HEC Semi-Final Toulon v Munster, Stade Velodrome, Marseille

First topic message reminder :

KO 16.30 (local time; 15.30 YTC) Sunday April 27th.  Yet another Day of Destiny for Munster Rugby.

So far the only participants we know for definite are
Referee:  Wayne Barnes

ARs:  JP Doyle; Luke Pearce

TMO: Graham Hughes.

All the officials are from England.

Friday 25th - edited with team announcements.

Toulon
Delon Armitage;
Drew Mitchell, Mathieu Bastareaud, Matt Giteau, Bryan Habana;
Jonny Wilkinson (c), Sebastien Tillous-Borde;
Xavier Chiocci, Craig Burden, Carl Hayman,
Danie Rossouw, Jocelino Suta,
Juan Smith, Juan Fernandez Lobbe, Steffon Armitage.
Remplaçants : Jean-Charles Orioli, Alexandre Menini, Martin Castrogiovanni, Virgile Bruni, David Smith, Maxime Mermoz, Michael Claassens, Konstantine Mikautadze.

Munster
Felix Jones;
Keith Earls, Casey Laulala, James Downey, Simon Zebo;
Ian Keatley, Conor Murray;
Dave Kilcoyne, Damien Varley Capt., BJ Botha;
Dave Foley, Paul O'Connell;
CJ Stander, Sean Dougall, James Coughlan.
Replacements: Duncan Casey, James Cronin, John Ryan, Donncha O'Callaghan, Tommy O'Donnell, Duncan Williams, JJ Hanrahan, Denis Hurley.

As my stomach is already churning when I think of Sunday, I thought I would start the ball rolling on the topic.

Munster Abú

Munster are going to get tanked   

Golden wrote:Who was the back up out half last week?

Conor Murray.

Murray came on at 10; Duncan Williams played 9.

I would bet on JJ being fit. Mind games?

KiaRose wrote:

Golden wrote:Who was the back up out half last week?

Conor Murray.

Murray came on at 10; Duncan Williams played 9.

I would bet on JJ being fit.  Mind games?

Don't think its mind games he twinged his groin and would have defo played last week if fit! The groin is usually slow to heal! If he played it would probably losen out after initially being sore but it would tighten up badly afterwards!

Good news that's Cronin looks to be fit as he is a super scrummager and a brilliant replacement to bring on!

I would not have d Ryan in the squad as he just couldn't be match fit and doc has been playing very well this season!

I've entered 5 different competitions to get over to Marseilles and my wife has agreed she would look after our 10 day old daughter if I win   

Congrats on the daughter Muff.

Is it your first?

Congrats Muff on the birth of Baby BlueMuff or should that be Baby PinkMuff!

Congratulations BM...maybe she will bring you luck for the competitions...

Congratulations, great news. Does that mean you will be even grumpier now that you will be getting no sleep?   

Really hoping that Munster can win this one. Not least because I have a little double on them and Saracens winning with my man down at Paddy Power.

Ah thanks lads first child but just cause she is a girl doesn't mean she won't be sporting a little Deise and Munster Jersey (and Connacht just to keep the wife happy    )

Guns you know your the grumpy one now that Ireland's top province are flying the flag in the European premier club competition for the second year running

C'mon Munster    

Was I the only one to spot Munster at 30/1 to win the tournament at the start of the season?  

Just like to say that I wish Munster all the best but can't see past a significant win for Toulon.

Wilko, giteau (at 10 if needed), basteraud, etc, etc are just way too strong/experienced in the backs, and Steffen armitage is the best ball winner in world rugby presently.

Toulon by 15 with at least 2 YCs for Munster trying to slow the ball down.

Sorry lads, I love seeing Munster trundle over opposition but I believe this one is a mountain.

That said, if Munster do win I will be absolutely thrilled for you.

Win-win for me

theslosty wrote:Was I the only one to spot Munster at 30/1 to win the tournament at the start of the season?  

