Warren Gatland will limit the number of English players in his Lions squad

First topic message reminder :

If this headline is true then Gatland should be sacked as he has shown himself unfit for the job. Players should be picked on form irrespective of country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/9865151/Warren-Gatland-will-limit-the-number-of-English-players-in-his-Lions-squad-to-avoid-pressure.html

does gatland play forign based welsh?

The Great Aukster wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Interesting but people like Sheridan and Wilko are in the mix and you don't have to be even playing international rugby to be selected according to Gatland, however his latest retreat in the Telegraph suggest that position might also have changed.

That implies that the best players aren't always picked then. Sheridan and Wilkinson aren't even on the England bench, so is Gatland admitting that the Lions are just a collection of his choice rather than the de facto "best" players available.

Gatland's criteria is that they can be playing non international rugby if they are on form in a side performing well...Sheridan is keeping Gethin out and Wilko is playing excellent rugby. Because a player i snot in contention for their national side is not an indicator of their standard but of the side's vision...Sherry and Wilko aren't in the camp because they are long in the tooth and not part of Plan 2015.

The Great Aukster wrote:...That implies that the best players aren't always picked then...

It doesn't imply that. Leaving aside the scrum half debate. if the second best player for a national team also happens to be the second best player in the Home Nations, then not considering him simply because he doesn't start would be odd.

Plenty of non-starters tour. Ian Hunter went to NZ in 1993 despite being kept out of that year's Five Nations side by the Underwoods, who also toured.

In truth, though, Gatland isn't just going to rank players in every position and choose the names at the top. He'll be thinking about whether the individuals match the game plan he has in mind, and whether they can be good squad men.

Rugby Fan wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:...That implies that the best players aren't always picked then...

It doesn't imply that. Leaving aside the scrum half debate. if the second best player for a national team also happens to be the second best player in the Home Nations, then not considering him simply because he doesn't start would be odd.

Plenty of non-starters tour. Ian Hunter went to NZ in 1993 despite being kept out of that year's Five Nations side by the Underwoods, who also toured.

In truth, though, Gatland isn't just going to rank players in every position and choose the names at the top. He'll be thinking about whether the individuals match the game plan he has in mind, and whether they can be good squad men.

The Great Aukster wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Interesting but people like Sheridan and Wilko are in the mix and you don't have to be even playing international rugby to be selected according to Gatland, however his latest retreat in the Telegraph suggest that position might also have changed.

That implies that the best players aren't always picked then. Sheridan and Wilkinson aren't even on the England bench, so is Gatland admitting that the Lions are just a collection of his choice rather than the de facto "best" players available.

They are both retired, and Lancaster got his job by specifically stating he wouldnt pick old players. Nick Easter has been the stand out number 8 in the Jeff for the past year, he doesnt get a look in with England. Sheridan and Wilko are both formally retired from internationals but wiould almost certainly make themselves available for a Lions tour. gareth Delve isnt going to get picked for Wales whilst hes on Aussie time, but as a Lion? If he were good enough why not?
The demands on a permanent national team are far different to those on a once every 4 years scratch side, even without considering differences in opinion between coaches and differences in tactics.

mystiroakey wrote:does gatland play forign based welsh?

Hook and Byrne back in the camp and Gethin, so yes he does. But Wales know that because of the wages players have to go abroad as they have limited earning potential and career span....the problem for Wales is at strategic level and regional funding and I am afraid football is affecting the youth game

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Interesting but people like Sheridan and Wilko are in the mix and you don't have to be even playing international rugby to be selected according to Gatland, however his latest retreat in the Telegraph suggest that position might also have changed.

That implies that the best players aren't always picked then. Sheridan and Wilkinson aren't even on the England bench, so is Gatland admitting that the Lions are just a collection of his choice rather than the de facto "best" players available.

