HEC Semi-Final Toulon v Munster, Stade Velodrome, Marseille

First topic message reminder :

KO 16.30 (local time; 15.30 YTC) Sunday April 27th.  Yet another Day of Destiny for Munster Rugby.

So far the only participants we know for definite are
Referee:  Wayne Barnes

ARs:  JP Doyle; Luke Pearce

TMO: Graham Hughes.

All the officials are from England.

Friday 25th - edited with team announcements.

Toulon
Delon Armitage;
Drew Mitchell, Mathieu Bastareaud, Matt Giteau, Bryan Habana;
Jonny Wilkinson (c), Sebastien Tillous-Borde;
Xavier Chiocci, Craig Burden, Carl Hayman,
Danie Rossouw, Jocelino Suta,
Juan Smith, Juan Fernandez Lobbe, Steffon Armitage.
Remplaçants : Jean-Charles Orioli, Alexandre Menini, Martin Castrogiovanni, Virgile Bruni, David Smith, Maxime Mermoz, Michael Claassens, Konstantine Mikautadze.

Munster
Felix Jones;
Keith Earls, Casey Laulala, James Downey, Simon Zebo;
Ian Keatley, Conor Murray;
Dave Kilcoyne, Damien Varley Capt., BJ Botha;
Dave Foley, Paul O'Connell;
CJ Stander, Sean Dougall, James Coughlan.
Replacements: Duncan Casey, James Cronin, John Ryan, Donncha O'Callaghan, Tommy O'Donnell, Duncan Williams, JJ Hanrahan, Denis Hurley.

As my stomach is already churning when I think of Sunday, I thought I would start the ball rolling on the topic.

Munster Abú

Nachos Jones wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I can understand why they went for the corner five points down and down to 14 men...but we should have taken the three points....bad decision

I don't know, at the time I thought it was the right decision, Toulon were rattled and I honestly thought that Munster might push over. I value the points argument but thought the decision was correct at the time.

Swings and roundabouts I suppose. Not the losing of the game for sure...that happened in the first half.

geoff998rugby wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Wonder how many will be at the final...10 man and a dog by the look of things yesterday.

Other than the 6000 tickets for the finalist nearly all tickets sold I believe so 50,000+ guaranteed

I'll certainly be trying to get hold of a few - sounds like I may need to rush...

How unlucky was it that the ball fell off the tee on Keatley? When does that ever happen on a nice day...Everything seemed to go Toulon's way.

geoff998rugby wrote:Excellent effort from Munster but poor restarts, playing too much in their own half and a lack of tactical kicking cost Munster badly.

Bang on right there, needed to keep Toulon pinned back more.

ME-109 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Wonder how many will be at the final...10 man and a dog by the look of things yesterday.

Other than the 6000 tickets for the finalist nearly all tickets sold I believe so 50,000+ guaranteed

Will they bother...50000 thats a poor attendance for the final

Not looking forward to the final then? Should be a cracking game

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How unlucky was it that the ball fell off the tee on Keatley? When does that ever happen on a nice day...Everything seemed to go Toulon's way.

It happened against Toulouse as well - and he missed that kick too.

ME-109 wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I can understand why they went for the corner five points down and down to 14 men...but we should have taken the three points....bad decision

I don't know, at the time I thought it was the right decision, Toulon were rattled and I honestly thought that Munster might push over. I value the points argument but thought the decision was correct at the time.

Swings and roundabouts I suppose. Not the losing of the game for sure...that happened in the first half.

The first half discipline was amazingly poor. I said at half time that was where they missed POM, his onfield leadership would never allowed for that sort of indiscipline.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How unlucky was it that the ball fell off the tee on Keatley? When does that ever happen on a nice day...Everything seemed to go Toulon's way.

Is that a joke? What about Zebos try?

Toulon were the superior team no amount of luck influenced the result today.

It wasn't just POM's on-field leadership that was missed - his all round play especially at the breakdown.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How unlucky was it that the ball fell off the tee on Keatley? When does that ever happen on a nice day...Everything seemed to go Toulon's way.

Is that a joke? What about Zebos try?

