Absolutely taking the urine

First topic message reminder :

So much for this new European utopia we are supposed to be having, so much for the excuse of making the second tier of the European cup more attractive and competitive, none of the French sides put out a first team in the second tier competition, I was watching the Blues game and it was a farce. But of course, who can we complain to, now that this brave new world are run by the clubs ? We cannot go to the ERC to complain as they are not running the competition, where do we go ? This second tier competition is not worth a w@nk, I would have much rather seen the top tier with the likes of Cardiff and Edinburgh in it rather than watching them wiping the floor with the French 3rd choice teams in a take it or leave it for the French second tier comp.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Ok, that's all fair enough to me.

Just one small point, you're not agreeing with me because I never felt that about the Pro12. I just wanted to make sure that you believed the arguments you are making about the Challenge Cup should also apply to the 3 leagues as you absolutely will see resting of players domestically just the same as the CC.

If everyone is being docked money where is it all gonna go? Maybe it could be divided amongst the posters of this board

That was just an idea, but we need to come up with something to make teams take it more serious.

Surely player welfare dictates that no club can play its best team every game? In reality, if you are in the lower half of the AP or Top14, the main aim is to stay in the top league and build towards midtable safety. I can't see how any rules or sanctions will change that.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Surely player welfare dictates that no club can play its best team every game? In reality, if you are in the lower half of the AP or Top14, the main aim is to stay in the top league and build towards midtable safety. I can't see how any rules or sanctions will change that.

Well, they managed to change our league.

I don't believe any team walks onto the field not caring if they win or lose, sometimes you only have the squad that you have so the coaches have to make a call to rest players who might be carrying a small injury to fight another battle on another day.

I still think all teams take it seriously whether its the 1st XV or 3rds



LordDowlais
Well, they managed to change our league

It needed changing, and what you have now is better for the Pro12.

LordDowlais wrote:We have changed though, havent we ? We can no longer rest players, because everybody else has made us alter our league, and change how we qualify for Europe, so you are talking a load of bollox.

Just to add, I agree it has made the Pro12 better, so let us now make the Amlin better as well.

Actually you can rest players in the league. And you WILL be resting players in some of the competitions that you play in, same as everyone else. Also, your league hasn't altered; it's exactly the same as it was. Qualification for Europe is the thing that has changed, not the league, which may well effect how teams treat the league (or not).

Now you're making a knee-jerk over-reaction (possibly trying to make some point or other that has got lost along the way) to a single round of the competition where 4 of the teams from the country you're complaining about won.  I can't figure out if you think that all teams should play their strongest team for every game (in which case, tough titties, as my mother-in-law would say) or they must prioritise Europe over the league (even though you seemed to be offended when I said this is what you're suggesting).

You want to make the 2nd tier better? Great, but why not wait a season to see what it's like.  Then you can look at what improvements can be made (punishing teams for not resting when you want them to rest isn't realistic).  You could punish teams by reducing their cut from whichever competition they rested players in but that would have to apply to the leagues as well.  

It would make more sense to reduce the automatic payments to the leagues and increase the performance payouts instead.  but then you have the problem with the richer clubs doing better and getting even more money.[/quote]

TightHEAD wrote:I don't believe any team walks onto the field not caring if they win or lose, sometimes you only have the squad that you have so the coaches have to make a call to rest players who might be carrying a small injury to fight another battle on another day.

I still think all teams take it seriously whether its the 1st XV or 3rds



LordDowlais
Well, they managed to change our league

It needed changing, and what you have now is better for the Pro12.

I'm not arguing weather it needed changing or not, I am just saying it was changed, thus so could the Amlin, and I am not suggesting that a player personally does not take it serious, but the club as a whole does not when they put inferior sides out, than what they could.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:We have changed though, havent we ? We can no longer rest players, because everybody else has made us alter our league, and change how we qualify for Europe, so you are talking a load of bollox.

