Absolutely taking the urine

First topic message reminder :

So much for this new European utopia we are supposed to be having, so much for the excuse of making the second tier of the European cup more attractive and competitive, none of the French sides put out a first team in the second tier competition, I was watching the Blues game and it was a farce. But of course, who can we complain to, now that this brave new world are run by the clubs ? We cannot go to the ERC to complain as they are not running the competition, where do we go ? This second tier competition is not worth a w@nk, I would have much rather seen the top tier with the likes of Cardiff and Edinburgh in it rather than watching them wiping the floor with the French 3rd choice teams in a take it or leave it for the French second tier comp.

So once again are you dodging all the questions? Just answer them since you care so much about it.

What other questions are you on about then ?

You asked if I have seen any games from the second tier this weekend, and I answered you, you asked me about resting players, and I answered you. What other questions have you asked ?

LordDowlais wrote:What annoys me is, at the start we were told by the PRL and the LNR that they wanted a better "product" for the second tier, they told us, that rather than having second rate Italian and Romanian teams in it every week and having more Pro12 teams in it the "product" would be better. We were told things like, "more marketable", "better competition", but none of this has rung true because the French and certain English clubs are not taking it seriously, for me these were just excuses to have less Pro12 sides in the top tier. Look, for me I do not care how many Welsh sides are in the top tier, they all get funded the same, but if we are going to do this, then we should do it properly.

Not sure that's a fair statement. If there's a 1% increase in each then it's "more" and "better" - it isn't perfect or best, which seems to be your expectations?

Marketability - don't really know, but English, French and Italian markets have been pretty much maimtained, Welsh broadened, and Scottish and Irish reopened.

Competition - no brainer. Despite 70-14, 48-12, 55-0, previous editions with 6 "minnows" tended to give more stilted results often with Tier 1 teams fielding weaker teams than did Irish, Connacht and Glaws. There are exceptions, but fairly rare.

LD, should teams have to define their starting lineup and have to prove injuries? How would you enforce playing your strongest lineup all the time?

Most of the home wins came with a bonus point scoring win, you new this was going to happen when the teams were announced, then when you look at the teams who won away from home, if you just look at the team names, it would raise some eyebrows, but when you look at the team sheets, it tells it's own story.

No 7&1/2 wrote:LD, should teams have to define their starting lineup and have to prove injuries? How would you enforce playing your strongest lineup all the time?

It's not about playing your strongest lineup every game, it's about making nigh on 8 to 20 changes per game.

You can thank the blazeratti at the Unions who opposed a place in the top-tier European Cup going to the winner of the Challenge Cup. Hence the only way in is the league, so you can have no complaints regarding the standard of teams put out. Only a fool would name their strongest line up (ladies and germs, I give you the comedy stylings of Mr Lyn "Three Cheers for Gwent" Jones...)

So how many changes are ok?

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ok, once again.  Do you expect all sides to play their best side in every game?  If not when are they 'allowed' to rest them?

2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd choice PRO12 sides is still better than 2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd tier Italians. Even after one round it's clear it's improved.  Whether the overall has improved we'll have to wait until the end.

How many games have you (and this goes to TJ as well) have you seen to know it was 'dire'? How does it compare to the previous seasons.  I ask because as far as I'm aware only one game has been televised, in the UK at least.

I've seen a few this weekend, I watched the Gloucester match on Sky, that was a farce, but I will admit I enjoyed watching Gloucester play, I went to watch the Blues play Grenoble, that was a bigger farce, I have only seen highlights of the Dragons game, but I did not recognise ANY of the Stad Francias starting 15, so all in all a complete non event, with the teams the French put out, I then saw the teams Exeter and LW put out and just wanted to bang my head against the wall. I understand the need to rest players, but I thought that the PRL and the LNR wanted to make the second tier more of a "product". How can this happen if THEIR teams are still putting out 2nd and 3rd choice sides in the competition ?

Which ones of the 9 internationals that Exe fielded turned you into a head banger - James and Sweeney?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So how many changes are ok?

