Guardian: "Shamed by bigoted England rugby fans at All Blacks game"

I posted this thread about boorish NZ fans following England's summer tour, so it seems only fair that I should also link to these Guardian pieces:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/11/shamed-by-bigoted-england-rugby-fans-at-all-blacks-game

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/nov/11/foul-mouths-boo-boys-twickenham-england-all-blacks

The first link is two letters: one complaining about homophobic abuse aimed at Nigel Owens, the other by a NZ supporter who didn't care for the atmosphere.

The second link is Kitson following up on the letters

Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

England fans are completely harmless and great sports IMO. I have seen some individuals do daft things but nothing worth repeating or writing an article about.

SA fans did a lot of booing of the kicker at the Ireland game but aside from that they tend to seemlessly get stuck into the spirit of proceedings before and after the game hoovering up the black stuff in the various watering holes around the stadium. They are good visitors too.

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Booing the kicker is disrespectful IMO. Just my thoughts on it.

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Booing the kicker is disrespectful IMO. Just my thoughts on it.

I agree it is disrespectful, and not something I would prefer to hear at a game.

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Booing the kicker is disrespectful IMO. Just my thoughts on it.

By that logic Guns, trying to distract somebody collecting a high ball is disrespectful too - "respect the receiver?". I've no problem with trying to put as goal kicker off, it's one of the benefits of having home advantage. Anyway, there's too much pious twaddle about respecting the kicker.

Targeting Owens is low. I sure he doesnt care. He said once something like it really depends on the individual what they find offensive and that he had heard it all before or something like that so I dont think on the surface anyway so hopefully he will not care much. However, you are letting yourself down if you are abusing a ref like that.

homophobic abuse is unacceptable - and illegal. The perpetrators should have been reported, perhaps by the letter writer.

Drowning out the Haka - oh please, that guy should stop being so damned precious.

Booing during a kick at goal. Not a fan, would not do it - but it is rapidly becoming the norm. The sort of kicker likely to be put off by it will be far more affected by a completely silent crowd I suspect.

brennomac wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Booing the kicker is disrespectful IMO. Just my thoughts on it.

By that logic Guns, trying to distract somebody collecting a high ball is disrespectful too - "respect the receiver?".  I've no problem with trying to put as goal kicker off, it's one of the benefits of having home advantage.  Anyway, there's too much pious twaddle about respecting the kicker.

Ive heard that logic before and its nonsense. Respecting kickers is a tradition and a mark of respect to your visitors therefore a positive tradition which should be honoured. Same planks who holler during a minutes slience tend to be the ones that bleat out when someone is kicking.

You cant expect fans to be quite during open play though. That would be ridiculous because you cannot plan for that whereas you can when all the focus is on a kick.

I remember going to my basketball game in Florida. When the opposition received their first free throw a whole bunch of big balloons were handed out to the fans sitting behind the basket. They all waved them about madly and made loads of noise to put the thrower off. I started spouting about what bad sports they all were when I was told to shut it. It is all part of the game and part of being on the road.....home advantage does count and the best players rise above it. No one had a problem with this at all and in fact it added to the fun.

The kickers in rugby seem to not be affected as they are all in the zone, but again my personal choice is not to do it as I think rugby is better than that. I would prefer to hear the haka in silence and then for Twickers to immediately to respond with a rousing couple of verses of swing low to ensure the players all know who has home advantage. But lets not be too precious about all of this.

Abuse of the ref is not acceptable, simple as that. If they were doing that, then they should be chucked out and banned - we don't need folk like that in this sport.

Singing whilst the haka is being performed, absolutely nothing wrong with that. Jeering the kicker gets on my jubblies, but again i can put up with that.

The guardian are being complete idiots.

Alcohol was banned in UK football grounds because it caused genuine violence. When was the last time you saw that sort of thing in Twickenham, Murrayfield, the MS etc?
You simply don't.

Its a single observation and you'd be pushed to find any additional observations in such games.

Does it happen, I'm sure it does... is it marginal, in my experience, certainly.

Whoever thinks the haka needs to observed quietly, heads bowed etc are being simply precious. Its a challenge, react to it which ever way you want.

I mean are these people concerned the haka contained throat slitting gestures????

