Your Ireland team to play the All Blacks in the 1st test

First topic message reminder :

There is always a lot of discussion from Irish posters, which is good, but sometimes things tend to go off in a tangent so, tout simplement, I wanted to ask you your opinion of who should start the first test v New Zealand. Note, this is YOUR team and not what you think Kidney will pick.

Full squad:
Ireland Squad (New Zealand tour 2012 with Test matches on 9, 16 and 23 June)

Forwards (17):
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster)*
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Chris Henry (Ballymena/Ulster)
Ronan Loughney (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Kevin McLaughlin (St.Mary's College/Leinster)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena /Ulster)
Brett Wilkinson (Galwegians/Connacht)*

Backs (13):
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O’Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
*Denotes Uncapped Player

NB Paul O'Connell is not included in the listed squad until a decision is made regarding his fitness on Friday.

My pick:

1. Healy
2. Best.
3. Ross.
4. POC
5. Ryan
6. O'Brien
7. O’Mahony
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. D'Arcy
13. O’Driscoll
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Fitzpatrick
18. Tuohy
19. McLaughlin
20. Murray
21 AN Other
21. Zebo

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin do u think kidney is a good coach or something?

Kidney is more a Director of Rugby rather than a coach.

The Ireland coaches are Feek, Smal, Kiss & Tainton.

I think on the whole they know their stuff.

Thats true, they don't want to bering too large a squad as it would weaken the provinces too much at the start of next season- nothing to do with the specific 30-odd players they are bringing though. They could have chosen a few different guys and still only brought 30. And if the IRFU didn't care, they could bring more. It's still their call.

If they wanted Gilroy instead of somebody who is in the squad they have brought he would be there. If they wanted Gilroy to tour, he'd be on the plane and there's nothing Ulster could do about it even if they wanted to. I don't think he is far away from a breakthrough though. He just has to oust Trimble from the Ulster side next season, which is an achievable goal for him. It's possible in that situation Kidney will do a DOC and pick the guy who can't make his provincial side anymore anyway, but in most reasonable peoples eyes making himself first choice in a squad with Trimble and Bowe would put him in line for higher honours.

Needless to say Ulster did not in any way stand in Gilroy's way, even if they could.

Kidney didn't select him - poor decision

The English cscrum went backwards because Kidney insisted in picking Ulster 4th choice TH as his TH cover plus the fact the lock behind him was not doing his job - poor decision number 2

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin do u think kidney is a good coach or something?

Kidney is more a Director of Rugby rather than a coach.

The Ireland coaches are Feek, Smal, Kiss & Tainton.

I think on the whole they know their stuff.

I think you are contradicting yourself there Notch - of course its going to make a difference to the resources of a particular province depending on who is selected, particularly if they are mainly there for tackle bag duty (like some of this fringe squad).

I'm saying it's the IRFUs decision- not Ulsters. And I'm saying that their decision to bring 30 players and not play any midweek games as opposed to 40 or 45 with midweek fixtures so as to not overly handicap the provinces should not be confused with the decision to select one player over another.

geoff998rugby wrote:Needless to say Ulster did not in any way stand in Gilroy's way, even if they could.

Kidney didn't select him - poor decision

The English cscrum went backwards because Kidney insisted in picking Ulster 4th choice TH as his TH cover plus the fact the lock behind him was not doing his job - poor decision number 2

I thought it was the Irish scrum that went backwards

Wasn't Ulster's 2nd choice TH injured?

Notch wrote:I'm saying it's the IRFUs decision- not Ulsters. And I'm saying that their decision to bring 30 players and not play any midweek games as opposed to 40 or 45 with midweek fixtures so as to not overly handicap the provinces should not be confused with the decision to select one player over another.

From this quote, it looked like Kidney had difficulty extending the size of the 30-man squad to bring some extra props and cover for Paul O'Connell.

