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Scotland vs England | The Calcutta Cup

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Post by bsando Tue 20 Feb 2024, 10:03 am

Scotland vs England

Saturday 24th February 2024
Venue: Murrayfield 
Kick-off: 4:45pm
Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TV Coverage: Live on BBC (UK) and Virgin Media (ROI)


Teams


Scotland 

Kinghorn, Steyn, Jones, Tuipulotu, Van der Merwe, Russell (co-capt), White; Schoeman, Turner, Fagerson, Gilchrist, Cummings, Ritchie, Darge (co-capt), Dempsey.
Replacements: Ashman, Hepburn, Skinner, Christie, Horne, Healy, Redpath.


England 

Furbank; Freeman, Slade, Lawrence, Daly; Ford, Care; Genge, George (capt), Cole, Itoje, Chessum, Roots, Underhill, Earl.
Replacements: Dan, Marler, Stuart, Martin, Cunningham-South, Spencer, F Smith, Feyi-Waboso.


Last edited by bsando on Thu 22 Feb 2024, 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by NeilyBroon Tue 20 Feb 2024, 3:33 pm

Any news tramp? I'd imagine it's same as last week except Christie on for Fagerson.

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Post by NeilyBroon Tue 20 Feb 2024, 3:33 pm

Oh and kinghorn for Paterson, Healy drops out I reckon.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Tue 20 Feb 2024, 5:58 pm

Thank you Bsando for setting up

Eagerly awaiting Tramp's team announcement tomorrow afternoon

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Post by RDW Tue 20 Feb 2024, 8:28 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:Any news tramp? I'd imagine it's same as last week except Christie on for Fagerson.

He still needs to select it!

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Post by NeilyBroon Tue 20 Feb 2024, 8:51 pm

RDW wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:Any news tramp? I'd imagine it's same as last week except Christie on for Fagerson.

He still needs to select it!

Just trying to get the trampbola spinning!

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Post by Tramptastic Wed 21 Feb 2024, 6:59 am

Now, im fully expecting to get the team ahead of time as per usual, however, i have been exiled to deepest darkest thurso so Toonie might get in ahead of me for once!

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Post by Geordie Wed 21 Feb 2024, 8:56 am

England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

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Post by RDW Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:00 am

Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

It's remarkable to think Scotland are on for 4 in a row against England. When I was at Twickenham watching Scotland's get spanked by over 60 points never in my wildest dreams would I think we'd be in this position.

Which makes me fully confident we're gonna lose this!

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:00 am

Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:09 am

Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

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Post by Geordie Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:13 am

Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Cant see it being exhilarating but it should be physical and passionate. Critical part for me is the defense out wide. If we give Scotlands wingers space we're in trouble. Depends how they handle the blitz from the midfield...and which Midfield Englands putting out.

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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:18 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

Could be or it could be box kick then route 1 via Manu. Interspersed with Ford kicking away possession should England get to Scotland 22.

I always thought it was the Scots role to be pessimistic but I think we can safely wear that crown now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:19 am

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

Could be or it could be box kick then route 1 via Manu. Interspersed with Ford kicking away possession should England get to Scotland 22.

I always thought it was the Scots role to be pessimistic but I think we can safely wear that crown now.

I was at least hoping for a monsoon like a few years back but it's forecast drizzle. Damn you weather gods.

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Post by Geordie Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:40 am

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

Could be or it could be box kick then route 1 via Manu. Interspersed with Ford kicking away possession should England get to Scotland 22.

I always thought it was the Scots role to be pessimistic but I think we can safely wear that crown now.

I dont think Manu will start...its Slade and Lawrence imo....

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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:52 am

Yes I'd think Lawrence and I'd rather him anyway. These days he offers more than Manu. If that case I'm not sure I'd have Manu on bench, if he gets on then injures himself 5 mins later that'll cause a problem. OK can happen to any player but given his history and his style of play the odds of Manu getting injured way greater.
However, I suspect both be in 23 somewhere.

