Ireland vs Italy - Discussion Thread - Teams Announced

[MMC]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
10 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
22 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

Italy:
15 Andrea Masi
14 Tommaso Benvenuti
13 Gonzalo Canale
12 Gonzalo Garcia
11 Mirco Bergamasco
10 Luciano Orquera
9 Fabio Semenzato
8 Sergio Parisse (captain)
7 Mauro Bergamasco
6 Alessandro Zanni
5 Cornelius van Zyl
4 Quintin Geldenhuys
3 Martin Castrogiovanni
2 Leonardo Ghiraldini
1 Salvatore Perugini.

Replacements:
16 Fabio Ongaro
17 Andrea Lo Cicero
18 Marco Bortolami
19 Paul Derbyshire
20 Edoardo Gori
21 Riccardo Bocchino
22 Luke McLean.

Afternoon all.

With just a few days to go now until a massive winner takes all game between Ireland and Italy, it's time to get our thoughts and opinions into one place.

There are many topics to discuss;

- Who'll start at 10?
- Who'll win the battle of the scrums?
- Who plays at 12 if D'Arcy isn't fit?

As a result of not getting the try bonus point against the USA (with Italy having managed to do so earlier today), we find ourselves in a situation whereby we either top the group or go home.

This is an absolutely massive game and the Italians will have been targeting for a long time now, much like Ireland targeted the Australia game.

So what are people's thoughts and feelings about the game?

- What tactics should we use?
- Where should we attack Italy?
- Where can Italy hurt Ireland?
- Who'll get the call in the highly contested positions of 9, 10 and 11?

I can't wait for this one.

Bring. It. On.

[Nos na Gaoithe]

Forget about out wide. It is the centres and halfbacks that need targetting. Same approach as the Aussies match. Their midfield can be exposed and targetted.

Agreed. Don't want to see any of ROG's long flat skip passes!! Just pin them in their own 22 and then pummel their forwards and midfield to pieces at the breakdown and fringes. Penalties and tries will ensue...

Thats why I wanted Sexton to start. None of the maverick stuff from ROG. If it works great but I can't get those two intercepts out of my head. I know the 1st one was D'arcy but it came from ROG calling a backline move inside our own half.

ROG needs to play heads up and not try and prove he's Quade Cooper with the ball in his hands.

Whenever I've seen ROG do this it's because:

a) The team are behind and looking for inspiration from anywhere (think Munster-Leinster HC semi).
b) He's coming on as an impact sub and feels he has something to prove over Sexton.

I don't think he'll be feeling any of that this Sunday. So hopefully his kicking and general tactical genius will come to the fore. Then - if it all goes well - Sexto can begin the more extravagant backline play in the 2nd half.

[red_stag]

I think extravagance in the backline is our downfall. How often do we actually just run and fix defender, make a 5m pass, run and fix defender, make a 5m pass etc.

Against Australia on our own goal line we did it. We made quite a lot of metres without setting up a single ruck and when Bowe ran out of space he gave a small kick ahead. We then shoved the Aussie into touch and won the lineout. Perfect!

[rodders]

I like that Mick. Penalty awarded to Ireland - 'we'll take the scrum' 'Shot at goal please sir'.

Good call stag

[Mickado]

Whatever about winning a penalty and choosing a scrum, I think we should immediately look to create one.

[red_stag]

As in 'knock on' on purpose

Ah I get you maul tackle!!

[Nos na Gaoithe]

I think extravagance in the backline is our downfall. How often do we actually just run and fix defender, make a 5m pass, run and fix defender, make a 5m pass etc.

Against Australia on our own goal line we did it. We made quite a lot of metres without setting up a single ruck and when Bowe ran out of space he gave a small kick ahead. We then shoved the Aussie into touch and won the lineout. Perfect!

Well, as I already said, I DONT want Ireland to try to win the game with some idea of extravagant back line passing movements. Win the game in the first 40 mins with good solid territorial gameplay, fierce breakdown intensity, a 9-12 point lead and no tries conceded.

But we do have some back-line flare... and I'd like to see that used when appropriate. Otherwise you become predictable and then your main gameplan becomes less effective.

[debaters1]

As a Munster fan it would delight me no end if Sexton was starting. Because that would be based on him place kicking well and effecting his other attributes to a high standard. However, he is place kicking poorly, and perhaps as importantly, the rest of his game while still solid, is not (as was previously the case) so far a head of ROG. ROG is playing the best rugby of his life, in every facet of his game. He has taken on more running and while still just a speedbump, he he as commited as ever at being that speedbump in the tackle. Unlike Cooper or his predecessor DH, he never shirks the tackle.