I thought not. One rule for the precious haka (probably by non kiwi's by the sounds of it), one rule for everyone else.

I mean they complained that people booed when Richie McCaw was named man of the match. What a bunch of liberal prawn sandwich eating fantasists.

There is never any violence. English fans are good fans as are nearly all rugby fans.

Am I allowed to say 'well, it is the Guardian...'

More seriously, I think any abuse of Owens based on his sexuality is entirely unacceptable, although criticising him for having an unusually poor game (even with a bit of humorous abuse) is allowable. I think there was no bias, and I think fans of both sides could point at incidents NO got wrong.

Singing through the Haka? If it was spontaneous then I have no issue, although if it was at the behest of the RFU / Twickers PA system then it was ill-judged, and should have been afterwards. Still think England should be allowed to undertake an aggressive Morris Dance in response (ideally with clubs to smack McCaw over the head...)

Booing the kicker - not my cup of tea at all, but Twickenahm is far from the poorest place for this. No need to single England out, as everyone does it to some extent. The top level kickers should be immune to it now anyway - the ABs missed kicks through poor kicking and the slippery pitch, not because of the crowd.

GunsGerms wrote:

brennomac wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Booing the kicker is disrespectful IMO. Just my thoughts on it.

By that logic Guns, trying to distract somebody collecting a high ball is disrespectful too - "respect the receiver?".  I've no problem with trying to put as goal kicker off, it's one of the benefits of having home advantage.  Anyway, there's too much pious twaddle about respecting the kicker.

Ive heard that logic before and its nonsense. Respecting kickers is a tradition and a mark of respect to your visitors therefore a positive tradition which should be honoured. Same planks who holler during a minutes slience tend to be the ones that bleat out when someone is kicking.

You cant expect fans to be quite during open play though. That would be ridiculous.

Guns, "respecting the kicker" is a tradition in some places - but it is certainly not a tradition in a lot of rugby-playing countries Last Irish tour to NZ I clearly remember a barrage of booing every team an Irish kicker was lining up a kick, ditto in SA and Aus during Lions tours, and France where they take the view that they clap along with their clacker things when their own kicker in lining up and are even louder when the opposition is kicking.

Any international or professional level goal kicker shouldn't be put off by noise when they're lining up a kick - if they are put off then they should be doing something else with their time.

Sorry, saying that being quiet during goal kicks is "a mark of respect to your visitors" is a load of old twaddle. And for info, I'm not some young buck new to rugby and its traditions, I'm a 60-something old guy who's been following rugby since the 1960's. By all means be silent and respectful to the opposition during the national anthems, by all means shake hands and/or embrace after the game, by all means clap them off the pitch and by all means get p1ssed afterwards with them - no argument there, But once the whistle goes to start play, then sorry all best are off as regards noise.

By the way, the same applies to opposing teams having to line up by IRB diktat and give "respect" to the circus act that is the haka. But that's been done to death on other threads.....

brennomac wrote:

Guns, "respecting the kicker" is a tradition in some places - but it is certainly not a tradition in a lot of rugby-playing countries  Last Irish tour to NZ I clearly remember a barrage of booing every team an Irish kicker was lining up a kick, ditto in SA and Aus during Lions tours, and France where they take the view that they clap along with their clacker things when their own kicker in lining up and are even louder when the opposition is kicking.

Any international or professional level goal kicker shouldn't be put off by noise when they're lining up a kick - if they are put off then they should be doing something else with their time.

Sorry, saying that being quiet during goal kicks is "a mark of respect to your visitors" is a load of old twaddle.  And for info, I'm not some young buck new to rugby and its traditions, I'm a 60-something old guy who's been following rugby since the 1960's.  By all means be silent and respectful to the opposition during the national anthems, by all means shake hands and/or embrace after the game, by all means clap them off the pitch and by all means get p1ssed afterwards with them - no argument there,  But once the whistle goes to start play, then sorry all best are off as regards noise.

By the way, the same applies to opposing teams having to line up by IRB diktat and give "respect" to the circus act that is the haka.  But that's been done to death on other threads.....

Let them boo us. Doesnt mean we have to do it. What would you expect from antipodean savages anyway (just kidding).

