Absolutely taking the urine

First topic message reminder :

So much for this new European utopia we are supposed to be having, so much for the excuse of making the second tier of the European cup more attractive and competitive, none of the French sides put out a first team in the second tier competition, I was watching the Blues game and it was a farce. But of course, who can we complain to, now that this brave new world are run by the clubs ? We cannot go to the ERC to complain as they are not running the competition, where do we go ? This second tier competition is not worth a w@nk, I would have much rather seen the top tier with the likes of Cardiff and Edinburgh in it rather than watching them wiping the floor with the French 3rd choice teams in a take it or leave it for the French second tier comp.

LordDowlais wrote:The thing is, the sympathisers on here are hiding behind the fact that what was said at the start was a load of lies, the second tier is still the same, a farce, and the top tier will not have all the best sides in Europe playing in it, because you will still get sides that finish sixth or seventh in England and France, and those sides are not better than the sides that could potentially miss out from the Pro12.

OK lets look at it like this, so the PRL duped the Pro12 so what!

They didn't have to sign up to it, but they did as they wanted a piece of the pie too, which makes them just as bad as the big bad PRL.

But in the long run the Pro12 will get a better product for its fans to watch on a weekly basis, unless of course you guys only care about top level euro rugby in which case if you fail to qualify you end up in the 2nd tier which whatever anyone does to improve it, it will always be the 2nd tier so therefore it will always be a disappointment unless you lift the cup in the final.

TH, you're missing the point, we HAD to sign up to it, what alternatives did we have ? Also, there is nothing wrong with being in the second tier, as I have said earlier, it makes no difference to the Welsh regions as the WRU splits the money evenly, what we are saying is, if you are in the second tier, and you are taking the money for being in the second tier, and you want to make it more of a "product" THEN TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

TightHEAD wrote:
unless of course you guys only care about top level euro rugby

All I care about is top level Euro rugby

Is that now a bad thing to say with this classy new European Super car with the chrome highlights in the garage?

So we're not meant to think it's the bee's knees afterall???  And all the money, and fights, and glass bottles thrown, and knife fights in boardrooms, and back-stabs, and sneers and frowns, and walk-outs, and loadsa money, and the Best Contest Ever in the History of the World!!????????????  *gasp for breath"................  that's not what we should be concerned about at all?

The real goal of the PRL/RFU/BT/LNRvision group was............................ was to make the Pro12 a better League?

Wasn't that nice of them peoples all the same  Make the rival Pro12 League better by hopefully making the teams in it less interested in the brand new Speedster of Megabuck potential - the ERCC.

I must write my 'Thank You' note to McCaff this instant.  I had him all wrong.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It's a KitKat issue it seems.

It's a biscuit!

It's a bar!

Notch is right though...mostly because he's Irish and I support him on extreme National preference grounds  

No, seriously, he's right.  No7&12 is entitled to define his League how he pleases.  But we'll decide for ourselves how we define our own Pro12 League.  That's our decision.  We won't be held to definitions suited to both AP and Top14.  And we won't suit their perceptions by defining ourselves as they would wish us to define ourselves.

We are One League comprising of Four Mutually Exclusive Nations with Four Competing National Rugby Interests

To those who have a tough time understanding a Trans National League....just think ERCC.  There's your Trans National League - and look at how we all love and trust each other (and like to be bossed around by representatives of the ERC or the PRL) and look at how content we all are to automatically say that Zebre are as close to our heart emotionally as Leicester, Exeter and Harlequins

The Pro12 is a complex, mature League where much more detailed politics has to be played to make it work.  We won't be told how it should work by two very simple National Boundary Enclosed Leagues such as AP and Top14.  Indeed we have far more hands on experience at running a Trans National event than the PRL or LNR, who seem to think they've always had the expertise and experience to do so.  They don't.  They're novices - and it shows by the continuing fall-out of their ERC Take-over..

Which is fine but if we're talking about a European comp for the top teams we should have the top teams playing in it.

But in future we will not will we ? The thing is, becuase we have been bullied into reforming our league as how we qualify for Europe, things are getting a bit more competitive, now in seasons to come, becuase we only have six places, the top tier European competition could potentialy lose out on having Munster,Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys, Glasgow, in place of The Scarlets, Blues, Edinburgh ect, now most of the first five I have mentioned are better teams than the sixth or seventh placed English or French sides, so how does that make the top tier better, because you are not having ALL the best teams in Europe in it.