Kidney explained his decision to enlarge the travelling party, saying: The extra players are cover. If you talk about props, there would be a small doubt about Mike Ross and you dont want to wake up the morning of a Test match with three fit props; any illness or injury then and youre going to be short (of adequate cover).
So, Ronan (Loughney), as you saw last night, plays both sides and in Mikes (McCarthy) case, there are three fit second rows. There might still be a doubt about Paul (OConnell). So, we have three hookers, so were alright there; five back-rows so were okay there and three scrum-halves, so we do the best we can. There are tour agreements but the union understood the need for the extra players.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I'm saying it's the IRFUs decision- not Ulsters. And I'm saying that their decision to bring 30 players and not play any midweek games as opposed to 40 or 45 with midweek fixtures so as to not overly handicap the provinces should not be confused with the decision to select one player over another.

From this quote, it looked like Kidney had difficulty extending the size of the 30-man squad to bring some extra props and cover for Paul O'Connell.

Kidney explained his decision to enlarge the travelling party, saying: The extra players are cover. If you talk about props, there would be a small doubt about Mike Ross and you dont want to wake up the morning of a Test match with three fit props; any illness or injury then and youre going to be short (of adequate cover).
So, Ronan (Loughney), as you saw last night, plays both sides and in Mikes (McCarthy) case, there are three fit second rows. There might still be a doubt about Paul (OConnell). So, we have three hookers, so were alright there; five back-rows so were okay there and three scrum-halves, so we do the best we can. There are tour agreements but the union understood the need for the extra players.

SinE, the tour agreements refer to the arrangements between NZ and Ireland - NZ will have agreed to pay tour expenses for 30 players, any extras are on Ireland's nickle. Nowt to do with the provinces.

There are rumours going around that indicate Thornley may be wrong;

Rumoured team which I doubt will actually be chosen is;

15. Kearney
14. McFadden
13. Earls
12. BOD
11. Zebo
10. Sexton
9. Murray
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Fitzpatrick (if Ross doesn't make it)
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy
6. SOB
7. POM
8. Heaslip


On Murray, I think people are being overly harsh on him. He has played very well in some games and was very good in the last game in played for Ireland. I think he can combine well with Sexton and once some tells him to just play his natural game he'll be fine.

rodders wrote:If a coach values physicality over quick service in a scrum half then he shouldn't be in the job.

Isaac Boss and Mike Phillips have improved their service markedly and Philips fits a specific gameplan that suits Wales... a game plan we can't play because of the lack of size or our 3/4's.

If Kidney thinks we can budgeon teams into submission with slow ball then he's in cloud cuckoo land.

+1

Sin you have to say that Murray has been quite poor for the majority of the season no? He is playing slow, head down rugby.

Reddan by contrast you would say has played well the majority of the season no?

Physical scrumhalves who can't pass the ball out quickly are a fad and an old one IMO. Genia, Weepu, Youngs are all the kinda scrumhalves that the modern game promotes and encourages

Farrelly thinks Tuohy and POM may make it

My money is on Thornleys team......

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I'm saying it's the IRFUs decision- not Ulsters. And I'm saying that their decision to bring 30 players and not play any midweek games as opposed to 40 or 45 with midweek fixtures so as to not overly handicap the provinces should not be confused with the decision to select one player over another.

From this quote, it looked like Kidney had difficulty extending the size of the 30-man squad to bring some extra props and cover for Paul O'Connell.

Kidney explained his decision to enlarge the travelling party, saying: The extra players are cover. If you talk about props, there would be a small doubt about Mike Ross and you dont want to wake up the morning of a Test match with three fit props; any illness or injury then and youre going to be short (of adequate cover).
So, Ronan (Loughney), as you saw last night, plays both sides and in Mikes (McCarthy) case, there are three fit second rows. There might still be a doubt about Paul (OConnell). So, we have three hookers, so were alright there; five back-rows so were okay there and three scrum-halves, so we do the best we can. There are tour agreements but the union understood the need for the extra players.

