Ireland vs Italy - Discussion Thread - Teams Announced

[MMC]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
10 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
22 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

Italy:
15 Andrea Masi
14 Tommaso Benvenuti
13 Gonzalo Canale
12 Gonzalo Garcia
11 Mirco Bergamasco
10 Luciano Orquera
9 Fabio Semenzato
8 Sergio Parisse (captain)
7 Mauro Bergamasco
6 Alessandro Zanni
5 Cornelius van Zyl
4 Quintin Geldenhuys
3 Martin Castrogiovanni
2 Leonardo Ghiraldini
1 Salvatore Perugini.

Replacements:
16 Fabio Ongaro
17 Andrea Lo Cicero
18 Marco Bortolami
19 Paul Derbyshire
20 Edoardo Gori
21 Riccardo Bocchino
22 Luke McLean.

Afternoon all.

With just a few days to go now until a massive winner takes all game between Ireland and Italy, it's time to get our thoughts and opinions into one place.

There are many topics to discuss;

- Who'll start at 10?
- Who'll win the battle of the scrums?
- Who plays at 12 if D'Arcy isn't fit?

As a result of not getting the try bonus point against the USA (with Italy having managed to do so earlier today), we find ourselves in a situation whereby we either top the group or go home.

This is an absolutely massive game and the Italians will have been targeting for a long time now, much like Ireland targeted the Australia game.

So what are people's thoughts and feelings about the game?

- What tactics should we use?
- Where should we attack Italy?
- Where can Italy hurt Ireland?
- Who'll get the call in the highly contested positions of 9, 10 and 11?

I can't wait for this one.

Bring. It. On.

[Mickado]

Not sure about the Leinster boys holding Tigers in the HEC Qtr either, fairly sure Tigers won the scrummaging battle there.

Fairly sure they didn't. We both lost one agianst the head. Pretty much every other scrum was locked.

[Boyne]

If the rumours that Murray is starting are true then it begs the question, what has Reddan done to lose his place?
I think Reddan has been playing very well…

Didnt Murray start against the USA. Was it not his position in the first place? In fairness I dont think anybody can call dibs on the 9 jersey

Certainly not if they dont play for Munster!!!

[BlueMuff]

If the rumours that Murray is starting are true then it begs the question, what has Reddan done to lose his place?
I think Reddan has been playing very well…

Didnt Murray start against the USA. Was it not his position in the first place? In fairness I dont think anybody can call dibs on the 9 jersey

Certainly not if they dont play for Munster!!!

Murray was the number 1 SH for Munster at the end of last season (played in both games where Munster beat Leinster ).
Dont see what your point is. Same could be said for Reddan and Boss

[dublin_dave]

murray over reddan. hmmm. he had a good cameo v aus however i dont see him as number 1 scrum half yet. He will not be behind a pack as dominant on Sunday.

losing poc will be a big blow but cullen is a reasonable replacement at this level.

[BlueMuff]

Is Poc defo out? Huge loss Imo

[rodders]

Not defo. Says on the IRFU website he's due to train on Friday. He will be a massive loss if he's out but it would be a big risk to play him.

Maybe he might make the bench?

[valjester]

murray over reddan. hmmm. he had a good cameo v aus however i dont see him as number 1 scrum half yet. He will not be behind a pack as dominant on Sunday.

losing poc will be a big blow but cullen is a reasonable replacement at this level.

If rog is starting then it makes sense to start Murray with him, keep the provincial partnerships together and Murray brings a nice bit of physicallity to the position. It also means we are likely to finish the game with sexton and reddan which is a good thing.


If we are missing poc the step down to Leo is huge, especially at this level. If poco is out it will be a major blow but hopefully we will cope against italy.

[BlueMuff]

Its a difficult one. No point in saving him if we are going home on Monday but no point in risking him if we can beat Italy without him.

[Thomond]

Reddan has been solid. Not spectacularly by any means nut not poor either. Murray has been decent,Reddan can consider himself unlucky not to start. Murray is a more physical scrum half and perhaps Deccis believes another good tackler is important for a team who like to bash it through the middle.

[dublin_dave]

major doubt by all accounts.

big loss alright. To be honest if he is not fully fit i would rather we put faith in Leo. same applies to Drico.

Its not as if we are firing in Toner or Mick O'Driscoll.

