Absolutely taking the urine

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Oct 2014, 8:15 am

First topic message reminder :

So much for this new European utopia we are supposed to be having, so much for the excuse of making the second tier of the European cup more attractive and competitive, none of the French sides put out a first team in the second tier competition, I was watching the Blues game and it was a farce. But of course, who can we complain to, now that this brave new world are run by the clubs ? We cannot go to the ERC to complain as they are not running the competition, where do we go ? This second tier competition is not worth a w@nk, I would have much rather seen the top tier with the likes of Cardiff and Edinburgh in it rather than watching them wiping the floor with the French 3rd choice teams in a take it or leave it for the French second tier comp.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
HongKongCherry wrote:A simple way to make the competition more attractive is to reward the winner appropriately. Instead of having this farcical play off at the end of the season to see who fills the remaining spot for the Champions Cup, they should simply let the Challenge Cup winner take a spot. To add a further incentive, if the winner already qualifies via their league finish, then instead of rewarding another team from their league, the runner up of the Challenge should get the spot.

Two Challenge Cupper idiot sides in the Biggest Bestestest Baddest Most Meritocratic Rugby Competition in the History of the World??!!!!!!!!!!

Two of them? Maybe two Pro12 minnows??? Maybe two Italian sides??? In the ERCC by right???

Get a grip of yourself! The talk is going to your head

You mock the competition yet I thought that the ERCC first round was competitive and was in general of good quality.

It's interesting that all 3 Irish sides were losing at half time with two of them going on to win.

I mock it because I'm consistent and always have been.

I mocked the Amlin too and was often called up on it because certain people felt I was being pompous and arrogant and that my attitude was informed by self-satisfied Leinster smugness.

It was nothing of the sort and the extreme opposite.

I mock anything that seeks to mock 'small people' - and that usually happens through avenues of affected concern, affected affection for and affected interest in the exploits of little people whilst inventing endless methods to keep them 'little'.
The 2nd tier contest is designed for 'little people' with the express purpose of hoping that most of them get 'competitve' in it amongst themselves, and perhaps competitive enough to forget they want to be in the Top tier contest at all - God love'em, the little things

Sure they'll love beating French academy sides by cricket scores down there whilst we at the current top lure the Big Daddy financiers, sponsors, advertisers, TV companies and unlimited salary caps here to make sure we never have to worry about tier 2 ever again.

The French don't buy the competition (the hardly buy the Tier 1 one either!). They feel The Challenge Cup is a 'mock'-up contest and therefore use it for such purposes....and 'mock' it with the sides they give to it.

And on your comment: "It's interesting that all 3 Irish sides were losing at half time with two of them going on to win." I'd have to ask you to elaborate on that before I can understand the point you're making.

You mock the Amlin yet your team Leinster have never taken part. Self-satisfied Leinster smugness? I wouldn't disagree with that point of view. When you are in the Amlin there is definitely a desire to be in the top tier but you wouldn't know that. There is an element of snobbiness as you see the Amlin as beneath you.

The ones keeping the "little" men little as you call them are themselves. The way a club improves by doing things better - whether that's on the field or off it. I believe that a lot of these "little" men as you call them have been complacent and not pushing themselves to succeed. The gulf in salary in not so vast that it's an unbridgable gap.

Glasgow surprised me - they hammered Bath. Got to give credit where credit is due - well done. I personally think they have been given the much needed incentive to succeed. They knew they needed to improve if they wanted to be competitive and retain their place in the ERCC.

It's not as if the Pro12 clubs are the only ones missing out on the ERCC, there is a hunger for the likes of Gloucester to be in the ERCC next season.

They won't get top tier rugby unless they work for it - no longer will it be handed to them on a platter.

The way I see it - you want as many pro12 sides in the top tier european competition irrelevant of form.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:19 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:

Not really. I try to live in the real world where evil geniuses are rare and generally not involved in rugby. I don't try and pin every bad idea on one group I'm trying to demonise. Usually I try, and I do try, to deal with facts rather than made up theories that fit my world view.

Are you sure? Peter Stringer is so obviously Mini Me - so does that make Keith Wood Dr Evil?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:20 pm

Leinster have won the amlin I'll have you know.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:39 pm

True but they have never been in the Amlin pool stages and wouldn't have been in the Amlin quarter finals if it wasn't for the drop down rule.

The drop down ruling was one of the most idiotic rulings by the ERC. I am glad it's been dropped.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:45 pm

beshocked wrote:True but they have never been in the Amlin pool stages and wouldn't have been in the Amlin quarter finals if it wasn't for the drop down rule.

