Absolutely taking the urine

First topic message reminder :

So much for this new European utopia we are supposed to be having, so much for the excuse of making the second tier of the European cup more attractive and competitive, none of the French sides put out a first team in the second tier competition, I was watching the Blues game and it was a farce. But of course, who can we complain to, now that this brave new world are run by the clubs ? We cannot go to the ERC to complain as they are not running the competition, where do we go ? This second tier competition is not worth a w@nk, I would have much rather seen the top tier with the likes of Cardiff and Edinburgh in it rather than watching them wiping the floor with the French 3rd choice teams in a take it or leave it for the French second tier comp.

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Unions turning a blind eye? All team rotate and rest.  When they do it is up to them.  Those 3rd strings, as you've catogorised them are still better than the teams you would replace them with.  It's like saying that teams rest players in the PRO12 and Jeff so replace them with others.

And the French get less per team than anyone else.

Well, youv'e changed your tune then, when the Pro12 side's were resting THEIR players in the league, and playing them in Europe, it was unfair, a farce, it needed to be changed. Also, I do not care how much money the French get, if they are not going to take the competition seriously, then they shouldn't get anything.

Their participation numbers should be cut!  

That's what we were threatened with after all...and threat carried out.  
"If you insist on cottonwoolising your best players in your shabby little league, and keep them too fresh and ready for the European event, then we say you'll pay the rpice by having your participation numbers docked, which will force you to play your cottonwoolanised players in your little shyte league"

So...what goes around................  
France numbers should be cut to two if they keep up the cottonwoolarity of their best players in The Challenge Cup!  
Two teams:  One auto entry into The ERCC and one into the Challenge Of a Lifetime Cup.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
And Fly, you're doing a slight twisting of facts there. The argument, at least mine, was that if you're saying that Scotland and Italy MUST have involvement in the top tier because of develop issues rather than 'earning' it then why shouldn't the other countries be involved. Why should Scotland get 2 places and Georgia none? Because they've been playing longer? Because they've got a bigger voice on the IRB? Because we play them a lot and it makes more money for us?

Because they had a right to them, as England had a right to 6 (still does) and France had a right to 6 (still does).  Because they had nothing more than the right to them, based on the same principles as England and France had a right to their entrants.  And I don't like other Nations (namely England and France) - competitor nations - using the power of money and threats to change the ground rules and taking those rights from them.  That to me is killing [rephrase - attempting to!] off a competitor, downing a rival.  Not right.

.... and THAT was always my retort, Hammer

I was going to carry one with this but we've done it all before haven't we? I might just go back a read the old threads instead

"Well, youv'e changed your tune then, when the Pro12 side's were resting THEIR players in the league, and playing them in Europe, it was unfair, a farce, it needed to be changed. Also, I do not care how much money the French get, if they are not going to take the competition seriously, then they shouldn't get anything."

By 'Youv'e'    do you mean Hammer or all supporters of none Pro12 sides that wanted some change to the HC qualifying process?

Don't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please don't. And that's for your own health and safety concerns I warn you....

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Unions turning a blind eye? All team rotate and rest.  When they do it is up to them.  Those 3rd strings, as you've catogorised them are still better than the teams you would replace them with.  It's like saying that teams rest players in the PRO12 and Jeff so replace them with others.

And the French get less per team than anyone else.

Well, youv'e changed your tune then, when the Pro12 side's were resting THEIR players in the league, and playing them in Europe, it was unfair, a farce, it needed to be changed. Also, I do not care how much money the French get, if they are not going to take the competition seriously, then they shouldn't get anything.

Have I really? Care to point out where? Or does everyone who doesn't agree with you merge into one?

The French take it as seriously as they need to. When the Blues made it to the semi-final they were second from bottom of the league...should they have been kicked out? when the Ospreys went on a european run (all the way to the Quarters) they came very low down the league (either the year before or the year after they won it)...should they have been kicked out? Edinburgh did the same didn't they? When Saints got to the Semi in 2007 they were relegated.