Plus I really think England need to move on from Manu, great player though he's been.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:55 am

Feyi-Waboso to be dropped after 1 cap as Gatland 'feared'?

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Post by jimbopip Wed 21 Feb 2024, 9:55 am

England to grind out an ugly win.

The four forwards drafted into the squad, Nel, Craig, Bradbury and Watson are either there because there are injury concerns or because Toonie wants to practice having big lumps trundle towards them.  I also hear the SRU have broken into the piggy bank and appointed a chiropractor (on a very, very short term contract) to deal with all the cricked necks the backs have developed watching box kicks drop from the Edinburgh smog in preparation for Borthwick's  cunning new gameplan.

Assuming no injuries, the team pretty much picks itself;

Schooey-Turner-Ragnar
GG-Cummings
Fagerson-Dempsey-Darge
White
Dancer
Huipulotu
DVDM-Blarehorn-Rowe

Bench; Hepburn-Ashman-Mick The Miller, Principal, Christie,Crosbie, Hornito, Lord Stafford Of McDowall

Interestingly, it's the bench where most arguments may arise. Hepburn or Bhatti, Nel or M T M? No Mbawza? No Henry Healey?
Personally, I'm not overly bothered which props are on the bench. As Angelo Dundee said of heavyweight boxers, "As long as they're on their feet and sober they'll do fine." Mbawza is so far out of form even Liz Truss wouldn't pick him. Blarehorn can cover 10 and then you'd want a centre/15 on the bench. Young Banjo looked nippy against the French but he couldn't  fill in at 12 with Manu lumbering towards him. Stafford has played alongside Wee Shona often this season and Shug has dropped back to 15. So maybe Stafford to bench, cometh the hour cometh the man.

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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:04 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Feyi-Waboso to be dropped after 1 cap as Gatland 'feared'?

Could be. He should have been on last match. Writing be on wall maybe if not on bench. The little time he was on field in Italy match he did all he could. Looked for work, made his tackles etc and he has pace and x-factor no-one else has in squad so unfortunately that counts against him....

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Post by bsando Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:05 am

Tramptastic wrote:Now, im fully expecting to get the team ahead of time as per usual, however, i have been exiled to deepest darkest thurso so Toonie might get in ahead of me for once!
What you up to there Tramp? All my family are from Caithness. Thurso rugby club have the old Murrayfield posts, worth a look if you’re driving past.

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Post by Tramptastic Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:25 am

bsando wrote:
Tramptastic wrote:Now, im fully expecting to get the team ahead of time as per usual, however, i have been exiled to deepest darkest thurso so Toonie might get in ahead of me for once!
What you up to there Tramp? All my family are from Caithness. Thurso rugby club have the old Murrayfield posts, worth a look if you’re driving past.

Ground investigation for battery storage systems

Its mad the amount of development thats going on in the area like. Will pop by the rugby club to look!

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Post by Geordie Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:32 am

mountain man wrote:Yes I'd think Lawrence and I'd rather him anyway. These days he offers more than Manu. If that case I'm not sure I'd have Manu on bench, if he gets on then injures himself 5 mins later that'll cause a problem. OK can happen to any player but given his history and his style of play the odds of Manu getting injured way greater.
However, I suspect both be in 23 somewhere.

Plus I really think England need to move on from Manu, great player though he's been.

Manu doesnt cover loads of positions either so its start or not in the squad in my opinion.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:35 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

Scotland kicked more from hand in the last round of the 6N than England 44 to 32 and in the first round 38 to 31.

England won't play in their own half but have been playing a lot more in the opposition half than previously. The new attacking system hasn't bedded in that well so far but it's shown flashes. If England can find that cohesion then it should be an entertaining game.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:37 am

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Feyi-Waboso to be dropped after 1 cap as Gatland 'feared'?