They are both retired, and Lancaster got his job by specifically stating he wouldnt pick old players. Nick Easter has been the stand out number 8 in the Jeff for the past year, he doesnt get a look in with England. Sheridan and Wilko are both formally retired from internationals but wiould almost certainly make themselves available for a Lions tour. gareth Delve isnt going to get picked for Wales whilst hes on Aussie time, but as a Lion? If he were good enough why not?
The demands on a permanent national team are far different to those on a once every 4 years scratch side, even without considering differences in opinion between coaches and differences in tactics.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a certain Shane Williams pop in from Japan either

100%beefy wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:does gatland play forign based welsh?

Hook and Byrne back in the camp and Gethin, so yes he does. But Wales know that because of the wages players have to go abroad as they have limited earning potential and career span....the problem for Wales is at strategic level and regional funding and I am afraid football is affecting the youth game

ta

Rugby Fan wrote:In truth, though, Gatland isn't just going to rank players in every position and choose the names at the top. He'll be thinking about whether the individuals match the game plan he has in mind, and whether they can be good squad men.

In short - not the best players.

Gatland has to try to pick the best team, which may not include the best players. This is at odds with the players view of the Lions who see selection as self-aggrandisment and affirmation that they are the best in their position. In fact they are only the best option for a particular coaches idea of how to play the game, coloured with all his biased thinking and how well he actually knows the players.

It is hard enough to make relative judgements between players playing in the same match but if players are selected who aren't even involved in the 6N, then it is obvious that the coach is bringing irrationality into his selection process and picking on reputation rather than current proof.

I have no problem with Gatland picking whomever he chooses, but lets not kid ourselves that the Lions consist of the "best" current players.

That's very true. The pack you would pick to play Australia away is bound to be different to New Zealand home for instance.

Well considering the lions is a showpiece fixture. I think coaches should be bound to put the best on show.. It's exhibition stuff..

The Great Aukster wrote:...Gatland has to try to pick the best team, which may not include the best players...

We are in agreement there. However, I think you have some odd grounds for deciding someone isn't a top player. As well as ruling anyone not starting for his national team, it looks like if someone isn't playing international rugby, then you believe it would be irrational to consider them.

It would surely be less meritocratic not to consider them. To make the point clearer, have a look at a non-Lions example. Nick Evans pays no international rugby. By your reckoning, that means he can't be regarded as better than any flyhalf in the current All Black squad. Any manager who thought about selecting him for a team ahead of a current starting international would be ignoring the formbook. I don't think there are many who would agree with you on either count.

Sir Clive said he wouldnt consider picking players with beards ( yes Dan Cole). Theres some funny reasons why coaches pick people.

Simply patronising someone and feeling sorry for the scots (Visser/Maitland/Hines?) shouldnt be one of the top criteria

RubyGuby wrote:He could limit the english players and take these instead: Tuilangi, Barritt, Waldrom, Botha, Vunipolo, Hartley and Corbisiero

Could you put together a reasonable Lions teams with players not born on the B&I islands ?

No doubt that a better team is available but off the top of my head.

01 Alex Cobisiero
02 Dylan Hartley
03 ?
04 Nathan Hines
05 Mouritz Botha
06 David Denton
07 ?
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 ?
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Tim Visser
12 Bradley Barritt
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Sean Maitland
15 ?

red_stag wrote:No doubt that a better team is available but off the top of my head.

01 Alex Cobisiero
02 Dylan Hartley
03 ?
04 Nathan Hines
05 Mouritz Botha
06 David Denton
07 ?
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 ?
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Tim Visser
12 Bradley Barritt
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Sean Maitland
15 ?

Nerd alert

DOD wrote:

red_stag wrote:No doubt that a better team is available but off the top of my head.

01 Alex Cobisiero
02 Dylan Hartley
03 ?
04 Nathan Hines
05 Mouritz Botha
06 David Denton
07 ?
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 ?
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Tim Visser
12 Bradley Barritt
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Sean Maitland
15 ?