So why shouldn't he be rewarded? Put it this way, when ROG was playing awfully 18months ago, people called for his head. Missed kicks were another nail in his coffin etc etc. Why dont the same rules apply? Take TOL, still our best defensive option at 9, did a job the last time he played Italy to very good effect. But Deccie was 100% correct in leaving him at home because the rest of his game was shoite.

Now Sexton is not anywhere near as off form as that, but you cannot carryy a guy in an area where you have real cover. Sexton earned his call up post 6N 2009, ROG has done likewise. This is a GOOD thing lads.

Hand on heart I'll freely admit that when both players are playing their best then Sexton is better, but latent capacity is absolutely fugging useless if it remains latent.

ROG to start, Sexton to finish and get his mojo back. The team and replacements to earn a hard fought win and make the 1/4s.

[Thomond]

Same old sh!t on these threads. Anyway, ROG is starting as his kicking has been decent so far. In a stadium where the world's best have had problems, you need a great kicker. Sexton isn't a prolific kicker and hasn't been for a lot of his career. Murray is starting I would imagine as a safety net for ROG. They're going to target him and it takes some pressure of the backrow if we have another guy to put in big hits.

I wouldn't be in favour of taking off ROG if he is playing well? Why wouldn't you reward good play? Sexton isn't getting our backline moving,he is executing our gameplan well. Give ROG a go to do the same. Sexton should be disappointed by getting dropped,a good player will work his ass off to get his place back. That's what we're expecting of Johnny.

[ME-109]

oh oh...the thought police will come and get you. You could be accused of provincialism and I note that while you have said some words of encouragement about Sexton there still appeared to be too much happiness in relation to ROG getting picked.

BlueMuff has been sent for a frontal labotomy to ensure he maintains a completely middle of the road non controversial agreement with everything approach going forward etc.

[Thomond]

I couldn't give a toos what the others think. I supported Sexton for long enough as have others,now he is starting ROG deserves some support. I back all the fellas in green to the hilt.

[rodders]

Kidney has alread said that Sexton will be coming on. I don't like to hear that to be honest. The coach needs to have faith in his starting XV to do the job and make the necessary changes depending on how the game is going.

This give player X 60 min and player Y 20 min is fine in pre season friendlies but not in competitive internationals.

[ME-109]

I would not have been worried if either had started but ROG is playing the better and the call with Murray is a good one. Frankly its not in this area we will win or lose the game.

Rodders you spout a load of sh.te on here. But I will agree with everything you say if you can point me to the written or spoken word where Kidney has said that Sexton "will be coming on".

[rodders]

Rodders you spout a load of sh.te on here. But I will agree with everything you say if you can point me to the written or spoken word where Kidney has said that Sexton "will be coming on".

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2011/0930/1224305020512.html

"Johnny is a top-class outhalf and top-class place-kicker. He’s disappointed that he’s not starting, but when he comes on and he does his bit I’ll look forward to seeing it.” Declan Kidney

[ME-109]

Well well it appears I have to agree with everything you say...no problem...

[rodders]

No problem DOD, I'll let you off with that one. This place wouldn't be very interesting if we all agreed on everything .

[Sin é]

Kidney has alread said that Sexton will be coming on. I don't like to hear that to be honest. The coach needs to have faith in his starting XV to do the job and make the necessary changes depending on how the game is going.

This give player X 60 min and player Y 20 min is fine in pre season friendlies but not in competitive internationals.

If its tight, both will be kept on for a drop goal attempt. I think it will be very tight for the first half, and then open up with Ireland scoring a couple of tries (BOD, Heaslip & Bowe).

I thought Sexton played better (against Aus) when ROG came on.

[dublin_dave]

i thought sexton was good v aus with the notable exception of his place kicking. he was poor v usa in all facets of the game

Hopefully it does not come down to a last minute drop goal......

mind you a wins a win but id much prefer a high scoring try fest ala 5 years ago when we lost 6 nations on points different. We played some unbelievable rugby that day

[ME-109]

The only thing I would say is whether Mr Thornley is using a bit of license in his reporting. No one else has that comment which would as you say is not the best thing to be saying.

[rodders]

I think Sexton will probably come on for D'arcy sin. I'd rather Kidney just waited to see how the match is going before making comments about substitutions.

If it's 9-6 to us after 65 min I wouldn't be making changes in key positions.

[Mickado]

Does anyone think that we should just leave someone on for 80 minutes?