"It's not about playing your strongest lineup every game, it's about making nigh on 8 to 20 changes per game."

I guess 7.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ok, once again.  Do you expect all sides to play their best side in every game?  If not when are they 'allowed' to rest them?

2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd choice PRO12 sides is still better than 2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd tier Italians. Even after one round it's clear it's improved.  Whether the overall has improved we'll have to wait until the end.

How many games have you (and this goes to TJ as well) have you seen to know it was 'dire'? How does it compare to the previous seasons.  I ask because as far as I'm aware only one game has been televised, in the UK at least.

I've seen a few this weekend, I watched the Gloucester match on Sky, that was a farce, but I will admit I enjoyed watching Gloucester play, I went to watch the Blues play Grenoble, that was a bigger farce, I have only seen highlights of the Dragons game, but I did not recognise ANY of the Stad Francias starting 15, so all in all a complete non event, with the teams the French put out, I then saw the teams Exeter and LW put out and just wanted to bang my head against the wall. I understand the need to rest players, but I thought that the PRL and the LNR wanted to make the second tier more of a "product". How can this happen if THEIR teams are still putting out 2nd and 3rd choice sides in the competition ?

Which ones of the 9 internationals that Exe fielded turned you into a head banger - James and Sweeney?

The fact that James still has employment as a pro player gets to me too, so I can sympathise.

Well Gloucester put a strong side out, as did the Blues, Dragons, Connacht why should other clubs treat the competition differently ? Why, was the whole of the way we chose to qualify our teams in the league deemd unfair ?

So how would strength of team be judged, who would do it and what should be the sanction?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So how would strength of team be judged, who would do it and what should be the sanction?

Answer to both, the people in charge.

But the people in charge are the one's who are in charge of the clubs, who ever set this whole thing up is covered in controversy.

How would it be judged?, what should be the sanction?

No 7&1/2 wrote:How would it be judged?, what should be the sanction?

A reduction in the money they get for playing in the competition, would that suffice ?

I don't mind it's your opinion. And the judgment?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't mind it's your opinion. And the judgment?

I don't know, isn't there some sort of committee ?

So just to be clear, you don't know your own opinion on how the strength of each team should be judged or you don't want to say?

4 seasons ago, Montpellier were fined 5,000 euros for omitting 9 players from their Eurosquad. The case was admitted, so there was no need to assess the "best squad".

The sanction came after 2 Amlin pool games, both won by Montpellier, who went on to win the pool and narrowly lose to a strong Stade Francais team in the quarters.

http://www.epcrugby.com/Decision_Montpellier.pdf

HammerofThunor wrote:Ok, once again.  Do you expect all sides to play their best side in every game?  If not when are they 'allowed' to rest them?

2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd choice PRO12 sides is still better than 2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd tier Italians. Even after one round it's clear it's improved.  Whether the overall has improved we'll have to wait until the end.

How many games have you (and this goes to TJ as well) have you seen to know it was 'dire'? How does it compare to the previous seasons.  I ask because as far as I'm aware only one game has been televised, in the UK at least.

I have to say this is so hypocritical it's funny.I thought the big English and French sides never rested players while the Welsh,Irish,Scots and Italians were wrapping their players in cotton wool all the time and this gave them an obvious advantage.According to the PRL/LNR agenda resting players is wrong and there needed to be a way found to stop it.Now that it suits them that goes out the window and players need to be rested.

Surely in the interests of fairness teams can't be allowed rest players like this.After all if the French teams rest their players in the Challenge Cup then they'll be fresher in the league and thus have a better chance of qualifying for the Champions Cup (  still hate that name).The sides who play in the Pro 12 and don't rest players don't enjoy this advantage.Does this not make a mockery of the meritocracy arguments (obviously they were all lies and bluster anyway) when it now becomes easier for the French sides to qualify for the main event?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ok, once again.  Do you expect all sides to play their best side in every game?  If not when are they 'allowed' to rest them?