Toulon were the superior team no amount of luck influenced the result today.

It was great thanks..

What about Zebo's try? Munster would have been well worth the win if they had won the game... I don't think either totally dominated.

Munster messed it up in the first half. They conceded too many calamitous scores. Coughlans knock on, Zebo being ahead of the kicker, Stander losing possession to Giteau etc. The scrum penalties were also costly in the first half.

KiaRose wrote:It wasn't just POM's on-field leadership that was missed - his all round play especially at the breakdown.

I agree with this but his leadership was clearly missing above all else.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How unlucky was it that the ball fell off the tee on Keatley? When does that ever happen on a nice day...Everything seemed to go Toulon's way.

I wouldn't say so at all. Lobbe was very unlucky to get the yellow and Zebo's try should have at least been checked. Munster did well to stay in the game but Toulon should have put them to bed by 50 minutes. Toulon will have to be more clinical against Sarries.

Think TOD should have started. Doughall was very quiet.

Nachos Jones wrote:

KiaRose wrote:It wasn't just POM's on-field leadership that was missed - his all round play especially at the breakdown.

I agree with this but his leadership was clearly missing above all else.

We needed the manic aggression as well and some big hits POC I think was good but needed backup. In fairness to CJ he did well but Coughlan was outstanding.

ME-109 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:Simon Zebo should have done enough to force his way back into the Ireland 23 after that performance.

He needs to be consistent first - he was awful against Glasgow

He made one mistake. That doesnt count as awful and the team as a whole werent great. Trimble was awful against Glasgow are you saying he should be dropped?

The team were awful against Glasgow don't think Trimble was.

The difference is Zebo has been in and out all season whereas Trimble has been excellent - which is why he may well win the Irish player of the year.
The reality is Zebo is, at best, 4th in the pecking order.
He needs a number of stand out games to go up that pecking order - one is start but only that.
If selected that starts with the summer tour

Golden wrote:Think TOD should have started. Doughall was very quiet.

Really - I thought Dougall was excellent the stand out Munster player at the breakdown in the first half

geoff998rugby wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:Simon Zebo should have done enough to force his way back into the Ireland 23 after that performance.

He needs to be consistent first - he was awful against Glasgow

He made one mistake. That doesnt count as awful and the team as a whole werent great. Trimble was awful against Glasgow are you saying he should be dropped?

The team were awful against Glasgow don't think Trimble was.

The difference is Zebo has been in and out all season whereas Trimble has been excellent - which is why he may well win the Irish player of the year.
The reality is Zebo is, at best, 4th in the pecking order.
He needs a number of stand out games to go up that pecking order - one is start but only that.
If selected that starts with the summer tour  

Thats complete sh.t Geoff to be honest. Zebo has been excellent since returning from injury, he made one mistake against Glasgow but Trimble played like pants and made multiple mistakes and you point out the one mistake for Zebo. He had an excelent game today, against Toulouse etc. But hey if you like average thats your prerogative.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Golden wrote:Think TOD should have started. Doughall was very quiet.

Really - I thought Dougall was excellent the stand out Munster player at the breakdown in the first half

Just to let you know Geoff...Zebo made as many tackles as Dougall today (who was ok but nothing special)

geoff998rugby wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:Simon Zebo should have done enough to force his way back into the Ireland 23 after that performance.

He needs to be consistent first - he was awful against Glasgow

He made one mistake. That doesnt count as awful and the team as a whole werent great. Trimble was awful against Glasgow are you saying he should be dropped?

The team were awful against Glasgow don't think Trimble was.

The difference is Zebo has been in and out all season whereas Trimble has been excellent - which is why he may well win the Irish player of the year.
The reality is Zebo is, at best, 4th in the pecking order.
He needs a number of stand out games to go up that pecking order - one is start but only that.
If selected that starts with the summer tour  

In fairness to Zebo, he has had a few injuries.

Congratulations Toulon, well done.

geoff998rugby wrote:

The team were awful against Glasgow don't think Trimble was.