We can't expect players to play every game...isn't that what gets said over and over?...and therefore some decision has to be made about when they play them. I don't expect Brive to put their strongest side out when they're facing relegation (they're still better than some of the teams that were removed). I don't expect every team to focus on the European cup. But so far half of their teams won their games. The teams that lost were laregly away. Why not wait and see how they get on in their home games before crying out? Why not wait until the same teams are doing it every year before crying out?

TightHEAD wrote:"Well, youv'e changed your tune then, when the Pro12 side's were resting THEIR players in the league, and playing them in Europe, it was unfair, a farce, it needed to be changed. Also, I do not care how much money the French get, if they are not going to take the competition seriously, then they shouldn't get anything."

By 'Youv'e'    do you mean Hammer or all supporters of none Pro12 sides that wanted some change to the HC qualifying process?

...Except the lucky number 6 for the English and French. Nobody wanted that to change, it seems. Now there's a loaded dice that never changes its spots

HammerofThunor wrote: The teams that lost were laregly away.  Why not wait and see how they get on in their home games before crying out? Why not wait until the same teams are doing it every year before crying out?

Why wait? Just ban them down to two teams now. It's simpler. Waiting around is so yesterday's colour.

SecretFly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:"Well, youv'e changed your tune then, when the Pro12 side's were resting THEIR players in the league, and playing them in Europe, it was unfair, a farce, it needed to be changed. Also, I do not care how much money the French get, if they are not going to take the competition seriously, then they shouldn't get anything."

By 'Youv'e'    do you mean Hammer or all supporters of none Pro12 sides that wanted some change to the HC qualifying process?

...Except the lucky number 6 for the English and French.  Nobody wanted that to change, it seems.  Now there's a loaded dice that never changes its spots

I wanted to see a change.

I think the real winner will be the PRO12, as it will be a league worth watching to fans who don't follow any team in particular.

A level playing field for all has to be a good thing.

Look, everyone and their dog who did not support a Pro12 team on here were bitching about it, the owners of the English clubs were bitching about it, the final nail in the coffin came when Edinburgh got to the semi final not so long ago, but were down the bottom of the league, it's not fair, were the cries, they do not play their best players in the league, they were shouting, all their players are fresh for Europe and we do not have that luxury. Now, all of a sudden, now that the French are doing the same, it as all ok. Now that the English clubs have got what they want, you lot are just brushing things off, well I reckon, if certain clubs do not want anything to do with the second tier comp, then thats fine, do not enter into it, perhaps we could use the money awarded to those in the second tier on something else.

You could argue that the French don't even take away games in the top 14 seriously either!

Home games are the bread and butter for the French. It's just the French mentality. Changing that would take some doing!

Secretfly for what it's worth I think it's strange having Russia in Eurovision. Basically they want to be associated with "Europe" when it's convenient for them.

As for developing the game in other parts of Europe - the IRB should be doing their bit but it's up to those countries to do their bit themselves as well.

TightHEAD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:"Well, youv'e changed your tune then, when the Pro12 side's were resting THEIR players in the league, and playing them in Europe, it was unfair, a farce, it needed to be changed. Also, I do not care how much money the French get, if they are not going to take the competition seriously, then they shouldn't get anything."

By 'Youv'e'    do you mean Hammer or all supporters of none Pro12 sides that wanted some change to the HC qualifying process?

...Except the lucky number 6 for the English and French.  Nobody wanted that to change, it seems.  Now there's a loaded dice that never changes its spots

I wanted to see a change.

I think the real winner will be the PRO12, as it will be a league worth watching to fans who don't follow any team in particular.  

A level playing field for all has to be a good thing.

That's what AP was for years.  
A league worth watching to fans who don't follow any team in particular.  Or rather, that's what it weas marketed as.  

And yet................. that didn't content the teams in it.  Nope, they wanted more.  So in short, teams don't give a damn about what's nice to watch.  They give a damn about winning and about the money and influence that revolves around winning, in the competition they want to win in.  In this case that is, and was, Europe.  That's where you make your name as a League player and a League team in Europe - playing in it and winning it

LordDowlais wrote:Look, everyone and their dog who did not support a Pro12 team on here were bitching about it, the owners of the English clubs were bitching about it, the final nail in the coffin came when Edinburgh got to the semi final not so long ago, but were down the bottom of the league, it's not fair, were the cries, they do not play their best players in the league, they were shouting, all their players are fresh for Europe and we do not have that luxury. Now, all of a sudden, now that the French are doing the same, it as all ok. Now that the English clubs have got what they want, you lot are just brushing things off, well I reckon, if certain clubs do not want anything to do with the second tier comp, then thats fine, do not enter into it, perhaps we could use the money awarded to those in the second tier on something else.