2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd choice PRO12 sides is still better than 2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd tier Italians. Even after one round it's clear it's improved.  Whether the overall has improved we'll have to wait until the end.

How many games have you (and this goes to TJ as well) have you seen to know it was 'dire'? How does it compare to the previous seasons.  I ask because as far as I'm aware only one game has been televised, in the UK at least.

I have to say this is so hypocritical it's funny.I thought the big English and French sides never rested players while the Welsh,Irish,Scots and Italians were wrapping their players in cotton wool all the time and this gave them an obvious advantage.According to the PRL/LNR agenda resting players is wrong and there needed to be a way found to stop it.Now that it suits them that goes out the window and players need to be rested.

Surely in the interests of fairness teams can't be allowed rest players like this.After all if the French teams rest their players in the Challenge Cup then they'll be fresher in the league and thus have a better chance of qualifying for the Champions Cup (  still hate that name).The sides who play in the Pro 12 and don't rest players don't enjoy this advantage.Does this not make a mockery of the meritocracy arguments (obviously they were all lies and bluster anyway) when it now becomes easier for the French sides to qualify for the main event?

So I take it from this you have seen Hammer specifically making those claims and you're not making the same mistake Lord makes of throwing everyone into one group as though every English poster is in some kind of hive-mind?

Asoreleftshoulder, you are conveniently omitting than T14 and AP have a relegation. Also your argument makes little sense since french clubs compete against french club to qualify for the "champions cup" so I dont see how it penalises P12 teams (although this is secondary to making the playoffs here and have a shot at the brennus)

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ok, once again.  Do you expect all sides to play their best side in every game?  If not when are they 'allowed' to rest them?

2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd choice PRO12 sides is still better than 2nd choice French and Jeff sides against 2nd tier Italians. Even after one round it's clear it's improved.  Whether the overall has improved we'll have to wait until the end.

How many games have you (and this goes to TJ as well) have you seen to know it was 'dire'? How does it compare to the previous seasons.  I ask because as far as I'm aware only one game has been televised, in the UK at least.

I have to say this is so hypocritical it's funny.I thought the big English and French sides never rested players while the Welsh,Irish,Scots and Italians were wrapping their players in cotton wool all the time and this gave them an obvious advantage.According to the PRL/LNR agenda resting players is wrong and there needed to be a way found to stop it.Now that it suits them that goes out the window and players need to be rested.

Surely in the interests of fairness teams can't be allowed rest players like this.After all if the French teams rest their players in the Challenge Cup then they'll be fresher in the league and thus have a better chance of qualifying for the Champions Cup (  still hate that name).The sides who play in the Pro 12 and don't rest players don't enjoy this advantage.Does this not make a mockery of the meritocracy arguments (obviously they were all lies and bluster anyway) when it now becomes easier for the French sides to qualify for the main event?

So I take it from this you have seen Hammer specifically making those claims and you're not making the same mistake Lord makes of throwing everyone into one group as though every English poster is in some kind of hive-mind?

FD, you were not on this forum when the whole unfair/resting players debacle was argued on here, the MAJORITY of Englsih members, NOT ALL, were crying blue murder about it, the PRL were crying blue murder about it, if resting players on the scale we are seeing is ok, then why not let us go back to how we used to qualify for Europe in the Pro12 ?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/lam-set-to-rotate-squad-for-european-clash-in-exeter-30680080.html

"Connacht coach Pat Lam is going to rotate his squad for next Saturday's Challenge Cup trip to Exeter even though it is going to be a pivotal game in establishing who qualifies for the last eight.

But Lam has one eye on a trip to Wales six days later against leaders Ospreys in the Pro12."

whocares wrote:Asoreleftshoulder, you are conveniently omitting than T14 and AP have a relegation. Also your argument makes little sense since french clubs compete against french club to qualify for the "champions cup" so I dont see how it penalises P12 teams (although this is secondary to making the playoffs here and have a shot at the brennus)

That the Top 14 and AP have relegation is not my problem or nor is it the problem of the Welsh,Scots,Italian or Irish sides.The English and French can run their leagues as they see fit with no interference from outside parties (if only that courtesy worked both ways).