Your age isnt relevant to me except to say its good to have the view of old timers on the forum too. My dad is in his 60s too and he doesnt know how to use a computer.

I'm pretty sure most folk boo Sexton due to how long he takes not necessarily to put him off.

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Correct ... but its downright ignorant....

I thought it was absolutely shameful, as the Haka couldn't even be picked up by the close mic's ... By all means respond to the Haka, I think that is not just acceptable but a stirring reply... But wait until the Haka has been done, not try to drown it out. This happens every time Nz play England in Twickenham now, and to be honest, as well as ignorant, its getting a little boring.

If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...


... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

Id be tempted to boo Farrell for his ridiculous slanted face kicking ritual but I dont.

No9 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Correct ... but its downright ignorant....

I thought it was absolutely shameful, as the Haka couldn't even be picked up by the close mic's ... By all means respond to the Haka, I think that is not just acceptable but a stirring reply... But wait until the Haka has been done, not try to drown it out. This happens every time Nz play England in Twickenham now, and to be honest, as well as ignorant, its getting a little boring.

If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...


... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

The Haka is a Maori dance bastardised by the New Zealand rugby team.

I see no harm in drowning it out with a song or two. Personally, I would support the England team turning their back on it, or any other team for that matter, if it did not motivate the Kiwis further.

No9 wrote:
If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...

Really, that is what you compare it to? The haka isn't a jolly conversation, it is a war dance and chant. When done by the Maori's it can be awe inspiring and spine tingling - but instead we get an over choreographed bastardisation performed by guys with about as much maori blood as a KKK meeting.

Anyway organised singing arranged for after the Haka leads to it being done in the changing room.

Was anyone expecting serious sporting comment from the guardian?!

The only thing noteworthy there is the abuse of Owens and if it was a bad as made out, a word with the steward at half time would presumably have resolved the matter one way or another.

I have never heard the haka, the only reason you can on tv is because they have the microphones on the grass just in front of them. Personally I think its great that the crowd can respond to the challenge when the players can't.

I used to think that the best policy would be just to ignore it and do a few warm ups or get into a huddle and so a team talk etc. However, the haka ads to the spectacle and generally in sport if anyone lays down a challenge its par for the course to accept it so I reckon the best thing to do is square up to it and eyeball the f out of the Kiwis and let them know they are on your turf.

Duty281 wrote:I see no harm in drowning it out with a song or two. Personally, I would support the England team turning their back on it, or any other team for that matter, if it did not motivate the Kiwis further.

I notice they left their full training gear on over their kit. This ploy meant that they then had to withdraw to the sidelines  to remove training pants and jackets - thus reducing the tension created.

No9 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Correct ... but its downright ignorant....

I thought it was absolutely shameful, as the Haka couldn't even be picked up by the close mic's ... By all means respond to the Haka, I think that is not just acceptable but a stirring reply... But wait until the Haka has been done, not try to drown it out. This happens every time Nz play England in Twickenham now, and to be honest, as well as ignorant, its getting a little boring.

If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...


... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

Racial undertone?

Please get a grip. This was first sung in 1988 by schoolboys who were attending the match. It was their school song sung whenever their school team scored a try.... they did it at Twickenham and it just so happens that the tries that day were mainly scored by a black player.

That is not racist.

In the end if England wants to sing the song and it raises their spirits then so be it. If they want to sing one direction, so be it.

He scored them against Ireland too the swine.

I do think it is a lame song but then what would you expect from the same crowd who brought you the worlds worst anthem.

LondonTiger wrote:

No9 wrote:
If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...

Really, that is what you compare it to? The haka isn't a jolly conversation, it is a war dance and chant. When done by the Maori's it can be awe inspiring and spine tingling - but instead we get an over choreographed bastardisation performed by guys with about as much maori blood as a KKK meeting.

Anyway organised singing arranged for after the Haka leads to it being done in the changing room.

Huh... from your comment, it seems the Haka being done behind closed doors would suit you... If not, and you do enjoy the theater the Haka brings, as do most fans and players, then provide them with respect and allow them to perform it. THEN suitably respond...

