3rd QF England v Fiji - Stade de Marseille

First topic message reminder :

England: 15. Marcus Smith 14. Jonny May  13. Joe Marchant  12. Manu Tuilagi  11. Elliot Daly 10. Owen Farrell (c)9. Alex Mitchell 1. Ellis Genge 2. Jamie George 3. Dan Cole 4. Maro Itoje 5. Ollie Chessum 6. Courtney Lawes 7. Tom Curry 8. Ben Earl

Replacements: 16. Theo Dan  17. Joe Marler  18. Kyle Sinckler 19. George Martin  20. Billy Vunipola  21. Danny Care  22. George Ford  23. Ollie Lawrence  

Fiji: 1. Eroni Mawi 2. Tevita Ikanivere 3. Luke Tagi 4. Isoa Nasilasila 5. Albert Tuisue 6. Lekima Tagitagivalu 7. Levani Botia 8. Viliame Mata 9. Frank Lomani 10. Vilimoni Botitu 11. Semi Radradra 12. Josua Tuisova 13. Waisea Nayacalevu (c) 14. Vinaya Habosi 15. Ilaisa Droasese

Replacements: 16. Samuel Matavesi 17. Peni Ravai 18. Mesake Doge 19. Meli Derenalagi 20. Vilive Miramira 21. Simione Kuruvoli 22. Iosefo Masi 23. Sireli Maqala

Referee: Mathieu Raynal TMO: Ben Whitehouse

Assistant referees: Nic Berry (Australia) and Pierre Broussett (France)

mountain man wrote:Earl excellent as was Lawes. Farrell not too bad in fairness.

Farrell as man of the match is ridiculous. Thought he was OK overall, but not more than that. Could have blown it with a yellow with that deliberate knock.

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

Well done England! They were the better side for the majority of the game despite the pretty unclear officiating at times. They played very well at the breakdown and won most of the little battles. Not bad considering where they've been prior to the tournament.

Huge effort by Fiji who were still able to come close and tighten up their all round game. Losing Caleb Muntz before the tournament (who was a key part player in over England at Twickenham) made feel they might not do as well as they could. They made a QF and nearly a semi! I hope they can continue to be this good and make the knock out stages once more in 2027.

Feels like as usual Lawes, Itoje and Earl bailed the team out there. Each brilliant throughout the game and they did a real job on that Fiji lineout.

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

And especially those pesky quarter finals!

In all seriousness though, we made that much harder than it should of been. A semi is a cracking achievement but i expect us to be soundly beat.

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

Did last time.

doctor_grey wrote:

mountain man wrote:Earl excellent as was Lawes. Farrell not too bad in fairness.

Farrell as man of the match is ridiculous.  Thought he was OK overall, but not more than that.  Could have blown it with a yellow with that deliberate knock.

Let's not forget that Fiji should have been down to 14 too after the Earl break.

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

Did last time.

Under Jones with a good team. Come though if we'd had Scotlands draw. Or irelands or SAs for that matter we'd be home.

doctor_grey wrote:

mountain man wrote:Earl excellent as was Lawes. Farrell not too bad in fairness.

Farrell as man of the match is ridiculous.  Thought he was OK overall, but not more than that.  Could have blown it with a yellow with that deliberate knock.

He was good but lots of better performers, from Mitchel on out. Earl probably made the best case

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

It's all in the mentality. England just know how to win in the knockouts....

bsando wrote:Well done England! They were the better side for the majority of the game despite the pretty unclear officiating at times. They played very well at the breakdown and won most of the little battles. Not bad considering where they've been prior to the tournament.

Huge effort by Fiji who were still able to come close and tighten up their all round game. Losing Caleb Muntz before the tournament (who was a key part player in over England at Twickenham) made feel they might not do as well as they could. They made a QF and nearly a semi! I hope they can continue to be this good and make the knock out stages once more in 2027.

They also lost their 2nd choice FH! Fiji should be very proud. I was disappointed when Cotter left but their new coach seems to be doing a good job with them. They should continue to get better with the Drua in super rugby.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

Did last time.

Under Jones with a good team. Come though if we'd had Scotlands draw. Or irelands or SAs for that matter we'd be home.

But we didn't because we made the final last time and they didn't

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

Did last time.

We're talking about this time, not last time. 2019 was obviously a vastly superior team to today.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

It's all in the mentality. England just know how to win in the knockouts....