SinE, the tour agreements refer to the arrangements between NZ and Ireland - NZ will have agreed to pay tour expenses for 30 players, any extras are on Ireland's nickle. Nowt to do with the provinces.

I think the Union he is referring to is the IRFU (and the IRFU could have agreed with the provinces as it is an issue for them if they are missing a lot of player for preseason).

The request to keep Paddy Jackson home from the U20s went to an IRFU committee to decide.

Court is 4th choice. Macklin would start at 3 ahead of Court.

rodders wrote:My money is on Thornleys team......

Yeah I think it is probably the same. I was talking to one of my friends who is a journalist in New Zealand and trying to ask him which team is more likely but he hasn't a clue who half the Irish players are so he was a bit useless even though he did suggest that he thinks zebo is starting which would mean Earls is most likely in the centre but I'd be surprised if Trimble was left out.


Pete; I thought Reddan had a few dreadful games this season and there were a few patches when he was horrendous. If Murray plays like he did against France, he'll be fine. His pass is probably the best out of all Irish options, he just has to realise that he needs to get it away from the ruck much quicker.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

rodders wrote:If a coach values physicality over quick service in a scrum half then he shouldn't be in the job.

Isaac Boss and Mike Phillips have improved their service markedly and Philips fits a specific gameplan that suits Wales... a game plan we can't play because of the lack of size or our 3/4's.

If Kidney thinks we can budgeon teams into submission with slow ball then he's in cloud cuckoo land.

+1

Sin you have to say that Murray has been quite poor for the majority of the season no? He is playing slow, head down rugby.

Reddan by contrast you would say has played well the majority of the season no?

Physical scrumhalves who can't pass the ball out quickly are a fad and an old one IMO. Genia, Weepu, Youngs are all the kinda scrumhalves that the modern game promotes and encourages

Farrelly thinks Tuohy and POM may make it

Don't agree. I think you are being far too harsh on him. He started all pool games in the Heineken cup that Munster won in the Heineken Cup. Its just fashionable to criticise him now.

Fashionable.

Sin, do you ever think maybe the reason people are criticising him, is actually because he isn't playing well?

You keep mentioning games he played in where Munster won, but what about HIS performance? Yes we know, MOTM against the Scarlets. The majority of his performances have not been good enough though.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Court is 4th choice. Macklin would start at 3 ahead of Court.

Where Court is in the Ulster rankings doesn't matter when it comes to Ireland. He is our second best loosehead and the only player who could cover TH at all. He was the only option for the bench. Next year it won't matter with the 23 man squads.

He can't really cover TH though, that is surely clear now.

Sin é wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I'm saying it's the IRFUs decision- not Ulsters. And I'm saying that their decision to bring 30 players and not play any midweek games as opposed to 40 or 45 with midweek fixtures so as to not overly handicap the provinces should not be confused with the decision to select one player over another.

From this quote, it looked like Kidney had difficulty extending the size of the 30-man squad to bring some extra props and cover for Paul O'Connell.

Kidney explained his decision to enlarge the travelling party, saying: The extra players are cover. If you talk about props, there would be a small doubt about Mike Ross and you dont want to wake up the morning of a Test match with three fit props; any illness or injury then and youre going to be short (of adequate cover).
So, Ronan (Loughney), as you saw last night, plays both sides and in Mikes (McCarthy) case, there are three fit second rows. There might still be a doubt about Paul (OConnell). So, we have three hookers, so were alright there; five back-rows so were okay there and three scrum-halves, so we do the best we can. There are tour agreements but the union understood the need for the extra players.

SinE, the tour agreements refer to the arrangements between NZ and Ireland - NZ will have agreed to pay tour expenses for 30 players, any extras are on Ireland's nickle. Nowt to do with the provinces.

I think the Union he is referring to is the IRFU (and the IRFU could have agreed with the provinces as it is an issue for them if they are missing a lot of player for preseason).