Just to add, I agree it has made the Pro12 better, so let us now make the Amlin better as well.

Actually you can rest players in the league. And you WILL be resting players in some of the competitions that you play in, same as everyone else. Also, your league hasn't altered; it's exactly the same as it was. Qualification for Europe is the thing that has changed, not the league, which may well effect how teams treat the league (or not).

Now you're making a knee-jerk over-reaction (possibly trying to make some point or other that has got lost along the way) to a single round of the competition where 4 of the teams from the country you're complaining about won.  I can't figure out if you think that all teams should play their strongest team for every game (in which case, tough titties, as my mother-in-law would say) or they must prioritise Europe over the league (even though you seemed to be offended when I said this is what you're suggesting).

You want to make the 2nd tier better? Great, but why not wait a season to see what it's like.  Then you can look at what improvements can be made (punishing teams for not resting when you want them to rest isn't realistic).  You could punish teams by reducing their cut from whichever competition they rested players in but that would have to apply to the leagues as well.  

It would make more sense to reduce the automatic payments to the leagues and increase the performance payouts instead.  but then you have the problem with the richer clubs doing better and getting even more money.

[/quote]

Seriously, please, what are you on about, the way we had to qualify from our league was changed because everyone else deemed it unfair, and the top of the argument was how we could rest players as we did not need to take our league seriously, I am not making any knee jerk reactions, I was told that we needed to make the second tier more of a product, and having more of the better Pro12 sides in it, rather than Italian and Romanian sides would do this, now we have that, there are clubs who STILL do not give it the respect it is needed to make it more of a product, the sides from France that won were against 2nd sides from England, so do not try and pad out your argument with that stat, the mid table English and French clubs with top six aspirations and the bottom of the league French and English sides with avoiding relegation attitudes see the Amlin as a competition they could do without, I have no problem with this, but if they want to treat it as so, then the clubs themselves should be treated as though by who ever is running the damn thing, and perhaps they should not get the money they feel they deserve whilst treating the competition with contempt.

LordDowlais wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I don't believe any team walks onto the field not caring if they win or lose, sometimes you only have the squad that you have so the coaches have to make a call to rest players who might be carrying a small injury to fight another battle on another day.

I still think all teams take it seriously whether its the 1st XV or 3rds



LordDowlais
Well, they managed to change our league

It needed changing, and what you have now is better for the Pro12.

I'm not arguing weather it needed changing or not, I am just saying it was changed, thus so could the Amlin, and I am not suggesting that a player personally does not take it serious, but the club as a whole does not when they put inferior sides out, than what they could.

But how do you know the current condition of the players rested?

It's pure speculation that these clubs don't take it seriously, every player that took to the pitch for the teams you mentioned are Pro rugby players.

I can see where LD is coming from, although I don't agree with everything he says, last Saturday night I went on the Dragons topic and said how well they had done in beating SF on their own patch, it was later that evening on the Os website that they had beaten SFs 2nds and 3rds, and every other team in that competition would be playing the same SF players because SF HAD ONLY NOMINATED 2nds and 3rds for THIS COMPETITION, THEY HAD NO INTENTION FROM THE START TO PUT ANY DECENT PLAYERS IN, there is a rule in poofball of bringing the game into DISREPUTE, IMO SF have done this.
During the negotiations MARATHON for the now RCC, it was mentioned about there being different team numbers for each of the 2 or 3 competitions, one such suggestion was the numbers qualifying for the premier competition being 5,5,8 and IIRC it was treated well, and the winners of the 2 competitions, that would have at least made some teams take this competition SERIOUSLY. For some of you with poor memories I will refresh what was said in season 2011/12 when the Ospreys played Northampton in the LV cup at the Brewery Field, Bridgend and Saints put out practically a full team and we put out a few 1st teamers who were coming back from injury or suspension and the rest were 2nds, 3rds and Academy players, Northampton won 32-22, the reason Northampton put out all those players was the English winners of that competition were guaranteed HC qualification. I wonder who vetoed that suggestion? Doesn't need much thinking about does it

TightHEAD wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I don't believe any team walks onto the field not caring if they win or lose, sometimes you only have the squad that you have so the coaches have to make a call to rest players who might be carrying a small injury to fight another battle on another day.

