3rd QF England v Fiji - Stade de Marseille

First topic message reminder :

England: 15. Marcus Smith 14. Jonny May  13. Joe Marchant  12. Manu Tuilagi  11. Elliot Daly 10. Owen Farrell (c)9. Alex Mitchell 1. Ellis Genge 2. Jamie George 3. Dan Cole 4. Maro Itoje 5. Ollie Chessum 6. Courtney Lawes 7. Tom Curry 8. Ben Earl

Replacements: 16. Theo Dan  17. Joe Marler  18. Kyle Sinckler 19. George Martin  20. Billy Vunipola  21. Danny Care  22. George Ford  23. Ollie Lawrence  

Fiji: 1. Eroni Mawi 2. Tevita Ikanivere 3. Luke Tagi 4. Isoa Nasilasila 5. Albert Tuisue 6. Lekima Tagitagivalu 7. Levani Botia 8. Viliame Mata 9. Frank Lomani 10. Vilimoni Botitu 11. Semi Radradra 12. Josua Tuisova 13. Waisea Nayacalevu (c) 14. Vinaya Habosi 15. Ilaisa Droasese

Replacements: 16. Samuel Matavesi 17. Peni Ravai 18. Mesake Doge 19. Meli Derenalagi 20. Vilive Miramira 21. Simione Kuruvoli 22. Iosefo Masi 23. Sireli Maqala

Referee: Mathieu Raynal TMO: Ben Whitehouse

Assistant referees: Nic Berry (Australia) and Pierre Broussett (France)

Collapse2005 wrote:

Heaf wrote:The other way to look at all this is if the groups had been composed of what people thought they should then all that's happened is the semi-finals have ended up being played at the quarter-final stage and the winners on the fancied side of the draw just have the inconvenience of having to play a warm-up match against sides they will easily beat before they get to play the final ...

Yeah for me its the same losing to NZ in the quarters as the semis. Kind of preferred to play them in the quarters in some ways so no complaints really.

Yeah, doesn't really matter so much how far a team progresses, to me it's more about what happens when playing one of the big boys. Ireland lost (barely) to one of the biggies, after beating one of the other biggies earlier. England will have their first match against the big boys next weekend, and will be put-up time. If England do well, that is one thing. If spanked, then it's another.

Earl was clear motm for me but anyway. Who cares, only important thing is win

mountain man wrote:Earl was clear motm for me but anyway. Who cares, only important thing is win

I would be fine with that. Thought Lawes was involved with more of the grunt work, Earl certainly had more dynamic runs. Even Itoje could maybe be in the conversation for the first time in a long. maybe very long time.

What are people's thoughts about the England wings? Not in context of player of the match, just your impressions....

May’s best game for a while for me, but in general our wings are no threat at the moment.

Definitely need Arundell in 23. England won't win SF without tries.

You could have Lomu and Campese playing and they won't look dangerous if you don't give them good ball.

I'm already scared of next week watching the last quarter final.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You could have Lomu and Campese playing and they won't look dangerous if you don't give them good ball.

I'm already scared of next week watching the last quarter final.

You are going to have to conquer your fears.  In fact, the only thing you have to fear is fear itself.  

Besides, just 10 days from now, Wednesday, October 25, is Saint Crispin's Day.  Which makes this Saint Crispin's Month.  If we play France, then doom on them, we few we band of brothers....  

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhood cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You could have Lomu and Campese playing and they won't look dangerous if you don't give them good ball.

I'm already scared of next week watching the last quarter final.

You are going to have to conquer your fears.  In fact, the only thing you have to fear is fear itself.  

Besides, just 10 days from now, Wednesday, October 25, is Saint Crispin's Day.  Which makes this Saint Crispin's Month.  If we play France, then doom on them, we few we band of brothers....  

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhood cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

Kenneth Branagh's adaptation of Henry V is on BBC iPlayer and ITV Hub for those in the UK. A true masterpiece of cinema.

England are the only unbeaten side in the semi-finals.

New Zealand were the only unbeaten side at the 2010 football World Cup.