For a start, stop lumping everyone together because you can't bothered to distinguish between the people who disagree with you. It's lazy and make you look daft.

Next, how do you define "do not want anything to do with"? Is it not playing you're best team in every game? If so that is a ridiculous expectation. So if you allow rotation is it only allowed when you say it is? Does it matter if they still win or do you expect to see their strongest team for all games?

Personally, and I've said this plenty of times in the past, each league should be given a weighting in Europe that decides how many teams they get in (and the qualification tournament). If the French send out weakened teams in the Challenge Cup and keep losing to the qualification sides they lose spots. Same goes with the Champions Cup. If one league keeps filling the shallow end of the pool then it loses places, with the leagues that do better gaining them. That way the crappy English sides would result in fewer teams in there. If the French rest their players...they lose spots. Maybe with some lower limit or maybe not.

A perfectly fair Europe was always top 20 sides from the Three Leagues.  No demarcation along League lines.  Top 20 performing sides both in points scored, bonus points, real in-game points, real tries etc.  Top 20 sides... no guarantees coming from any nation....

would PRL have liked that roll of the dice?  Afterall, they always said they had the best league with sides capable of doing the business in it - unlike the cottonwool Pro12 or the Forward dominated slugfests of Top14.

Top 20 euro sides based on yearly end totals of how well they performed.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, everyone and their dog who did not support a Pro12 team on here were bitching about it, the owners of the English clubs were bitching about it, the final nail in the coffin came when Edinburgh got to the semi final not so long ago, but were down the bottom of the league, it's not fair, were the cries, they do not play their best players in the league, they were shouting, all their players are fresh for Europe and we do not have that luxury. Now, all of a sudden, now that the French are doing the same, it as all ok. Now that the English clubs have got what they want, you lot are just brushing things off, well I reckon, if certain clubs do not want anything to do with the second tier comp, then thats fine, do not enter into it, perhaps we could use the money awarded to those in the second tier on something else.

For a start, stop lumping everyone together because you can't bothered to distinguish between the people who disagree with you. It's lazy and make you look daft.

Next, how do you define "do not want anything to do with"? Is it not playing you're best team in every game? If so that is a ridiculous expectation. So if you allow rotation is it only allowed when you say it is?  Does it matter if they still win or do you expect to see their strongest team for all games?

Personally, and I've said this plenty of times in the past, each league should be given a weighting in Europe that decides how many teams they get in (and the qualification tournament).  If the French send out weakened teams in the Challenge Cup and keep losing to the qualification sides they lose spots.  Same goes with the Champions Cup. If one league keeps filling the shallow end of the pool then it loses places, with the leagues that do better gaining them. That way the crappy English sides would result in fewer teams in there. If the French rest their players...they lose spots.  Maybe with some lower limit or maybe not.

Firstly I am not lumping everyone together, you are the one disagreeing, where were you when all this kicked off about putting weaker teams out in the Pro12 ? You must have been on a different planet at the time, because it was a real big stink that was kicked up by the English teams.

Secondly, where do you get off saying that rotation should only be allowed when I say ? You say does it matter if they win, well that clear did not matter when the English clubs/PRL were grizzling about it, because Leinster and Munster were still topping the Pro12 when they were doing it.

Thirdly, and last, I totally agree with your last paragraph.

The problem with doing it annually (if you meant change it every year) is that teams can have an injury crisis. There are more internationals in the Pro12 due to the 4 core countries represented so they might be more heavily influenced by the Lions or World Cups. But if it's every year it wouldn't be long before you're back in if it was a blip.