As for the changing room incident you refer to.. I was in the crowd that day with my son, and we (as where most around me) really disappointed that the Haka wasn't performed in-front of the crowd... And that day, was Graeme Henry being precious and looking for sound bites.. Any other coach would have gone with the flow...

Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic.

No it is not. The Haka is supposed to be challenge, a challenge to the opposition.

But has the opposing team cannot challenge The Haka now, ( have to stay on their half of the pitch ) it is left to the opposing teams fans to make the Challenge.

The only thing reported that would bother me is the reported homophobic abuse of Owens. That said did anyone actually ask the abusive folks to tone it down? The last time I was at Twickenham there was a fan sitting nearby using colourful language, within earshot of kids. I asked them (in a friendly way) to stop and pointed out the kids nearby. They were a tad embarrassed, apologised for getting carried away, and that was that. No hard feelings either way.

As for not singing through the Haka - stuff that. It's bad enough that the players are apparently obliged to stand there and watch.

I'd hope that any who heard comments like that aimed at Owens would inform security so the perpetrators could be ejected and ideally banned for life.

Booing kicks isn't my thing but I'm from Leicester where's it's traditional for the crowd to be silent. I appreciate that this isn't the norm everywhere.

Singing Swing Low or God Save the Queen in response to to Haka is fine. Booing it would be deplorable.

Given the large number of corporate seats at Twickenham where the incumbents are often heavily sauced before the game begins I doubt much thought goes into some of these reactions.

"Given the large number of corporate seats at Twickenham where the incumbents are often heavily sauced before the game begins I doubt much thought goes into some of these reactions"

Classic comment IMO.

too many non-rugby 'fans' on corporate free booze... no clue as to rugby culture

fa0019 wrote:

No9 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Correct ... but its downright ignorant....

I thought it was absolutely shameful, as the Haka couldn't even be picked up by the close mic's ... By all means respond to the Haka, I think that is not just acceptable but a stirring reply... But wait until the Haka has been done, not try to drown it out. This happens every time Nz play England in Twickenham now, and to be honest, as well as ignorant, its getting a little boring.

If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...


... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

Racial undertone?

Please get a grip. This was first sung in 1988 by schoolboys who were attending the match. It was their school song sung whenever their school team scored a try.... they did it at Twickenham and it just so happens that the tries that day were mainly scored by a black player.

That is not racist.

In the end if England wants to sing the song and it raises their spirits then so be it. If they want to sing one direction, so be it.

Did they write it... No.. It's origins are in American Slavery, and was an American Spiritualist song, sung by the slaves on the "Underground Railroad" escaping slavery. Hence it could be said to have racial undertones. I was not referring to the fact it was sung by these schoolboys when Oti scored his 3 trys.

Seriously? So not only do the opposition players have to stand still, be quiet and generally behave like little rabbits caught in a lorry's headlights, but any fan who dares sing a song during the sacred haka, is to be labelled an unsporting boor?

I would love to see more players adopting the David Campese approach to the haka, in other words, to simply ignore it and hopefully puncture the pomposity that surrounds it.

Monkeyan wrote:Seriously? So not only do the opposition players have to stand still, be quiet and generally behave like little rabbits caught in a lorry's headlights, but any fan who dares sing a song during the sacred haka, is to be labelled an unsporting boor?

I would love to see more players adopting the David Campese approach to the haka, in other words, to simply ignore it and hopefully puncture the pomposity that surrounds it.

Some cracking phrases today.

Oh the English struggle with the haka always amuses. During it we had that swing low droll monotone thing only capable of succeeding by completely tone deaf masses and then when it finishes a great cheer goes up.what's that about? The other half admitting to some respect.?..or the swing low lot glad its over? Either way it just makes them look silly.

The ABs paid the English side as much respect as they could by bringing out their special occasion haka and for them whatever the crowd does would have been irrelevant. The haka is not about the crowd so all that singing would have fallen on deaf ears... swing... low only giving aid to some nervous crowd twitches I suppose.

Each to his own but its clear the haka is not really meant for the international stage where naivety is abound. Amazing effect it has on some though.

No9 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

No9 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Correct ... but its downright ignorant....

I thought it was absolutely shameful, as the Haka couldn't even be picked up by the close mic's ... By all means respond to the Haka, I think that is not just acceptable but a stirring reply... But wait until the Haka has been done, not try to drown it out. This happens every time Nz play England in Twickenham now, and to be honest, as well as ignorant, its getting a little boring.