I wonder if Smith will be fit for the semi?

So it's the side with the worst back line in the KOs against the side with the best pack in the competition - anyone's game then

Smith came back on after the knock and finished the match so I'd presume so. Unless he picked up another injury at the very end?

king_carlos wrote:Smith came back on after the knock and finished the match so I'd presume so. Unless he picked up another injury at the very end?

His face was swollen I think. He's very tough for a (relatively) little guy but I would not be surprised if there was damage.

Fair, just a what and see in that case.

https://talksport.com/sport/rugby-union/1602778/england-fans-removed-fighting-stade-velodrome-fiji/amp/

I can't imagine any proper rugby fans acting like that, hopefully whoever they are decide to never come back to another rugby game, would quite like to see this stuff stay out of rugby please.

Never seen anything like that in rugby either

I despair how England get treated by referees. The soft penalties for technical offences that the opposition don't earn is one thing, which screws momemtum for England. Some of the other stuff going on in that game, arms round necks, that stamping and with several England players with bloodied faces and it just gets ignored. Radradra' forward pass for a subsequent try was so obvious, it was farcical.

Fiji are certainly a physical big side, with no little skill and who are benefiting from Super Rugby exposure and if they get further test matches, as they should, will become formidable. Tier 1 sides though will probably close ranks as they need full houses to fund their top down structures which doesn't include Pacific rugby.

For the next twelve months, Borthwick needs to up his behind the scenes PR campaign on refs, like Erasmus did for SA.
England will need a bench of 6 forwards and a scrum half to counter SA next week, for about an hour and then SA will probably pull away.

England weren't hard done by at all.

If anything they got the rub of the breakdown lottery. It was a complete mess. Lawes had IMO the most dubious jackal that won a penalty. Whilst Botia had a jackal that was hands on the floor but far cleaner than several others allowed on the day and he got pinged.

I also felt there was a notable scrum where both LH sides were going forward so it go reset but I honestly felt England popped up first, then it went to ground with both sides advancing. So that could easily have been penalised.

Fiji have certainly not had the rub of the ref over the course of this tournament.

So into the semi-finals.....what kind of odds would you have got on England being the only NH/unbeaten side left in the competition!

Well a perfect weekend. ...Wales, Ireland and France out and awful England through...

Well the best 2 sides are out. And yes as you say England are through. The joys of cup comps. And that nice draw.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well the best 2 sides are out. And yes as you say England are through. The joys of cup comps. And that nice draw.

They weren't the best two sides on the day, though, were they?

England did get a nice draw and have got to a semi-final, which is what they should have been able to achieve given any reasonable level of performance. I actually think the performance against Fiji was pretty good for the first 60 minutes - England certainly had the most control of the game out of any of the quarter finalists, up until the subs started to come on and Fiji exploited the lapses in defence. And while Fiji are a notch behind South Africa and NZ, let's not forget that they beat Australia and should - but for a knock on and the vagaries of international refereeing - have beaten Wales. They're a good side, and probably as good a warm up for the Boks as England could get.

Realistically, England's progress should stop next week. South Africa took the best that France could throw at them and matched it.

What we need to watch for is the performance. If England can make it hard for the Boks, strike a few blows of their own and stay in the game until the dying minutes, that would be a good result given the disarray they were in at the start of the year.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well the best 2 sides are out. And yes as you say England are through. The joys of cup comps. And that nice draw.

They weren't the best two sides on the day, though, were they?

England did get a nice draw and have got to a semi-final, which is what they should have been able to achieve given any reasonable level of performance. I actually think the performance against Fiji was pretty good for the first 60 minutes - England certainly had the most control of the game out of any of the quarter finalists, up until the subs started to come on and Fiji exploited the lapses in defence. And while Fiji are a notch behind South Africa and NZ, let's not forget that they beat Australia and should - but for a knock on and the vagaries of international refereeing - have beaten Wales. They're a good side, and probably as good a warm up for the Boks as England could get.

Realistically, England's progress should stop next week. South Africa took the best that France could throw at them and matched it.