Because a team is historically better doesn't make them currently better. If Munster or whoever aren't good enough to qualify then thats fair enough. It's the best of the leagues competing to see who's best overall. (well due to the format of the comp not exactly but it's near enough).

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It's a KitKat issue it seems.

It's a biscuit!

It's a bar!

Notch is right though...mostly because he's Irish and I support him on extreme National preference grounds  

No, seriously, he's right.  No7&12 is entitled to define his League how he pleases.  But we'll decide for ourselves how we define our own Pro12 League.  That's our decision.  We won't be held to definitions suited to both AP and Top14.  And we won't suit their perceptions by defining ourselves as they would wish us to define ourselves.

We are One League comprising of Four Mutually Exclusive Nations with Four Competing National Rugby Interests

To those who have a tough time understanding a Trans National League....just think ERCC.  There's your Trans National League - and look at how we all love and trust each other (and like to be bossed around by representatives of the ERC or the PRL) and look at how content we all are to automatically say that Zebre are as close to our heart emotionally as Leicester, Exeter and Harlequins

The Pro12 is a complex, mature League where much more detailed politics has to be played to make it work.  We won't be told how it should work by two very simple National Boundary Enclosed Leagues such as AP and Top14.  Indeed we have far more hands on experience at running a Trans National event than the PRL or LNR, who seem to think they've always had the expertise and experience to do so.  They don't.  They're novices - and it shows by the continuing fall-out of their ERC Take-over..

Which is fine but if we're talking about a European comp for the top teams we should have the top teams playing in it.

The top teams aren't playing in it.  A specified number of English, French, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italians are playing in it.  A legally defined number from each of those 'Nations' is playing in it.  It's not the 'Best sides in Europe'.  
It's a mechansim to have cross-border club rugby in Europe amongst 6N Union nations.  That's all it is.  It's not about 'Best' - it's about a money circus designed to attract followers from the 6N, designed to attract media coverage, designed to attract sponsorship - and designed simply to produce a product that makes money.

Designed to be a successful comp/product which people will enjoy watching. I'd agree with that.

If I don't agree with the Dowlais/TJ/Fly cabal that makes me a 'sympathiser' and an 'apologist'?

Emotive words guys

We're getting into Godwin's Law territory here...

LordDowlais wrote:TH, you're missing the point, we HAD to sign up to it, what alternatives did we have ? Also, there is nothing wrong with being in the second tier, as I have said earlier, it makes no difference to the Welsh regions as the WRU splits the money evenly, what we are saying is, if you are in the second tier, and you are taking the money for being in the second tier, and you want to make it more of a "product" THEN TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

But why have they got to take it seriously?

If they take the early Euro rounds seriously and pick up a load of injuries to key players then they run the risk of having a poor domestic season, which I believe is the key aim for English and French clubs.

Having a good run in the Euro cup is nice but its not everything to these clubs, I guess its just the way we are programmed, I for one would rather have a solid domestic campaign than a run in the euro cup.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Designed to be a successful comp/product which people will enjoy watching. I'd agree with that.

HEC was..............

That's why companies get bought out.......they have value for the greedy.

But now we have the best of the best, no more filler. Better to watch from the off. Anyhow that's all an aside to the 2nd tier which is what we're on about here.

Cyril wrote:If I don't agree with the Dowlais/TJ/Fly cabal that makes me a 'sympathiser' and an 'apologist'?

Emotive words guys

We're getting into Godwin's Law territory here...

Have I ever 'denied' you an opinion or sneered the opinion offered, Cyril?

Don't slot me into any ready-made folder of the intolerant, please. I plough my own furrow and it provides plenty of opportunity for people to disagree with me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But now we have the best of the best, no more filler. Better to watch from the off. Anyhow that's all an aside to the 2nd tier which is what we're on about here.

My 2nd Tier opinions are above.... we'll leave them there

No 7&1/2 wrote:But now we have the best of the best, no more filler. Better to watch from the off. Anyhow that's all an aside to the 2nd tier which is what we're on about here.