The drop down ruling was one of the most idiotic rulings by the ERC. I am glad it's been dropped.

Agreed, but it did suddenly make the knockout stages relevant to Pro12 fans.

The other stupid thing was best runners up - which ERCC should have done away with by having just 16 teams in 4 pools.

by nathan Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:46 pm

well at least the conversation has changed from "why are there crap teams in the top tier" to why "are there crap teams in the 2nd tier". Shows some progress.

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:50 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Notch wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anyone who thinks the playoffs are good idea or that the winner of the Challenge Cup shouldn't automatically qualify for the Champions Cup. Unfortunately it's one of those things the unions wanted and we're stuck with it.

I thought the clubs wanted playoffs.

The current qualification structure came out of the meeting between the unions and the IRB recommended moderator that the PRL weren't invited to. Not every bad idea comes out of the PRL.

http://www.rte.ie/documents/sport/mediators-statement.pdf

I have just read that link, and it is exactly the same as what the PRL/LNR wanted, just becuase the union folk were there, it does not mean it is what the union wanted, why would the celts give home advantage to the English or French every year FFS, this just basicaly shows how the unions from the Pro12 were bent over. If it is what the unions wanted, we would still be playing in the HC under its previous guise, without any changes.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:53 pm

nathan funny and true.

Londontiger I guess but Pro12 fans evidently think their teams are too good for the Pro12 so why would they care about the Amlin anyway?

Best runners up isn't quite as bad now because the pools are more balanced than in previous seasons.

In my opinion it devalues a competition when teams can just drop down from another competition - waltz in and win which is what happened in four out of the last five Amlin's.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote: If it is what the unions wanted, we would still be playing in the HC under its previous guise, without any changes.

Well of course. that was having yopur cake, paid for by someone else, eating it then stealing more cake.

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:03 pm

beshocked wrote:

In my opinion it devalues a competition when teams can just drop down from another competition - waltz in and win which is what happened in four out of the last five Amlin's.

Hardly devalues the comp. Its harder to come second in a Hcup group than get through the Amlin group stages so if anything their route to the Amlin quarters is justified.

Im sure Stade Francais would prefer to play a decent team like Leinster in the final than a second rate English side.

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:04 pm

beshocked wrote:nathan funny and true.

Londontiger I guess but Pro12 fans evidently think their teams are too good for the Pro12 so why would they care about the Amlin anyway?
Best runners up isn't quite as bad now because the pools are more balanced than in previous seasons.

In my opinion it devalues a competition when teams can just drop down from another competition - waltz in and win which is what happened in four out of the last five Amlin's.

Nope, you are wrong again, I want other unions to take the Amlin more serious, to make it more marketable and more competitive.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:05 pm

GunsGerms wrote:

Im sure Stade Francais would prefer to play a decent team like Leinster in the final than a second rate English side.

Want some cod to go with that massive chip on your shoulder.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:11 pm

Not if they want to win silverware!

Of course it devalues the competition - it means you can fail and waltz into another cup.

Depends on how tough a group is though in general I don't think it's that hard to finish 2nd in a HC group.

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:11 pm

Come on, am I wrong? How can the reigning Heineken cup champions devalue the Amlin?

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:13 pm

The only one's devualing the Amlin are the unions who allow their clubs to put out 2nds instead of their first choice players.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:15 pm

Heineken cup champions are Toulon so not sure I see your point.....

It's devalued because you could fail in the HC yet get free entry to the Amlin quarter finals. 4 out of the 5 Amlin cup winners were from the HC - hardly endorsing the Amlin itself is it?

I would also say it's unfair on the sides in the Amlin cup.

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:18 pm

Leinster beat all teams they played in the Amlin by 20 points or more that year. That devalues the competition? You're gas.

Leinster were reigning Heino champs the year they won the Amlin. Though I'm aware of course that you know that.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:19 pm

Lorddowlais we want the same thing - a more competitive top tier which we have now and like you I want a more competitive 2nd tier but it's up to individual teams themselves to take it seriously.

More Leinster are the greatest talk? sigh gunsgerms...

Well yes - if a team who failed to qualify for the HC quarter finals can waltz in and thump everyone in the Amlin it doesn't show the competition in a good light does it?

There needs to be less of a gulf in the quality - the drop down basically showed the Amlin cup as not as strong as it should be.

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:31 pm

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais we want the same thing - a more competitive top tier which we have now and like you I want a more competitive 2nd tier but it's up to individual teams themselves to take it seriously.

