England vs India 1st test debate

by Guest Sun 24 Jul 2011, 7:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

Liam_Main wrote: England side:

1) Andrew Strauss (C)
2) Alistair Cook
3) Jonathan Trott
4) Kevin Pietersen
5) Ian Bell
6) Eoin Morgan
7) Matt Prior (WK)
8) Stuart Broad
9) Graeme Swann
10) Chris Tremlett
11) James Anderson

India side.

1) Abhinav Makund
2) Gautam Gambhir
3) Rahul Dravid (WK)
4) Sachin Tendulkar
5) VVS Laxman
6) Suresh Raina
7) MS Dhoni (C)
8) Harbhajan Singh
9) Zaheer Khan
10) Praveen Kumar
11) Ishant Sharma

Should be a terrific match and series!

My Prediction: England to win

Series Prediction: 1-1

C'mon England!

by Carrotdude Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:01 pm

PS - I'm backing Strauss to be the next one to come back. I think he'll get a big score at Trent Bridge.

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:02 pm

lol we can only hope

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:16 pm

the indians need to learn how to play the swinging ball

by longhopmerchant Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:44 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:the indians need to learn how to play the swinging ball

I wouldn't go that far. They played wonderfully well in South Africa at the turn of the year. May I also pick out that England where 62-5 in their 2nd dig and India couldn't roll them due to Kumar and Sharma being exhausted for bowling Zaheer's overs as well.

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:48 pm

yh but that was just a superb spell from sharma, apart from that the attack looked toothless..

the indians never looked at ease

by robbo277 Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:51 pm

If we can't beat India without Sehwag and Zaheer Khan, we don't deserve to be number 1. Chances are neither will be fit for Trent Bridge, and we have to capitalise. This England side is ruthless and I can see us going 2-0 up if the ball swings. That partnership between Prior and Broad at 62-5 was match-winning in my opinion. Had we set a lower score we wouldn't have been able to exert the same pressure and India might have got over the line.

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:53 pm

i dont think morgan is test standard to be honest

by longhopmerchant Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:55 pm

cricketfan90 wrote: apart from that the attack looked toothless..

Not being rude, but you must be one hell of a player if you're criticizing Sharma and Kumar. Neither had played in England before the 1st Test, and Kumar more then held his own in the England's 1st dig. Harbhajan was dreadful and looks a shadow of the guy who once hammered the Aussies.

by longhopmerchant Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:57 pm

robbo277 wrote:That partnership between Prior and Broad at 62-5 was match-winning in my opinion.

I'm going to say England had good fortune, with India losing a bowler, but England punished India - just like the mighty Australian side used to do.

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 7:57 pm

sharma had one good spell, and yh kumar bowled well in the first innings when the ball WAS swinging... second inings when it werent he didnt look great...

they say jimmy is poor with the ball when it dont swing, but look at today!

by longhopmerchant Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:03 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:sharma had one good spell, and yh kumar bowled well in the first innings when the ball WAS swinging... second inings when it werent he didnt look great...

they say jimmy is poor with the ball when it dont swing, but look at today!

Kumar was over bowled dude, cricketer do get tired they're not machines. He bowled 60 odd overs.

It was swinging today, otherwise Tendulkar would've middled his and Raina wouldn't have nicked his!!!

by Raymond Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:04 pm

robbo277 wrote:If we can't beat India without Sehwag and Zaheer Khan, we don't deserve to be number 1. Chances are neither will be fit for Trent Bridge, and we have to capitalise. This England side is ruthless and I can see us going 2-0 up if the ball swings. That partnership between Prior and Broad at 62-5 was match-winning in my opinion. Had we set a lower score we wouldn't have been able to exert the same pressure and India might have got over the line.

That's why you need a squad, people get injured that inevitable, This is where England are so strong if one of our players gets injured then we have people who can come in and cover for them.

by robbo277 Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:06 pm

longhopmerchant wrote:
robbo277 wrote:That partnership between Prior and Broad at 62-5 was match-winning in my opinion.
I'm going to say England had good fortune, with India losing a bowler, but England punished India - just like the mighty Australian side used to do.

Oh yeah, it was made slightly easier for England in that Kumar and Ishant had got through a lot of work and would have been tired around day 4, but Prior (with Morgan) managed to steady the ship when India (and Sharma in particular) would have had their tails up, and both Prior and Broad ended up with big not outs (at strike-rates of over 80) and Prior ending up with a ton. 62-5, 107-6 and finally 269-6 declared. Had we been rolled for 120 in the second innings, India could have chased 300, especially as Gambhir picked up his injury during that Prior/Broad partnership.

by hokeye_on sticky wicket Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:07 pm

Well done England.A well deserved win clap

Think the way India prepared for this test, they definetly deserve to lose.