If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...


... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

Racial undertone?

Please get a grip. This was first sung in 1988 by schoolboys who were attending the match. It was their school song sung whenever their school team scored a try.... they did it at Twickenham and it just so happens that the tries that day were mainly scored by a black player.

That is not racist.

In the end if England wants to sing the song and it raises their spirits then so be it. If they want to sing one direction, so be it.

Did they write it... No.. It's origins are in American Slavery, and was an American Spiritualist song, sung by the slaves on the "Underground Railroad" escaping slavery. Hence it could be said to have racial undertones. I was not referring to the fact it was sung by these schoolboys when Oti scored his 3 trys.

So why is it racist if it is there school song?

Is it a song mocking black people? No. Its a Christian song, written by an black American during the slavery era and it came into English rugby when schoolboys from a Christian school sung their school song it at a match and it caught on. Are white schoolboys not allowed to sing a Christian song because it was written by a black individual?

So tell me, how is that racist?

If it was a song which mocked black people then perhaps. But it isn't.... and they didn't sing it only when Oti scored. The fact he was black was simply a non-factor in it.
Did they start singing kong fu fighting everything rory underwood scored a try? No they didn't.

Want to combat actual racism in rugby.... why not start with everyone stop referring to black South Africans by their pet names rather than their actual names....

come on.... without accusing you of anything I imagine you'll have to look up Beast's, Oupa's and Chilliboy's actual names (only that I imagine near everyone would struggle). That's actual racism in sport even if its sub-conscious. If you don't then fair play to you. I myself stopped a while back as I realised its simply demeaning to call them by names similar to those you'd call a garden-boy, maid etc and why because their name is too difficult to remember, pronounce, spell.

Its racist because Oti scored against Ireland and now they keep signing it rubbing it in the faces of Irish people for ever. Thats why right!!

No9 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

No9 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Correct ... but its downright ignorant....

I thought it was absolutely shameful, as the Haka couldn't even be picked up by the close mic's ... By all means respond to the Haka, I think that is not just acceptable but a stirring reply... But wait until the Haka has been done, not try to drown it out. This happens every time Nz play England in Twickenham now, and to be honest, as well as ignorant, its getting a little boring.

If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...


... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

Racial undertone?

Please get a grip. This was first sung in 1988 by schoolboys who were attending the match. It was their school song sung whenever their school team scored a try.... they did it at Twickenham and it just so happens that the tries that day were mainly scored by a black player.

That is not racist.

In the end if England wants to sing the song and it raises their spirits then so be it. If they want to sing one direction, so be it.

Did they write it... No.. It's origins are in American Slavery, and was an American Spiritualist song, sung by the slaves on the "Underground Railroad" escaping slavery. Hence it could be said to have racial undertones. I was not referring to the fact it was sung by these schoolboys when Oti scored his 3 trys.

1988 ? Pffft! I witnessed Swing Low in 1967, performed after a match by visiting London Fijians - complete with the silent rude gestures verse. For years I thought it was a South Sea boating song or something, but it was around the London / Kent club scene two decades before Chris Oti played for England.

Yes No.9

exactly my point.

It had nothing to do with Chris Oti. Given it came from a counties public school I don't doubt that it was around the London rugby club scene.

So can you tell me..... why does it have racial undertones???

To be fair I have been to Wales v England rugby and football games and while at the football match England fans were violent and xenophobic all the way through I never experienced any of this when at Twickenham so it probably was a few corporate posh boys drinking too much champers

As for 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot'. I know in the US programme 'Prison Break' the racist psychopath Theodore "T-Bag" Bagwell sings it during one scene to try and antagonise the black members of the group that have escaped from the prison so there may well be racial undertones that need to be looked at if England supporters continue to sing it

Steffan wrote:To be fair I have been to Wales v England rugby and football games and while at the football match England fans were violent and xenophobic all the way through I never experienced any of this when at Twickenham so it probably was a few corporate posh boys drinking too much champers

As for 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot'. I know in the US programme 'Prison Break' the racist psychopath Theodore "T-Bag" Bagwell sings it during one scene to try and antagonise the black members of the group that have escaped from the prison so there may well be racial undertones that need to be looked at if England supporters continue to sing it

It came from a Christian school, their school song... it was adopted after kids from this school at a rugby match started singing it whenever a try was scored... like they did whenever their school scored a try too.