More Leinster are the greatest talk? sigh gunsgerms...

Well yes - if a team who failed in the HC can waltz in and thump everyone in the Amlin it doesn't show the competition in a good light does it?

Then why wasn't it discussed when we had all the nonsense to begin with ? Oh, yes we did, we were told that the second tier comp needed more sides from the Pro12 to make it a more attaractive competition, but what happens, nobody takes it serious anyway, it is a farce, and the unions who allow it should be made to answer for it.It was just the excuse needed to be a able to meddle with how the Pro12 qualified for Europe in the first place.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:35 pm

Lorddowlais but the Pro12 sides are taking it seriously aren't they?

It's the French who aren't but that's been the same for some time!

It's a twofold thing - strengthen the top tier which I think has happened and strengthen the 2nd tier - I think we will see in time.

With no drop down (I assume this is the case) it means teams currently in the Amlin have a shot at silverware.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:37 pm

Is anyone stupid enough to believe that the whole farce we had was to do with anything other than money and power - with both sides anxious to maximise both as much as they could?

As to the second tier, English clubs have generally taken it seriously - none of the other 6 Nations teams ever did, unless they were parachuted into it having been unable to qualify for the main 1/4 finals.

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:38 pm

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais but the Pro12 sides are taking it seriously aren't they?

It's the French who aren't but that's been the same for some time!

It's a twofold thing - strengthen the top tier which I think has happened and strengthen the 2nd tier - I think we will see in time.

With no drop down (I assume this is the case) it means teams currently in the Amlin have a shot at silverware.

Yes, the Pro12 are taking it seriously, it is other that are not, well say others, the French. They have been doing it for too long now, and something needs to be done about it.

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:39 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Is anyone stupid enough to believe that the whole farce we had was to do with anything other than money and power - with both sides anxious to maximise both as much as they could?

As to the second tier, English clubs have generally taken it seriously - none of the other 6 Nations teams ever did, unless they were parachuted into it having been unable to qualify for the main 1/4 finals.

At last, we have somebody from another perspective rather than the Celts seeing this.

by Guest Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:43 pm

Cut him some slack. Must be so annoying for someone desperate for the new tournaments to fail to see how well the weekend went.

Not seeing any criticisms of the Challenge Cup that didn't also apply to the Amlin? Only the first round, it'll get better. It's easy to have a positive outlook when you're not so bitter.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:53 pm

Londontiger you are right. It was all about money and power on both sides but we have to do the best with what we've got now.

Fuzzy Dunlop agreed.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Is anyone stupid enough to believe that the whole farce we had was to do with anything other than money and power - with both sides anxious to maximise both as much as they could?

As to the second tier, English clubs have generally taken it seriously - none of the other 6 Nations teams ever did, unless they were parachuted into it having been unable to qualify for the main 1/4 finals.

At last, we have somebody from another perspective rather than the Celts seeing this.

You do realise I am accusing the Celtic unions of having exactly the same motives too?

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:55 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Is anyone stupid enough to believe that the whole farce we had was to do with anything other than money and power - with both sides anxious to maximise both as much as they could?

As to the second tier, English clubs have generally taken it seriously - none of the other 6 Nations teams ever did, unless they were parachuted into it having been unable to qualify for the main 1/4 finals.

At last, we have somebody from another perspective rather than the Celts seeing this.

You do realise I am accusing the Celtic unions of having exactly the same motives too?

Yes, but that is what, well myself at least, have been trying to say since day one, although I still agree with others, the whole setup still isn't fair.

by whocares Mon 20 Oct 2014, 4:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais but the Pro12 sides are taking it seriously aren't they?

It's the French who aren't but that's been the same for some time!

It's a twofold thing - strengthen the top tier which I think has happened and strengthen the 2nd tier - I think we will see in time.

With no drop down (I assume this is the case) it means teams currently in the Amlin have a shot at silverware.

Yes, the Pro12 are taking it seriously, it is other that are not, well say others, the French. They have been doing it for too long now, and something needs to be done about it.

Sure thing. Go ahead ban them from the CC so that you can enjoy watching blues play against some spanish semi amateur outfit. You are not frustrated because Grenoble, Brive or Stade Francais sent development teams but just because your precious team has to lower itself to play against the european rif raf. At least blues has a good chance to do well at euro stage, enjoy the moment and like Fuzzy said it will get better.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 4:08 pm

You talk about fairness. Surely that is subjective?

I personally don't think it was fair that Pro12 sides were auto qualifying for the HC. This has now been changed and now we see a much more competitive top tier European competition.