All the key test players had plenty of rest before the test.May be too much rest !

I personally blame the Indian selectors for picking Zahir Khan and Gambhir who were not 100% fit.

But what a gem of a test. thumbsup

by robbo277 Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:08 pm

Raymond wrote:
robbo277 wrote:If we can't beat India without Sehwag and Zaheer Khan, we don't deserve to be number 1. Chances are neither will be fit for Trent Bridge, and we have to capitalise. This England side is ruthless and I can see us going 2-0 up if the ball swings. That partnership between Prior and Broad at 62-5 was match-winning in my opinion. Had we set a lower score we wouldn't have been able to exert the same pressure and India might have got over the line.

That's why you need a squad, people get injured that inevitable, This is where England are so strong if one of our players gets injured then we have people who can come in and cover for them.

I think we have some depth in the seam options (Finn, Bresnan and possibly Onions and Dernbach itching for a go), and Monty is a decent option as second choice spinner, but we don't have any proven reserve batsmen or keepers.

by longhopmerchant Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:08 pm

robbo277 wrote:
longhopmerchant wrote:
robbo277 wrote:That partnership between Prior and Broad at 62-5 was match-winning in my opinion.
I'm going to say England had good fortune, with India losing a bowler, but England punished India - just like the mighty Australian side used to do.

Oh yeah, it was made slightly easier for England in that Kumar and Ishant had got through a lot of work and would have been tired around day 4, but Prior (with Morgan) managed to steady the ship when India (and Sharma in particular) would have had their tails up, and both Prior and Broad ended up with big not outs (at strike-rates of over 80) and Prior ending up with a ton. 62-5, 107-6 and finally 269-6 declared. Had we been rolled for 120 in the second innings, India could have chased 300, especially as Gambhir picked up his injury during that Prior/Broad partnership.

I'm pretty sure Dhoni would've preferred anyone but Harbhajan when England where 62-5!!

by Raymond Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:17 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Raymond wrote:
robbo277 wrote:If we can't beat India without Sehwag and Zaheer Khan, we don't deserve to be number 1. Chances are neither will be fit for Trent Bridge, and we have to capitalise. This England side is ruthless and I can see us going 2-0 up if the ball swings. That partnership between Prior and Broad at 62-5 was match-winning in my opinion. Had we set a lower score we wouldn't have been able to exert the same pressure and India might have got over the line.

That's why you need a squad, people get injured that inevitable, This is where England are so strong if one of our players gets injured then we have people who can come in and cover for them.

I think we have some depth in the seam options (Finn, Bresnan and possibly Onions and Dernbach itching for a go), and Monty is a decent option as second choice spinner, but we don't have any proven reserve batsmen or keepers.

We have plenty of talent e.g. James Taylor, Ravi Bopara (if he sorts his head out), Alex Hales, Jimmy Adams. Keeper is a bit of a problem though, Matt Prior is the best keeper batsman in the world.

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:27 pm

we managed to break the 'much vaunted' batting line up of india Very Happy

by Cowshot Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:29 pm

I agree the Indians are undercooked. I don't quite know what's going on, but injuries, illness and lack of preparation affected pretty much the whole team. Tendulkar, for example, looked a pale shadow - that's what a virus can do.

Dravid I thought was magnificent, and Kumar showed himself as a bowler of character. Whether he has the skills to manage when the ball isn't swinging I don't know. I suspect he might. Sharma showed signs of being undercooked, but we certainly saw what he can do in the second innings.

But ours not to reason why the Indians are undercooked. This England side took the advantage handed to them and rammed it home, lost toss and swinging ball and all. And I think we dropped more catches in that game than we did in the entire Australian series. I'm assuming at the moment that it was just one of those freak games where nothing sticks. But I'll be seriously worried if we're dropping sitters at Trent Bridge.

KP was a fair MOTM for me. Without his 202 in difficult conditions and without looking remotely in form for the first 150, nothing that followed could have happened. It was a huge innings and set England on a winning course that Strauss and the team steered magnificently.

Strauss isn't (still) quite the complete captain. But you can't argue with victory and whatever he's got, it works. Flower, too deserves the greatest credit.

Basically, the Indians didn't quite seem to be taking things seriously enough. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the consequence is they have effectively walked into an ambush from a fired up England and given away a soft 1-0 lead.