In Wales, it does not matter what competition you are in because the WRU splits the Euro money equally between the four regions, I suppose there is more prize money to be had in the top tier comp, but none of our regions are regulars outside the groups, so I guess it is bit of a red herring, but, even though there no financial benefit for the Blues and Dragons in the Amlin cup this year, they still put out decent sides against French sides with nigh on 15 changes, and I will reiterate my point, if the French do not want to be in the Amlin, then don't be in it, we could use the money they get for putting teams in it elsewhere. Also, as for the other French teams who won in the challenge cup, did Exeter or London Welsh put out full side's either ?

LordDowlais wrote:Firstly I am not lumping everyone together, you are the one disagreeing, where were you when all this kicked off about putting weaker teams out in the Pro12 ? You must have been on a different planet at the time, because it was a real big stink that was kicked up by the English teams.

Yes you are. You're telling me that I complained about the Pro12 resting players in the league to be strong for Europe. When I called you on that you tell me everyone was doing it and I must have been on a different planet.  I'm not saying that some didn't kicked up a stink, I'm saying I didn't.

Secondly, where do you get off saying that rotation should only be allowed when I say ? You say does it matter if they win, well that clear did not matter when the English clubs/PRL were grizzling about it, because Leinster and Munster were still topping the Pro12 when they were doing it.

Where do I get off? To be honest I've no idea where this train is going so I think I might ride it to the end.  Resting players is important. We've covered that. YOU say that it is unacceptable to rest players during one particular 2nd tier competition. Therefore YOU are dictating when teams can rest players. Not complicated.

As for the second bit, well this is where it becomes a bit more complicated. The idea of the Pro12 teams not requiring qualification meaning they relax in the league is not directly related to the top teams but indirectly. If, for example, Edinburgh can take it easy in the league due to automatic qualification then it means they aren't fighting tooth and nail for a win when Ulster come to town and Ulster can win the game with a weakened team.  It's similar to the relegation impact in England. Leicester aren't directly affected by relegation threat because realistically they're not going to get relegated (beyond some horrendous crisis). But it does mean that several teams at the bottom fight tooth and nail to avoid the drop (check out the performances of the teams near the bottom in the latter stages of the league, they tend to do a lot better).  This means Leicester have to work harder to get the win than they would if the bottom teams weren't as desperate.

At least that's the theory, how correct or relevant it is I don't know.  I certainly wouldn't plan my life around it.[/quote]

Thirdly, and last, I totally agree with your last paragraph.

I think it was cyril or someone else who suggested it first (that I had seen). But as Fly said, if the top tier is supposed to be the best teams then it should be irrelevant to league. but how do you determine it? Playoffs? I don't think one off games are the best way of determining the best team, as we've seen from World Cups and other competitions.  Useful to seperate the top once they're their but not really great starting point, in my opinion.

So the only other thing left, that I can see is by giving a rating tothe leagues for 'reletive strength'. So if the Pro12 was a stronger league than the Jeff coming 7th would be better than 6th in the Jeff...tat sort of thing.

Of course then the problem would be about setting up a sensible when of rating them.  The IRB rankings are a reasonable system, win gain points off your opposition.  If they're much better than you you get more points if you win. But you get loads of people saying how rubbish they are (if they don't agree with their personal subjective view usually).

I would go with a starting point of saying all the leagues were equal and figuring out a modify based on the performance from the previous year. But how?, I hear you cry. Well I suppose you could simply work out the average points for each league, with 4 points for winning a knockout stage.  If two teams from the same league play then it should average out unless they gain bonus points.  You would have work out what the reference would be (probably winning half of the pool games, plus a third of the available points in the knockout stages) and work out teams from that. No idea what that would come out with or how you get team numbers from it.

Oh and did anyone see O'Driscoll sell out on BT last night? He said it was a fairer playing field now. It's such a shame when players sell their souls, he was even plugging his book.  Although I actually like Rugby Tonight this week, most likely because Dawson was replaced by O'Driscoll.

"Oh and did anyone see O'Driscoll sell out on BT last night? He said it was a fairer playing field now. It's such a shame when players sell their souls, he was even plugging his book. Although I actually like Rugby Tonight this week, most likely because Dawson was replaced by O'Driscoll."