As for the lack of competitiveness in the Amlin - we will see if the Amlin sides can reinvigorate the competition in time. You are right - the French are not taking it seriously but at least the Pro12 sides are as are most English.

I do think the playoff between an English and French side which is meant to happen next year is unfair though.

Also you could argue the salary cap is unfair but there are ways that the Welsh can protect their players - e.g. by centrally contracting like what it looks like the WRU are trying to do.

by VinceWLB Mon 20 Oct 2014, 4:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais but the Pro12 sides are taking it seriously aren't they?

It's the French who aren't but that's been the same for some time!

It's a twofold thing - strengthen the top tier which I think has happened and strengthen the 2nd tier - I think we will see in time.

With no drop down (I assume this is the case) it means teams currently in the Amlin have a shot at silverware.

Yes, the Pro12 are taking it seriously, it is other that are not, well say others, the French. They have been doing it for too long now, and something needs to be done about it.

Well Zebre rotated a bit so did the Blues but i would say pro12 sides are taking it a lot more seriously than the French teams.

That said even pro12 sides will now take the league more seriously than the Challenge cup, because top 14 has 2 more teams in it, they feel the need to rotate more than pro12 sides.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 4:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Is anyone stupid enough to believe that the whole farce we had was to do with anything other than money and power - with both sides anxious to maximise both as much as they could?

As to the second tier, English clubs have generally taken it seriously - none of the other 6 Nations teams ever did, unless they were parachuted into it having been unable to qualify for the main 1/4 finals.

At last, we have somebody from another perspective rather than the Celts seeing this.

You do realise I am accusing the Celtic unions of having exactly the same motives too?

Yes, but that is what, well myself at least, have been trying to say since day one, although I still agree with others, the whole setup still isn't fair.

The old set-up was not fair.

The current set-up is not fair.

Which is fairest depends on where you are standing.

by Cyril Mon 20 Oct 2014, 4:46 pm

This thread is hilarious Laugh

by TJ Mon 20 Oct 2014, 5:54 pm

The second tier is Poopie and meaningless. But then we knew it would be.

by wayne Mon 20 Oct 2014, 5:56 pm

The old set-up was not fair.

The current set-up is not fair.

Which is fairest depends on where you are standing.[/quote
LT, I agree with this, to my standing position, I prefer the current set up, We (Regions) have more influence, more money, it is a more meritocratic competition and finally the WRU have less of the 2 things that the Regions have more of

by TJ Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:05 pm

And only one welsh team will be in the top tier. You think that fair? 6 english, one welsh.

by TJ Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:07 pm

Personally I would still prefer a 39 team comp - 9 byes so 30 teams play off to give 15 + 9 byes gives 24 for the cup, then play off bowl and shield. Everyone gets a chance at the big time every year. truly meritocratic, no need for special rules for different nations. Everyone has the same chance every year

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:09 pm

TJ wrote:Personally I would still prefer a 39 team comp - 9 byes so 30 teams play off to give 15 + 9 byes gives 24 for the cup, then play off bowl and shield. Everyone gets a chance at the big time every year. truly meritocratic, no need for special rules for different nations. Everyone has the same chance every year

24 is a dumb number. Unless you are planning on having groups of 6.

by **Notch** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:09 pm

TJ wrote:The second tier is Poopie and meaningless. But then we knew it would be.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect sides whose future might depend on avoiding relegation to contribute meaningfully to other competitions. I suppose if you're a Pro12 side you just look at it as a chance to get some fans in and experiment with configurations.

I hope it livens up in the knockout stages but they really, really need to go back to the old system of the winner going up a tier. Give it some credibility for god's sake.

by TJ Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:37 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
TJ wrote:Personally I would still prefer a 39 team comp - 9 byes so 30 teams play off to give 15 + 9 byes gives 24 for the cup, then play off bowl and shield. Everyone gets a chance at the big time every year. truly meritocratic, no need for special rules for different nations. Everyone has the same chance every year

24 is a dumb number. Unless you are planning on having groups of 6.

Why? 6 groups of 4, winner and 2 best losers? makes 8 for the knockouts - remember all the rubbish teams would be out by this point so no easy groups. Makes as much sense and 20 - maybe more

Its the idea of widening access ( 39 teams) and everyone having both a chance at the big time and a chance of silverware every season that attracts me to this sort of format.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:42 pm

TJ wrote:And only one welsh team will be in the top tier. You think that fair? 6 english, one welsh.

Yup.

by wayne Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:43 pm

TJ wrote:And only one welsh team will be in the top tier. You think that fair? 6 english, one welsh.

