. More of that and England may well find themselves in a strong position at the business end of the tournament.

Olivier Magne isn't impressed with England.

Cette équipe Anglaise est d'une laideur ! Aucune envie, aucune joie aucune cohérence ... C'est un rugby répulsif, avec un Ford au sommet de la négation du jeu.

(Approx translation: "This English team is ugly! No desire, no joy, no consistency... It's repulsive rugby, with Ford the epitome of negative rugby.")

https://twitter.com/MagneOlivier1/status/1703492440114500025

Yes. Bar Ford. Its not the players fault they're sticking to the tactics.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes. Bar Ford. Its not the players fault they're sticking to the tactics.

Whilst Ford is the epitome of pragmatism. Mitchell playing at a snails pace and kicking badly was made to look worse when Ben Youngs, yes Ben Youngs, came on and added more tempo, better kicking and actually ran more with the ball. The added tenacity in defence from Youngs was also a refreshing change.

England got into space in the 15m three or four times in the first half. Daly kicked away the attacking space, most the kicks weren't bad they were just negative when there was clearly another option. The other occasion was Lawes line break which we really needed some one quicker in that position.

Borthwick loading the bench for impact was something he did at Tigers, particularly at the start of his time there. He'd back Walters fitness regime to be better than the opposition (England were certainly fitter than Japan) and then bring on players to change the tempo of the game. Used to cause consternation amongst Tigers fans when some of the perceived form players would start on the bench but as a tactic it did tend to work. As time went on and the attack became more reliable he used it less.

Ford and Mitchell so good last week were really poor against Japan I thought. Too slow, wrong options just about every time and Englands total inability to alter tactics even though it's blindingly obvious it is needed is criminal.
Even Japan coach Jamie Joseph mentioning it!

Sorry but that is indefensible from Borthwick assuming players were sticking to his game plan of kick and then kick it a bit more and if that doesn't work keep kicking it.

Great if defending in own 22 but the amount of times Ford etc kicked through when in Japan half was almost unbelieveable. I say almost but as it's England it's not. It's bloody so depressingly predictable.

Set piece not good enough and this was Japan not SA.

Smith at least made a positive impact when he finally got on but also by then Japan had run out of steam.

mountain man wrote:Ford and Mitchell so good last week were really poor against Japan I thought. Too slow, wrong options just about every time and Englands total inability to alter tactics even though it's blindingly obvious it is needed is criminal.
Even Japan coach Jamie Joseph mentioning it!

Sorry but that is indefensible from Borthwick assuming players were sticking to his game plan of kick and then kick it a bit more and if that doesn't work keep kicking it.

Great if defending in own 22 but the amount of times Ford etc kicked through when in Japan half was almost unbelieveable. I say almost but as it's England it's not. It's bloody so depressingly predictable.

Set piece not good enough and this was Japan not SA.

Smith at least made a positive impact when he finally got on but also by then Japan had run out of steam.

England kick when the attack loses shape as trying to recycle the ball and reset the shape is the time a team is most vulnerable to being turned over. France and South Africa do pretty much the same thing. Difference is they don't make anywhere near as many handling errors in the opposition 22 which is the area of most frustration for me.

Ford controlled proceedings fairly well, not as good as last weekend. Japan had done their homework and kicked in behind our wingers instead of to Steward and Ford in the backfield. They were barely in the second half though.

Come on, England kick REGARDLESS, that's the issue. Wasn't down to handling errors as hardly anyone got to get ball as it was kicked away all the time.

Heard a stat Manu carried 3 times in first half? Considering his game is making yards with ball in hand to get over gainline and burst through tackles I don't think they are using him right in that case.

Whichever way you look at it, that was woeful especially 1st half. As bad as warm up games.

I disagree about Ford controlling things, all he did pretty much was kick it and far too often wrong option. It's the total lack of heads up rugby(yes that old cliche) which is so depressingly familiar.

Look, I think when he took over he made the decision to rip the tactics apart and go back to basics...much like he did at the Tigers.

Now its coming but its slow progress...and the players are following the instructions almost too much at the moment..ie there was WAY too much kicking last night...even SB said they need to learn to adapt, and an example of that was Daly kicking when wide open. Now thats not like him as hes a talented player.