And they've got until Friday to sort it out.

by Stellar Key Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:30 pm

A few thoughts on the first test and beyond............

The lords pitch was once again v. flat and needed overhead conditions to help the bowlers. 5th day wickets ought to provide more assistance to the spinners.

Of the England players beginning with Strauss who played injudicious shots in both innings and was under no extreme pressure at the time.

His fielding was very disappointing and he was fortunate his misses only cost the side one big innings by the opposition.

He handled his bowlers well but his field placings at times seem behind the game compared to previous captains.

Cooks form appears to have tailed off a bit in this match.

Broads performance was a total surprise. Whether it was the coaches at Notts or with the engand set up they deserve credit for making him bowl an effective length and also having some strategies to hold together his spells and earn a few quality wickets.

He kept his composure in the face of some rank umpiring too.

Morgan had a quiet game , I hope he finds some purpose at TB and earns his place with his batting.

The bowlers were mostly good excepting Jimmy in the first innings. They are one of the best units in world cricket. So I hope they show more self belief in future and start to look and act like the world beaters they are close to becoming.

The fielding was poor at times, too many shelled chances, overthrows and lazy backing up. They need to work at the concentration !

Bit of a praise for an Indian batsman. Dravid showed that if the opposition give you a chance then you make them pay and he did with a determined 100.

TB is 4 days away ! Shocked

England are full of confidence now and hopefully with similar weather for the match they can show us the same great performance as today.

by Cowshot Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:37 pm

...er, snap?

I think you are hard on Strauss in the first innings. Conditions were at their most difficult and that 22 was worth much more than that at the time. I'm not saying it was a great innings, but it certainly wasn't as rank as implied. The shot in the second innings I thought injudicious, but wonder if he was not trying to force things along a bit because the team needed that. He wasn't to know we'd have a collapse, and you can't bat with that in your mind, as England proved for years.

by Stellar Key Mon 25 Jul 2011, 9:10 pm

I'm not saying it was rank but both shots a hook played on length not line and a sweep missing a straight ball were ill judged. Him and Trott looked solid at the time so why rock the boat. What came after had nothing to do with him opening up an end but down to Sharmas stunning spell that will have our middle order thinking in future.

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 9:55 pm

well we managed to keep sachin quiet that helped us win Smile

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 25 Jul 2011, 10:07 pm

trebellbobaggins wrote:
reducedwaistline wrote:Botham rates England as the best Test side in the World? What is this based on? England lost to the Windies in the Carribbean in 2009, lost in Sri Lanka in 2008 and haven't won in India or Pakistan in light years.

kind of detracts from some brilliant performances in Aussie and SA to be fair.

Not really. They havent played in Pakistan in years for securty reasons, but the gulf between the sides is huge. The team that played in India was completly different to the one they have now, although to be fasr they would struggle as much as India are struggling here. The West Indies tour was ridiculous, years ago, and with a side very differnet to the one they have now. Although they lost that they were dominant for the majority of it, just fell apsrt in one innings and failed to finish of the Windies on some of the flatest wickets in history.

The claim they are the best test side in the world right now is based on the idea that they have played better test cricdket than anyone else for over a year now, and havent lost aseries for 2 and half years. . in which time they have beaten West Indies Sri Lanka Bangladesh Pakistan and The West Indies at home, Australia and Bangladesh away plus drew against South Africa.
Its a bit misleading to tak about things they havent done because they havent had a chance since the current side was assembled...although I do think theyd struggle to beat India away.

It ddnt stop the Indians claiming number one spot and rubbishing Australia despite them never having won a series there. It would be equally facile to question when India last won a series in Pakistan.

England arent the number one ranked team though, and despite crucshing India in this game it is premature to suggest that they will continue to outshine them. But really anyone making a fair and honest assesment of that test would have to say England looked much the better side with or without injuries. They lost the toss and had the wrong end of umpire mistakes, still won by a big margin with a lot of time left despite rain shortening the game and short over rates from India. No question Zaheers injurty helped the cause, but thats what you get for packing your side with batsmen as they nearly found out themselves in Australia when they had an injury mid test ...except they still won that game easily.
No need for jelly beans, just comepletly out batted, out bowled, and outfielded India. No amount of bias, bile, hatred, jealousy and deliberate misrepresentation of fact will change that.