The difference is Zebo has been in and out all season whereas Trimble has been excellent - which is why he may well win the Irish player of the year.
The reality is Zebo is, at best, 4th in the pecking order.
He needs a number of stand out games to go up that pecking order - one is start but only that.
If selected that starts with the summer tour  

Sorry Geoff but that is really incorrect. Zebo is the best winger Ireland have right now, excellent attack and defence. I am not sure what more he has to prove to be honest.

My view is the same as Joe Schmidt Trimble 1, Zebo 4
I think his judgement is good.  

You don't win the player of the year by being average - Trimble has not been average.

Zebo had an excellent game today but one game does not propel you back into the Irish side, consistency does.
Zebo needs to get back onto Schmidts radar as he is not there at the moment.

Nachos Jones wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

The team were awful against Glasgow don't think Trimble was.

The difference is Zebo has been in and out all season whereas Trimble has been excellent - which is why he may well win the Irish player of the year.
The reality is Zebo is, at best, 4th in the pecking order.
He needs a number of stand out games to go up that pecking order - one is start but only that.
If selected that starts with the summer tour  

Sorry Geoff but that is really incorrect. Zebo is the best winger Ireland have right now, excellent attack and defence. I am not sure what more he has to prove to be honest.

Joe Schmidt doesn't agree with you

I think Sin e comment is a fair point.
Look I think Zebo is an excellent player but whether you agree with it or not he is not top of Schmidt list.
I do hope he goes on tour and proves himself

geoff998rugby wrote:My view is the same as Joe Schmidt Trimble 1, Zebo 4
I think his judgement is good.  

You don't win the player of the year by being average - Trimble has not been average.

Zebo had an excellent game today but one game does not propel you back into the Irish side, consistency does.
Zebo needs to get back onto Schmidts radar as he is not there at the moment.  

Average...

geoff998rugby wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

The team were awful against Glasgow don't think Trimble was.

The difference is Zebo has been in and out all season whereas Trimble has been excellent - which is why he may well win the Irish player of the year.
The reality is Zebo is, at best, 4th in the pecking order.
He needs a number of stand out games to go up that pecking order - one is start but only that.
If selected that starts with the summer tour  

Sorry Geoff but that is really incorrect. Zebo is the best winger Ireland have right now, excellent attack and defence. I am not sure what more he has to prove to be honest.

Joe Schmidt doesn't agree with you

I don't need Schmidt to form my opinions, I watch rugby and form my own.

Nachos Jones wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

The team were awful against Glasgow don't think Trimble was.

The difference is Zebo has been in and out all season whereas Trimble has been excellent - which is why he may well win the Irish player of the year.
The reality is Zebo is, at best, 4th in the pecking order.
He needs a number of stand out games to go up that pecking order - one is start but only that.
If selected that starts with the summer tour  

Sorry Geoff but that is really incorrect. Zebo is the best winger Ireland have right now, excellent attack and defence. I am not sure what more he has to prove to be honest.

Joe Schmidt doesn't agree with you

I don't need Schmidt to form my opinions, I watch rugby and form my own.

Ouch...  

Realize its raw after such a tough loss , know how you feel having lost to Saracens so maybe debate on the International boards once emotions have calmed down.

Well done Toulon,great stuff

geoff998rugby wrote:Realize its raw after such a tough loss , know how you feel having lost to Saracens so maybe debate on the International boards once emotions have calmed down.  

Not really Geoff. Its just you havent a clue and your opinion is based on rubbish analysis. Nothing new from you though. It is your opinion if a little silly.

Hey man I do not need to listen to your opinions either.

Opinions are like bumholes everyone has one and you certainly do - sometimes you get them confused

Just to back up the last comment Geoff. Zebo has just played a very good game, scores a try, saves a try, makes the most tackles in the backline (on top of the game against Toulouse). You mention the Glasgow game as proof he is not good enough where he made one mistake amongst the many in the team. Yet Trimble who was absolute rubbish against Glasgow (constantly) and its different....I think the term rock on is called for...you either havent a clue or you are just happy with being wrong or just plain.....

He just doesnt hit enough rucks...........