Clearly the attack is there as they showed in the last 20 mins....but they are are just focusing on building pressure etc and wearing teams down first.

I have faith it will come...but it wont be for this world cup...its a big rebuilding job and we need some new personnel which i think SB knows...but he also knows the new players arent quite ready yet.

Japan ran back several kicks and to good effect, a better team will do same but will likely score. If England kick like that against say Fiji in QF I can see some great tries being scored.

mountain man wrote:Japan ran back several kicks and to good effect, a better team will do same but will likely score. If England kick like that against say Fiji in QF I can see some great tries being scored.

Absolutely...much of the implementation was poor. At the same time...when we finally opened up in the last 15 mins....we cut them to bits.

Work in progress. Will we win this WC...absolutely not. Are things being put in place already for next 6n and summer and Autumn internationals.yes.

Expect to see some personnel changes after this world cup also.

What we do know is Smith unlikely to play 10. It's interesting tactic to try him at 15 as a sub but I'd rather him at 10. England have better options at 15 anyway.

Farrell definitely be in team for Chile, I reckon 12 with Ford 10. Smith dropped. Not my choice but anyway.

Steward if only a bit quicker be good option for wing, he's so good under high ball and his height gives big advantage as seen for his try, especially as that is England tactic of course. Kicking.

I would like to see a shake up for Chile but be pointless as surely England going to get BP win regardless.

Heaf wrote:No chance of beating Fiji ...

Every chance of beating Fiji. They have a fantastic running game and their basics are much better than they used to be, but their lineout is pretty rubbish and they didn't actually score much from those wonderful sweeping runs. It is all about controlling the ball (and not kicking it back to them every time)

I am really not saying England are any good - they are not - but they have a very good chance of going a long way even playing like they do

Lot of comment about kicking away ball when attacking, a slightly different perspective would be, was it really on playing ball in hand ? No teams apply pressure with continual ball in hand and most teams only score from pressure in the opposition 22 - there aren't many long range tries.
The current no.1 side score most of their tries starting with a lineout.... Japan play on the basis they will score more tries than the opposition, so a strong defensive line and pressure rugby from England, made sense. Yes accuracy could be improved with both the kicks and the chase but you can see the plan - it's basically what SA do although you would have to question whether England have the personnel against the top teams with the required set piece tonnage.
Whoever England play in the quarters will be very instructive on the future England playing style. In some ways what is playing out with England is similar to what happened with Leicester when Borthwick took over.

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:No chance of beating Fiji ...

Every chance of beating Fiji. They have a fantastic running game and their basics are much better than they used to be, but their lineout is pretty rubbish and they didn't actually score much from those wonderful sweeping runs. It is all about controlling the ball (and not kicking it back to them every time)

I am really not saying England are any good - they are not - but they have a very good chance of going a long way even playing like they do

I agree. The RWC, especially in the later stages, is at least as much about being hard to beat as it is about playing scintillating rugby.

Borthwick is rebuilding England from its foundations. So far, in the matches that count, we've seen evidence that he's fixed a lot of the basics:
- Fitness - excellent against Argentina, and outlasted a Japan squad who have made playing to the death something of a speciality
- Setpiece - a bit reliant on George, but it's been reliable.
- Discipline - the Curry red card aside, England's penalty count has been low in both matches
- Defence - one try conceded in two games, and that after 65 minutes of playing a man down. Kev's system is starting to work, and the scramble defence and resolve in the red zone are high. We haven't played a truly attacking team yet - the game against Samoa will be instructive
- Breakdown - significantly improved over the 6N and England are winning the red zone turnovers that really matter

What's not there yet is:
- Tactical decision making - the kicking has generally been effective at ensuring we play in the right parts of the field, but the players are using it when there are better options available
- Timing and communication - several possible tries were left on the field because players weren't aware of their options or the positioning or timing of runs was off.

Both of those can come with time - and I thought some of the broken field play in the last 10 minutes showed what England might be able to do as they build familiarity. But it's a newly assembled squad, with a newly designed attack and the timing is the last bit to come together.