- LOL. That explains why this discussion is so quiet.

quinsforever wrote:"Oh and did anyone see O'Driscoll sell out on BT last night? He said it was a fairer playing field now. It's such a shame when players sell their souls, he was even plugging his book.  Although I actually like Rugby Tonight this week, most likely because Dawson was replaced by O'Driscoll."

- LOL. That explains why this discussion is so quiet.

I am not talking about the top tier though, I am talking about the Amlin, if teams do not want to be in it then fine, dont be in it, but do not expect the European money that goes with it, that goes for Exeter and London Welsh as well, they both sent out weaker sides as well.

Just a question, as didn't see the game, but from reports Castres didn't even put out a 1st team in the ERCC.

If French clubs don't take the top tier to seriously, then what chance has the second tier.

Connacht played La Rochelle, who only had 2 players in the team that started in the league game before.

But to be fair there were also questions if Connacht would put out a strong team or rest players to concentrate on the League.

Think maybe if fixture was the other way round La Rochelle would have put out a strong team and Connacht rested players, you want to put out a good team at home, since La Rochelle lost, we can expect they will continue to ut out 2nd teams and concentrate on the league.

Don't Know how strong a team Chiefs put out, but you'd expect if Connachtbeat them they will give up on it.

Think that a lot of how serious you take it depends if you are home or away first, if home you put out a good team and then build a result and can make a good effort to win the group, if way pt out a weaker team and if lose, give up on th ecup.

Kingshu wrote:Just a question, as didn't see the game, but from reports Castres didn't even put out a 1st team in the ERCC.

If French clubs don't take the top tier to seriously, then what chance has the second tier.

Connacht played La Rochelle, who only had 2 players in the team that started in the league game before.

But to be fair there were also questions if Connacht would put out a strong team or rest players to concentrate on the League.

Think maybe if fixture was the other way round La Rochelle would have put out a strong team and Connacht rested players, you want to put out a good team at home, since La Rochelle lost, we can expect they will continue to ut out 2nd teams and concentrate on the league.

Don't Know how strong a team Chiefs put out, but you'd expect if Connachtbeat them they will give up on it.

Think that a lot of how serious you take it depends if you are home or away first, if home you put out a good team and then build a result and can make a good effort to win the group, if way pt out a weaker team and if lose, give up on th ecup.

Try telling that to Stade Francais, who were at home, put a 3rd string side out, and had one man and his dog turn up to watch them.

I just don't understand this argument, 1st XV or 3rd XV they are still PRO-players employed by their Club, Region or Province its up to them who they decide to play/rest against whoever, whenever. Most teams choose to do this in the early rounds of the euro cup, so what it's up to them.

Silly argument to say they don't deserve the money because they rested a few 1st team players, it happens but at least all teams now have to qualify for the right to play in the top level in Europe.

LordDowlais wrote:I am not talking about the top tier though, I am talking about the Amlin, if teams do not want to be in it then fine, dont be in it, but do not expect the European money that goes with it, that goes for Exeter and London Welsh as well, they both sent out weaker sides as well.

Why do you keep insisting that teams don't want to be in it? Not putting your strongest team out doesn't mean you don't want to be in it. Otherwise none of the leagues would have anyone in them as none of them play their strongest team in every game (the odd players, yes, but generally only if there is no other choice in that particular position). Seeing a competition as secondary to another doesn't mean they don't want to be in it. The 2nd tier is about giving those not qualified for Europe games to either, just try and win, gain confidence for those doing badly, giving game time to underused players, getting players returning from injury up to speed, trying out new combinations, new tactics, whatever they want it to be.

Doing that in the top tier is a bit more iffy but I can understand Castres not focusing on Europe given their start to their league. Unfortunately we can't know how a team will do next year so they can qualify for th ecorrect tournament. And if we did I think I'd stop bothering to watch. Same thing happened with Quins a few years back when they were struggling in the league, they moved the EPS rest spot to the European weakends as they were focusing on the league.

TightHEAD wrote:I just don't understand this argument, 1st XV or 3rd XV they are still PRO-players employed by their Club, Region or Province its up to them who they decide to play/rest against whoever, whenever. Most teams choose to do this in the early rounds of the euro cup, so what it's up to them.