Against Fiji, yes. Against New Zealand in 2023, no.

bsando wrote:Huge effort by Fiji who were still able to come close and tighten up their all round game. Losing Caleb Muntz before the tournament (who was a key part player in over England at Twickenham) made feel they might not do as well as they could. They made a QF and nearly a semi! I hope they can continue to be this good and make the knock out stages once more in 2027.

Absolutely. It's a sign of what the Drua in Super Rugby could do for their development. To have qualified having lost arguably their least replaceable player in Muntz was impressive. Today they were down to a back row at lock and a centre at 10 having lost two locks and Tela as well.

Their big stars such as Botia and Nayacalevu have been huge. Many Drua players have as well though.

They've been a good news story from the tournament.

Heaf wrote:Ref was poor all round - no worse for Fiji than England ...

He just started letting too much go late on.

I still don't really know our best starting XV.

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

I take it you missed you the last WC? NZ were a considerably better side in Japan and we dispatched them with ease.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

I take it you missed you the last WC? NZ were a considerably better side in Japan and we dispatched them with ease.

We're considerably worse now.

Closer than I'd have liked...but the much reviled England team are in the semi final. Unlike some other teams who have enjoyed many more favourable comments on this and other places

And yes I know it doesn't mean everything is fine ; and they will be massive underdogs against France or SA. But perhaps they deserve a bit more credit than they've been getting for their efforts ?

Happy for Borthwick, very hard working, dedicated rugby guy.

Morgan75 wrote:Farrell cheating again. He knew exactly what he was doing

I am sorry but being English still isn't a penalty offence

lostinwales wrote:

Heaf wrote:Ref was poor all round - no worse for Fiji than England ...

He just started letting too much go late on.

And all game really, a Raynal special.

Duty281 wrote:
Are you trolling, or do you not understand sport?

I'm going to assume the former, but (just for clarity) the 2023 England team is vastly inferior to the 2019 England team and is highly unlikely to beat New Zealand (or get within 4 points) should the two teams meet in this World Cup.

Food for thought in the build up to the semi.

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
Are you trolling, or do you not understand sport?

I'm going to assume the former, but (just for clarity) the 2023 England team is vastly inferior to the 2019 England team and is highly unlikely to beat New Zealand (or get within 4 points) should the two teams meet in this World Cup.

Food for thought in the build up to the semi.

Well I wouldn't worry about meeting NZ, England have got either France/South Africa next and will get smashed, barring a minor miracle/red card for the opposition.

Agreed, wanted England to win, wasnt expecting some fans to be so classless in victory.

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

It's all in the mentality. England just know how to win in the knockouts....

Against Fiji, yes. Against New Zealand in 2023, no.

We haven't played NZ. If we had have faced them, I'd have fully expected us to turn them over tbh (like in 2019) NZ are not a particularly good side imo.

Sensing some strong resentment towards England on this thread. I though the home nations fans would be happy that at least one of us was good enough to make the last 4.

Don't worry lads, we'll continue the fight for all of us.

C'mon England!!! Swing low.....sweet chariot!!!

Collapse2005 wrote:Agreed, wanted England to win, wasnt expecting some fans to be so classless in victory.

Well yeah, didn’t really nice comments about how much better Ireland are, we’re not blind.

Who the hell cares if this side is inferior to the one four years ago? We're in the semi final when many thought it was beyond this team. The usual suspects acting like children because they called it wrong.

Collapse2005 wrote:Agreed, wanted England to win, wasnt expecting some fans to be so classless in victory.

Unfortunately there are one or two fans who seem to only get pleasure in others misfortunes. We all have them amongst our supporters, it's quite sad to see.

Congratulations England. Big performance needed next week whomever you play

Duty281 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

I take it you missed you the last WC? NZ were a considerably better side in Japan and we dispatched them with ease.

Are you trolling, or do you not understand sport?

I'm going to assume the former, but (just for clarity) the 2023 England team is vastly inferior to the 2019 England team and is highly unlikely to beat New Zealand (or get within 4 points) should the two teams meet in this World Cup.

He is definitely trolling

Yes, I thought he was trying to wind you and other Irish posters up, but that's disappointing behaviour from a moderator.

I'm not trolling anyone, I'm enjoying our win.

Watch the personal attacks lads, stick to the rugby.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I take it you missed you the last WC? NZ were a considerably better side in Japan and we dispatched them with ease.

Disagree with this entirely.

NZ still have Read and SBW in 2019 but the majority of the familiar faces have improved. SBW was a bench option by then and Read well below his peak.