Plus... 'Best' is a word you'll quickly tire of when you realise the Top still has the usual sides that don't 'deserve' to be there. There's alway those sides - the self-righteous media always love to crow about those guys. Wait a while - it'll happen....wait and see.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So no, it's not a point of view - it's simply that the present 'agreement' is designed to strengthen clubs in England and France and to weaken 'clubs' in Pro12 and Unions everywhere - even in SH.  Private Clubs don't want partnership, they want control.

Yes it is.  The clubs wanted a competition that is split equally between the three leagues. From their point of view it IS fair. If you don't agree because you're POV is different it doesn't make their POV invalid.  They wanted a system that was 'fair' from their POV.  It could be unfair in everyone else's POV but it's still only their POV.

Slavery is bad for the slave and good for the Master...but the Master could still claim that both those truths validate his notion that it's all just a POV.

It is - but one's fundamentally Bad and the other is fundamentally Bad

Hammer, you play with words better than I do when you want your coin to show Heads

It's only fundementally 'bad' to your point of view (and mine, in this case I'm happy to get off the fence) but there is no absolute Bad, in the same way there is no absolute 'Fair'. Which is why there's not much point using them in this context. You stop slavery by showing why it is bad in your opinion and convincing others that it is bad. Just using the label 'Bad' is pointless. Just as the label 'Fair' is pointless.

[/quote]Because a team is historically better doesn't make them currently better. If Munster or whoever aren't good enough to qualify then thats fair enough. It's the best of the leagues competing to see who's best overall. (well due to the format of the comp not exactly but it's near enough).[/quote]

But even then, Munster are at the moment better than whoever finishes 6th or 7th in France or England. Look at the Pro12 table as it stands, Leinster are in 6th, the Scarlets are only two points behind them, if things stay like this, and Leinster are yet to come to Wales and play so far this season, if they end up out of the top six this season, they will miss out on the top tier of Europe next season, Leinster are still a better side than any club finishing sixth or seventh in England or France, so you are not getting the the best sides in the competition, also Leinster would run riot against the French 3rds that they like to put out in the second tier, what good is that ?

Clubs will do what they think is best for them.
The PRL/LNR clubs were not happy with the previous competition(for various reasons, probably money being the biggest as they are business' after all)so gave notice to quit as they were legally allowed to do. They then proposed a competition they were happy with & invited(not forced) others to join. Some people tried to force them into not setting up that competition. Nobody forced the Pro12 teams to join the new competition & they must have thought it in their best interest to join.

TightHEAD wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:TH, you're missing the point, we HAD to sign up to it, what alternatives did we have ? Also, there is nothing wrong with being in the second tier, as I have said earlier, it makes no difference to the Welsh regions as the WRU splits the money evenly, what we are saying is, if you are in the second tier, and you are taking the money for being in the second tier, and you want to make it more of a "product" THEN TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

But why have they got to take it seriously?

If they take the early Euro rounds seriously and pick up a load of injuries to key players then they run the risk of having a poor domestic season, which I believe is the key aim for English and French clubs.

Having a good run in the Euro cup is nice but its not everything to these clubs, I guess its just the way we are programmed, I for one would rather have a solid domestic campaign than a run in the euro cup.

Are those your excuses for why the mighty Bath got thrashed in their first game then HERSH? Typical attitude. We're going to fail in Europe so we'll pretend we were prioritising the domestic comp all along

Because a team is historically better doesn't make them currently better. If Munster or whoever aren't good enough to qualify then thats fair enough. It's the best of the leagues competing to see who's best overall. (well due to the format of the comp not exactly but it's near enough).[/quote]

But even then, Munster are at the moment better than whoever finishes 6th or 7th in France or England. Look at the Pro12 table as it stands, Leinster are in 6th, the Scarlets are only two points behind them, if things stay like this, and Leinster are yet to come to Wales and play so far this season, if they end up out of the top six this season, they will miss out on the top tier of Europe next season, Leinster are still a better side than any club finishing sixth or seventh in England or France, so you are not getting the the best sides in the competition, also Leinster would run riot against the French 3rds that they like to put out in the second tier, what good is that ?[/quote]

Don't be silly!