The request to keep Paddy Jackson home from the U20s went to an IRFU committee to decide.

I agree with you the "union" was the IRFU, but more likely he was having to get IRFU sign off on the extra expense - the same happens regularly with NZ's AI tour squads, as the NH unions generally agree to fund a 30 man All Blacks touring squad, and the NZRU pays for anyone extra that the coach wants sent over.

U20s are a lot further down the priority list than the national squad, so I think my explanation is by far the more logical and likely.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He can't really cover TH though, that is surely clear now.

We won two penalties the previous week against Scotland with him at TH. He's not a world beater in the position but against most sides he can hold his own. Saying that, I hope we never have to use him there again.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Fashionable.

Sin, do you ever think maybe the reason people are criticising him, is actually because he isn't playing well?

You keep mentioning games he played in where Munster won, but what about HIS performance? Yes we know, MOTM against the Scarlets. The majority of his performances have not been good enough though.

He was playing fine until he got injured against France. His next game was against Ulster in the QF.

Hopefully, he has fully recovered from his injury now (he seems to have had a decent enough game against the Ba-Baas).

Is "fine" good enough though? His service has been excruciatingly slow, surely you can admit that?

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I'm saying it's the IRFUs decision- not Ulsters. And I'm saying that their decision to bring 30 players and not play any midweek games as opposed to 40 or 45 with midweek fixtures so as to not overly handicap the provinces should not be confused with the decision to select one player over another.

From this quote, it looked like Kidney had difficulty extending the size of the 30-man squad to bring some extra props and cover for Paul O'Connell.

Kidney explained his decision to enlarge the travelling party, saying: The extra players are cover. If you talk about props, there would be a small doubt about Mike Ross and you dont want to wake up the morning of a Test match with three fit props; any illness or injury then and youre going to be short (of adequate cover).
So, Ronan (Loughney), as you saw last night, plays both sides and in Mikes (McCarthy) case, there are three fit second rows. There might still be a doubt about Paul (OConnell). So, we have three hookers, so were alright there; five back-rows so were okay there and three scrum-halves, so we do the best we can. There are tour agreements but the union understood the need for the extra players.

SinE, the tour agreements refer to the arrangements between NZ and Ireland - NZ will have agreed to pay tour expenses for 30 players, any extras are on Ireland's nickle. Nowt to do with the provinces.

I think the Union he is referring to is the IRFU (and the IRFU could have agreed with the provinces as it is an issue for them if they are missing a lot of player for preseason).

The request to keep Paddy Jackson home from the U20s went to an IRFU committee to decide.

I agree with you the "union" was the IRFU, but more likely he was having to get IRFU sign off on the extra expense - the same happens regularly with NZ's AI tour squads, as the NH unions generally agree to fund a 30 man All Blacks touring squad, and the NZRU pays for anyone extra that the coach wants sent over.

U20s are a lot further down the priority list than the national squad, so I think my explanation is by far the more logical and likely.

The point is that Kidney's hands were fairly tied with the size of the party and its the IRFU committee who makes the decision. Ulster had to make a case to keep Paddy Jackson from travelling, and I'd imagine that there are similar issues with regard to the provinces wanting to have players who play key positions around for the start of the season - like having an outhalf ready to go (Madigan & Keatley not touring because Sexton & ROG will be back a month later than most of the squad).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is "fine" good enough though? His service has been excruciatingly slow, surely you can admit that?

The thing is that his pass is very good, and his problem of taking too long at rucks can be solved. If he plays how he played against France, we'll be grand. If he doesn't hopefully Reddan is brought on quickly.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is "fine" good enough though? His service has been excruciatingly slow, surely you can admit that?

I don't think his service has been slow at provincial level. The main issue is that Reddan is not a pretty sight when his pack is going backwards.

valjester wrote:

rodders wrote:My money is on Thornleys team......