Beauden is a far better 15 than he was then. Genuinely world class now. Mo'unga is a far better international 10. Jordie and Ioane have developed into a much better centre pairing that ALB and Goodhue. Lomax and de Groot coming through means their front row is no weaker, potentially stronger. I'd say their wings are stronger than Reece and Bridge courtesy of Jordan being outstanding.

Of the common faces between their 2019 and 2023 squads I think only Retallick and Whitelock have dipped compared to 2019. The rest are largely better players than 2019. Many of them significantly better.

Since Schmidt and Ryan came in NZ have knitted their very talented group of players into smarter systems. I think some fans are overlooking that and just thinking they're good players, some in odd positions, who occasionally click. That use of playmakers and kickers across the backline to control the game and strike from anywhere is through intelligent systems and tactics though. They're a very good side now. Nowhere near the 2015 vintage. But at least equal, if not better than, the 2019 team.

I'd also add that I thought your initial jab at Ireland that set the bonfire off here was completely unnecessary, nothing to do with this thread and pretty disappointing from a usually good poster who's a mod. Sorry Sarge, but calling offside on that.

Soul Requiem wrote:Who the hell cares if this side is inferior to the one four years ago? We're in the semi final when many thought it was beyond this team. The usual suspects acting like children because they called it wrong.

Think a semi-final was the general expectation considering the draw. If England win next week then that's noteworthy.

All this talk of if this team had been in that group then they'd have lost/won or whatever and it's not fair that team X has been knocked out in the quarters is pointless as it's all just speculation and we'll never really know what would have happened.

Yes the draw is done way too early and throws up some odd groups but that's nothing new and some teams will seem to be disadvantaged whilst other seem advantaged ... but it is what it is ... if you want to go down this route you might as well say England should have been awarded the win in 2019 as they had a much harder route to the final than SA, but that's not how tournament competitions work ...

lostinwales wrote:

Morgan75 wrote:Farrell cheating again. He knew exactly what he was doing

I am sorry but being English still isn't a penalty offence

I’ve lost count of the number of welsh players receive a yellow card for cynical play (surprisingly not that many in this World Cup before I get hordes of replies!!)

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that my Irish friends, is how to win a quarter final

You mean hope to get a favourable draw, so instead of playing the All Blacks you get Fiji? Ireland are still way better than England.

Just not at tournament rugby.

Yes, I'm sure if Ireland had played Fiji in the QF they'd still have lost, and England would have able to down the mighty All Blacks.

It's all in the mentality. England just know how to win in the knockouts....

Against Fiji, yes. Against New Zealand in 2023, no.

We haven't played NZ. If we had have faced them, I'd have fully expected us to turn them over tbh (like in 2019) NZ are not a particularly good side imo.

Sensing some strong resentment towards England on this thread. I though the home nations fans would be happy that at least one of us was good enough to make the last 4.

Don't worry lads, we'll continue the fight for all of us.

C'mon England!!! Swing low.....sweet chariot!!!

Why do people get surprised when we want to see Fiji win? It's nothing against England or Wales or whoever, fans like to see the underdog do well in sports.

Fiji are also extremely likable. Most people want to see them do well.

Not sure who I'd prefer to face in the semis.....I think France would be more fun. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if we beat them tbh.

Morgan75 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Morgan75 wrote:Farrell cheating again. He knew exactly what he was doing

I am sorry but being English still isn't a penalty offence

I’ve lost count of the number of welsh players receive a yellow card for cynical play (surprisingly not that many in this World Cup before I get hordes of replies!!)

Thing with a deliberate knock on is that for a yellow to be issues you're looking for a line break to have been prevented. The pass was dying and I think it was Care coming up so that wasn't the case.

Heaf wrote:All this talk of if this team had been in that group then they'd have lost/won or whatever and it's not fair that team X has been knocked out in the quarters is pointless as it's all just speculation and we'll never really know what would have happened.  

Yes the draw is done way too early and throws up some odd groups but that's nothing new and some teams will seem to be disadvantaged whilst other seem advantaged ... but it is what it is ... if you want to go down this route you might as well say England should have been awarded the win in 2019 as they had a much harder route to the final than SA, but that's not how tournament competitions work ...

I think the general thought is just that we know who the top four teams in world rugby are and it's France/South Africa/Ireland/NZ, but a peculiar draw means that only two of the top four will actually be in the semis, alongside a very disappointing Argentina and a mediocre England. To throw unnecessary scorn at Ireland is pointless because it's obvious they're a better team than Argentina and England (and the same point can be made about whoever loses tonight).