I still think all teams take it seriously whether its the 1st XV or 3rds



LordDowlais
Well, they managed to change our league

It needed changing, and what you have now is better for the Pro12.

I'm not arguing weather it needed changing or not, I am just saying it was changed, thus so could the Amlin, and I am not suggesting that a player personally does not take it serious, but the club as a whole does not when they put inferior sides out, than what they could.

But how do you know the current condition of the players rested?

It's pure speculation that these clubs don't take it seriously, every player that took to the pitch for the teams you mentioned are Pro rugby players.

Clubs who make nigh on 10 to 15 changes for the Amlin, it's not speculation, it's fact, French and English clubs are not taking it seriously. The players might be pro, but they are 2nd or 3rd choice players, sometimes acadamy players.

"it's fact, French and English clubs are not taking it seriously"


In your opinion!

TightHEAD wrote:"it's fact, French and English clubs are not taking it seriously"


In your opinion!

Come on TH, even you can see that is what's going on, as posted above by Wayne, SF have nominated their 2nd's and 3rd's for the Amlin, this for me is not on.

Of course teams don't take it seriously in the second tier. Edinburgh beat Bordeaux (in France )who are currently flying high in the league. No way was that a result from their top team.

Can we stop calling it the Amlin please!

Cyril wrote:Can we stop calling it the Amlin please!

Quite.

Stade might've nominated 2nd or 3rd choice players, but a team with Ioane in and Steyn in the 23 isn't too bad. They still should've turned us over and to be honest the group isn't that tough with Newcastle not being in particularly great form either and a qualifier always going to be in there. They need to give fringe players a chance so they can assess their squad, as well.

Risca Rev wrote:

Cyril wrote:Can we stop calling it the Amlin please!

Quite.

Stade might've nominated 2nd or 3rd choice players, but a team with Ioane in and Steyn in the 23 isn't too bad. They still should've turned us over and to be honest the group isn't that tough with Newcastle not being in particularly great form either and a qualifier always going to be in there. They need to give fringe players a chance so they can assess their squad, as well.

These genius forums also fail to recognise the Dragons players unavailable for various reasons, as well as the ones lost early in the match... Surprised that some of these French teams have squads as weak as this though. Toulouse, Toulon, Racing, etc could make 12 changes and still have a pretty good team.

TJ wrote:Of course teams don't take it seriously in the second tier. Edinburgh beat Bordeaux (in France )who are currently flying high in the league.  No way was that a result from their top team.

To be fair , UBB did field a decent amount of regulars (see my post in the game thread) including the outhalves. They did start a few guys that needed gametime but most were from the pro squad (ok 3 were U21 but only one started). Sadly they didnt perform but the aim was still to win it and the coaching staff was rightly disapointed. So not their "best" team but a development one either. Nothing like stade francais who even fielded a youngster who doesnt even have a contract ( getting paid 40€ per win!) at full back.

UBB thus did not take the game or competition seriously by playing a significantly weakened team. No way would their full team have been beaten at home by Edinburgh

Make the money in the 2nd tier euro comp more performance oriented.

Simples.

And please, can you stop complaining? The aim of shakin up Europe was not to make the second tier comp better.

It was for the qualification and money to be more even by league for euro comps overall.

Regarding putting out reserve teams etc, judge the 2nd tier comp by who makes the semi finals, not team sheets in round 1 alone.

quinsforever wrote:And please, can you stop complaining? The aim of shakin up Europe was not to make the second tier comp better.

It was for the qualification and money to be more even by league for euro comps overall.