Nerd alert

Thanks for announcing your arrival pal

red_stag wrote:

DOD wrote:

red_stag wrote:No doubt that a better team is available but off the top of my head.

01 Alex Cobisiero
02 Dylan Hartley
03 ?
04 Nathan Hines
05 Mouritz Botha
06 David Denton
07 ?
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 ?
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Tim Visser
12 Bradley Barritt
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Sean Maitland
15 ?

Nerd alert

Thanks for announcing your arrival pal

No problemo

3 Tom Court
7 Andries Prestorius
9 Isaac Boss
15 there must be a Scotsman.

Nick Abendanon

“01 Alex Cobisiero
02 Dylan Hartley
03 Tom Court
04 Nathan Hines
05 Mouritz Botha
06 David Denton
07 Andries Prestorius
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 Isaac Boss
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Tim Visser
12 Bradley Barritt
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Sean Maitland
15 Nick Abendanon”

Inspired. I’d pay serious money to see that team travel.

but would it be called the lions or just the all ( at some time ) stars???

Rugby Fan wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:...Gatland has to try to pick the best team, which may not include the best players...

We are in agreement there. However, I think you have some odd grounds for deciding someone isn't a top player. As well as ruling anyone not starting for his national team, it looks like if someone isn't playing international rugby, then you believe it would be irrational to consider them.

It would surely be less meritocratic not to consider them. To make the point clearer, have a look at a non-Lions example. Nick Evans pays no international rugby. By your reckoning, that means he can't be regarded as better than any flyhalf in the current All Black squad. Any manager who thought about selecting him for a team ahead of a current starting international would be ignoring the formbook. I don't think there are many who would agree with you on either count.

If a coach doesn't have a rationale to compare players then by definition his selection of one over another is irrational. The Lions coach can't see how players train with each other before selection so he is in the dark there. If he doesn't have head to head competitive encounters then again how can he rationally say Player A is better than Player B.


WRT Nick Evans I agree that he can't be rationally considered to be any better (or worse) than any other AB flyhalf. How could he be when he doesn't play in the same competitions? So compare the competitions then - which is better? Selecting him to say play for the ABs totally ignores the form book as he is playing under totally different conditions and against totally different opposition.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:“01 Alex Cobisiero
02 Dylan Hartley
03 Tom Court
04 Nathan Hines
05 Mouritz Botha
06 David Denton
07 Andries Prestorius
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 Isaac Boss
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Tim Visser
12 Bradley Barritt
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Sean Maitland
15 Nick Abendanon”

Inspired. I’d pay serious money to see that team travel.

Flip they'd be all day getting that crowd through passport control.

Its ok now, Lancaster has put Gatland straight on this one:

Lancaster met Gatland on Tuesday and is not concerned about the situation. "I came away reassured that England players will be picked on merit and rightly so," he told BBC Radio 5 live.

i hope SL gave him a slap and all

I think he stamped on him, but got away with it.

gregortree wrote:Its ok now, Lancaster has put Gatland straight on this one:

Lancaster met Gatland on Tuesday and is not concerned about the situation. "I came away reassured that England players will be picked on merit and rightly so," he told BBC Radio 5 live.

Poor old Stuart he just doesn't know when Gats is engaged in a wind up. England are playing well as a unit but unless he picks them on mass, individually many are not actually the best of breed in their positions. This has nothing to do with bias. If he picks the "best players" English fans may not get the representation they feel they deserve. Then they will know how we felt in 2005 when SCW screwed us.

Welsh GSers English Lions coach - Loads of past it out of form English players
English side potential GSers Welsh Lions coach SURELY NOT

Nervous?

A bit for the sake of the Lions if that happens

Poor old Clive got his maths in a muddle back in 2005 - he actually picked from the England that finished 4th in the 6N'05 a few months earlier, he could have picked from the Wales that finished 5th in the 6N'06 a few months later. Or maybe stuck with the Irish.