Sometimes it's tactically better to just leave them on, especially if they're playing well.

[Feckless Rogue]

80 minutes? EOS once left a player on for 7 years.

[rodders]

Does anyone think that we should just leave someone on for 80 minutes?

Sometimes it's tactically better to just leave them on, especially if they're playing well.

Absolutely. I think if players know they're coming off it affects their mind set and confidence.

On ROG specifically, he has to do the 80 min now, if the match is close, because of his goal kicking. We've lost that safety net from the bench.

Kidney is wrong on two aspects in the above article. ROG cannot play like Sexton with the ball in his hands and Sextons goal kicking percentages are a problem.

[greybeard]

"Johnny is a top-class outhalf and top-class place-kicker. He’s disappointed that he’s not starting, but when he comes on and he does his bit I’ll look forward to seeing it.” Declan Kidney

Note: he doesn't say who he'll be coming on for...

[rodders]

80 minutes? EOS once left a player on for 7 years.

Simon Easterbuy?

[dublin_dave]

i would agree. if rog bosses the game from the outset he should remain at 10 all game.

as rodders says though he will probably bring on sexton for darcy.

may not be a bad thing to keep italy pinned in their own half and frustrated if we have a decent lead. they do not have the ability to score tries from deep. two decent kickers in key positions could really squeeze the italians out of the game.

in theory i think deccoe may have got this spot on. Lets hope so.

Ireland by 15. believe

[dublin_dave]

lads i dont know why we analyze what deccie says anymore.

he says absolutely nothing to the media and speaks in riddles. Thats just the way he chooses to do things. Let him off. He is not going to change things. I know it can be a bit frustrating but if it keeps morale high il give him a pass.

He was not going to stick the oar into sextons poor kicking % in the media and put a positive spin on things. Although it would make great copy for journos he will not say anything controversial even if it is the truth.

[Sin é]

Dave - I love how Deccie has you all in knots trying to understand him!

After a few years, you too will learn and just think "In Deccie we trust".

Mind you, I can see exactly where he is coming from with all of these selections.

Saw on Sexton O2 blog that he is doing something different in his kicking routine and is now sorting it out. Seems to be fine with it.

[rodders]

After a few years more Grand slams,a RWC final victory and a series win over the ABs, you too will learn and just think "In Deccie we trust".

[Artful_Dodger]

Disappointed to see Earls ahead of Trimble again especially against Italy where we could use some added physicality at 11.

[rodders]

I think Earls is good for a starting spot but Trimble probably does offer more on the wing even if his finishing isn't as good.

I wish Kidney had the cahones to move BOD to 12 and try Bowe or Earls at 13. That way we'd have our most potent backs on the field.

Sexton can cover 12 and Geordan Murphy could cover the back 3 from the bench.

It won't happen but there's no harm in dreaming

[eirebilly]

Someone please correct me if i am wrong but arent Italy one of the teams with the lowest penatly count against them? If so, doesnt seem to me if this game will be won on penalty's.

There seems to be this myth that ROG is not a very good attacker and only a good place kicker. I find this a little silly, ROG is a pretty good attacker in the way he gets the lines moving. He is far from being a 1 trick pony. His defense is not that great but he is committed and makes the hits, probably why Murray is startng as well to give him that extra bit of cover.

Personally i would have started with Sexton and Reddan but i am certainly not going to begrudge ROG his start as he has been the form 10 for Ireland the RWC.

[rodders]

Someone please correct me if i am wrong but arent Italy one of the teams with the lowest penatly count against them? If so, doesnt seem to me if this game will be won on penalty's.

Italy have the 2nd lowest penalty count in the competition so far. I don't think place kicking will be a big factor in this game unless it's us conceding the penalties.

[BlueMuff]

I think Earls is good for a starting spot but Trimble probably does offer more on the wing even if his finishing isn't as good.

I wish Kidney had the cahones to move BOD to 12 and try Bowe or Earls at 13. That way we'd have our most potent backs on the field.

Sexton can cover 12 and Geordan Murphy could cover the back 3 from the bench.

It won't happen but there's no harm in dreaming

I think we are finding some common ground. Totally agree with moving BOD to 12. Wont happen this WC but should happen in the 6Ns.

[eirebilly]

Cheers rodders, i thought they were fairly low.

I am not using that as a way to have Sexton picked, i just honestly dont think that penalty's will be damaging if Italy have the 2nd lowest count. I hope that its going to be a great match but it will be by no means easy.

[ME-109]

Disappointed to see Earls ahead of Trimble again especially against Italy where we could use some added physicality at 11.