What we need to watch for is the performance. If England can make it hard for the Boks, strike a few blows of their own and stay in the game until the dying minutes, that would be a good result given the disarray they were in at the start of the year.

Well for me the best 2 sides in the world are France and Ireland, fair if you don't.

Realistically next week we just have to hope SA are complacent or well below par. It could happen.

Those QF's may well have taken a lot out of NZ and SA. They should still be too good but you never know.

France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....

Hence being a terrible winner verging on out and out wumming?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....:)

You just need a Welsh grandfather to complete the schedenfreude set...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....

Hence being a terrible winner verging on out and out wumming?

Last warning on this....

Do not make personal attacks on posters whose points you disagree with. Debate the point not the poster.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....

Hence being a terrible winner verging on out and out wumming?

Last warning on this....

Do not make personal attacks on posters whose points you disagree with. Debate the point not the poster.

Excuse me? I've made no personal attack.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Well for me the best 2 sides in the world are France and Ireland, fair if you don't.

Realistically next week we just have to hope SA are complacent or well below par. It could happen.

I believe the World Rugby rankings will say that that order changed last night once they're properly updated (currently they are saying they're up to date but still showing last week's numbers)... Ireland and France have been consistently the best over the last couple of years, and both NZ and the Boks have looked all at sea at times, but there's another way to look at it.

But was the time they spent floundering around actually about finding and fixing weak spots that had been worked out? It's something we've seen them both do on multiple occasions in the run up to the RWC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....

Hence being a terrible winner verging on out and out wumming?

You really don't understand the concept of choking at all do you.

But you be you pooly

carpet baboon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....

Hence being a terrible winner verging on out and out wumming?

You really don't understand the concept of choking at all do you.

But you be you pooly

Maybe I see it differently to you Carpet......

Ireland are the best side in the the world at nullifying the opposition. When I suggest they choked under the pressure , it's mainly because this facet of their game really struggled against NZ, they just never got it going and it was almost like the occasion got to them. NZ scored off first phase ball from the 10 running through the defence, this is almost unheard of when playing against Ireland over the last 3 years or so. Coming into a knockout game as the favourites and the best side in the world.....I honestly think they bottled it. Maybe it's just the term "choking" that seems to be touching a nerve?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....

That's massively unfair. Neither side choked, they lost after immense games which could have gone either way.

So any team that loses chokes?

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Well for me the best 2 sides in the world are France and Ireland, fair if you don't.

Realistically next week we just have to hope SA are complacent or well below par. It could happen.

I believe the World Rugby rankings will say that that order changed last night once they're properly updated (currently they are saying they're up to date but still showing last week's numbers)... Ireland and France have been consistently the best over the last couple of years, and both NZ and the Boks have looked all at sea at times, but there's another way to look at it.

But was the time they spent floundering around actually about finding and fixing weak spots that had been worked out? It's something we've seen them both do on multiple occasions in the run up to the RWC.

I've never been 1 for using the world rankings to judge the order of sides.

mountain man wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France and Ireland were the best 2 sides coming into the WC but things change. Knockout rugby is a different beast, it takes a different mentality. Both Ireland and France have choked when the pressure has come on....they both on paper should have won those games, tough times.

Having an Irish father and a French wife, I'm quite enjoying things at the minute....

That's massively unfair. Neither side choked, they lost after immense games which could have gone either way.

So any team that loses chokes?

Clearly not.

Anyway nice to know England are one of the 4 best teams in the world....and they havent even started their proper rebuild...

World Cup 2027 in the bag....

Geordie wrote:Anyway nice to know England are one of the 4 best teams in the world....and they havent even started their proper rebuild...

World Cup 2027 in the bag....

You rate England as 1 of the top 4 sides in the world? With who?

Argentina, SA and NZ...of course.

Geordie wrote:Argentina, SA and NZ...of course.

Oh wow. Can't agree with that at all. You not see many internationals?

Hey...its the world cup....and it doesnt lie...4 best teams in the world in there...

I bet the picture of Mr Borthwick you have on your dart board is taking some hammering at the moment...