Regarding putting out reserve teams etc, judge the 2nd tier comp by who makes the semi finals, not team sheets in round 1 alone.

I wonder will the new company have the bottle to reprimand/fine teams for putting out weakened teams?

quinsforever wrote:And please, can you stop complaining? The aim of shakin up Europe was not to make the second tier comp better.

Really - thats what the PRL and thier apologists said consistently

quinsforever wrote:

It was for the qualification and money to be more even by league for euro comps overall.

 Well its badly failed in that as well hasn't it :-) Qualification is far less even and fair, financially is worse as well.

What we are saying is despite all the PRL apologists saying how much more meaningfull it would be its still dire and worthless

TJ wrote:UBB thus did not take the game or competition seriously by playing a significantly weakened team.  No way would their full team have been beaten at home by Edinburgh

One team has a squad of 40 pros of which "only" 25-30 have been playing in more than a few games thanks to little injuries. Those 3rd choice props and flankers that were not used need to play on time to time as well, and guess what, not gonna be against Clermont in front of 26k people but rather in a rather unfashionable european game in front of 3000 people. The other reality is that appart from Toulon and Clermont, the average T14 team dont have that much depth.

Besides UBB keeps on rotating and some of their key players will return against London Welsh (Avei, Marais, Connors, Talebula etc) so they are taking this competition seriously.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:And please, can you stop complaining? The aim of shakin up Europe was not to make the second tier comp better.

It was for the qualification and money to be more even by league for euro comps overall.

Regarding putting out reserve teams etc, judge the 2nd tier comp by who makes the semi finals, not team sheets in round 1 alone.

I wonder will the new company have the bottle to reprimand/fine teams for putting out weakened teams?

Do you think they should?

The previous company didn't and the board of the current one is the same...so I doubt it.

Well it has, sort of, happened before -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/european/1837537.stm

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/40526.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2431098/European-ban-for-Agen.html

The accusation there was that they lost on purpose, not that they fielded a weak side. There is a big difference between rotating players and actually not tackling properly or deliberately fouling up tries.

Unless people are suggesting some of these teams have the players throwing the game. I didn't watch any of the games so I couldn't say.

The second tier competition is NOT a development competition, the clubs get paid money to participate in it which they are taking, if they are taking the money, then they should show the competition the respect it deserves, the English (not all) and the French clubs who put out academy and fringe or 2nd string players just to give them game time should be made to answer for it.

Answer how? Should teams be made to say at the start of the season who is their 1st choice team and squad and be forced to play them in all comps? Teams have to prove injuries and ignore fatigue. How would you go about it?

TJ wrote:What we are saying is despite all the PRL apologists saying how much more meaningfull it would be its still dire and worthless

I am glad somebody else has said this as well as me, I thought I was on a one man crusade yesterday, debating with all the apologists.

I knew I was not making it up, we were told stuff like, if there were more Pro12 sides in it instead of weaker Italian and Romanian sides it would be more marketable, more competitive, better product, and we still have the same shoite going on, these clubs take the money generated from it, so they should take it seriously, and when they do, we can get all of what they were saying at the start of all this chaos.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Answer how? Should teams be made to say at the start of the season who is their 1st choice team and squad and be forced to play them in all comps? Teams have to prove injuries and ignore fatigue. How would you go about it?

What side ever has about 8 to 20 injuries to their first teams all in one go, I am not saying it has or will never happen, but come on, you can clearly tell when teams are not taking it seriously.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Answer how? Should teams be made to say at the start of the season who is their 1st choice team and squad and be forced to play them in all comps? Teams have to prove injuries and ignore fatigue. How would you go about it?

What side ever has about 8 to 20 injuries to their first teams all in one go, I am not saying it has or will never happen, but come on, you can clearly tell when teams are not taking it seriously.

Not my question.