No

BlueMuff wrote:Ah thanks lads first child but just cause she is a girl doesn't mean she won't be sporting a little Deise and Munster Jersey (and Connacht just to keep the wife happy    )

Guns you know your the grumpy one now that Ireland's top province are flying the flag in the European premier club competition for the second year running

C'mon Munster    

Haha. Enjoy it. Good times on both fronts for you.

C'mon RCT   

Barnes looks like he is under a lot of pressure coming into this game. Given he reffed toulons semi and the criticism from the Toulon president he should not have been given this game!

Like him or Loathe him Barnes is his own man so I wouldnt be too worried about it. ..thankfully it isnt Doyle...he got dogs abuse from the supporters at the Munster/Toulouse game as linesman apparently.

Is it Sunday yet!!!!

BM did you win any competitions?

No a f**king Leinster supporter won the mrsc comp! The Trevor Brennan comp think we will be waiting till forever to hear about a winner ......

Rumours going around that d Ryan starting a 6 and Dougal at 7 would not be in favour of this

Allez lez blues

Cant see past a repeat of last years final myself.

Hope I am wrong - for Munsters sake not Saracens   

geoff998rugby wrote:Cant see past a repeat of last years final myself.

Hope I am wrong - for Munsters sake not Saracens   

Come on geoff, don't you want to be able to say you lost to the eventual winners?

I cant see them winning it - so the question is moot.

To be honest I just hope for a decent game on Sunday no passion in it for me either way.
I just think Clermont at their best, even this year, are better than Saracens at their best.
Saracens are in some respect a limited team (I think struggling against 14 men highlighted that) and the best will beat them.

am going to the sarries game, with my french in-laws who all come from the Auvergne originally.

Clermont are a big powerful side, but if they dont play their best then Sarries could win. Won't be a home game really as i bet half the crowd will be French come kickoff.

But i cant see sarries beating ASM and Toulon both. wouldnt put money on that unless it was at least 10:1 odds.

very excited for the sunday game though. will either of the sides have to wear a different coloured away strip?

think Munster will wear blue...

Munster are wearing blue

I don't think Ryan is going to start, seems a little far fetched.

I saw the winner of the comp it was a lunster who won (limerick dad right?)

quinsforever wrote:
Clermont are a big powerful side, but if they dont play their best then Sarries could win. Won't be a home game really as i bet half the crowd will be French come kickoff.

Agree with the first point Clermont need to be off their game to a degree for Saracens to win.

As to the second point Clermont fans will make it a home game.
Having been to home and way games against both teams 1 Clermont fan makes more noise than 10 Saracens fans - that is not an exaggeration

well i make as much noise as 10 of my french relatives so maybe it'll sound more balanced

no TOD, its an outrage. how could you pick jordi murp.... i mean dougal ahead of him.

#justice4tod

Jones, Earls, Laulala, Downey, Zebo, Keatley, Murray.

Killer, Varley, BJ, Foley, POC, CJ, Dougal, Coughland.

Bench: Casey, Cronin, J Ryan, DOC, TOD, Williams, JJ, Hurley
I professes my man love for Dougal during the week. It is a ballsy move. He is there to mark Armitage, he has the athleticism, fitness and strength to do it. We also need an impact off the bench which of course O'Donnell provides. Ryan failed his fitness test, not in 22 at all, big loss in terms of the lineout which was there to be attacked.


Nerves are building, no sport on Saturday (till the other HC semi) to settle it at least there's something that interests me on tonight

Toulon team named...

15. Delon Armitage; 14. Drew Mitchell, 13. Mathieu Bastareaud, 12. Matt Giteau, 11. Bryan Habana; 10. Jonny Wilkinson (c), 9. Sebastien Tillous-Borde; 1. Xavier Chiocci, 2. Craig Burden, 3. Carl Hayman, 4. Danie Rossouw, 5. Jocelino Suta, 6. Juan Smith, 7. Juan Fernandez Lobbe, 8. Steffon Armitage
16. Jean-Charles Orioli, 17. Alexandre Menini, 18. Martin Castrogiovanni, 19. Virgile Bruni, 20. David Smith, 21. Maxime Mermoz, 22. Michael Claassens, 23. Konstantine Mikautadze

Not a bother...bunch of unknown old fellas...