I think we should have enough in the tank to win this without putting Drico and POC into a game where they are not 100%

[Irish Curry]

I think it might be wise to have POC on the bench for this match if he is not 100% but still able to feature. We've all seen the impact he has he when brought on from the bench and it might be useful if we are struggling a bit in the second half. POC on the bench would probably mean Ryan would be somewhere in the 22.

[valjester]

I think it might be wise to have POC on the bench for this match if he is not 100% but still able to feature. We've all seen the impact he has he when brought on from the bench and it might be useful if we are struggling a bit in the second half. POC on the bench would probably mean Ryan would be somewhere in the 22.

If poc starts then Ryan will be in the 22, but if poc is on the bench then cullen will start. Doc and ryan doesn't work as neither are lineout specialists. In the six nations we struggled against Italy in the lineout as we had no option at the tail, we don't need to handicap ourselves again

[rodders]

Thats interesting Val because Gert Smal thinks Ryan is POC's successor.

Anyways Cullen is a good player and a gnarly old fox. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves as a player or captain. If this was the 6N I'd be happy for him to be playing Italy.

However this is such a huge game and POC has been not only arguably our best player this season but he seems to lift the other tight 5 to another level. DOC and Best in particular aren't the same players when he's not there I don't think. He also intimidates the opposition in a way Cullen doesn't.

He's a massive loss and if he's not there that will give Italy even more belief.

[Knowsit17]

The difference with Italy and possibly any other side Ireland will meet in this WC from now on is that they're more likely to be prepared for a knuckled down forward battle. In fact there's an argument Italy might prefer to grind it out through the set piece than try so desperately to release their backs as Australia did. The Aussies were less apt to respond to being choked out of the game by the grim Irish pack.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Thats interesting Val because Gert Smal thinks Ryan is POC's successor.

He also said he thought Buckley could be one of the the best props in the world,I now take his utterances with a large pinch of sodium chloride.

[Standulstermen]

Yeah im not certain how much of what Smal says he actually believes. Hope to God POC is fit for this one but even if he isnt i dont think Italy have the physicality to match Ferris, Heaslip, SOB, Healy, Best etc

[rodders]

Thats interesting Val because Gert Smal thinks Ryan is POC's successor.

He also said he thought Buckley could be one of the the best props in the world,I now take his utterances with a large pinch of sodium chloride.

Well that is a point well made I'd say

[asoreleftshoulder]

Lol,I was just watching The Big Bang Theory so that's my excuse for the geeky lingo.

[Mickado]

Team is out

Healy - Best - Ross
DOC - POC
Ferris - Heaslip - O'Brien
Murray - ROG
Earls - Darcy - BOD - Bowe
Kearney

Cronin - Court - Ryan - Leamy - Reddan - Sexton - Trimble

[GunsGerms]

The knockout stages have begun.

ROG for Sexton
Murray for Reddan

It's a bit of a gamble on murray if you ask me.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

The knockout stages have begun.

ROG for Sexton
Murray for Reddan

It's a bit of a gamble on murray if you ask me.

Bit of a gamble on POC. Murray can always be replaced during the game if he has a mare. But Imagine if we hammer them at the expense of POC. Hmmmm the possible Welsh match would look a lot scarier

[Mickado]

POC will be grand lads. It's all mind games.

Please let it all be mind games...

[eirebilly]

Personally, i would still like to see Sexton start against Italy. If he cant turn it on in the first half then i would bring ROG on. I would also start with Reddan over Murray just now.

Its going to be a tough match but i feel that Ireland should be too strong for Italy.

[WillyGilly]

I'm not convinced Sexton's head is in the right place. We all thought we'd witnessed the changing of the guard and I reckon we might have just watched it change back. Let ROG make the game comfortable for us and then let Sexton have a few pressure kicks in the last 20 if he wants his place.

[MMC]

Personally, i would still like to see Sexton start against Italy. If he cant turn it on in the first half then i would bring ROG on. I would also start with Reddan over Murray just now.

That's what I would've done. I think ROG and Murray are classy enough to control this game though. Can't wait now.

[eirebilly]

I really am torn WillyGilly. I want Sexton to do well but i can't look past the fact that ROG has been the better player this RWC.

Since the rise of Sexton, ROG's game has improved out of sight. Its been great to watch.

[Cari]

Tommy's there!

That's all.

[eirebilly]

Bucket of Water needed for Cari

[Boyne]

If anyone can turn form around its Sexton- ask Munster.

He will be fine. By picking ROG and Murray (should be Boss) together, he has obviously indicated that this no 1 1/2 back paring is Sexton and Reddan.