Silly argument to say they don't deserve the money because they rested a few 1st team players, it happens but at least all teams now have to qualify for the right to play in the top level in Europe.

But when we were saying this about the Pro12 we were told it is unfair, and things need to change, and change they did, we have now had a complete overhaul of our league and how we qualify for Europe, we have had our allocations reduced, if clubs are not going to take a competition seriously, then they should not be in it, they are taking the money for being in it, so they should show the competition the respect we were all told to do.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am not talking about the top tier though, I am talking about the Amlin, if teams do not want to be in it then fine, dont be in it, but do not expect the European money that goes with it, that goes for Exeter and London Welsh as well, they both sent out weaker sides as well.

Why do you keep insisting that teams don't want to be in it? Not putting your strongest team out doesn't mean you don't want to be in it. Otherwise none of the leagues would have anyone in them as none of them play their strongest team in every game (the odd players, yes, but generally only if there is no other choice in that particular position).  Seeing a competition as secondary to another doesn't mean they don't want to be in it. The 2nd tier is about giving those not qualified for Europe games to either, just try and win, gain confidence for those doing badly, giving game time to underused players, getting players returning from injury up to speed, trying out new combinations, new tactics, whatever they want it to be.  

Doing that in the top tier is a bit more iffy but  I can understand Castres not focusing on Europe given their start to their league.  Unfortunately we can't know how a team will do next year so they can qualify for th ecorrect tournament. And if we did I think I'd stop bothering to watch.  Same thing happened with Quins a few years back when they were struggling in the league, they moved the EPS rest spot to the European weakends as they were focusing on the league.

Yes and the Pro12 side decided to focus on Europe, so what is the difference ?

But the Pro12 had automatic qualifying for the top level euro cup, that has now been put right and will benefit the Pro12 imo.

As for the teams not taking it seriously,

they have still earned the right to be there, its up to them how they choose to play it (rightly or wrongly)

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am not talking about the top tier though, I am talking about the Amlin, if teams do not want to be in it then fine, dont be in it, but do not expect the European money that goes with it, that goes for Exeter and London Welsh as well, they both sent out weaker sides as well.

Why do you keep insisting that teams don't want to be in it? Not putting your strongest team out doesn't mean you don't want to be in it. Otherwise none of the leagues would have anyone in them as none of them play their strongest team in every game (the odd players, yes, but generally only if there is no other choice in that particular position).  Seeing a competition as secondary to another doesn't mean they don't want to be in it. The 2nd tier is about giving those not qualified for Europe games to either, just try and win, gain confidence for those doing badly, giving game time to underused players, getting players returning from injury up to speed, trying out new combinations, new tactics, whatever they want it to be.  

Doing that in the top tier is a bit more iffy but  I can understand Castres not focusing on Europe given their start to their league.  Unfortunately we can't know how a team will do next year so they can qualify for th ecorrect tournament. And if we did I think I'd stop bothering to watch.  Same thing happened with Quins a few years back when they were struggling in the league, they moved the EPS rest spot to the European weakends as they were focusing on the league.

Yes and the Pro12 side decided to focus on Europe, so what is the difference ?

I don't know what the difference is. Were you calling for teams to be kicked out of the Pro12 as well? Or was that the difference?

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am not talking about the top tier though, I am talking about the Amlin, if teams do not want to be in it then fine, dont be in it, but do not expect the European money that goes with it, that goes for Exeter and London Welsh as well, they both sent out weaker sides as well.

Why do you keep insisting that teams don't want to be in it? Not putting your strongest team out doesn't mean you don't want to be in it. Otherwise none of the leagues would have anyone in them as none of them play their strongest team in every game (the odd players, yes, but generally only if there is no other choice in that particular position).  Seeing a competition as secondary to another doesn't mean they don't want to be in it. The 2nd tier is about giving those not qualified for Europe games to either, just try and win, gain confidence for those doing badly, giving game time to underused players, getting players returning from injury up to speed, trying out new combinations, new tactics, whatever they want it to be.  