Because a team is historically better doesn't make them currently better. If Munster or whoever aren't good enough to qualify then thats fair enough. It's the best of the leagues competing to see who's best overall. (well due to the format of the comp not exactly but it's near enough).[/quote]

But even then, Munster are at the moment better than whoever finishes 6th or 7th in France or England. Look at the Pro12 table as it stands, Leinster are in 6th, the Scarlets are only two points behind them, if things stay like this, and Leinster are yet to come to Wales and play so far this season, if they end up out of the top six this season, they will miss out on the top tier of Europe next season, Leinster are still a better side than any club finishing sixth or seventh in England or France, so you are not getting the the best sides in the competition, also Leinster would run riot against the French 3rds that they like to put out in the second tier, what good is that ?[/quote]

Actually, the unbalanced qualification means you get 7 automatic places. Also Munster are 4th in the league. You say that they're better than 6th or 7th in the league (I would expect that since they're 4th in their league currently) but all we have on it so far is that they can beat the 10th placed Sale away (just).

And what are you basing that finishing 8th in the Pro12 means you're better than 6th in the Premiership?

Because a team is historically better doesn't make them currently better. If Munster or whoever aren't good enough to qualify then thats fair enough. It's the best of the leagues competing to see who's best overall. (well due to the format of the comp not exactly but it's near enough).[/quote]

But even then, Munster are at the moment better than whoever finishes 6th or 7th in France or England. Look at the Pro12 table as it stands, Leinster are in 6th, the Scarlets are only two points behind them, if things stay like this, and Leinster are yet to come to Wales and play so far this season, if they end up out of the top six this season, they will miss out on the top tier of Europe next season, Leinster are still a better side than any club finishing sixth or seventh in England or France, so you are not getting the the best sides in the competition, also Leinster would run riot against the French 3rds that they like to put out in the second tier, what good is that ?[/quote]

Oh well, it happens.

Better pull their socks up in the Pro12 to make sure they don't miss out then.

broadlandboy wrote:Clubs will do what they think is best for them.
The PRL/LNR clubs were not happy with the previous competition(for various reasons, probably money being the biggest as they are business' after all)so gave notice to quit as they were legally allowed to do. They then proposed a competition they were happy with & invited(not forced) others to join. Some people tried to force them into not setting up that competition. Nobody forced the Pro12 teams to join the new competition & they must have thought it in their best interest to join.

Of course it was in their best interest to join, we need the money, without it we would be fecked, the PRL knew this, thus pushed us into something we never really had any say in.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So no, it's not a point of view - it's simply that the present 'agreement' is designed to strengthen clubs in England and France and to weaken 'clubs' in Pro12 and Unions everywhere - even in SH.  Private Clubs don't want partnership, they want control.

Yes it is.  The clubs wanted a competition that is split equally between the three leagues. From their point of view it IS fair. If you don't agree because you're POV is different it doesn't make their POV invalid.  They wanted a system that was 'fair' from their POV.  It could be unfair in everyone else's POV but it's still only their POV.

Slavery is bad for the slave and good for the Master...but the Master could still claim that both those truths validate his notion that it's all just a POV.

It is - but one's fundamentally Bad and the other is fundamentally Bad

Hammer, you play with words better than I do when you want your coin to show Heads

It's only fundementally 'bad' to your point of view (and mine, in this case I'm happy to get off the fence) but there is no absolute Bad, in the same way there is no absolute 'Fair'. Which is why there's not much point using them in this context. You stop slavery by showing why it is bad in your opinion and convincing others that it is bad. Just using the label 'Bad' is pointless. Just as the label 'Fair' is pointless.

Correct............... it's all just marketing. Any word, any term, any belief system - they're all just the marketing-speak of their era. Like 'Slavery', 'Homosexuality', 'Paedohilia', 'Empire', 'Autocracy', 'Democracy' and the word 'Best'

So nothing means anything when you can rise above the era you're in and think dispassionately. Today I can't look for the return of Gladiators fighting to the Death at a Stadium Near You for my weekend entertainment...but tomorrow it might be a very real option for an ambitious Satelite Platform looking for market-share Simon Cowell and his phone-in Thumb Down. You heard it here first, folks.

Sorry, you lost me.

LordDowlais wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Clubs will do what they think is best for them.
The PRL/LNR clubs were not happy with the previous competition(for various reasons, probably money being the biggest as they are business' after all)so gave notice to quit as they were legally allowed to do. They then proposed a competition they were happy with & invited(not forced) others to join. Some people tried to force them into not setting up that competition. Nobody forced the Pro12 teams to join the new competition & they must have thought it in their best interest to join.