Ah in fairness Trimble has been the best Irish winger this year by a good bit. But Zebo has been pretty damn good, especially since been dropped from the Irish squad. On from hed probably take the second wing position but  Bowe been Bowe might get it before him.

I'd have Zebo starting on the summer tour, as long as he's learnt to respect his coaches  

Trimble had a very good 6N and fully deserved the backing from Schmidt, no doubts about that from my side.

Zebo has had some injuries but since he has been back he has been excellent, a realy big match player and that's what Ireland need. To me, he is the best winger in Ireland when fully fit.

There seems to be this myth that he is poor in defence and yet I am not to see any evidence of this. Today was a big match and he made an excellent try saving tackle.

I would much rather have his attacking nous in an Ireland jersey that that of Dave Kearney, that is my opinion, right or wrong.

Nachos Jones wrote:Trimble had a very good 6N and fully deserved the backing from Schmidt, no doubts about that from my side.

Zebo has had some injuries but since he has been back he has been excellent, a realy big match player and that's what Ireland need. To me, he is the best winger in Ireland when fully fit.

There seems to be this myth that he is poor in defence and yet I am not to see any evidence of this. Today was a big match and he made an excellent try saving tackle.

I would much rather have his attacking nous in an Ireland jersey that that of Dave Kearney, that is my opinion, right or wrong.

Tackle count for Zebo today was 9 with 0 missed....

No wonder Geoff doesnt like SEWA its no wonder if he is spouting the stuff he does.

In fairness, you only have to pee Sewa off one time and he will be at you forever

Munster made to many mistakes and poor decisions. Not good enough. Toulon actually didn't impress me either. They're good at getting kicks for Jonny and keeping the scoreboard ticking. So will be in with a chance in a tight game. But I really think Saracens will beat them now.

There's something that annoys me a lot about Toulon. They've spent so much money. And have so much talent behind the pack. Fair enough. Why do they play such an awful brand of rugby? At least Sarries play some nice stuff sometimes.

In fact I'm gonna be rooting for Saracens. I reserve the right to change my mind if Ashton swan dives.

Zebo can be a cocky pain in the arze but he was very good today in all aspects of play and I would have him ahead of Dave Kearney, Keatley was excellent and some of his line kicks were brilliant and he is one of the most improved players in Ireland this season - certainly moved ahead of Madigan and nudging Jaclson for the number two 10 spot. Thought Murray wasd very good two but the rest of the back line were pretty forgettable apart from some good tackles (Downey).

I'd prefer Zebo for Ireland too. I want him at full back though.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'd prefer Zebo for Ireland too. I want him at full back though.

Given how out of the game Jones was today...there was a call to have Zebo at FB with VdenH in the wing...might have been a better option today.

One must ask what Jones has to do to be dropped. He always gives his all but surely Zebo should be playing there.

Not sure it would have changed the result ME-109. For me, Munster deserved to beat Clermont last year, but they deserved to lose today. To many mistakes, poor tactics and poor decisions. Of course they were brave and plucky and all that but that's the least I expect from them.

A semi final in Ireland once in a while wouldn't hurt though would it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:One must ask what Jones has to do to be dropped. He always gives his all but surely Zebo should be playing there.

Meh in fairness it wasnt a game for FBs today and he didnt do anything wrong...but we needed more as our midfield was poor (no surprise there)

Feckless Rogue wrote:Not sure it would have changed the result ME-109. For me, Munster deserved to beat Clermont last year, but they deserved to lose today. To many mistakes, poor tactics and poor decisions. Of course they were brave and plucky and all that but that's the least I expect from them.

A semi final in Ireland once in a while wouldn't hurt though would it.

Scoreline never lies....but. lots of buts. I dont go for the plucky/brave sh.t. Toulon were there for the taking and we lacked leadership and made to many mistakes..Leinster were plucky and brave and ultimately overrun...we had it in our own hands and messed it up

I definitely want to see Zebo start at fullback in one game Feckless. Rob Kearney is clear first choice but wouldn't hurt to try something new on this tour. Argentina will be experimenting a bit as well.

I feel like there were some bad decisions and kicks from Keatley and Hanrahan between the 70th and 75th minute that let the game just slip away... it's a shame. I don't think you could get a harder game in the European Cup than that.