If Fiji's and England's roles were swapped - and Fiji had comfortably beaten Argentina with 14 men and then had a BP win against Japan, and England had lost to Wales and won by a score against Aus. What odds there would still be the same praise for Fiji and with respect to England there'd still be folks moaning that it was a rubbish Aus side, too little too late against Wales, etc?

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:No chance of beating Fiji ...

Every chance of beating Fiji. They have a fantastic running game and their basics are much better than they used to be, but their lineout is pretty rubbish and they didn't actually score much from those wonderful sweeping runs. It is all about controlling the ball (and not kicking it back to them every time)

I am really not saying England are any good - they are not - but they have a very good chance of going a long way even playing like they do

I agree. The RWC, especially in the later stages, is at least as much about being hard to beat as it is about playing scintillating rugby.

Borthwick is rebuilding England from its foundations. So far, in the matches that count, we've seen evidence that he's fixed a lot of the basics:
- Fitness - excellent against Argentina, and outlasted a Japan squad who have made playing to the death something of a speciality
- Setpiece - a bit reliant on George, but it's been reliable.
- Discipline - the Curry red card aside, England's penalty count has been low in both matches
- Defence - one try conceded in two games, and that after 65 minutes of playing a man down. Kev's system is starting to work, and the scramble defence and resolve in the red zone are high. We haven't played a truly attacking team yet - the game against Samoa will be instructive
- Breakdown - significantly improved over the 6N and England are winning the red zone turnovers that really matter

What's not there yet is:
- Tactical decision making - the kicking has generally been effective at ensuring we play in the right parts of the field, but the players are using it when there are better options available
- Timing and communication - several possible tries were left on the field because players weren't aware of their options or the positioning or timing of runs was off.

Both of those can come with time - and I thought some of the broken field play in the last 10 minutes showed what England might be able to do as they build familiarity. But it's a newly assembled squad, with a newly designed attack and the timing is the last bit to come together.

But set piece isnt good enough. Line out is OK but scrum about on par with Japan who aren't exactly renowned for their scrummaging.
Penalty count is good.
Tactical awareness dreadful, truly dreadful.
This is not a new squad! Majority been in and around England team for years and several last RWC. OK new coaching team but I find lack of cohesion a real worry.
Can only assume Borthwick has instructed Ford etc to kick at all times regardless. You'd hope a player of Fords experience would know to deviate a bit from time to time but no.

Sorry but memory of how bad England were is still too vivid!

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:No chance of beating Fiji ...

Every chance of beating Fiji. They have a fantastic running game and their basics are much better than they used to be, but their lineout is pretty rubbish and they didn't actually score much from those wonderful sweeping runs. It is all about controlling the ball (and not kicking it back to them every time)

I am really not saying England are any good - they are not - but they have a very good chance of going a long way even playing like they do

That's England screwed then.

mountain man wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:No chance of beating Fiji ...

Every chance of beating Fiji. They have a fantastic running game and their basics are much better than they used to be, but their lineout is pretty rubbish and they didn't actually score much from those wonderful sweeping runs. It is all about controlling the ball (and not kicking it back to them every time)

I am really not saying England are any good - they are not - but they have a very good chance of going a long way even playing like they do

I agree. The RWC, especially in the later stages, is at least as much about being hard to beat as it is about playing scintillating rugby.

Borthwick is rebuilding England from its foundations. So far, in the matches that count, we've seen evidence that he's fixed a lot of the basics:
- Fitness - excellent against Argentina, and outlasted a Japan squad who have made playing to the death something of a speciality
- Setpiece - a bit reliant on George, but it's been reliable.
- Discipline - the Curry red card aside, England's penalty count has been low in both matches
- Defence - one try conceded in two games, and that after 65 minutes of playing a man down. Kev's system is starting to work, and the scramble defence and resolve in the red zone are high. We haven't played a truly attacking team yet - the game against Samoa will be instructive
- Breakdown - significantly improved over the 6N and England are winning the red zone turnovers that really matter

What's not there yet is:
- Tactical decision making - the kicking has generally been effective at ensuring we play in the right parts of the field, but the players are using it when there are better options available
- Timing and communication - several possible tries were left on the field because players weren't aware of their options or the positioning or timing of runs was off.

