The Official Irish Provinces Rugby Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Fans of Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connacht unite! A place is here to talk of your teams.

Discuss the Pro12 run-in, the provinces prospects in Europe next season, the tour to Argentina and why we're generally just the best. I mean, just how great are we? Lets talk about that.

But mainly whatever feckin' thing comes into your head!

[Don Alfonso]

As.much as it is now tempting to blame everything on Humphs...

Who should Ian Nagle blame for his stagnant career? I wonder is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year in the B&I Cup, leapfrogged by yet more Leinster youngsters?

It's a shame, but some pretty tidy players don't have the canoes to move out of their comfort zone.

[SecretFly]

As.much as it is now tempting to blame everything on Humphs...

Who should Ian Nagle blame for his stagnant career? I wonder is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year in the B&I Cup, leapfrogged by yet more Leinster youngsters?

Well who should they blame? The inference of your comments seems to suggest you have your opinion on who it is. Is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year with Leinster? He's the guy to ask. Who should Ian Nagle blame? He's the guy to ask. Does Ian blame anyone? We'd find out if he was asked.

[Don Alfonso]

Inference?  Suggestion? Have I been too subtle?

They have themselves to blame - both are known to have received offers from other provinces.

If a killer year at Leinster for Dom means watching HEC games from the stands, watching his peers contribute meaningfully on the pitch,  fair play to him. He's got what he wanted.

[LeinsterFan4life]

But Ryan would be going from sitting on the bench with Leinster to sitting in the bench with Ulster... It would be a sidewards move.

If he wants to move on with his career he should move abroad to where he is a starter.

[SecretFly]

You're bitter at Ryan for choosing his own way though - in his own life, making his own decisions?  "You could'a been a star had you not had ambitions of your own"

We've all made mistakes in life but mostly we've been the only ones who have had to worry about them or chastise ourselves for them.  Let's hope Ryan got what he wanted.  It's all we can hope for players who are always one brutal step away from no career at all.  
Let's not hope he's sorry he made wrong decisions as that's none of our business and would be bordering on bitter.

I don't know where this is going as a topic.  It seems to have a life deeper than the surface issue though.

[Don Alfonso]

I'm not particularly bitter. I only got involved in this discussion because I got annoyed at posters pretending there was no qualitative difference in the way different provinces have players moving between them. That's demonstrably not the case. The whole Dom Ryan thing is just a blind alley.

[SecretFly]

Now that we're on this subject - although not directly linked.  Any of you watch American Football?  I don't and never have so I'm not informed about it at all.  But I hear about this 'draft' period that happens at some stage in the year?

A brief detail on what that entails if any of you can?  

It just came into my head because of what we're discussing and the idea that spoting stars might be 'compelled' to move to places they don't want to go to in future times and under future pressure conditions when IRFU try to live in a highly Professionalised Europe.  I don't know how the draft system works or whether thre is 'compulsion' in it - but if there is then I'd begin to think of it terms of professional slavery.  "You don't decide where you work - you work where we decide"  Is that what happens in this Draft thing?

[ME-109]

Christ Fly you are in a bad mood these days...

[geoff999rugby]

I don't ink getting players to move around Provinces will work.
Trouble is it is a central plank of the future IRFU strategy to maximize the retention of top Irish players in Ireland

Without it we will all need more NIQ than if it worked
Without it we will loose good players abroad who would otherwise stay
Without it and given the power of money in France, and to a lesser extent England, we will be very hard pressed to retain the desire
to select, almost, exclusively from within Ireland.

What is the perceived best interest of individual players runs counter to what is in the best interest of Irish rugby as a whole.
That is the dilemma.

[Sin é]

As.much as it is now tempting to blame everything on Humphs...

Who should Ian Nagle blame for his stagnant career? I wonder is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year in the B&I Cup, leapfrogged by yet more Leinster youngsters?

It's a shame, but some pretty tidy players don't have the canoes to move out of their comfort zone.

Munster offered Nagle a new contract and he has chosen to move on (I don't know yet where).

One of the main reasons why our top players stay in Ireland is because of the loyalty they have to their Province. Break that, and it won't be long where the top players will all be playing in France.

Any players who want to move to another province, do move. I also think you have to think about where the clubs are based. Both Leinster and Ulster are city based and not everyone wants to live in large urban areas (in the same way that Dublin or Belfast players might not like rural Munster.

With regard to Ulster - I remember Ronnie McCormack saying in an interview that he found it really hard to get used to ... (all the flags and stuff).

[SecretFly]

Christ Fly you are in a bad mood these days...