No Michalak to be seen surprising that. Can't rely on someone to make a balls of a big opportunity from Toulon anyway

No williams and Bakkies.....yera sure Rousouw and Suta are a walkover.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:no TOD, its an outrage. how could you pick jordi murp.... i mean dougal ahead of him.

#justice4tod

TOD was super until Schmidt messed with his head.

Horses for courses. POM & TOD compliment each other. CJ & Dougal also compliment each other.

Sin é wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:no TOD, its an outrage. how could you pick jordi murp.... i mean dougal ahead of him.

#justice4tod

TOD was super until Schmidt messed with his head.

Horses for courses. POM & TOD compliment each other. CJ & Dougal also compliment each other.

+1

With POM out we need someone for the breakdown. CJ is ok but not as effective as POM.

Sin é wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:no TOD, its an outrage. how could you pick jordi murp.... i mean dougal ahead of him.

#justice4tod

TOD was super until Schmidt messed with his head.

Horses for courses. POM & TOD compliment each other. CJ & Dougal also compliment each other.

totally agree, schmidt never liked him from the start, probably knew he was mentally fragile

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:no Jordi, its an outrage. how could you pick an old man like Jennings..l ahead of him. Recipe for disaster....

#justice4tod

Fixed that for you....

Dougal is a fine player, been unlucky to be stuck behind O'Donnell in lots of ways. Dougal should be in Armitage's ear all day, trying to pilfer ball and hit low, guy has great fitness and speed to do it. CJ brings something O'Mahony doesn't, dynamic ball carrying, whether that effects him in his breakdown work is debatable, but he is very good there too.

Thomond wrote:Dougal is a fine player, been unlucky to be stuck behind O'Donnell in lots of ways. Dougal should be in Armitage's ear all day, trying to pilfer ball and hit low, guy has great fitness and speed to do it. CJ brings something O'Mahony doesn't, dynamic ball carrying, whether that effects him in his breakdown work is debatable, but he is very good there too.

We lose an awful lot without POM and no CJ is not that great at the breakdown...his ball carrying is effective but against a physical backrow like Toulon it will be interesting to see how he gets on given how he was against Glasgow...(one of his usual off days). Hopefully he turns it on on Sunday.

It's a bit of a make shift experimental back row that would worry me! Normally the back row picks itself on hc weekend.

Pom is a huge loss that can't be understated

Think you're being unduly harsh on Stander, magnificent against Toulouse if he doesn't play like that we would have been in a spot of bother. You really can't read a lot into the Glasgow game, like the Leinster game. POM is a fine player we lose more from a leadership aspect in my opinion given who he has selected, What Dougal is capable of doing at the breakdown and the presence of CJ means we can deal with it far more effectively. We have about 3 good carriers in the pack could do with one more but you're sacrificing TOD for Dougal in defence.

RCT team announced (from 15 to 1)

D. Armitage ; Mitchell, Bastareaud, Giteau, Habana ; Wilkinson, Tillous-Borde ; Fernandez Lobbe, S. Armitage, J. Smith ; Suta, Rossouw ; Hayman, Burden, Chiocci.

subs: Orioli, Menini, Castrogiovanni, Bruni, D. Smith, Mermoz, Claassens, Mikautadze

looks similar to the team that faced Leinster with Habana back.

oups sorry, didnt see it was posted 2 hours ago!!

such a great lineup it is worth posting twice

Thomond wrote:Think you're being unduly harsh on Stander, magnificent against Toulouse if he doesn't play like that we would have been in a spot of bother. You really can't read a lot into the Glasgow game, like the Leinster game. POM is a fine player we lose more from a leadership aspect in my opinion given who he has selected, What Dougal is capable of doing at the breakdown and the presence of CJ means we can deal with it far more effectively. We have about 3 good carriers in the pack could do with one more but you're sacrificing TOD for Dougal in defence.