Both of those can come with time - and I thought some of the broken field play in the last 10 minutes showed what England might be able to do as they build familiarity. But it's a newly assembled squad, with a newly designed attack and the timing is the last bit to come together.

But set piece isnt good enough. Line out is OK but scrum about on par with Japan who aren't exactly renowned for their scrummaging.
Penalty count is good.
Tactical awareness dreadful, truly dreadful.
This is not a new squad!  Majority been in and around England team for years and several last RWC. OK new coaching team but I find lack of cohesion a real worry.
Can only assume Borthwick has instructed Ford etc to kick at all times regardless. You'd hope a player of Fords experience would know to deviate a bit from time to time but no.

Sorry but memory of how bad England were is still too vivid!

I think you're projecting your disappointment over the dullness of the play onto the side a bit.

We bettered Japan in the scrum, not enough to be dominant but Japan aren't a poor side in that regard so I'll take edging it. We did pretty well against Argentina at scrum time as well though Will Stuart is still looking iffy in that department which is a concern.

Lineout is improving all the time. We disrupted Japan and got some decent lineout mauls going.

A way to go in those areas but still an improvement on where they were under Eddie.

There's a lot of new combinations in this squad still bedding in. The backline hasn't played together as a unit before last weekend was it? Maybe the Fiji game I forget. Daly was awful kicking away ball he could have run. Admittedly the grubbers into the corner did cause chaos for Japan but we want that to be the last resort not his first choice.

Tactical awareness was actually very good. We dominated possession and territory. Execution of the attack was woeful. We conceded a lot of possession with knock ons that really should not have happened. Until we tighten up some of that interplay and ball retention we're likely to see kick heavy games because Borthwick doesn't want his team to play on the back foot as that's where you are more likely to concede penalties and that's what tended to kill us under Eddie. Overplay and concede a penalty on half way. Opposition kick to the corner and turn the screw. Another penalty, then another penalty. Opposition don't kick the three because they know our defence will break and they'll score or the ref will sin bin somebody.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:No chance of beating Fiji ...

Every chance of beating Fiji. They have a fantastic running game and their basics are much better than they used to be, but their lineout is pretty rubbish and they didn't actually score much from those wonderful sweeping runs. It is all about controlling the ball (and not kicking it back to them every time)

I am really not saying England are any good - they are not - but they have a very good chance of going a long way even playing like they do

I agree. The RWC, especially in the later stages, is at least as much about being hard to beat as it is about playing scintillating rugby.

Borthwick is rebuilding England from its foundations. So far, in the matches that count, we've seen evidence that he's fixed a lot of the basics:
- Fitness - excellent against Argentina, and outlasted a Japan squad who have made playing to the death something of a speciality
- Setpiece - a bit reliant on George, but it's been reliable.
- Discipline - the Curry red card aside, England's penalty count has been low in both matches
- Defence - one try conceded in two games, and that after 65 minutes of playing a man down. Kev's system is starting to work, and the scramble defence and resolve in the red zone are high. We haven't played a truly attacking team yet - the game against Samoa will be instructive
- Breakdown - significantly improved over the 6N and England are winning the red zone turnovers that really matter

What's not there yet is:
- Tactical decision making - the kicking has generally been effective at ensuring we play in the right parts of the field, but the players are using it when there are better options available
- Timing and communication - several possible tries were left on the field because players weren't aware of their options or the positioning or timing of runs was off.

Both of those can come with time - and I thought some of the broken field play in the last 10 minutes showed what England might be able to do as they build familiarity. But it's a newly assembled squad, with a newly designed attack and the timing is the last bit to come together.

But set piece isnt good enough. Line out is OK but scrum about on par with Japan who aren't exactly renowned for their scrummaging.
Penalty count is good.
Tactical awareness dreadful, truly dreadful.
This is not a new squad!  Majority been in and around England team for years and several last RWC. OK new coaching team but I find lack of cohesion a real worry.
Can only assume Borthwick has instructed Ford etc to kick at all times regardless. You'd hope a player of Fords experience would know to deviate a bit from time to time but no.

Sorry but memory of how bad England were is still too vivid!

I think you're projecting your disappointment over the dullness of the play onto the side a bit.