Surely the nationality of the sides doesn't matter (according to a lot of posters on here it's all about leagues not Unions) the French teams that rest their players have an easier time qualifying for the Champions Cup compares to the Pro 12 teams that don't rest players.Meritocracy thrown out the window as soon as the PRL/LNR got their money and power grab.

Why can't the pro 12run their league as they see fit?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why can't the pro 12run their league as they see fit?

That's what we were asking when the PRL/LNR made us change how we qualified for Europe.

Oh, to me that's not down to running your league but ensuring that the best quality teams are represented in the top tier of european rugby. Any chance you've had a thought on how you would judge the strength of teams?

Stone Motif wrote:You can thank the blazeratti at the Unions who opposed a place in the top-tier European Cup going to the winner of the Challenge Cup.  Hence the only way in is the league, so you can have no complaints regarding the standard of teams put out.  Only a fool would name their strongest line up (ladies and germs, I give you the comedy stylings of Mr Lyn "Three Cheers for Gwent" Jones...)

The original proposal from the Unions was to expand the top tier tournament to 32 teams and scrap the second tier altogether wasn't it? Tbh, that looks like a missed opportunity now. The Amlin was a pointless competition, it's successor is still a pointless competition. With an expanded main competition, everyone would have won.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh, to me that's not down to running your league but ensuring that the best quality teams are represented in the top tier of european rugby. Any chance you've had a thought on how you would judge the strength of teams?

We were judging them by taking or four regions/provinces, and whoever finished fourth went into the second tier, so if the league finished with the four Welsh regions 1st to 4th respectively, then the team in fourth went into tier two.

Can you not answer the question LD? How would you judge whether a team in Europe was putting out a suitably strong team?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can you not answer the question LD? How would you judge whether a team in Europe was putting out a suitably strong team?

Well it does not take a rocket scientist to see weather there is an academy player starting or a fringe player, come on, lets not be facetious here.

That would be your basis for financial penalties? How would you ever be able to bring a player through? Can't see that as a way forward I'm afraid.

French teams are required to rest players at some point. New elite player rules limit total games to 30 over season.

Is up to the clubs when they rest them, but 2nd tier of euro cup is a v easy decision if I were running the club.

Blame the length of the season if you must. Can't blame the clubs as they are incentivised to perform in top14 over tier 2 euro cup

No 7&1/2 wrote:That would be your basis for financial penalties? How would you ever be able to bring a player through? Can't see that as a way forward I'm afraid.

Ok then, fair enough, then perhaps we should use whatever system the PRL used to determine that the Pro12 clubs were resting players in the league.

If you had no idea on how you would go about holding teams to play stronger teams and how you would even judge if they were playing weak teams you should have just said!

quinsforever wrote:French teams are required to rest players at some point. New elite player rules limit total games to 30 over season.
Is up to the clubs when they rest them, but 2nd tier of euro cup is a v easy decision if I were running the club.

Blame the length of the season if you must. Can't blame the clubs as they are incentivised to perform in top14 over tier 2 euro cup

I thought that was just for the French players, all their superstar imports do not come under that ruling do they ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you had no idea on how you would go about holding teams to play stronger teams and how you would even judge if they were playing weak teams you should have just said!

Don't tell me that, tell the PRL, they were the first one's who were throwing these accusations about, thus we had to totally change the way we qualified for Europe, thus totally changing our league, it was not fair back then, but now it all seems ok.

LordDowlais wrote:What other questions are you on about then ?

You asked if I have seen any games from the second tier this weekend, and I answered you, you asked me about resting players, and I answered you. What other questions have you asked ?

That was the last thing I wrote. My main point is...Do you expect teams to play their strongest team in every game? If not, when are they allowed to rest them? Only in the league? If so should they then take reduced payments from the league?