Yeah...kinda been corraled into it.  I don't feel bad moody but I realise I certainly look it in print these last few days.  I've been herded into the Bad Mood shed by a bunch of eager beaver farmers/posters wanting to take me to the abattoir.  I'm a kicking and snorting to resist the lorry but I'm cornered right now.

Next week's episode:  Fly escapes to annoy the beefy stat producers once more with more inane nonsense, disrupting their Who Goes To Left Wing EU subsidies.

[rodders]

As.much as it is now tempting to blame everything on Humphs...

Who should Ian Nagle blame for his stagnant career? I wonder is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year in the B&I Cup, leapfrogged by yet more Leinster youngsters?

Well who should they blame?  The inference of your comments seems to suggest you have your opinion on who it is.  Is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year with Leinster?  He's the guy to ask.  Who should Ian Nagle blame?  He's the guy to ask.  Does Ian blame anyone?  We'd find out if he was asked.

Totally agree fly. Every player should follow his own path. I have no problem with the IRFU trying to facilitate moves between provinces but ultimately it has to be the players choice.

One elephant in the room is the agents who try and negotiate moves abroad rather than interprovincial ones where there is no fee involved. Shehaan, Drico, Cornerflag etc. - they want their players to move to France and England not to Connacht or Ulster.

[SecretFly]

  Agents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Who'd have them!!!!!!!????????????

Hmmm, I'd die for one meself mind you.  

[geoff998rugby]

Any more signings for Leinster see as they are now down to 3 NIQ?

Douglas 2017, Gopperth 2015, Kirchner 2015.

[profitius]

Any more signings for Leinster see as they are now down to 3 NIQ?

Douglas 2017, Gopperth 2015, Kirchner 2015.

Which leads to the question, do they need any NIQ signings? They have a great conveyor belt of talent coming through so IMO they don't really need anymore NIQs.

The other provinces are different but I'm amazed Munster were allowed sign Van Den Heever given the amount of back 3 players they have.

[profitius]

As.much as it is now tempting to blame everything on Humphs...

Who should Ian Nagle blame for his stagnant career? I wonder is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year in the B&I Cup, leapfrogged by yet more Leinster youngsters?

Well who should they blame?  The inference of your comments seems to suggest you have your opinion on who it is.  Is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year with Leinster?  He's the guy to ask.  Who should Ian Nagle blame?  He's the guy to ask.  Does Ian blame anyone?  We'd find out if he was asked.

Totally agree fly. Every player should follow his own path. I have no problem with the IRFU trying to facilitate moves between provinces but ultimately it has to be the players choice.

One elephant in the room is the agents who try and negotiate moves abroad rather than interprovincial ones where there is no fee involved. Shehaan, Drico, Cornerflag etc. - they want their players to move to France and England not to Connacht or Ulster.        

I think the provinces are to blame because instead of doing whats right for the player they want to keep them around for the good of the province. Every player wants to stay and fight it out for for their positions and sometimes they can end up in a rut.

Its worth noting that Nagle and Dom Ryan have been unlucky with injuries and you need luck to get a run in the first team.

David Nucifora will hopefully put a stop to career pine riders. Billy Holland being the ultimate! He should have been let go by Munster years ago and some other AIL player tried out.

There are smart players now who are more ambitious. Theres plenty of Irish players gone to France and England and even young Irish players going far away from home to a place called Galway.   

[geoff998rugby]

Any more signings for Leinster see as they are now down to 3 NIQ?

Douglas 2017, Gopperth 2015, Kirchner 2015.

Which leads to the question, do they need any NIQ signings? They have a great conveyor belt of talent coming through so IMO they don't really need anymore NIQs.

The other provinces are different but I'm amazed Munster were allowed sign Van Den Heever given the amount of back 3 players they have.

Agreed hopefully they wont.
Regarding Munster the only thing I would point out is Botha is the only one NIE as opposed to NIQ.
Even at Ulster there are only 3 NIE and 2 of them have only 2 year contracts, and if rumours are to be believed Williams could go with Anscombe leaves next year.

[ME-109]

Cant seem to remember the last time Billy Holland played badly for Munster Prof...can you?

[The Great Aukster]

Homegrown players get a lot more leeway from fans than blow-ins, because their heart will always be on their sleeve. It's hard to criticise total commitment even if the player will never have real quality.

[Sin é]

As.much as it is now tempting to blame everything on Humphs...

Who should Ian Nagle blame for his stagnant career? I wonder is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year in the B&I Cup, leapfrogged by yet more Leinster youngsters?

Well who should they blame?  The inference of your comments seems to suggest you have your opinion on who it is.  Is Dom Ryan looking forward to another killer year with Leinster?  He's the guy to ask.  Who should Ian Nagle blame?  He's the guy to ask.  Does Ian blame anyone?  We'd find out if he was asked.