Yeah I think it is probably the same. I was talking to one of my friends who is a journalist in New Zealand and trying to ask him which team is more likely but he hasn't a clue who half the Irish players are so he was a bit useless even though he did suggest that he thinks zebo is starting which would mean Earls is most likely in the centre but I'd be surprised if Trimble was left out.


Pete; I thought Reddan had a few dreadful games this season and there were a few patches when he was horrendous. If Murray plays like he did against France, he'll be fine. His pass is probably the best out of all Irish options, he just has to realise that he needs to get it away from the ruck much quicker.

In what games would you consider Reddan played dreadfully!? Find that very strange.

I fully agree that Murray has the best pass Val, I think we all saw that last year and I don't think it has got any worse, that being said, he takes steps before he passes now, he burys his head into the belly of a pillar defender now, he makes poorer decisions and it takes him longer to make decisions. He is still a great passer (no Stringer but good) it's just the other elements have been really poor.

Sin-
Again the highlights are really limiting but from what I saw of Murray he was poor and some others said that of him too when the footage came out. For Zebo's try he took a lot of steps before the pass from the maul. Same with one of Gilroy's.

Again you can only learn so much from highlights.

To make myself clear I think:
Murray has the raw materials to be our best scrumhalf but I think the top two inches have been severly missing since the World Cup warm ups and some of that probably comes from coaching.

It's nothing to do with fashion re: Murray but the type of scrumhalf he has started playing in the mould of is not one that will be hugely successful in the modern game

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

In what games would you consider Reddan played dreadfully!? Find that very strange.

I fully agree that Murray has the best pass Val, I think we all saw that last year and I don't think it has got any worse, that being said, he takes steps before he passes now, he burys his head into the belly of a pillar defender now, he makes poorer decisions and it takes him longer to make decisions. He is still a great passer (no Stringer but good) it's just the other elements have been really poor.


To make myself clear I think:
Murray has the raw materials to be our best scrumhalf but I think the top two inches have been severly missing since the World Cup warm ups and some of that probably comes from coaching.

It's nothing to do with fashion re: Murray but the type of scrumhalf he has started playing in the mould of is not one that will be hugely successful in the modern game

A few games around January. I've admitted before that I don't rate Reddan but he definitely had a few bad games this year but overall he has been playing very well. Stringer's passing has gone to bits in the last few years. Its still very fast but unfortunately the accurracy is long gone.

I think that Murray has the intelligence to play and has shown that when allowed but I feel like the Munster system has battered him down a bit and dented his confidence. In some ways I feel McGahan was trying to get him to play like TOL and he's worried if he doesn't do that he'll be dropped.

I'd be hopeful that he will recover with the change in coaching down there.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is "fine" good enough though? His service has been excruciatingly slow, surely you can admit that?

I don't think his service has been slow at provincial level. The main issue is that Reddan is not a pretty sight when his pack is going backwards.

His service has been awful at provincial level.... thought he was going to be lynched by his own fans after the HEC QF...... ... Munsters nose dive in form post xmas is very much down to Murray and ROG's poor form....Donal Lenihan might have tried to pull the wool over people eyes by giving him a few motm awards here and there in the RABO but the world can see how slow Murrays service has been this year and the impact its had on Munster and Irelands attacking play.

Redden Ospreys - nuff said.

Back to the point on provincial style, form and international. Wales (and the Ospreys) have beaten an Irish team three times on the bounce. Now I wonder is it anything to do with nullifying things at source. The Welsh backrow has spanked ours on all occassions as apparently the Ospreys did against Leinster. The backs except for Nacewa (not Irish) and Kearney were poor. The ball the backs were getting was not go forward ball and both Sexton, Redden struggled with this (almost sounds like an Irish match report)

I wonder should the coach be sacked for losing three times to a Welsh team??

Funny how it is now Kidneys fault for the provinces having too many non irish props.