This is not racial.

The bad thing is any abuse. Homophobia is awful and anyone guilty should be charged. Im not fussed that the away side started to dance during the traditional rendition of swing low though.

Oh dear, Swing Low is now a song with racial undertones?

If anything it is the exact opposite, as it is a song associated with the freedom of black slaves in the American deep south, and carried through to the American civil rights movement during the time of Martin Luther King.

It is a song with racial undertones. Positive ones though and absolutely nothing to do with England.

fa0019 wrote:

Steffan wrote:To be fair I have been to Wales v England rugby and football games and while at the football match England fans were violent and xenophobic all the way through I never experienced any of this when at Twickenham so it probably was a few corporate posh boys drinking too much champers

As for 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot'. I know in the US programme 'Prison Break' the racist psychopath Theodore "T-Bag" Bagwell sings it during one scene to try and antagonise the black members of the group that have escaped from the prison so there may well be racial undertones that need to be looked at if England supporters continue to sing it

It came from a Christian school, their school song... it was adopted after kids from this school at a rugby match started singing it whenever a try was scored... like they did whenever their school scored a try too.

This is not racial.

I'm sure Al Joleson only wanted to bring a bit of music and entertainment into peoples lives when he put on blackface and sang "Mammy". Might not be acceptable today.
Lyons tea (Irish brand) also had the Minstrels as part of their advertising campaign up to quite recently and they sung a very catchy little ditty as well " drink Lyons tea, doddodobedo"
And my favourite icecream growing up was a "Gollybar" which was sold by HB in Ireland upt to the 90's as far as I recall. It was all white vanilla icecream and the wrapper had a picture of a gollywog on it.

Times change.

I'm no Scarlet fan, yet what apparently happened last Saturday to Rhys was absolutely disgusting if it is as was reported, not only in the Guardian, there has been a big story running on this in the Western Mail, the same sort of thing happened to Dan Biggar (Ospreys) in our own HOME matches a couple of years ago, especially when some disgruntled fans wanted Mathew Morgan to come on. IMO the person to blame for a lot of Rhys's problems by selecting him when his confidence was shot and he admitted this himself was Howley, I for one would like Rhys to have an outstanding performance on Saturday, it can only be good if Dan, Rhys, Patchell and Anscombe all push each other to improve and be the best they can be.

No9 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Correct ... but its downright ignorant....

I thought it was absolutely shameful, as the Haka couldn't even be picked up by the close mic's ... By all means respond to the Haka, I think that is not just acceptable but a stirring reply... But wait until the Haka has been done, not try to drown it out. This happens every time Nz play England in Twickenham now, and to be honest, as well as ignorant, its getting a little boring.

If someone simply spoke over what you where saying, you'd think them ignorant... Its all about respect, and the English fans showed little of that.. And dont say its the minority, as it has to be the majority to make that din...


... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

if they were talking to me in a language they know i dont understand, complete with threatening gestures, saying the same thing every time, then i would feel entitled to do whatever i want. i certainly wouldnt stand there submissively.

i love the singing over the haka. and look what effect it has on firing up the england players. maybe we should have asked the ABs to do another haka at half time and we could have sung over that too and maybe we might have scored somepoints in the second half.

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Xenophobic? No.
Disrespectful? Yes.
Something that would put me off visiting a ground as an opposition fan? Yes.

EDIT; Booing the Haka would put me off. Responding to it in kind by singing would not. The best thing about the Haka is that it is aggressive and confrontational. It cranks up the atmosphere before the game, singing is all part of that. But booing? If you want to let 80000 people know you're pretty ignorant go ahead!

Likewise, booing the kicker is just unsporting. Unless he sneaks five yards forward while the ref is talking to a player. Then it's open season.

no-one booed the haka. about 50,000 people sang swing low. i've been there twice when it happens and it absolutely cranks the atmosphere up to the next level. far more than when nothing happens at all.