Mind you it would be quite a feat to pick a Lion's team that won't beat the Oz - let's see if Gats can do it.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Poor old Clive got his maths in a muddle back in 2005 - he actually picked from the England that finished 4th in the 6N'05 a few months earlier, he could have picked from the Wales that finished 5th in the 6N'06 a few months later. Or maybe stuck with the Irish.

Mind you it would be quite a feat to pick a Lion's team that won't beat the Oz - let's see if Gats can do it.

Cheeky. Come on. Someone who spends as much time on Wikipedia as I suspect you do should know that the Welsh were ravaged by injury in 06 effectively fielding a 2nd/3rd choice team. Clive was (and is) a twonk. He is very organised and could sell sand to an Arab but as a Rugby Coach he would make a great manager at PoundStretcher. The only good thing about the 05 tour was that it exposed Woodward for the clueless naughty naughty boy he is.

Not a fan you might have gathered

dragon

Thats a bit harsh, SCW was a decent coach who was one of the first to impliment Baly'is LTAD model into the professional era, added to England actually buying into professionalism they were head and shoulders ahead of everyone else.

Sadly without that trick up his sleeve 2 years after the world cup he reverted to what he knew, and it didn't go well.

dragonbreath wrote:Nervous?

Nervous that Fatland might pick more people other than Andy Foode and/or Cips. Seeing as he doesn't want too many English, he might as well send mssrs. Farrell & Rowntree back to HQ for our real summer tour as opposed to this 4 yearly out-dated embarrassment.

England only have to open up their team every four years, and by doing so it fulfills all wannabee charioteers lifelong dreams. Who can deny them that?

Campeses in on the act now...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/8308131/Campese-declares-Everyone-hates-the-Poms

Looking forward to this tour alright...just hope enough top Oz players remain injury free from what is going to be a very tough super xv

You've got to love Campo. He really is like a cartoon character!

You always know England are doing ok when Campo sticks his oar in. I'd take it as a compliment.

So the fuel added by gatland has already started whether he picks English or not..

Guy is a class a twonk

There is a common PR trick.......when you want to kill a story, leak a rumour in advance of the real story and let the press tear it apart as rumour, then when the real story is revealed the press are less interested in what is not a real scoop.

If Gatland, who is no media manager, is doing the usual stir - perhaps to wind up the English and upset their Slam ambitions for his Welsh mates - then I wouldn't be surprised

I also won't be surprised when few Englishmen tour, I just hope that he can justify selections on from and experience not national origin

Rubbish beefy..

mystiroakey wrote:Rubbish beefy..

what is rubbish?

Maybe Gatland is trying to psyche up the England players to even greater heights by making them think English spots will be only a few.
That works? Eh mates?

Your name - should be 100%horsey or 100%pony

I just wish England had the balls to withdraw from the lions..

It would off course kill the lions full stop because no one is gonna wanna watch a Scotland Ireland Wales team anyway... The media is what keeps it going.. Without the English what is the lions?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Your name - should be 100%horsey or 100%pony

Did you think that up all on your own

Or 79%Beefy.

1%sheepy

Beefy it was just a simple straight forward comment from gatland.. He is just a plank.. No games being played

Pony Express, or Burger King as its now known...

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Your name - should be 100%horsey or 100%pony

who? or is it whom?

mystiroakey wrote:I just wish England had the balls to withdraw from the lions..

It would off course kill the lions full stop because no one is gonna wanna watch a Scotland Ireland Wales team anyway... The media is what keeps it going.. Without the English what is the lions?

Why on earth would England withdraw from the Lions? And you are very wrong anyway, the only Lions run by an Englishman in recent history was frankly the worst one I can remember...I have no doubt a Celtic and Irish Lions would be very popular.....what perhaps you don't realise is that the Lions is much more popular in SA, NZ and Aus than at home