Possibly but our worst part of the Toulouse game was the 20-25 mins after POM went off.

Also losing TOD in the centrefield which he patrols effectively is an issue (Gears try).

Having said that CJs tackling stats are outstanding so to be clear given POMs injury he is the obvious choice....but its definitely weaker.

Teams are named - how do they rate head-to-head

15 - Jones v D Armitage - D Armitage is up there with Ashton as a grade 1 gobsh1te but hate to say it he has the edge over Jones - Toulon
14 - Earls v Mitchell - if Earls can get the ball in his hands he is as dangerous a runner as they come, but then so is Mitchell - Mitchjell edges it - Toulon
13 - Laulala v Basteraud - Laulala has been no more than so-so all season but Basteraud is either a wrecking ball punching giant holes in midfield or is useless - hope it's the latter on Sunday and on that basis of hope going with Laulala - Munster
12 - Downey v Giteau - afraid no contest on this one, a plodder v one of the best 12's there been for years - Toulon
11 - Zebo v Habana - like Earls Zebo is a great runner - if he gets the ball. Have to assume by being picked that Habana is fully fit and if he is then Zebo's defence (not his greatest attribute is going to be tested - Toulon
10 - Keatley v Wilkinson - Keatley is hugely improved this season, is a superb kicker and his ability to get the line moving has improved massively. Wilko's kicking unquestionably brilliant but always had questions over his distribution so not as clear cut as Wilco fans might think - Toulon
9 - Murray v Tillous Borde - Murray the best 9 in Europe right now and probably the one position where Munster have a clear edge =Munster
1 - Kilcoyne v Chiocco - if Killer can contain his penchant for giving away peno then Munster coiuld have the advantage - Munster
2 - Varley v Burden - hope to god Varley can get his darts right, Burden showed v Leinster in the QF that he is brilliant in the loose - Toulon (just about)
3 - Botha v Hayman - Hayman was the best TH in the world a few years ago but he's well off that level now and he struggled badly against Healy in the QF. BJ a proven TH and he edges it - Munster
4 - Foley v Roussow - Roussow by a good margin - Toulon
5 - POC v Suta - POC by a wide margin - Munster
6 - Stander v Smith - if Stander plays lie he did v Toulouse then Munster have the edge, Smith a fading force so going with Munster just
7 - Dougal v Fernandez Lobbe - Lobbe is a fantastic 7, Dougal still learning his trade - have to go with Toulon
8 - Coughlan v S Armitage - the big question if Armitage can be prevented dominating the breakdown - a big if - have to go with Toulon

Subs - not going to go through them all as don't know a lot about a few of the Toulon subs - but Mermoz and D Smith big names for Toulon to bring on. Castro has always been a bit of a show pony and I don't think Munster have anything to fear from him. Classen a workmanlike SH - no more. For Munster - DOC, TOD high impact H2 subs, JJ waiting to inject some Kerry fireworks but Williams a weak link at sub SH.

So head-to-head it's 10-5 in favour of Toulon and they are playing in France. Hard to argue against them and the bookies who are giving a 8 point spread against Munster. But then............

Ah sure we will just enjoy the craic...

any of you going?

interestingly Burden used to play wing and centre before moving to Hooker for the Shark and BJ Botha used to be his mentor during his transition! that's why he's sometimes impressive in the loose.
 
the rucks is probably the area where the game will be decided (not a  breaking news I know!).

It's one of those head vs heart situations.

My head says Toulon, but my heart says "Feck! I hope it's not Toulon. I fecking hate Toulon. 'HOM MUNSTER!"

If the Final is Saracens vs Toulon I'm not even going to watch it   

Notch wrote:It's one of those head vs heart situations.

My head says Toulon, but my heart says "Feck! I hope it's not Toulon. I fecking hate Toulon. 'GWAN MUNSTER!"

If the Final is Saracens vs Toulon I'm not even going to watch it   

Fixed that there Notch...if you want to be a honorary Munster man