LordDowlais wrote:The second tier competition is NOT a development competition, the clubs get paid money to participate in it which they are taking, if they are taking the money, then they should show the competition the respect it deserves, the English (not all) and the French clubs who put out academy and fringe or 2nd string players just to give them game time should be made to answer for it.

All this after 1 round!

Get a grip Lord, you will never change the French and after the bruising start of the AP is it any wonder a few teams rested their big guns.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:What we are saying is despite all the PRL apologists saying how much more meaningfull it would be its still dire and worthless

I am glad somebody else has said this as well as me, I thought I was on a one man crusade yesterday, debating with all the apologists.

I was there!... Was I not in your corner yesterday???

'Invisible Fly' I'll call myself from now on.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:What we are saying is despite all the PRL apologists saying how much more meaningfull it would be its still dire and worthless

I am glad somebody else has said this as well as me, I thought I was on a one man crusade yesterday, debating with all the apologists.

I was there!... Was I not in your corner yesterday???

'Invisible Fly' I'll call myself from now on.

Yes you were there,diolch yn fawr, fy brawd celtaidd.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:What we are saying is despite all the PRL apologists saying how much more meaningfull it would be its still dire and worthless

I am glad somebody else has said this as well as me, I thought I was on a one man crusade yesterday, debating with all the apologists.

I was there!... Was I not in your corner yesterday???

'Invisible Fly' I'll call myself from now on.

Yes you were there,diolch yn fawr, fy brawd celtaidd.

Dyw e ddim yn deall Lord

It was entirely predictable that French and English teams wouldn't take the Amlin any more seriously than they have in the past - (I call it that because it is shorter than 'Challenge Cup' and the genius who thought up the names of the two competitions gave them both the same ERCC abbreviation). The changes to the PRO12 European qualification only accentuate that ambivalence.

The incentive is to put out development teams against tougher P12 opposition to harden their young players. Since the P12 doesn't have relegation they are more likely to be of a better standard and therefore further reducing their cup chances. There isn't even the incentive of the Amlin winners qualifying for the Heineken (see brackets above) the next year. There will be no French or English Union sanction against their clubs putting out Academy teams because it is also in their interest that they have reduced the other four nations exposure at the highest level.

I did when I looked it up on a translator I'm smart, me....

SecretFly wrote:I did when I looked it up on a translator  I'm smart, me....

Da Iawn, Hedfan

wayne wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:What we are saying is despite all the PRL apologists saying how much more meaningfull it would be its still dire and worthless

I am glad somebody else has said this as well as me, I thought I was on a one man crusade yesterday, debating with all the apologists.

I was there!... Was I not in your corner yesterday???

'Invisible Fly' I'll call myself from now on.

Yes you were there,diolch yn fawr, fy brawd celtaidd.

Dyw e ddim yn deall Lord

I know SF well, from being on here, me and him were one of the first posters/arguers on here, he will work it out. He is quite the bright one.

SecretFly wrote:I did when I looked it up on a translator  I'm smart, me....

And there you are.

The Great Aukster wrote:
The incentive is to put out development teams against tougher P12 opposition to harden their young players. Since the P12 doesn't have relegation they are more likely to be of a better standard and therefore further reducing their cup chances.

This is why I say the Pro12 sides will actually learn from and educate themselves into the same notion about the ERCCTier2 as the French.  They'll quickly realise they are shooting themselves in the foot by giving French sides their considered top players to play against, whilst the French in turn give those sides their academy hopefuls.  The academy guys learn faster, the Pro12 sides gain nothing except potentially further diluting/risking their efforts in Pro12.

So Pro12 enthusiasm for the Challenge Cup will slide into French-style apathy or cyncisim too.  They in turn will see the merit in helping their future League seasons by getting some good experience for their academy hopefuls.  The Challenge Cup will eventually become what it already is.......... curtain dressing to disguise the greater ambition to slice up Europe, resulting in one much smaller/elite/closeted/salary-cappless/unlimited foreign player numbers group of 'Super' sides that want conditions given to them which will make them immune from Tier2 thoughts entirely.