Could be. He should have been on last match. Writing be on wall maybe if not on bench. The little time he was on field in Italy match he did all he could. Looked for work, made his tackles etc and he has pace and x-factor no-one else has in squad so unfortunately that counts against him....

He touched the ball once Vs Italy and did fine. The back three was working well Vs Wales so I don't think Borthwick wanted to change things as we were managing the game better than Wales. Had we been chasing the game I think IFW would have come on.

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Post by jimbopip Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:43 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

Scotland kicked more from hand in the last round of the 6N than England 44 to 32 and in the first round 38 to 31.

England won't play in their own half but have been playing a lot more in the opposition half than previously. The new attacking system hasn't bedded in that well so far but it's shown flashes. If England can find that cohesion then it should be an entertaining game.

Yes and IF Rishi Sunak can find some coherent policies in could be an entertaining election.
IF Karen Gillan can find my house it could be an entertaining night in.
IF ...well you know.
The England-Wales game raised tedium to new levels. It was the equivalent of listening to John Cale's 3minutes 42 seconds of silence without connecting your headphones.

But still England will win.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:52 am

jimbopip wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

Scotland kicked more from hand in the last round of the 6N than England 44 to 32 and in the first round 38 to 31.

England won't play in their own half but have been playing a lot more in the opposition half than previously. The new attacking system hasn't bedded in that well so far but it's shown flashes. If England can find that cohesion then it should be an entertaining game.

Yes and IF Rishi Sunak can find some coherent policies in could be an entertaining election.
IF Karen Gillan can find my house it could be an entertaining night in.
IF ...well you know.
The England-Wales game raised tedium to new levels. It was the equivalent of listening to John Cale's 3minutes 42 seconds of silence without connecting your headphones.

But still England will win.

Yes the England Vs Wales game was only interesting in how England found new ways not to put Wales to the sword.

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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 10:56 am

I thought Scotland France was new level of tedium. Didn't you see the kick tennis combined with statues being played out?
That was diabolical.

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Post by Geordie Wed 21 Feb 2024, 11:03 am

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Feyi-Waboso to be dropped after 1 cap as Gatland 'feared'?

Could be. He should have been on last match. Writing be on wall maybe if not on bench. The little time he was on field in Italy match he did all he could. Looked for work, made his tackles etc and he has pace and x-factor no-one else has in squad so unfortunately that counts against him....

Ah i think he'll get plenty of time. SB just has to be sure, then over sure that players are ready ...a little too cautious at times.

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Post by Geordie Wed 21 Feb 2024, 11:07 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
jimbopip wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

Scotland kicked more from hand in the last round of the 6N than England 44 to 32 and in the first round 38 to 31.

England won't play in their own half but have been playing a lot more in the opposition half than previously. The new attacking system hasn't bedded in that well so far but it's shown flashes. If England can find that cohesion then it should be an entertaining game.

Yes and IF Rishi Sunak can find some coherent policies in could be an entertaining election.
IF Karen Gillan can find my house it could be an entertaining night in.
IF ...well you know.
The England-Wales game raised tedium to new levels. It was the equivalent of listening to John Cale's 3minutes 42 seconds of silence without connecting your headphones.

But still England will win.

Yes the England Vs Wales game was only interesting in how England found new ways not to put Wales to the sword.

Id like to see England find that level of physicality they showed v SA in the Semi final. They put a marker down that they can play at that level. Just that the subs couldnt quite match it. I think thats what SB wants ultimatley...

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Post by hugehandoff Wed 21 Feb 2024, 11:16 am

Scotland with their settled team, coaching staff, style of play and with Finn pulling the strings along with home advantage (mind you home advantage has not helped England much at fortress Twickenham) all points to a comfortable Scotland victory. Scotland could even click and run out comfortable winners. A fantastic first half followed by England making it look more respectable in the 2nd half. Big smiles for Finn and DVM.

England have almost zero ability to score tries and their only chance is a boring RWC style kick fest. I would keep Dan on the bench as that will at least save LCD from another yellow!