Yes because physicality in the wing is where this game will be won and lost...

Trimble is a great back up to have and his form has improved over the last 12 months + but Earls is a much better option...I think he has almost twice as high a strike rate as Trimble.

[debaters1]

I think I must be the only one who thinks that Trimble should be starting in place of Bowe not Earls. While Tommy has scored this RWC, of the three, imho, while not performing badly has performed least well. I include the shocker that Earls had against France in August, because in his other matches he was much better and was a hoa-er of a bouce away from scoring what may well have been a winning try in Bordeaux having created the chance himself.

Trimble is entitled to feel aggreived at another benchspot, but he can look enviously at either the 11 or 14 jersey.....

[Mickado]

ROG = just good kicker
Sexton = just good runner

These are both really lazy stereotypes. ROG has been at the helm of some sublime backs play for Ireland and Munster, Sexton has eeked out wins on the road for Leinster where he kicks 7/7 and scores all of our points and he's kicked 5 penalties to beat the world champions too.

I have every faith that ROG will do a great job and Ireland will win, right now I'm just concerned that we need Sexton to get his mojo back because we need both of these boys on song to win the world cup.

[Artful_Dodger]

Disappointed to see Earls ahead of Trimble again especially against Italy where we could use some added physicality at 11.

Yes because physicality in the wing is where this game will be won and lost...

Trimble is a great back up to have and his form has improved over the last 12 months + but Earls is a much better option...I think he has almost twice as high a strike rate as Trimble.

Q missed tackle by Earls.

Trimble was probably the form back in the warm ups and should of been started long before the Russia match.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I agree with Mick.

I think overall Sexton is a better (more complete) player than ROG and suits our style more, also think ROG is a better impact sub than Sexton.

I think we should go for Sexton against Wales (horses for courses) I think it would have been good to have let Sexton have another game here to get his confidence back.

That being said support ROG all the way now that Deccie selected him and trust him to get the job done, just I would have gone with Sexton, sin e.

[ME-109]

Disagree. He played well but is still not better than Earls (doesnt score enough).

Meh you could say lots of things about that game about a lot of players but in the WC is where it counts and Earls strike rate in the games where it matters rather than the odd good score in the distant past (not in the 6ns for example) suits better..

anyhow Bowe was off form and is coming back nicely...Earls, Bowe, Kearney much more potent.

[Notch]

Kidney has alread said that Sexton will be coming on. I don't like to hear that to be honest. The coach needs to have faith in his starting XV to do the job and make the necessary changes depending on how the game is going.

This give player X 60 min and player Y 20 min is fine in pre season friendlies but not in competitive internationals.

He didn't say he will be coming on at 10 though, did he?

[Notch]

Disappointed to see Earls ahead of Trimble again especially against Italy where we could use some added physicality at 11.

Yes because physicality in the wing is where this game will be won and lost...

Trimble is a great back up to have and his form has improved over the last 12 months + but Earls is a much better option...I think he has almost twice as high a strike rate as Trimble.

Q missed tackle by Earls.

Trimble was probably the form back in the warm ups and should of been started long before the Russia match.

Physicality on the wing is not to be sniffed at. For a long time we have lacked strike runners in the backline. Trimble is very unlucky to be on the bench- its the only decision I don't agree with and I would want to see him get some significant gametime. A fresh Trimble with a point to prove for the last 20 minutes is a very potent weapon. If we are getting the ball from our pack having him running hard at tired players would be a thing of beauty. Otherwise I am happy with the team, particularly the halfbacks.

Also, I have every faith in the abilities of Earls and Bowe and expect to see both improve in this match.

[rodders]

Kidney has alread said that Sexton will be coming on. I don't like to hear that to be honest. The coach needs to have faith in his starting XV to do the job and make the necessary changes depending on how the game is going.

This give player X 60 min and player Y 20 min is fine in pre season friendlies but not in competitive internationals.

He didn't say he will be coming on at 10 though, did he?

Neither did I

[Irish Curry]

I think it were Sexton comes on will depend on the score at the time. If the game is won at that point (unlikely) he'll come on at 10 but otherwise I would think that Kidney will bring him on at 12. Sexton has the ability to close out a match and has showen it but I would have doubts about him doing that in his current form.

[Feckless Rogue]

The three backrowers of the Apocalypse will CRUSH the Italians.

Spoiler:

[Irish Curry]

[quote="Feckless Rogue"]The three backrowers of the Apocalypse will CRUSH the Italians.