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 10:09 pm

india are massively undercooked for this series

by hodge Tue 26 Jul 2011, 2:26 am

1st test match summery:

England ------------> randy

<--------------- India

by Guest Tue 26 Jul 2011, 10:23 am

dhoni will get penalised for over rates...

he had two warnings and was on a last chance and the over rate was 13

he should get 1 game ban, and that would be huge blow for india

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 26 Jul 2011, 10:33 am

Nothings even been mentioned about that yet beyond commentator speculation. Doesnt sem the match referee has a problem despite the obvious slowing tactics.

by Guest Tue 26 Jul 2011, 10:34 am

yh but you would think he would surely act when the over rate is 13

by longhopmerchant Tue 26 Jul 2011, 5:51 pm

A friend of mine who is Indian, just showed me a newspaper regarding India's team selection for the 2nd Test. I was amazed to read that Yuvraj Singh will be employed as the spinner and bat at 7!!!

Further rumours also state that Munaf Patel will most likely replace Zaheer, as India are concerned that Sreesanth is a bit of a loose cannon!!

Some rumours also state that Mukund should be dropped!!

Who wants to be an Indian selector lol!!!

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 26 Jul 2011, 5:53 pm

longhopmerchant wrote:A fan of mine who is Indian

You have fans!!!!
Didn't think you're posts were THAT brilliant Very Happy

by longhopmerchant Tue 26 Jul 2011, 5:55 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
longhopmerchant wrote:A fan of mine who is Indian

You have fans!!!!
Didn't think you're posts were THAT brilliant

Damn there goes my chance of becoming the new Perez Hilton!!!

by Guest Tue 26 Jul 2011, 8:17 pm

is wriidamhn saha any good?

by longhopmerchant Tue 26 Jul 2011, 8:32 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:is wriidamhn saha any good?

According to my friend, he's the best keeper in India, but his batting isn't International standard. My friend says he would be a good number 8/9 if Irfan Pathan was in the side, as Pathan is a genuine all rounder and his batting makes up for the lack of Saha's batting.

by Guest Tue 26 Jul 2011, 10:28 pm

if india lose the series they cant be called true world no1, cos they havent won everywhere while being no1...

no one can be classed as true no1 till they have won everhwhere as no1

by dyrewolfe Thu 28 Jul 2011, 2:44 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:if india lose the series they cant be called true world no1, cos they havent won everywhere while being no1...

no one can be classed as true no1 till they have won everhwhere as no1

Very rare you'd have that happen while keeping the same team together. Thats why there's a ranking system. In the time it would take for any country to arrange and play every other country, the team would have changed significantly, whether because of retirements, injuries / illness, loss of form or whatever.

Besides, Test rankings are only indicators of form. It just so happens India have had the best form of all the Test playing nations for some time now. That said, due to the reasons mentioned above, it appears they're in a bit of a dip right now and the gap has closed to the point where England can take the No.1 spot if we win this series by 2 matches.

Thats going to be a tough ask, as India will want revenge for the heavy defeat at Lords. I think a series win for England by any margin will be a great effort. To win by 2 clear matches would be simply amazing, but probably a (Trent) Bridge too far...

Tumbleweed

...I'll get me coat...

by dyrewolfe Thu 28 Jul 2011, 2:51 pm

Just one further point: the Lords Test would have been a lot closer had India had a full bowling attack and their 1st choice batting lineup.

While England overall put in a great performance, with individuals stepping up when it mattered, the same old flaws reared their heads from time to time, in terms of our batting and fielding. A better team would have punished us for that.

Although KP, Prior and Broad did brilliantly with the bat and set us up for the win, it was the outstanding performances of our bowlers that actually delivered the victory. They kept India under pressure and forced quite a few errors, in addition to the LBWs and stump-breakers.

by Guest Thu 28 Jul 2011, 2:59 pm

Just so you lads know, the second test debate is at the top of the cricket section

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 28 Jul 2011, 3:59 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:if india lose the series they cant be called true world no1, cos they havent won everywhere while being no1...

no one can be classed as true no1 till they have won everhwhere as no1

Has anyone actually held a grandslam in the modern era.... all test nations beaten home and away? Even the great Australian sides of the 90's/early 2000's managed that ( I think?)

by longhopmerchant Thu 28 Jul 2011, 5:38 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
cricketfan90 wrote:if india lose the series they cant be called true world no1, cos they havent won everywhere while being no1...

no one can be classed as true no1 till they have won everhwhere as no1

Has anyone actually held a grandslam in the modern era.... all test nations beaten home and away? Even the great Australian sides of the 90's/early 2000's managed that ( I think?)

Incorrect my friend, when we finally won in India in 2004, we had only managed to draw the home series in 2003/04. Stephen Waugh's final series. We beat everyone else though!!!

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