I seem to be the only one unimpressed (or less impressed) with Murray. Against Oz he was scragged badly at scrumtime on our own line and there were further errors.

So jury is still out.

[Mickado]

Of course Tommy is there!

Sexton clearly has a problem with confidence, I wonder how this will affect him. IRELAND need 2 out halves, IRELAND need Sexton to be up to scratch so rather than (some) Munster fans just being happy that ROG is selected, we should be discussing how to get Sexton back on track.

[Cari]

Is it really a confidence thing with Sexytoes? Odd isn't it? Given his role in the Heineken Cup Final this year, and in the Six Nations....I know the World Cup is huge, but I'd thought he'd cope with that OK?

[Boyne]

Its the fricking ball. Even Price Johnny from England missed loads. He needs to sort it out tough.

[eirebilly]

I am a Munsterman and feel that Sexton should start. If he gets into the game against Italy then his confidence will shoot up again. I can only hope as an Irishman that this happens as an on form Sexton is a very good player :-)

[eirebilly]

Boyne, the ball is but a small issue in this. Several kickers have adjusted to it and some havent. Sexton appears more to me as if he is down on confidence, if he gets that back then it will be good for Ireland.

[Cari]

Maybe that's what it is Billy - he's not getting the breaks.

[Mickado]

Cari, I think if anything his performances this year prove that his confidence is now low. We’ve seen him handle the pressure in the past, but he’s not doing it now, I think that’s because he’s not confident in himself right now. The Leinster kicking coach says (and who am I to argue) that he hasn’t changed his technique, which is a good thing. The rest of his game (including kicking from hand) has been as good as ROGs as far as I’m concerned, it’s just his place kicking that needs sorting out.

[eirebilly]

True Cari, thats why i would have started him against Italy as i feel that Italy (with their predominantly forward play) is the perfect opposition for Sexton to ignite Irelands backs and get his confidence up. A confident Sexton is pretty important to Irelands cause i feel.

[Cari]

That's what I mean Mick, it's odd that his confidence has dipped now after having such a good year...but then we don't know what's going on with him personally...so...I just hope he gets his mojo back because he's really not a poor player.

[Mickado]

Maybe he’s not used to pressure from another outhalf. Since 2009 he’s never had any real competition at Leinster, and he’s started most of Ireland most important games. He needs to get his head around how to deal with that, and we need to see a HC Finalesque performance out of him. He’s got it in him, I’m sure of that, I doubted him once* and he made a fool of me, not going to happen again!

*For about 8 seconds at half time in the HC final, when 2 Cardiff lads were telling me that he wasn't up to standard and i didn't see enough in the first half to be able to argue back with them.

[Cari]

I bet those lads were quiet at the final whistle!

Maybe that's what it is. I hope he does sort it out. Ireland can't rely on ROG forever....especially if he might retire...

[MMC]

I've been saying all week that it should be Sexton and Reddan but at the same time I can't see the consternation over the ROG selection (mainly on leinsterfans to be fair). ROG has been the form player. In any case, if we win on Sunday I can't see anyone other than Sexton starting against Wales.

ROG is better at getting the backline moving than some give him credit for. With any luck we'll be more than 2 scores ahead after 60 which would be a perfect time for Sexton to come on and prove his doubters wrong.

I hope he does.

[rodders]

Its the fricking ball. Even Price Johnny from England missed loads. He needs to sort it out tough.

Dayglo was saying this morning that Wilkinson is not happy with the ball and thats the reason he asked for it to be switched. Apparantly it isn't the same as the one they've been using for the past year or so.

It's interesting how it seems to be affecting some kickers more than others. I was never a place kicker so don't know much about it but I presume kicking styles have something to do with it. Interestingly Sextons kicking out of hand is better than ROG's right now.

Anyways I think Kidney has got it wrong on the halfbacks. I think Sexton has been playing very well with the ball in hand, better than ROG and his game is more suited to the way we need to play, which is high tempo and using O'Brien, Heaslip, Healy, Bowe and Ferris through the middle.

ROG is a distributer and a kicker, no matter what he and Kidney say, which is not much use if you don't have penetration in the outside channels. He can't draw defenders the way Sexon does so needs to stand much deeper which means everything is signposted and the likes of O'Brien are much less effective.

Reddan,Sexton and Heaslip are a tried and tested combination and I don't like too much rotating around the key combinations as it affects the cohesion and balance of the side in attact and defence.