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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 11:29 am

That is issue. Scotland players all over backline who can create and score tries, England look far more like a team who will try and dog out a close win through territory and kicks.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 21 Feb 2024, 11:37 am

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
jimbopip wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:England Underdogs, Scotland Full favorites for an easy victory.

Wonder what Borthers has planned....

Boredom?

Route one through Tuilagi and then box kick was my guess.

Scotland kicked more from hand in the last round of the 6N than England 44 to 32 and in the first round 38 to 31.

England won't play in their own half but have been playing a lot more in the opposition half than previously. The new attacking system hasn't bedded in that well so far but it's shown flashes. If England can find that cohesion then it should be an entertaining game.

Yes and IF Rishi Sunak can find some coherent policies in could be an entertaining election.
IF Karen Gillan can find my house it could be an entertaining night in.
IF ...well you know.
The England-Wales game raised tedium to new levels. It was the equivalent of listening to John Cale's 3minutes 42 seconds of silence without connecting your headphones.

But still England will win.

Yes the England Vs Wales game was only interesting in how England found new ways not to put Wales to the sword.

Id like to see England find that level of physicality they showed v SA in the Semi final. They put a marker down that they can play at that level. Just that the subs couldnt quite match it. I think thats what SB wants ultimatley...

Up to the point of the Chessum yellow card England did that rather emphatically against Wales who couldn't get out of their own half. The yellow cards and an interesting penalty try call from sir interrupted the England momentum which we then struggled to get back.

I think you are right Borthwick will want to build on that. Go after opposition teams up front and then pressure their backs in defence. The attack clicking is key though because if we don't start building scores then the amount of pressure doesn't build in the same way and teams will have some belief. Being on the wrong end of the physical battle and the scoreboard really does for morale.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Feb 2024, 12:33 pm

And we're coming into the run of games now where we realistically aren't favourites.

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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 12:39 pm

Which is fine as not expected to win. If England win any of next 3 matches that would exceed expectation.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Feb 2024, 12:48 pm

It would for me. But personally think it's a run which the media will ramp up pressure on. Didn't you say that Scotland was a must win for us mountain?

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Post by bsando Wed 21 Feb 2024, 12:58 pm

I think last years match vs England was a really good example of what Scotland can do if they’re in a positive frame of mind. Likewise in the first half against wales and first quarter vs France this year.

However, Scotland are vulnerable when they’re unable to find a way to get  back on the front foot. Scotland have a good defence but when they’re pinned back and decisions are not going their way it’s scary how quickly the wheels can come off. That’s always been a problem as long as I’ve watched Scotland play. If England find they have scrum dominance that could be incredibly damaging for Scotland. Ultimately Scotland need to be avoiding a scenario where they’re being pinned back in their own half. One saving grace is having kinghorn back. He and VdM can attack attack deep when necessary but hopefully it won’t come to that and Scotland can build a score rather than chase one.


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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 12:58 pm

No don't think I did. Think that was "SALLY". And chum.

It's really important to win to show progress but no game is must win. Well maybe in knock out rugby it is but anyway, point is England have lost several times in a row to Scotland, it's high time that run was halted. Think that was gist of what I've said in past.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 21 Feb 2024, 1:11 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Feyi-Waboso to be dropped after 1 cap as Gatland 'feared'?

Could be. He should have been on last match. Writing be on wall maybe if not on bench. The little time he was on field in Italy match he did all he could. Looked for work, made his tackles etc and he has pace and x-factor no-one else has in squad so unfortunately that counts against him....

He touched the ball once Vs Italy and did fine. The back three was working well Vs Wales so I don't think Borthwick wanted to change things as we were managing the game better than Wales. Had we been chasing the game I think IFW would have come on.

More likely had we got a few points ahead. Given how close the game was I can understand not wanting to upset the starting group, however unfortunate it was for IFW.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Feb 2024, 1:29 pm

mountain man wrote:No don't think I did. Think that was "SALLY". And chum.