Doing that in the top tier is a bit more iffy but  I can understand Castres not focusing on Europe given their start to their league.  Unfortunately we can't know how a team will do next year so they can qualify for th ecorrect tournament. And if we did I think I'd stop bothering to watch.  Same thing happened with Quins a few years back when they were struggling in the league, they moved the EPS rest spot to the European weakends as they were focusing on the league.

Yes and the Pro12 side decided to focus on Europe, so what is the difference ?

I don't know what the difference is. Were you calling for teams to be kicked out of the Pro12 as well? Or was that the difference?

I am not calling for teams to be kicked out, I am saying if they do not want to be in it just say, I also think that the whole second tier needs looking at, and if teams are deemed to be not taking it seriously, then actions should be taken, like docked monies.

But why?

TightHEAD wrote:But the Pro12 had automatic qualifying for the top level euro cup, that has now been put right and will benefit the Pro12 imo.

As for the teams not taking it seriously,

they have still earned the right to be there, its up to them how they choose to play it (rightly or wrongly)

On what planet have they "earned" the right to play in the competition ? They are in the Amlin as they are not good enough for the top tier competition, none of the clubs have earned being not good enough to qualify for the HC, they are just happy to stay in their top league, thus see the Amlin as an inconvenience, and they treat it as though.

TightHEAD wrote:But why?

Because they are not showing respect for the tournament that both the PRL and the LNR said they wanted to make more competitive and more marketable. Just becuase there are more Pro12 sides in it, it has not stopped Exeter and Stad Francias sending out weak sides at home.

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Yes and the Pro12 side decided to focus on Europe, so what is the difference ?

I don't know what the difference is. Were you calling for teams to be kicked out of the Pro12 as well? Or was that the difference?

I am not calling for teams to be kicked out, I am saying if they do not want to be in it just say, I also think that the whole second tier needs looking at, and if teams are deemed to be not taking it seriously, then actions should be taken, like docked monies.

So if there is no difference should countries receive less Pro12 money for resting players?

LordDowlais wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:But why?

Because they are not showing respect for the tournament that both the PRL and the LNR said they wanted to make more competitive and more marketable. Just becuase there are more Pro12 sides in it, it has not stopped Exeter and Stad Francias sending out weak sides at home.

But their players are still Pro rugby players are they not?

So what's the problem?

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Yes and the Pro12 side decided to focus on Europe, so what is the difference ?

I don't know what the difference is. Were you calling for teams to be kicked out of the Pro12 as well? Or was that the difference?

I am not calling for teams to be kicked out, I am saying if they do not want to be in it just say, I also think that the whole second tier needs looking at, and if teams are deemed to be not taking it seriously, then actions should be taken, like docked monies.

So if there is no difference should countries receive less Pro12 money for resting players?

We cannot rest players now, because everyone has made us change our league, so that is a moot point. The only other thing now is to look at the second tier again and change how teams treat it.

But 'your' league will be better for it.

One round and its all a complete failure

Nice

TightHEAD wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:But why?

Because they are not showing respect for the tournament that both the PRL and the LNR said they wanted to make more competitive and more marketable. Just becuase there are more Pro12 sides in it, it has not stopped Exeter and Stad Francias sending out weak sides at home.

But their players are still Pro rugby players are they not?

So what's the problem?

The problem is, which always has been, that the bigger teams did not want to play teams like Rovigo and hammer them every week, it was "not good for the competition", they wanted to make the second tier more marketable, more competitive, so they made the excuse that more Pro12 sides in the second tier would do just that, but hey ho, certain teams from the PRL and the LNR still treat the competition with contempt, they see it as a pain in their arris, if this is the case, then don't be in it, and do not take the money either, why should people fork out money to watch Cardiff Blues V Exeter 2nd/3rd's ?

lostinwales wrote:One round and its all a complete failure

Nice

Well if the English and French side's took the second tier more seriously it would not be seen as a failure. Also, I have no problem with the Champions Cup or what ever it is called.

LordDowlais wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:But why?

Because they are not showing respect for the tournament that both the PRL and the LNR said they wanted to make more competitive and more marketable. Just becuase there are more Pro12 sides in it, it has not stopped Exeter and Stad Francias sending out weak sides at home.

Exeter were away and actually put out a decent side. But hey why let facts ruin a prejudiced rant.