Trimble is very unfortunate again and will have to accept he's going to be a bit part player for the rest of the competition no matter how well he plays. Right now he's playing better than either Earls or Bowe but it looks like that back 3 is set in stone.

Other than that it's our strongest side. Great to see POC has been named as that is a massive boost.

[red_stag]

Will we see Sexton at 12 once again in this game. Id have been happy for Sexton to play personally but another bad day from the boot in a stadium reknowned for difficulty kicking and it would be very hard to see him comeback in this tournament.

[rodders]

ROG is better at getting the backline moving than some give him credit for.

He's better a distributing the ball along the backline, no doubt about it. However that is not where our strengths are in attack.

Our best attacking players are O'Brien, Heaslip and Ferris and also Bowe hitting lines through the middle. Sexton is much more effective for this because he stands flatter, has a better short passing game and has a running threat himself. Therefore defenders can't just line O'Brien or Bowe up, as Sexton is capable of throwing the dummy and making a break himself.

Look how ineffective Bowe and Trimble were against England in the summer. The English midfield was able to just line them up and smash them because they knew they were getting the ball. That is much harder to do when Sexton is playing because he's closer to the gainline and is able to draw defenders and create gaps for the strike runners.

[Standulstermen]

Dont agree Rodders that Sextons kicking out of hand has been better than ROG's. I think they have both been mixed with O'Gara slightly better. Its a good team and i would be looking for the back 5 of our pack to win this for us. That is imo where we are much better.

No complaints about the team at all but im just gutted for Trimble. Hopefully he will get some meaningful gametime. Massive bonus having Court fit on the bench also

[rodders]

Yeah it has stand, much better. Sextons kicking from hand was inch perfect against Australia and he varied his game supberbly.

By comparison ROG has kicked very loosely this tournament so far.

[Standulstermen]

His kicking from hand against USA was diabolical. ROG's was very good against Russia

[Sin é]

No surprises really. With regard to Sexton, Liam Toland has written an article as to why ROG has been picked and how it affects everyone.

Clearly number 10 is key and every team, especially the forwards, wants rewards for their work. In other words, “I’ll get you into their half and you figure out what to do then but three points, at least, thank you very much.”

The difference between a try and a seven-pointer is not just two points. If you can’t guarantee the conversion or a hard fought for three points, the team will be affected.

Winning ‘the hearts and minds’ of the squad is your outhalf’s role. So how does Declan Kidney balance his own needs (continued employment through success) and his team’s (trophies) with the individual’s (selection)?

Take our outhalves; who to start and why? If I were Sexton after not making the cut I would expect Kidney to be honest. He might have said something like, “Jonny, you’re a brilliant player, my general, and crucial to our success but you are missing too many kicks at goal. So for this dog-fight I’m going to go with Ronan.”

“Fair enough Deccie,” says Jonny, “so you’re saying that if my percentages improve to over 80 per cent I’m back in?

Deccie, feeling a little trapped, may respond with a “yes”. Sexton goes away happy knowing the key to the 10 jersey is his place-kicking. He knows he’s a brilliant kicker so it’s all about sorting that and all will be fine once more.

The team will understand as points are crucial for Sunday and O’Gara represents the best chance for that.

Read the rest here
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0930/1224304998387.html

I'd blame Cheika/Contempomi for the issues with Sexton's kicking. Even if he was outhalf at Leinster (for Magners), someone else always took the kicks until Contepomi's injuries. He never got ahead of Contepomi competitively - that is probably still in his head now.

[rodders]

His kicking from hand against USA was diabolical. ROG's was very good against Russia

The USA was 3 games ago and he's since turned it around. ROG hardly kicked vs Russia and his two cross kicks were too long and too short respectively, the 2nd one being a terrible option. Over the 3 games too many of his kicks are going down the throat of the full back and not finding their range. He had a very mixed bag against Russia and how he got MOTM is beyond me.

[D24tress]

right lads last week i got a source that gave me the team for russia and it was pretty spot on the mark except that court got injured ( i had a thread about possible lineups)

now this week the team will be

Healy
Best
Ross

DOC
POC (injury doubt, cullen to start if injured)

Ferris
SOB
Heislip

Murray
ROG

Earls
Dorce
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

I am inclined to believe the person after they got the russia team one correct and i dont think you could have guessed it

On the money again second game in a row

I dont mind ROG in there, i think if we can go in at half time winning 9-3 or so with sexton to come on and italy to try chase the game we should win pulling away

[Sponsored content]