TJ, apart from Treviso (I agree with the every country having at least 1 qualifier) the best 20 teams in Europe are in the RCC and if it means my team Os don't qualify then so be it.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Notch wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anyone who thinks the playoffs are good idea or that the winner of the Challenge Cup shouldn't automatically qualify for the Champions Cup. Unfortunately it's one of those things the unions wanted and we're stuck with it.

I thought the clubs wanted playoffs.

The current qualification structure came out of the meeting between the unions and the IRB recommended moderator that the PRL weren't invited to. Not every bad idea comes out of the PRL.

http://www.rte.ie/documents/sport/mediators-statement.pdf

I have just read that link, and it is exactly the same as what the PRL/LNR wanted, just becuase the union folk were there, it does not mean it is what the union wanted, why would the celts give home advantage to the English or French every year FFS, this just basicaly shows how the unions from the Pro12 were bent over. If it is what the unions wanted, we would still be playing in the HC under its previous guise, without any changes.

Sorry, can't have clear in my point. Before that meeting the PRL suggestion (based on the French suggestion) was 6 from each league and the winners of the two competitions going through. That meeting, which the PRL weren't invited to, came up with the current playoff with a 7th automatic qualification from the Pro12. So no, it wasn't exactly the same as what the PRL/LNR wanted.

It may have come from the moderator, or the WRU or the RFU or the FFR, or one of the others, but they all agreed on it. And then the PRL agreed on it 5 months later. But the PRL can't be blamed for coming up with it.

It's a stupid idea but I wonder if people would prefer 6 from the pro12 and the two winners qualifying.

by Guest Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:49 pm

TJ wrote:

Why? 6 groups of 4, winner and 2 best losers? makes 8 for the knockouts - remember all the rubbish teams would be out by this point so no easy groups. Makes as much sense and 20 - maybe more

Will all the rubbish teams really be gone by the group stages though? Seems to me like there'd be more rubbish teams given the realistic likelihood of upsets in the play off matches. A full season in a top quality league (which all 3 are) is a much better benchmark of quality than a one off knock-out qualifier.

by TJ Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:51 pm

Wayne - not by a long way are the best 20 teams in Europe in the cup. Take Bordeaux for example. 3rd in the french league, stuffing teams for fun ( unless they play their thirds in the second tier comp). Not in the cup. Castre however are in the cup despite being rubbish this year.

by TJ Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:54 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:True but they have never been in the Amlin pool stages and wouldn't have been in the Amlin quarter finals if it wasn't for the drop down rule.

The drop down ruling was one of the most idiotic rulings by the ERC. I am glad it's been dropped.

Agreed, but it did suddenly make the knockout stages relevant to Pro12 fans.
.

No it didn't.

by **Notch** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:55 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:f people would prefer 6 from the pro12 and the two winners qualifying.

No, because that is even more unreasonable. A league of four nations gets the same as a league of one? That is fundamentally not going to be accepted. The last place should just be for the Amlin winner or the next highest unqualified team from the nation or league of the Amlin winner and scrap the playoffs.

The winner of the Heineken should always qualify but that at the expense of the bottom-ranked qualifying team from each league. So if the team that finishes 8th in England wins it, bad luck to the team that finished 6th.

Ideally I would say 5-5-8 and the two winners would be the fairest for everybody but this isn't about fair shares or distributions and never has been.

by Cyril Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:58 pm

As long as it's leagues and unions in the same melting pot you will never keep everyone happy.

Everyone thinks they're right.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:58 pm

It has but 'fairness' isn't absolute so what we have is a hodge-lodge compromise of various versions of 'fair'.

I would have that qualification though (Challenge cup gaining a spot, winner of HEC taking a spot from their league). Without doubt the Challenge Cup winner should be in automatically.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:01 pm

TJ wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:True but they have never been in the Amlin pool stages and wouldn't have been in the Amlin quarter finals if it wasn't for the drop down rule.

The drop down ruling was one of the most idiotic rulings by the ERC. I am glad it's been dropped.

Agreed, but it did suddenly make the knockout stages relevant to Pro12 fans.
.

No it didn't.

I suggest you go back and have a look at the activity from Leinster fans when they won it. Blues fans talk about winning it now. Just because the Scots had no involvement in recent times does mean that others didn't have their interest piqued.

by TJ Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:03 pm

5,5 8 plus 2 would have been much fairer tho ;-) Oh - and fairness can be an absolute but its hard to see from an interested observer. Thats getting into some deep philosophy tho

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