Of course it was in their best interest to join, we need the money, without it we would be fecked, the PRL knew this, thus pushed us into something we never really had any say in.

Rubbish, they didn't have to sign up.

LordDowlais wrote:

But in future we will not will we ? The thing is, becuase we have been bullied into reforming our league as how we qualify for Europe, things are getting a bit more competitive, now in seasons to come, becuase we only have six places, the top tier European competition could potentialy lose out on having Munster,Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys, Glasgow, in place of The Scarlets, Blues, Edinburgh ect, now most of the first five I have mentioned are better teams than the sixth or seventh placed English or French sides, so how does that make the top tier better, because you are not having ALL the best teams in Europe in it.

Seems an odd point to make for me. Of course you could potentially lose those top sides. You could also lose Saracens who are clearly better than the sixth or sevenths placed Pro12 or French sides. That's just what happens with qualification. Now, if you were talking about a situation where a top 7 side (probably an Irish side) is denied a place because of the rule that each country has to have at least one club involved, then you'll have to look closer to home for someone to blame.

This ignores the fact that if a team fails to qualify it probably indicates they've had a substantial drop in quality and your point wouldn't really stand any more that they are better than those who do qualify.

HammerofThunor wrote:Sorry, you lost me.

What did you lose?  

You told me everything is relative...anything can be said to be a POV, even the most close-to-the-bone-moral-guagmires - and I named a few of the historical ones.  

Hitler's Autocracy and the Jews - a POV (not allowed in polite historical circles though and punishable by jail in some countries if you gave an opposite point of view to the familiar one)
Homosexuality (once you got jail for it not so long ago at all - POV Rule suggests that might happen again in some other POV future)
Paedohilia (today considered an absolute evil - in the past practiced by Kings and Emperors and might again in a POV future become 'fashionable'?)
..and Best - supporters of the ERCC say that the contest is now about the Best of the Best.  In the POV world, I of course disagree and say it's about Killing off the Best by cutting their chances of Being the Best

So you're right...it's all a POV.  But where does that truth leave us when both sides admit to it?  
In Limbo.  Nothing to talk about ----- and yet!....we all talk on anyway.

Sorry, I didn't realise you meant the morality of homosexuality. I thought you meant the orientation itself was subject to opinion. I was thinking that it seemed pretty clear cut.

Yes, morality of everything changes over time. And if I was trying to convine someone that paedophilia was 'wrong' I wouldn't say "It's Wrong". I would explain why I think it shouldn't happen.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:If I don't agree with the Dowlais/TJ/Fly cabal that makes me a 'sympathiser' and an 'apologist'?

Emotive words guys

We're getting into Godwin's Law territory here...

Have I ever 'denied' you an opinion or sneered the opinion offered, Cyril?

Don't slot me into any ready-made folder of the intolerant, please.  I plough my own furrow and it provides plenty of opportunity for people to disagree with me.

Fair enough Your furrow is far more cryptic. Can you have a cryptic furrow?

TightHEAD wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Clubs will do what they think is best for them.
The PRL/LNR clubs were not happy with the previous competition(for various reasons, probably money being the biggest as they are business' after all)so gave notice to quit as they were legally allowed to do. They then proposed a competition they were happy with & invited(not forced) others to join. Some people tried to force them into not setting up that competition. Nobody forced the Pro12 teams to join the new competition & they must have thought it in their best interest to join.

Of course it was in their best interest to join, we need the money, without it we would be fecked, the PRL knew this, thus pushed us into something we never really had any say in.

Rubbish, they didn't have to sign up.

They did have to sign. They threatened the PRO12, then they bribed the Scots (or got BT to buy them off) and stirred up trouble in Wales between the Regions & WRU.

Good old perfidious albion ... may you reap what you sow.

Ah, the professional moaner is here

Cyril wrote:Ah, the professional moaner is here

I haven't really got going yet A treat in store for you.

Cyril wrote:Ah, the professional moaner is here

Amateur as he is not paid to do it.

Are you 100% sure of that LT?

Cyril wrote:Ah, the professional moaner is here

Shouldn't that title be afforded to someone else in here? (No not you btw)...