DOD wrote: Redden Ospreys - nuff said.

Murray Ulster - nuff said.

We can all pick out one game.

DOD wrote: Funny how it is now Kidneys fault for the provinces having too many non irish props.

The numbers are not his fault but the failure to give any game time to the alternatives to Ross, other than Buckley and Tom Court who is a LH is his fault.

Fitzpatrick, Hagan, Andress, Loughney have not played 1 second of rugby of International rugby between them.
With Buckley falling short that means our TH selection is based upon praying Ross is fit.

I post here some weeks ago that we were staring into an abyss if Ross got injured. As this looks like being the case and is compounded by Court being injured it has come to pass.

The situation was always going to be a bad one - the total failure to plan for injuries has made it worse than it need be - that is down to Kidney.

DOD wrote:Redden Ospreys - nuff said.

Back to the point on provincial style, form and international. Wales (and the Ospreys) have beaten an Irish team three times on the bounce. Now I wonder is it anything to do with nullifying things at source. The Welsh backrow has spanked ours on all occassions as apparently the Ospreys did against Leinster. The backs except for Nacewa (not Irish) and Kearney were poor. The ball the backs were getting was not go forward ball and both Sexton, Redden struggled with this (almost sounds like an Irish match report)

I wonder should the coach be sacked for losing three times to a Welsh team??

Funny how it is now Kidneys fault for the provinces having too many non irish props.

I don't think the Welsh backrow has spanked ours at all.... where the Welsh have been superior is the scrum and 3/4 line...and most of all the fact that they have an effective gameplan and the players to deliver it where as we don't.

That is down to Kidney I'm afraid.

The only welsh back row to cause us problems so far is Warburton, who can be a nuisance. We have Ferris and O'Brien doing everything at the minute. We don't have any big backs to carry the ball and make ground, while Wales have 5 including their scrum half.

Wrong Rodders, they controlled the game and stopped us from getting any momentum and go forward ball in all games. They slow our ball down and the rush defence they employ with this is highly effective. Wales did it, the Ospreys did it against Leinster (three times each). What it shows is that the effectiveness of our 9,10,12,13 access in being creative is poor when faced with that type of play.

We try to play the same way but again it comes down to the fact that at international level the margins are a lot different than HC.

The welsh are always on the front foot against us though, so we always have to operate on slow ball. Not to mention the fact Ireland are generally slow at the breakdown without any other interferences. The likes of Roberts and North just tear us to shreds, and our backs can't deal with the physicality. Our back row can't always be there to babysit, so they get nullified. The welsh back row have backs to support them who are the same size if not bigger.

Also, you cannot seriously suggest that the Ospreys back row outplayed Leinster. Leinster were on the front foot for the majority of the game, and played some beautiful rugby. It was their game to lose, and they lost it in the last 5 minutes or so. I guess winning a HC the week before doesn't help recovery..

In fact Ireland could be the only team in world rugby atm without a big physical centre. SBW/Nonu, Fourie/Steyn, Tuilagi, Roberts/Davies, Rougerie etc. We need someone to fulfil that role IMO. All these centre combinations we talk about are too lightweight.

valjester wrote:

rodders wrote:My money is on Thornleys team......

Yeah I think it is probably the same. I was talking to one of my friends who is a journalist in New Zealand and trying to ask him which team is more likely but he hasn't a clue who half the Irish players are so he was a bit useless even though he did suggest that he thinks zebo is starting which would mean Earls is most likely in the centre but I'd be surprised if Trimble was left out.

I would be really very pleased if we started with Zebo and moved Earls to centre. I have some reservations about Zebos all round game, but feic it. No denying he's got the talent and a big future ahead of him and most of all it would mean we are trying something new. I would be less impressed if it was at the expense of either Earls or Trimble and we kept the centres the same. It's the centres I want to see changed. They just haven't been working for us.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:In fact Ireland could be the only team in world rugby atm without a big physical centre. SBW/Nonu, Fourie/Steyn, Tuilagi, Roberts/Davies, Rougerie etc. We need someone to fulfil that role IMO. All these centre combinations we talk about are too lightweight.