Totally agree fly. Every player should follow his own path. I have no problem with the IRFU trying to facilitate moves between provinces but ultimately it has to be the players choice.

One elephant in the room is the agents who try and negotiate moves abroad rather than interprovincial ones where there is no fee involved. Shehaan, Drico, Cornerflag etc. - they want their players to move to France and England not to Connacht or Ulster.        

I think the provinces are to blame because instead of doing whats right for the player they want to keep them around for the good of the province. Every player wants to stay and fight it out for for their positions and sometimes they can end up in a rut.

Its worth noting that Nagle and Dom Ryan have been unlucky with injuries and you need luck to get a run in the first team.

David Nucifora will hopefully put a stop to career pine riders. Billy Holland being the ultimate! He should have been let go by Munster years ago and some other AIL player tried out.

There are smart players now who are more ambitious. Theres plenty of Irish players gone to France and England and even young Irish players going far away from home to a place called Galway.   

Not everyone can be chiefs. You need to have players who can and will and able to play 'A' games as well. I remember Dutchy Holland who had retired at the time (and back playing amateur rugby with middleton) and was coaching on Munster's coaching staff ending up playing against Ulster because the Munster squad didn't have enough to cover participating in 3 competitions. At that stage they then started bringing in players from the AIL on training contracts. Billy Holland is a great squad player to have as he doesn't have a problem playing and providing a bit of experience to the the 'A's, but yet you don't feel too worried about him benching for the Heineken Cup because of his experience.

I would also suggest that the IRFU are very happy that someone like Nagle has got his education in Munster where there is such a great reputation for producing great forwards. Much comment has been made about Leinster & Ulster bringing in experienced locks (Muller & Thorn) that the younger players can learn from .... well wouldn't Nagle be nuts to move away from such an environment where he trains with one of the best locks in the world every day.

[Don Alfonso]

What is he doing with that education, though? He's the perennial second row student, as it were. Or was, in fairness.

[geoff998rugby]

Reposted from the Ulster thread in the hope someone can help

2 Leinster props mentioned as recruits for our Academy
Craig Trenier
Jeremy Loughman

Anyone know their background?

[LeinsterFan4life]

From reading other forums, Craig Trenier seems highly rated and would have been playing in the JWC only for him to be injured right before the tournament.

I think Loughman is still in school? And is primarily a LH.

[geoff998rugby]

Seems its Coulson not Loughman but a bit vague to be honest.

Trenier seems far more certain

[profitius]

Cant seem to remember the last time Billy Holland played badly for Munster Prof...can you?

Hes good at a certain level but thats it.

[Sin é]

What is he doing with that education,  though? He's the perennial second row student,  as it were.  Or was, in fairness.

He is 25 and he has been injured a fair bit over the last 2-3 years. He also had a lot of work to do to fill out a bit as he was very skinny.

[ME-109]

Cant seem to remember the last time Billy Holland played badly for Munster Prof...can you?

Hes good at a certain level but thats it.

Right but as has been pointed out he has been an excellent squad member for Munster and has always played well. Better than Nagle and Foley (until this year) and a great back up for the back row. Like I said cant remember when he ever played badly...

[Notch]

Every squad needs a few Billy Hollands. Ulster's problem is we don't have enough- we have all the guys who are test stars or potential internationals, the good signings we bring in from overseas, and then the last 10 or so spots in the squad we struggle to fill with the requisite quality.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Looks like the u20 prop Coulson has gone to Grenoble instead of Ulster. Must be seen as a good prospect.

[geoff998rugby]

Yep that seems to be the case Trenier is definitely coming

[thebandwagonsociety]

Looks like the u20 prop Coulson has gone to Grenoble instead of Ulster. Must be seen as a good prospect.

Is Jackman taking on the top role over at Grenoble? Wonder how green will the squad get in the next season or two if he survives in the role.

[Notch]

They've already signed Chris Farrell from Ulster. Good player- bit of a blockage in the centre with so many options there for Ulster right now. Hopefully he does well in France.

[Mickado]

Yeah Jackman is head coach in Grenoble now.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Im not too sure what the coaching situation is like at Grenoble but Jackman is certainly in a very senior position.

Its good to see him giving these opportunities to these young lads.

[Sin é]

Im not too sure what the coaching situation is like at Grenoble but Jackman is certainly in a very senior position.

Its good to see him giving these opportunities to these young lads.

Jackman is the head coach and Mike Prendergast is the Backs Coach, so I'd imagine there will be a few academy lads heading in that direction.

(Think the former head coach is now the Director of Rugby).

[LeinsterFan4life]

The u20 hooker, Dylan Donnellan is also off to Grenoble.

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