That is the current hustle and bustle.  Sides know that these few years are definitive - if you get onto the 'Super' club ladder in these next few years, resources/sponsorship/following will float your way and you'll be at a distinct advantage when the present 'controlling' conditions are dropped from the rule book.  So everyone is jostling for position and influence so that they start life on that The Sky is the Limit ladder as high as possible.  The Challenge Cup will be for the poor sod sides who didn't make it and who consign themselves to always being at the right end of their respective leagues to 'qualify' to be in it.

This is my main worry as well SF, the Pro12 side's will be like everyone else before every one else, are like the Pro12 sides, and the second tier comp will be just an European version of the LV=cup.

They need to give a euro champions cup place to the winner of the 2nd tier, which should continue to consist of the '2nd tier teams' and not have best pool runners up from the top tier come in. I doubt this will convince all French to take it seriously though, they'd need squad depth like Toulon, Clermont, etc to do so.

I the game I quoted there was a discussion on here, and my final point was who would gain MOST from that game, I said we would, if you go look at the team we put out that night and see where they are now, We gained massively from these games. Unless the format changes,
and the winner of the 2nd Tier competition AUTOMATICALLY qualifies for the top tier, this will always be a JOKE

What annoys me is, at the start we were told by the PRL and the LNR that they wanted a better "product" for the second tier, they told us, that rather than having second rate Italian and Romanian teams in it every week and having more Pro12 teams in it the "product" would be better. We were told things like, "more marketable", "better competition", but none of this has rung true because the French and certain English clubs are not taking it seriously, for me these were just excuses to have less Pro12 sides in the top tier. Look, for me I do not care how many Welsh sides are in the top tier, they all get funded the same, but if we are going to do this, then we should do it properly.

Ok, once again. Do you expect all sides to play their best side in every game? If not when are they 'allowed' to rest them?

2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd choice PRO12 sides is still better than 2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd tier Italians. Even after one round it's clear it's improved. Whether the overall has improved we'll have to wait until the end.

How many games have you (and this goes to TJ as well) have you seen to know it was 'dire'? How does it compare to the previous seasons. I ask because as far as I'm aware only one game has been televised, in the UK at least.

HammerofThunor wrote:Ok, once again.  Do you expect all sides to play their best side in every game?  If not when are they 'allowed' to rest them?

2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd choice PRO12 sides is still better than 2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd tier Italians. Even after one round it's clear it's improved.  Whether the overall has improved we'll have to wait until the end.

How many games have you (and this goes to TJ as well) have you seen to know it was 'dire'? How does it compare to the previous seasons.  I ask because as far as I'm aware only one game has been televised, in the UK at least.

I've seen a few this weekend, I watched the Gloucester match on Sky, that was a farce, but I will admit I enjoyed watching Gloucester play, I went to watch the Blues play Grenoble, that was a bigger farce, I have only seen highlights of the Dragons game, but I did not recognise ANY of the Stad Francias starting 15, so all in all a complete non event, with the teams the French put out, I then saw the teams Exeter and LW put out and just wanted to bang my head against the wall. I understand the need to rest players, but I thought that the PRL and the LNR wanted to make the second tier more of a "product". How can this happen if THEIR teams are still putting out 2nd and 3rd choice sides in the competition ?

HammerofThunor wrote:Ok, once again. Do you expect all sides to play their best side in every game? If not when are they 'allowed' to rest them?

2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd choice PRO12 sides is still better than 2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd tier Italians. Even after one round it's clear it's improved.  Whether the overall has improved we'll have to wait until the end.

How many games have you (and this goes to TJ as well) have you seen to know it was 'dire'? How does it compare to the previous seasons.  I ask because as far as I'm aware only one game has been televised, in the UK at least.

There is a slight difference to resting two or three key players, to resting your entire 1st choice match day squad.