Australia.

Our best centres are lightweight. The precious few bruiser types we have aren't international class, so we need to find a way to get the best out of our players without a heavyweight strike runner at 12 or 13. It's certainly possible but it would require a different mindset in attack.

Ashley Cooper is a pretty strong runner Notch. And we do have Spence, who I think needs to be developed ASAP.

DOD wrote:Wrong Rodders, they controlled the game and stopped us from getting any momentum and go forward ball in all games. They slow our ball down and the rush defence they employ with this is highly effective. Wales did it, the Ospreys did it against Leinster (three times each). What it shows is that the effectiveness of our 9,10,12,13 access in being creative is poor when faced with that type of play.

We try to play the same way but again it comes down to the fact that at international level the margins are a lot different than HC.

Ospreys only played leinster's first team once and they won by 1 point when we had 2 players yellow carded...hardly something to really worrie about as a leinster fan.

Spence will be developed- if he proves himself good enough to make Ulsters first team. Wallace and Cave have kept him out of it on merit.

Not really - Spence has played really well his last few games at 13. On merit would suggest he has played 13 a lot and Cave has been better. Unfortunately he was played out of position for half the season and Cave walked back into the team. He needs more opportunities.

He'll be given them and rightly so, but he has plenty to prove before he becomes an international.

DOD wrote:Wrong Rodders, they controlled the game and stopped us from getting any momentum and go forward ball in all games. They slow our ball down and the rush defence they employ with this is highly effective. Wales did it, the Ospreys did it against Leinster (three times each). What it shows is that the effectiveness of our 9,10,12,13 access in being creative is poor when faced with that type of play.

DOD I don't necessarily disagree with this but its a chicken and egg situation, we're not getting quick ball because we aren't going forward and we aren't going forward because we don't have quick ball.

Our 8-12 axis look uncreative because they are always up against a set defence, the quick service isn't coming from Murray, he's delaying the pass and then allowing the opposition defence to reset so your back to trucking it up or spinning wide and going side ways.

It's not all Murrays fault, the midfield dynamics haven't been right and Sexton has been too deep but the whole attacking gameplan has just been negative and predictable so its no wonder out back row didn't look the best in some of those games.

Steve Hansen is handing out a few debuts; will Kidney do the same?

http://www.allblacks.com/news/19574/Savea-Smith-and-Retallick-to-make-debut-against-Ireland

The team is as follows: (with Test caps in brackets. * denotes a new cap)

Starting XV:

1. Tony Woodcock (83)
2. Andrew Hore (62)
3. Owen Franks (31)
4. Brodie Retallick *
5. Samuel Whitelock (25)
6. Victor Vito (13)
7. Richie McCaw - captain (103)
8. Kieran Read (36)
9. Aaron Smith *
10. Daniel Carter (85)
11. Julian Savea *
12. Sonny Bill Williams (14)
13. Conrad Smith (55)
14. Zac Guildford (8)
15. Israel Dagg (12)

Reserves:

16. Hikawera Elliot (2)
17. Ben Franks (15)
18. Ali Williams (73)
19. Adam Thomson (24)
20. Piri Weepu (56)
21. Aaron Cruden (9)
22. Ben Smith (2)

Ireland by 6

Savea is some player.. If you think North is powerful, watch this guy.

That's a strong NZ team still - NZ by 10 - 20pts.

wales606 wrote:That's a strong NZ team still - NZ by 10 - 20pts.

At least mate. That guy Savea will cause us serious harm.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

wales606 wrote:That's a strong NZ team still - NZ by 10 - 20pts.

At least mate. That guy Savea will cause us serious harm.

I will wait for the Ireland team.

Without Ross, it could be 20 - 30