'why should people fork out money to watch Cardiff Blues V Exeter 2nd/3rd's ?'

Because (I'm taking a guess) they might be Rugby fans of those two clubs?

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:But why?

Because they are not showing respect for the tournament that both the PRL and the LNR said they wanted to make more competitive and more marketable. Just becuase there are more Pro12 sides in it, it has not stopped Exeter and Stad Francias sending out weak sides at home.

Exeter were away and actually put out a decent side. But hey why let facts ruin a prejudiced rant.

Sorry, my mistake, but they did not field a full side either, they made quite a few changes.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:One round and its all a complete failure

Nice

Well if the English and French side's took the second tier more seriously it would not be seen as a failure. Also, I have no problem with the Champions Cup or what ever it is called.

I guess we've only had 1 round so far?

or was that knock to my head at the weekend more serious?

Plenty of time for these teams to come back with a fresh rested 1st XV.

LordDowlais wrote:but hey ho, certain teams from the PRL and the LNR still treat the competition with contempt, they see it as a pain in their arris,

So if that's what you make of resting players does that not also mean that the Pro12 countries feel the same about the Pro12 when they rest players? And would you recommend the same punishment for them as you do for this?

Really you talk a load of Love sacks.

TightHEAD wrote:'why should people fork out money to watch Cardiff Blues V Exeter 2nd/3rd's ?'

Because (I'm taking a guess) they might be Rugby fans of those two clubs?

But it goes against everything that was argued by the PRL and LNR before the big Europaen shake up, how can you have a more marketable and more competitive competition if teams are not going to tale it seriously ?

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:but hey ho, certain teams from the PRL and the LNR still treat the competition with contempt, they see it as a pain in their arris,  

So if that's what you make of resting players does that not also mean that the Pro12 countries feel the same about the Pro12 when they rest players? And would you recommend the same punishment for them as you do for this?

Really you talk a load of Love sacks.

We have changed though, havent we ? We can no longer rest players, because everybody else has made us alter our league, and change how we qualify for Europe, so you are talking a load of bollox.

Just to add, I agree it has made the Pro12 better, so let us now make the Amlin better as well.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:but hey ho, certain teams from the PRL and the LNR still treat the competition with contempt, they see it as a pain in their arris,  

So if that's what you make of resting players does that not also mean that the Pro12 countries feel the same about the Pro12 when they rest players? And would you recommend the same punishment for them as you do for this?

Really you talk a load of Love sacks.

No its not love sacks its 'banter'

LordDowlais wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:'why should people fork out money to watch Cardiff Blues V Exeter 2nd/3rd's ?'

Because (I'm taking a guess) they might be Rugby fans of those two clubs?

But it goes against everything that was argued by the PRL and LNR before the big Europaen shake up, how can you have a more marketable and more competitive competition if teams are not going to tale it seriously ?

Oh!

Now you put it like that!

Lol

Point taken, it doesn't happen any more. It does for teams of all 3 leagues, as it did before, but let's ignore that

But just to be clear, prior to this season you believe Pro12 clubs were guilty of treating the Pro12 with contempt and seeing it as a pain in the arse, and you would have punished them with docking their money?

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Point taken, it doesn't happen any more. It does for teams of all 3 leagues, as it did before, but let's ignore that

But just to be clear, prior to this season you believe Pro12 clubs were guilty of treating the Pro12 with contempt and seeing it as a pain in the arse, and you would have punished them with docking of money.

Yes, I do agree with you, it used to boil my pee seeing weakend sides every week, I was also very miffed at the start of this season when AWJ seemed to be rested by the Ospreys. Look, I am not arguing, my league is now better for it, the change has done us good, but lets do the same with the Amlin cup as well, lets change that to make it better, firstly make teams take it a bit more serious, that would get the ball rolling.

Ok, that's all fair enough to me.

Just one small point, you're not agreeing with me because I never felt that about the Pro12. I just wanted to make sure that you believed the arguments you are making about the Challenge Cup should also apply to the 3 leagues as you absolutely will see resting of players domestically just the same as the CC.

If everyone is being docked money where is it all gonna go? Maybe it could be divided amongst the posters of this board