We bettered Japan in the scrum, not enough to be dominant but Japan aren't a poor side in that regard so I'll take edging it. We did pretty well against Argentina at scrum time as well though Will Stuart is still looking iffy in that department which is a concern.

Lineout is improving all the time. We disrupted Japan and got some decent lineout mauls going.

A way to go in those areas but still an improvement on where they were under Eddie.

There's a lot of new combinations in this squad still bedding in. The backline hasn't played together as a unit before last weekend was it? Maybe the Fiji game I forget. Daly was awful kicking away ball he could have run. Admittedly the grubbers into the corner did cause chaos for Japan but we want that to be the last resort not his first choice.

Tactical awareness was actually very good. We dominated possession and territory. Execution of the attack was woeful. We conceded a lot of possession with knock ons that really should not have happened. Until we tighten up some of that interplay and ball retention we're likely to see kick heavy games because Borthwick doesn't want his team to play on the back foot as that's where you are more likely to concede penalties and that's what tended to kill us under Eddie. Overplay and concede a penalty on half way. Opposition kick to the corner and turn the screw. Another penalty, then another penalty. Opposition don't kick the three because they know our defence will break and they'll score or the ref will sin bin somebody.

Sam as i said above...i think there will be quite a few personnel changes post world cup and i expect him to be one....just not at the races at all.

In regards to the scrum. I get the impression we didn't attack Japan to conserve energy as is was flipping hot out there.

Lineout - we won 10 out of 13 lineouts...and stole 2 of Japans
Scrum - we won 9 out of 11 scrums....

Set piece is not bad!

People are just expecting us to play like South Africa and then Fiji when we have the ball. Deluded.

The rebuild has began

It is interesting with May and Daly. They both know what to do, but I don't think either have that kind of top end pace that turn half chances into tries anymore, and neither are tricky runners. Our fastest player yesterday would have been Marchant.

If's and buts and why didn't we when we had the chance but it is annoying that we have really fast wingers left at home. Maybe they'll never be the full package, maybe there is always that trade off that Radwan isn't going to win many battles in the air, but I do wish we had spent more time developing realistic options. Arundell must be due back at some point

lostinwales wrote:It is interesting with May and Daly. They both know what to do, but I don't think either have that kind of top end pace that turn half chances into tries anymore, and neither are tricky runners. Our fastest player yesterday would have been Marchant.

If's and buts and why didn't we when we had the chance but it is annoying that we have really fast wingers left at home. Maybe they'll never be the full package, maybe there is always that trade off that Radwan isn't going to win many battles in the air, but I do wish we had spent more time developing realistic options. Arundell must be due back at some point

Radders scored another cracking poachers try at the weekend.

Surely if you have some doubt over a players aerial ability...and you have Steward in there...you can work something out defensively.

Geordie wrote:Lineout - we won 10 out of 13 lineouts...and stole 2 of Japans
Scrum - we won 9 out of 11 scrums....

Set piece is not bad!

People are just expecting us to play like South Africa and then Fiji when we have the ball. Deluded.

The rebuild has began

But this was Japan, they should have won every scrum. That's issue, if they do play against SA they will get murdered. Reality not delusion.

As for Radwan, Ive been banging that drum for a while but can't see him getting a sniff. If fit I'd love Arundell to play Chile game.

Why? Are Japan a bad scrummaging team??? Id say no they arent.

And NO team wins every bloody scrum these days anyway!

Interesting take on England's woeful attack. I mostly don't like what Matt Williams has to say, but I think he is spot on here. He speaks from 1 minute in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXMMolJe09Q

The last 10 seconds....from Semi Finals on...this style is a leveller....

PS just to add...i dont believe this is the finished style of rugby they want to play. This is back to basics rebuilding...not much they can do at the moment until the rebuild is underway and this side has the basics down well...

Geordie wrote:Why? Are Japan a bad scrummaging team??? Id say no they arent.

And NO team wins every bloody scrum these days anyway!

No Japan not a bad team but I think we're setting bar low if that's it. I hope I'm wrong but I thought last night was shocking, really bad. At one point I seriously thought England could have lost match.