It is ridiculous to expect teams to play their strongest every week in this day and age... because we have too many game. In their basic season Top14 clubs have 32 games. 20 games is about what you want players to play in a season, 30 games is the upper limit.

As quins says, our season is too long.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What other questions are you on about then ?

You asked if I have seen any games from the second tier this weekend, and I answered you, you asked me about resting players, and I answered you. What other questions have you asked ?

That was the last thing I wrote. My main point is...Do you expect teams to play their strongest team in every game? If not, when are they allowed to rest them? Only in the league? If so should they then take reduced payments from the league?

No Hammer, I expect players to be rested now and then, but when a side makes whole sale changes, then it becomes a farce.

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What other questions are you on about then ?

You asked if I have seen any games from the second tier this weekend, and I answered you, you asked me about resting players, and I answered you. What other questions have you asked ?

That was the last thing I wrote. My main point is...Do you expect teams to play their strongest team in every game? If not, when are they allowed to rest them? Only in the league? If so should they then take reduced payments from the league?

No Hammer, I expect players to be rested now and then, but when a side makes whole sale changes, then it becomes a farce.

How many changes are they allowed to make? And does this rule apply to the leagues as well?

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What other questions are you on about then ?

You asked if I have seen any games from the second tier this weekend, and I answered you, you asked me about resting players, and I answered you. What other questions have you asked ?

That was the last thing I wrote. My main point is...Do you expect teams to play their strongest team in every game? If not, when are they allowed to rest them? Only in the league? If so should they then take reduced payments from the league?

No Hammer, I expect players to be rested now and then, but when a side makes whole sale changes, then it becomes a farce.

How many changes are they allowed to make? And does this rule apply to the leagues as well?

Hammer, you are asking all the same questions as us Celts were when we were being dragged over the coals for concentrating on Europe, I'll give you the answer I gave 71/2 earlier. Why don't you ask the PRL what their criteria was for resting players when they were grizzling about the Pro12 sides that were doing it. You can get your answers from them.

So you've not got an answer? You're just bitching and moaning for the sake of it?

The Pro12 WERE/are resting players. You don't need criteria for that, it was open and lauded as being because they valued player welfare over the English and French.

LordDowlais wrote:
Hammer, you are asking all the same questions as us Celts were when we were being dragged over the coals for concentrating on Europe, I'll give you the answer I gave 71/2 earlier. Why don't you ask the PRL what their criteria was for resting players when they were grizzling about the Pro12 sides that were doing it. You can get your answers from them.

That's not an answer. Come on, I'm in a conference call with Wray, Craig, McCafferty and Blofeld now. Let me know your limits on resting players and which tournaments they should apply to and we'll sort out some sanctions for you right away.

LDs point is quite clear. Why were English fans and the PRL for many years so critical of the celts teams choosing to rotate their squads when it was a common theme across the top European rugby nations. And why now are the French free of criticism for rotating theirs in the Euro comp when LNR and PRL had apparently took steps to ensure the European competition becomes a more elite one.

When, where and who gets rotated; well I guess that's up to the teams coaching staff.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you had no idea on how you would go about holding teams to play stronger teams and how you would even judge if they were playing weak teams you should have just said!

Don't tell me that, tell the PRL, they were the first one's who were throwing these accusations about, thus we had to totally change the way we qualified for Europe, thus totally changing our league, it was not fair back then, but now it all seems ok.

So from that are you saying it was fair back then and fair now?

HammerofThunor wrote:So you've not got an answer? You're just bitching and moaning for the sake of it?

The Pro12 WERE/are resting players. You don't need criteria for that, it was open and lauded as being because they valued player welfare over the English and French.

Wrong - as you have been told many times. pro 12 teams rotate players across all competitions. They do not rest most of the first team for league matches

So who wil bet on the PRLs blame game when their clubs contiue to do poorly in Europe despite the 6 guarenteed places? What will they now do to handicap the successful clubs more?