[spoiler][img]http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6154/6198461624_8f98bdd45f_b.jpg[/img][/spoiler] [/quote]

Classic

[Standulstermen]

I dont have an issue with Earls selection but arguing that trimble isnt as good as earls is not going to fly. Trimbles form is far better than ANY other Irish back. Finishing i would give to earls (russia first try for instance) but Earls isnt getting the scores against the big teams is he?

They both have strengths but in reality it is Tommy Bowe who can feel slightly lucky to be in the 'cert' category that we do have in certain positions. No complaints. 3 great options and i hope to see them in tandem on sunday

[mrsuperclear]

I would have started Trimble ahead of Earls prior to the world cup, but Earls' form since it has started hasn't merited him being dropped IMO. Trimble is still very unlucky since his form hasn't seemed to drop an inch, and both Earls and Bowe by implication are lucky in that sense, but I wouldn't really argue too much about it. After Kidney masterminding that Australia win he deserves to make whatever calls he feels necessary without too much scrutiny really.

Delighted for ROG by the way. He absolutely deserves to be our starting FH on the performances he's given recently and, as good as Sexton has been, we can't rely on a flaky goalkicker if we have ambition to get to the latter stages of this competition. Deal with Italy first obviously, but after that, (on the proviso that he keeps nailing his kicks) ROG starts every game for me.

It probably won't pan out that way as I don't seem to be able to second guess Kidney and his horses for courses menu, but assuming Sexton doesn't prove he's rectified his kicking on Sunday (and I doubt he'll get the chance to as he'll most likely come on at 12 with ROG still on the pitch unless we're way out in front), it becomes too much of a risk starting him in knock out rugby. Deccie will obviously have a better insight into his mentality though after being with him for months and seeing him train during the weeks. He'll know what to do....

Finally, another 6 o'clock start? And I think if we win the group our quarter final is a 6 o'clock start then as well? A bit of a lie in after a Saturday night would be nice.....

[Standulstermen]

I would have started Trimble ahead of Earls prior to the world cup, but Earls' form since it has started hasn't merited him being dropped IMO. Trimble is still very unlucky since his form hasn't seemed to drop an inch, and both Earls and Bowe by implication are lucky in that sense, but I wouldn't really argue too much about it. After Kidney masterminding that Australia win he deserves to make whatever calls he feels necessary without too much scrutiny really.

Delighted for ROG by the way. He absolutely deserves to be our starting FH on the performances he's given recently and, as good as Sexton has been, we can't rely on a flaky goalkicker if we have ambition to get to the latter stages of this competition. Deal with Italy first obviously, but after that, (on the proviso that he keeps nailing his kicks) ROG starts every game for me.

It probably won't pan out that way as I don't seem to be able to second guess Kidney and his horses for courses menu, but assuming Sexton doesn't prove he's rectified his kicking on Sunday (and I doubt he'll get the chance to as he'll most likely come on at 12 with ROG still on the pitch unless we're way out in front), it becomes too much of a risk starting him in knock out rugby. Deccie will obviously have a better insight into his mentality though after being with him for months and seeing him train during the weeks. He'll know what to do....

Finally, another 6 o'clock start? And I think if we win the group our quarter final is a 6 o'clock start then as well? A bit of a lie in after a Saturday night would be nice.....

Is the game not a half 8 ko?

I have no complaints witht the selection but i do think Trimble is just unlucky. Kidney is going to get it in the neck if we dont get through from one way or another so i agree he needs to be backed. Everytime i have lost hope Kidney seems to pick the team up to deliver big time. He deserves the RWC and hopefully the knives wont be out for him on his return

[mrsuperclear]

Is the game not a half 8 ko?

I have no complaints witht the selection but i do think Trimble is just unlucky. Kidney is going to get it in the neck if we dont get through from one way or another so i agree he needs to be backed. Everytime i have lost hope Kidney seems to pick the team up to deliver big time. He deserves the RWC and hopefully the knives wont be out for him on his return

One of my friends texted me and said it was at 6. Evil prank to wake me up early probably....the quarter would be at 6 though (double checked this time

I agree with you he's unlucky Stand. I know what you mean about losing hope, I was at the warm up match against France at home, and after the anger about TOL and Earls playing like imbeciles subsided, I was filled with far more dread than in 2007. He's proven himself to be either a genius or an exceptionally lucky man, so he deserves to have us chime "in deccie we trust" I suppose. You're right though, if we lose on Sunday, George Hook and Franno will be doing more than giving it to him in the neck, they'll crucify him. Even if we lost a quarter they would. Such is the professional game I suppose.

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