I don't care what Joe Schmidt thinks about Simon Zebo. In my opinion he is the best winger in Ireland bar none at the moment. I hate it when people write "as long as he's learnt to respect his coaches" (and I take on board the   Golden, so please don't take this comment personally).

Simon Zebo is an extrovert. He frequently shows his Caribbean heritage in his sheer enjoyment when playing. He reminds me of years ago when I saw the West Indies playing cricket - I had thought it was such a boring game until I saw those guys play. They made it fun. Zebo does the same. This extroversion may occasionally manifest itself in apparent disrespect for coaches. If it does and as a result the coaches decide to ignore him then they are just exhibiting very silly, childish, immature behaviour. It also shows that they have very little clue about different personalities and very little skill in man-management.

If a coach wants a squad of yes-men with no one voicing an opinion different from that of the coaches; no one offering an alternative way of approaching a game; no one suggesting that there could be another way of playing; then that is the coaches' prerogative. However what you end up with is a squad / team of automatons who have had all their thinking capacity removed. This works fine as long as the team is allowed to implement their game plan. However, once the opposition work out the game plan what does the team do then? It was a comment made by many people about Wales this year - Gatland-ball had run its course, the other teams had worked them out and they were (relatively) easily beaten.

In my opinion a good coach is one that educates the players to think and implement unstructured moves in the course of a game as the situation calls for those moves. By all means have a game plan; by all means have set / prepared plays. But ... you have to be able to vary that in the course of a game. The important word above is "educates". Education is so very different from training and good teams not only spend time training, they also need to be educated.

Simon Zebo is a genuine threat on a team because he is the sort of player who can and does do the unexpected. His team-mates need to be alive to that. That sort of vision CANNOT be included in a strict controlled game plan because it is impossible for every situation in an 80 minute game to be foreseen by the coaches, the analysts or the players. To have a player of Zebo's quality, you have to have high quality, awake, non-automaton-style players around him. (Think of Quade Cooper for Australia). Also the coaches HAVE to give this kind of instinctive player licence to use their instincts. If they do something and it doesn't come off, they must not give out to them after the game; rather they should sit down with the player, chat about what went wrong and work out how it might have been done better so that next time, it will be.

Can Joe Schmidt cope with that sort of player in his team? I have seen no evidence during his time with Leinster or Ireland that he can or wants to. I am sure Zebo is very keen to get back into the Ireland team. I only hope and pray that in doing so he does not have to curb his natural instincts and flair. Will that be the price he has to pay to put on a green shirt? Is that what Ireland supporters would want? Really?

The funny thing is, that Toulon team will look completely different in 2-3 years time. Most of their players were over 30.

Well you couldn't argue with Trimbles form either Kia, I suspect we'll see a Trimble and Bowe combination; the most in-form winger and the most experienced. But if either one is unavailable I would go with Zebo and he's definitely ahead of Dave Kearney and Fergus McFadden for me.

I don't think there is any evidence at all for all the other things you say. I think thats all based on heavy assumptions with no real insight into whats going on. It's all based on your own suppositions and inferences and not very much actual evidence. As is the argument Zebo 'disrespects' coaches and thats why he was on the outside or whatever other nonsense. I haven't seen any evidence of Schmidt trying to curb players natural instincts in his coaching career whatsoever. His sides have always played attacking, adventurous rugby and the longer we've had him as coach the more and more openly we've played.

Today Zebo stepped up a gear, it was a seasons best performance, and that should catch the eye of the coaches. At the start of the Six Nations he had barely played and then it becomes a question of continuity and the guys in the team are doing well. I don't think there is anything negative at all between Schmidt and Zebo. I think thats all just chinese whispers with nothing behind it. Typical Irish rugby rumour mill.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The funny thing is, that Toulon team will look completely different in 2-3 years time. Most of their players were over 30.

True but the new Euro set up is favoured to those who have so most will still be bought imports and not French players.

Oh of course. Toulon will always have very few French players in their starting team. After the RWC Toulon will be signing a whole raft of SH players.