LordDowlais wrote:Hang on a minute, it was not so long ago, we had you lot saying it is not fair that the teams in the Pro12 could rest their players and keep them fit for Europe, what is the difference with what the French are doing ? They are not taking Europe seriously so they can rest their players for their league, I was being told the other day, that why should teams like Gloucester have to play rubbish teams and thrash them in the second tier, when the second tier could be a lot better, the second tier is being made a mockery of, because the French are not taking it seriously, I will wait and see if the top French clubs send weaker teams away in the top tier comp as well, and then we will see how that goes down.

aka The Heineken Cup. Tis what Cardiff prioritised for years mun.

broadlandboy wrote:Clubs will do what they think is best for them.
The PRL/LNR clubs were not happy with the previous competition(for various reasons, probably money being the biggest as they are business' after all)so gave notice to quit as they were legally allowed to do. They then proposed a competition they were happy with & invited(not forced) others to join. Some people tried to force them into not setting up that competition. Nobody forced the Pro12 teams to join the new competition & they must have thought it in their best interest to join.

Absolutely!

When William Webb Ellis picked up the ball he had no idea that the concept would be also be picked by fast buck opportunists today.

The Amlin always was and always will be a competition for also-rans - who is interested in that? There is no point in thinking teams can be forced to play a certain standard of team if they don't want to - the standard comes from the carrot rather than the stick. It was obvious that the PRL/LNR power grab had nothing to do with rugby just money and so it is proved.

What is sad is that otherwise honest rugby followers in England and France who would have been interested in maintaining the foundations and ethos of the game are now apologists for the self-centered "who cares about rugby as long as my team is alright" approach.

He didn't pick it up. He caught it and ran beyond the mark, which was against the school rules...supposedly.

As for the rest

HammerofThunor wrote:He didn't pick it up. He caught it and ran beyond the mark, which was against the school rules...supposedly.

As for the rest

So he broke the rules and the game of rugby was born. Makes perfect sense to me.

[quote="The Great Aukster"] There is no point in thinking teams can be forced to play a certain standard of team if they don't want to - the standard comes from the carrot rather than the stick. It was obvious that the PRL/LNR power grab had nothing to do with rugby just money and so it is proved.
GA you are spot on, the only way the 2nd Tier was going to work was if there was the carrot of the winner of that competition qualifying AUTOMATICALLY for the top Tier competition, it was never going to happen, as the French Championship was more important to them than Tier 2 and they would be able to rest their players in this competition.

LordDowlais wrote:The second tier competition is NOT a development competition, the clubs get paid money to participate in it which they are taking, if they are taking the money, then they should show the competition the respect it deserves, the English (not all) and the French clubs who put out academy and fringe or 2nd string players just to give them game time should be made to answer for it.

Looks like I have some catch up to do ... Anyway, just liked to point out that 1) clubs get paid so little to play this competition that some hardly make enough to cover for the cost of those 6 extra games (specially if it involves a flight to bucarest or newcastle) and 2) london welsh 20 - 52 UBB , not bad for a bunch of fringe players. About time people give credit to edimburgh who mighy have done a "connacht"

So, what I've never been clear on about the second tier competition is... why?

Why should it happen at all?

GA The Unions are business as well

broadlandboy wrote:GA The Unions are business as well

Again absolutely!

The reduction of the teams from the P12 Unions at the top table gives more opportunity to the Franglo clubs (and their Test players) to succeed and make more money. Nothing wrong with that at all - it's professional sport. It's the apologists who try to dress up the money grabbing clubs as being somehow good for the 'wider' game that are deluded and need to be exposed as such.

the only people making the "good of the game" claims, were the blazer and IRB apologists, as a reason not to give in to the very much stronger hand of the PRL/LNR.

and just for clarity, apologist is far more appropriate for the Union defenders in this Euro club battle, than for PRL/LNR defenders. An "apologist" is someone defending something controversial...like an antiquated, uneven, amateur, unfair, anachronistic governance of a fully professional club competition.

so to be accurate, the correct use of "apologist" would be for those in favour of the previous status quo.