It's really important to win to show progress but no game is must win. Well maybe in knock out rugby it is but anyway, point is England have lost several times in a row to Scotland, it's high time that run was halted. Think that was gist of what I've said in past.

Lol. Who is the same.person as v vales have you noticed!

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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 1:39 pm

SALLY is definitely Finkelstein, that much I'd guessed before he messed up and started replying to self etc. Whether it's vvales as well is a possibility as vvales has had/have multiple usernames.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 21 Feb 2024, 2:20 pm

mountain man wrote:Which is fine as not expected to win. If England win any of next 3 matches that would exceed expectation.

Yes and no. Scotland are a more cohesive team than we are and at home they are clear favourites but at the same time if England's ambitions are that they will be back in the top 5 sides in the world then this is the type of game they need to start getting a result from.

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Post by mountain man Wed 21 Feb 2024, 2:32 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mountain man wrote:Which is fine as not expected to win. If England win any of next 3 matches that would exceed expectation.

Yes and no. Scotland are a more cohesive team than we are and at home they are clear favourites but at the same time if England's ambitions are that they will be back in the top 5 sides in the world then this is the type of game they need to start getting a result from.

Yep as I said above ;

"point is England have lost several times in a row to Scotland, it's high time that run was halted."

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Post by BigGee Wed 21 Feb 2024, 5:58 pm

Kyle Steyn doing media for the Scotland team today.

Usually strongly suggestive of him being in the team for Saturday.

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Post by bsando Wed 21 Feb 2024, 7:12 pm

Didn't realise he was having a kid and that was why he was absent vs France. It would be good to have him back, he's a great player. Shame for Rowe though, hasn't done much wrong.

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Post by Geordie Wed 21 Feb 2024, 8:15 pm

So Scotland preparing to cope with the blitz from England's midfield then smash gaps on the wing with power.

Should work.

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Post by Highland Shaun Wed 21 Feb 2024, 11:07 pm

Tramptastic wrote:Now, im fully expecting to get the team ahead of time as per usual, however, i have been exiled to deepest darkest thurso so Toonie might get in ahead of me for once!

That's my hometown Very Happy, are you staying at the Premier Inn because that's down the road from me :P oh and also I didn't know you have family up here Bsando, I take it they are Rugby fans too Very Happy? I'm sure I can help you out with recommendations for where to have a few beverages too Tramp :P Wink.

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Post by mountain man Thu 22 Feb 2024, 8:20 am

Geordie wrote:So Scotland preparing to cope with the blitz from England's midfield then smash gaps on the wing with power.

Should work.

Given how Scotland play, they will surely look to get ball out wide to wings and get around blitz defence. Especially if England defence narrow as it has been in first two games. Russell is also very good at identifying where to attack so it'll be interesting and possibly painful to see how England cope.

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Post by Tramptastic Thu 22 Feb 2024, 8:21 am

Thank you Shaun, not at the premier inn this time and heading doon the road today but thank you for the offer!

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Post by mountain man Thu 22 Feb 2024, 9:40 am

Just listening to BBC Rugby Union daily, the England camp one with Danny Care who is a regular on there and without actually saying it seems very likely he's starting 9. It's what I expect anyway, he starts Spencer bench.

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 22 Feb 2024, 10:44 am

mountain man wrote:Just listening to BBC Rugby Union daily, the England camp one with Danny Care who is a regular on there and without actually saying it seems very likely he's starting 9. It's what I expect anyway, he starts Spencer bench.

This is not a surprise. He trusts Danny, and Youngs has retired, he's the only available 9 with significant experience.

I expect to see Lawrence/Slade with Daly and Freeman on the wings again. Back row likely to be (in my opinion on what Borthwick will do) Martin, Underhill and Earl. I would prefer Martin, Earl, CCS but I am certain that's too much change for Borthwick.

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