OK conditions were poor and pitch cutting up etc but I'm struggling to be optimistic despite BP win. Dawson(!) says in his article that 2nd half was best England have played under Borthwick, think that shows just how bad they were.

hugehandoff wrote:Interesting take on England's woeful attack. I mostly don't like what Matt Williams has to say, but I think he is spot on here. He speaks from 1 minute in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXMMolJe09Q

I wouldnt be that surprised if someone from England's side of the draw made the final and so far it looks like most likely that it would be England because Wales, Argentina and Australia have looked dreadful.

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Why? Are Japan a bad scrummaging team??? Id say no they arent.

And NO team wins every bloody scrum these days anyway!

No Japan not a bad team but I think we're setting bar low if that's it. I hope I'm wrong but I thought last night was shocking, really bad. At one point I seriously thought England could have lost match.

OK conditions were poor and pitch cutting up etc but I'm struggling to be optimistic despite  BP win. Dawson(!) says in his article that 2nd half was best England have played under Borthwick, think that shows just how bad they were.

Not long ago everyone was cheering Japan for their rugby...and whilst they have fallen a bit...i think they found some of their form again last night. So ...no we're not setting the bar low.

We're going game by game. Beat whats in front of you.

England are litterally rebuilding whilst being in a World Cup....this was supposed to be Borthwicks job....AFTER this world cup.

How is this a rebuild if have so many of the old guard?

Billy, Cole, Marler, Manu, Daly, May, Youngs even Farrell. I totally agree a rebuild is needed but not sure we're actually seeing it yet.
Of course can't change every player but it's disappointing who is in if this is part of rebuild.

Anyway, England going to get BP win over Chile and maybe over Samoa and top group. I guess won't learn much now until QF.

I actually think England were far better in loss to Ireland in 6N after losing Steward. Lost match but play was way better.

mountain man wrote:How is this a rebuild if have so many of the old guard?

Billy, Cole, Marler, Manu, Daly, May, Youngs even Farrell. I totally agree a rebuild is needed but not sure we're actually seeing it yet.
Of course can't change every player but it's disappointing who is in if this is part of rebuild.

Anyway, England going to get BP win over Chile and maybe over Samoa and top group. I guess won't learn much now until QF.

Because everything had fallen apart under Jones. All the set piece, the defence, the tactics have to be built from Scratch. This was not mean to happen during a world cup ....but it got so bad they sacked Jones and put Borthwick in a right old position. Dont forget most teams have had 4-6 years of building for this!

Did he get the squad selection wrong by picking too many old guard. Possibly...there are certainly some debates...like Mercer, Radwan etc...but clearly he felt the old guys (who mostly are top performing in the prem still) were the ones to allow us to go back to basics.
And many of the kids arent ready yet....

Anyway we could win the whole bloody thing and people would still be peed off with the style etc. So lets just see how we go.

Rugby Ranter Banter podcast has started putting out some videos.

Collapse2005 wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:Interesting take on England's woeful attack. I mostly don't like what Matt Williams has to say, but I think he is spot on here. He speaks from 1 minute in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXMMolJe09Q

I wouldnt be that surprised if someone from England's side of the draw made the final and so far it looks like most likely that it would be England because Wales, Argentina and Australia have looked dreadful.

I mean obviously because England have looked so great.

You've got to make a case for Fiji who are currently second favourites to qualify from Pool C.

Anyway we could win the whole bloody thing and people would still be peed off with the style etc. So lets just see how we go.

Well I've always said winning is what matters. Far better to win playing badly than lose playing brilliantly but my concern is they are so poor in attack and lack of variation that a better team will eat them up. Look at possession England had in Japan half and kicked it away, repeatedly.

If England win RWC(highly unlikely but anyway) even if it's by kicks alone then great. Issue is they won't by kicks alone as other teams WILL score tries and if England turn over possession they will get punished.

Anyway, let's see what QF brings. Don't think we'll learn much from next two games.

Nick Evan's has summed up the approach of the current top four test sides.
Squeeze set piece,
Strangle with kicking game &
Suffocate with defence.

For reference France kicked 44 times in their win over NZ. You can perhaps debate when and how they kicked but they did kick the leather off the ball.