The Great Aukster wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Clubs will do what they think is best for them.
The PRL/LNR clubs were not happy with the previous competition(for various reasons, probably money being the biggest as they are business' after all)so gave notice to quit as they were legally allowed to do. They then proposed a competition they were happy with & invited(not forced) others to join. Some people tried to force them into not setting up that competition. Nobody forced the Pro12 teams to join the new competition & they must have thought it in their best interest to join.

Absolutely!

When William Webb Ellis picked up the ball he had no idea that the concept would be also be picked by fast buck opportunists today.

The Amlin always was and always will be a competition for also-rans - who is interested in that? There is no point in thinking teams can be forced to play a certain standard of team if they don't want to - the standard comes from the carrot rather than the stick. It was obvious that the PRL/LNR power grab had nothing to do with rugby just money and so it is proved.

What is sad is that otherwise honest rugby followers in England and France who would have been interested in maintaining the foundations and ethos of the game are now apologists for the self-centered "who cares about rugby as long as my team is alright" approach.

Of course the Amlin was always a competition for also-rans. The unfairness was that Pro12 also-rans did not have to play in it.

It would be a better competition if the winners of the Challenge and Champion's Cups qualified for the next year's Champions's Cup. Unfortunately the Pro12 unions would not accept this. They preferred their seventh placed team to qualify automatically and their eighth and ninth placed teams to go into play-offs. In other words they wanted to keep Champion's Cup places for also-rans.

Notch wrote:So, what I've never been clear on about the second tier competition is... why?

Why should it happen at all?

To give the teams involved games against different opposition. To have a chance to win silverwear. To raise ticket revenue. To bring back injured players. To give experience to academy/fringe players. To build team congestion and confidence in a competition that isn't going to see them relegated. They're just a few that I've mentioned previously but no idea the real reasons.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:So, what I've never been clear on about the second tier competition is... why?

Why should it happen at all?

To give the teams involved games against different opposition. To have a chance to win silverwear. To raise ticket revenue.  To bring back injured players. To give experience to academy/fringe players. To build team congestion and confidence in a competition that isn't going to see them relegated.  They're just a few that I've mentioned previously but no idea the real reasons.

The thing is Hammer, if we were told this at the start, then none of us would be complaining, but we were told that they wanted the second tier to get away from everything you have just said, and that they wanted to make it a better "product".

So just scrap the 2nd tier?

Exiledinborders wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Clubs will do what they think is best for them.
The PRL/LNR clubs were not happy with the previous competition(for various reasons, probably money being the biggest as they are business' after all)so gave notice to quit as they were legally allowed to do. They then proposed a competition they were happy with & invited(not forced) others to join. Some people tried to force them into not setting up that competition. Nobody forced the Pro12 teams to join the new competition & they must have thought it in their best interest to join.

Absolutely!

When William Webb Ellis picked up the ball he had no idea that the concept would be also be picked by fast buck opportunists today.

The Amlin always was and always will be a competition for also-rans - who is interested in that? There is no point in thinking teams can be forced to play a certain standard of team if they don't want to - the standard comes from the carrot rather than the stick. It was obvious that the PRL/LNR power grab had nothing to do with rugby just money and so it is proved.

What is sad is that otherwise honest rugby followers in England and France who would have been interested in maintaining the foundations and ethos of the game are now apologists for the self-centered "who cares about rugby as long as my team is alright" approach.

Of course the Amlin was always a competition for also-rans. The unfairness was that Pro12 also-rans did not have to play in it.

It would be a better competition if the winners of the Challenge and Champion's Cups qualified for the next year's Champions's Cup. Unfortunately the Pro12 unions would not accept this. They preferred their seventh placed team to qualify automatically and their eighth and ninth placed teams to go into play-offs.  In other words they wanted to keep Champion's Cup places for also-rans.

The Heineken Cup has always had more teams than just league winners (a three team competition wouldn't capture the imagination). It used to have the best two teams from Italy and Scotland, the best three from Ireland and Wales and the best six from England and France - so it's fairly obvious where the 'also-rans' were coming from.

I agree that the Amlim should have an added prize of Heineken qualification, but there is no need to have that extended to the Champions competition.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So just scrap the 2nd tier?

100% agree, lets have one big Europan comp.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So just scrap the 2nd tier?

100% agree, lets have one big Europan comp.

Agree with what? I was asking a question to clarify your position. 1 big comp would be 1 big step back. We now have a top comp which is competitve from the start.