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Morgan75 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Morgan75 wrote:Farrell cheating again. He knew exactly what he was doing

I am sorry but being English still isn't a penalty offence

I’ve lost count of the number of welsh players receive a yellow card for cynical play (surprisingly not that many in this World Cup before I get hordes of replies!!)

Thing with a deliberate knock on is that for a yellow to be issues you're looking for a line break to have been prevented. The pass was dying and I think it was Care coming up so that wasn't the case.

A yellow in your own half is incredibly rare.

'Farrell cheating again' - every player on the field was cheating at some point. Was obviously not a yellow because the pass was going to ground. Probably wouldn't have made any difference even if a yellow had been produced because Fiji were out on their feet.

Duty281 wrote:

Heaf wrote:All this talk of if this team had been in that group then they'd have lost/won or whatever and it's not fair that team X has been knocked out in the quarters is pointless as it's all just speculation and we'll never really know what would have happened.  

Yes the draw is done way too early and throws up some odd groups but that's nothing new and some teams will seem to be disadvantaged whilst other seem advantaged ... but it is what it is ... if you want to go down this route you might as well say England should have been awarded the win in 2019 as they had a much harder route to the final than SA, but that's not how tournament competitions work ...

I think the general thought is just that we know who the top four teams in world rugby are and it's France/South Africa/Ireland/NZ, but a peculiar draw means that only two of the top four will actually be in the semis, alongside a very disappointing Argentina and a mediocre England. To throw unnecessary scorn at Ireland is pointless because it's obvious they're a better team than Argentina and England (and the same point can be made about whoever loses tonight).

That's the risk when doing the draw 3 years out but you can't just assume the top 4 teams will end up in the semis in sport as all sorts of unexpected results happen - eg England (defending World Champs) just lost to Afghanistan in the cricket for the first time ever ... and who would have backed Japan against SA when that first happened?

Of course Ireland are better than Argentina and England, but you can't just say Ireland would never have been beaten by either of them, however unlikely we all think it would have been ... otherwise let's not bother with the first rounds and just have a playoff with what we think are the best 4 teams at the time.

I agree winding up other teams' supporters is poor form though and completely unnecessary ....

So - England to beat Argentina in the final then

Well done England for another semi. You played what was in front of you, I thought earls was the biggest point of difference.

Fiji did what they did best for the latter part of the game, I'm looking forward to seeing where they can go from here!

lostinwales wrote:So - England to beat Argentina in the final then

I think they'd be a meltdown on here if this happened LIW.

The other way to look at all this is if the groups had been composed of what people thought they should then all that's happened is the semi-finals have ended up being played at the quarter-final stage and the winners on the fancied side of the draw just have the inconvenience of having to play a warm-up match against sides they will easily beat before they get to play the final ...

Well that was a good rest match. England and Fiji should be pleased with that. That was a good 1/4 final game and how good were Fiji's tries, absolute quality. It wasn't as England had poor defence but the offloads and skill in contact were brilliant. I didn't realise just how massive Fiji are until the pack weights came up and they are very close to SA. Hell of a shift England put in.

I do feel for Ireland as they would comfortably beat both teams and the match last night should have been a semi or the final. I hope Fiji kick on from this and get the support they deserve.

Let's hope fans of different nationalities don't become classless in victory or defeat.

Lots of such and such "would have" beaten England efc...

No-one knows...England are just quietly becoming hard to beat and working on all aspects of their game.

Semi final anytihng could happen. If they go out then that's a decent start for Borthwick and his team to really address the squad and continue to improve.

Heaf wrote:The other way to look at all this is if the groups had been composed of what people thought they should then all that's happened is the semi-finals have ended up being played at the quarter-final stage and the winners on the fancied side of the draw just have the inconvenience of having to play a warm-up match against sides they will easily beat before they get to play the final ...

Yeah for me its the same losing to NZ in the quarters as the semis. Kind of preferred to play them in the quarters in some ways so no complaints really.

doctor_grey wrote:

mountain man wrote:Earl excellent as was Lawes. Farrell not too bad in fairness.

Farrell as man of the match is ridiculous.  Thought he was OK overall, but not more than that.  Could have blown it with a yellow with that deliberate knock.

There were several very good performances from the men in white today and that includes the Captain. Ford gave up many metres in the warm up match and Farrell was excellent in defence. The late knock on was a tense moment, but clearly instinctive and panicky, which is a tad understandable. He kicked well including an important drop goal. About time he receive a lot more respect from England fans. Whether he served the MOTM award I am not sure, but certainly not a ridiculous decision.