Guardian: "Shamed by bigoted England rugby fans at All Blacks game"

First topic message reminder :

I posted this thread about boorish NZ fans following England's summer tour, so it seems only fair that I should also link to these Guardian pieces:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/11/shamed-by-bigoted-england-rugby-fans-at-all-blacks-game

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/nov/11/foul-mouths-boo-boys-twickenham-england-all-blacks

The first link is two letters: one complaining about homophobic abuse aimed at Nigel Owens, the other by a NZ supporter who didn't care for the atmosphere.

The second link is Kitson following up on the letters

People who react like these idiots are just that idiots but unfortunately now tickets are more readily available other than through being a member of your local club as it was years ago these things happen.

That doesn't make it right but it happens, I have had many, lets say discussions with young Welsh fans who just hurl abuse at players/refs with no or very little knowledge of the game.

There was a group of us at Twickenham for the LDH, a mixture of fans of the 4 clubs involved and a few like me neutral there for the day out. A few rows behind us were a group of about half dozen young lads p****d up (we were not sober) and all they done all game was hurl abuse at the ref and Farrell seemed to come in for fair amount of stick and there were lots of families there but they didn't give a monkeys.

In the end one of our group had a quiet word with them and they soon left not before hurling abuse at our party.

Slightly offtopic, but it's in the article you linked to, good to see this in the Guardian- in yer mans column;

The Guardian wrote:England’s players were genuinely humbled this week to meet the former Springbok Joost van der Westhuizen, who is in Europe to raise awareness of motor neurone disease, the condition which now afflicts the great scrum-half. Van der Westhuizen, who is raising funds for his J9 Foundation, has also been helping to publicise a highly unusual sporting occasion this Saturday: a Gaelic football match being played at Ulster’s Kingspan Stadium (previously Ravenhill). The contest, between 2013 All-Ireland champions, Dublin, and an all-star Ulster select team, is in support of the former Antrim senior football captain Anto Finnegan, who was diagnosed with MND in 2012. Tickets for the Game for Anto are available via Tickemaster.

Good to see Rugby Union and the GAA in Ulster working together to raise  awareness of motor neurone disease, and it's good to see that the organisers of that event (Antrim GAA and Ulster Rugby) have made common cause with Joost van der Westhuizen in doing so. And it's good to see it reported in the national press.

i just read the letters. if there were real abuse of Owens, the writer or people around him should have spoken to security. not for us to deal with aggressive drunk abusive spectators and expect a reasonable discussion.

the letter about the haka was pathetic to be honest. he was just having a whinge, didnt even go to the game. and only the "right-on" Guardian would print such a whiny letter. Surely the fact he wasnt even there should preclude the Grauniad from printing it? Because he will have had no idea about the effect on the stadium. And i've been there in similar circumstances and trust me its electric.

More BS about the bloody haka again, the bloody precious haka. The haka world famous in New Zealand. It is in reality a Maori challenge to other Maori and little more. It the precious Kiwi don't like the responses to it stop doing it and just do it in NZ. Yes we know the Japanese and the Yanks wet themselves when they see it but so do tourists when they go to Rotorua and pay silly money to see bubbling mud!!

No one hates the hake that's too stronger word, but it is past its sell by date for many and in reality means bugger all to anybody in a cultural sense although kiwis would argue differently of course.

I like the Haka. Well I like the one the All Blacks did for years until changes over the last few years which isn't as much to my liking. I think they should still do it before every game as it's all part of the event

I hate swing low sweet chariot, its a silly song... But singing it during the haka was great. The haka is grand fun, but the real disgrace is that no team is allowed challenge it without the IRB going mental...

rainbow-warrior wrote:More BS about the bloody haka again, the bloody precious haka.  The haka world famous in New Zealand.  It is in reality a Maori challenge to other Maori and little more.  It the precious Kiwi don't like the responses to it stop doing it and just do it in NZ.  Yes we know the Japanese and the Yanks wet themselves when they see it but so do tourists when they go to Rotorua and pay silly money to see bubbling mud!!

No one hates the hake that's too stronger word, but it is past its sell by date for many and in reality means bugger all to anybody in a cultural sense although kiwis would argue differently of course.

Nah mate. I've never been to NZ, have little intention to go and I'd feel totally cheated if I went to see the All Blacks and there was no Haka. I'll stand up for it anyway.

i love the crowd singing when the haka is performed. it is the england fans telling the IRB where to shove their pedantic, pandering adulation of the ABs.

Booing, jeering at, or singing over the haka is good imo. Booing kickers is the norm and expected and it's more spooky when it's silent like in Ireland. But I actually thought the England fans were quiet during our kicks? I'm sure at least the first one was as I remember thinking it was odd. Maybe I'm wrong there. Booing McCaw in his after match interview wasn't cool though. I don't even think boorish NZ fans do that, pretty disappointing really. I noted a different vibe in the ground in the weekend. The constant booing at decisions that were clearly correct. Not noticed that before at twickers.

And the anti-gay slurs, those are always anecdotal accounts so I'm loath to pass judgement on that. Hope it wasn't true, we'll never know unless we see it on YouTube.

Taylorman wrote:Oh the English struggle with the haka always amuses. During it we had that swing low droll monotone thing only capable of succeeding by completely tone deaf masses and then when it finishes a great cheer goes up.what's that about? The other half admitting to some respect.?..or the swing low lot glad its over? Either way it just makes them look silly.

The ABs paid the English side as much respect as they could by bringing out their special occasion haka and for them whatever the crowd does would have been irrelevant. The haka is not about the crowd so all that singing would have fallen on deaf ears... swing... low only giving aid to some nervous crowd twitches I suppose.

Each to his own but its clear the haka is not really meant for the international stage where naivety is abound. Amazing effect it has on some though.

To me that suggests that the crowd enjoys the Haka but also enjoys interacting with it.  That the English supporters on here have said that in the stadium it ramps the atmosphere up would seem to back that up.  If the only truly acceptable manner in which to receive the Haka is in silence (would that have been the case when it was actually used in war?) then the English supporters are being ignorant, but I think it would be equally ignorant for critics of their actions to suggest that the England fans are doing it with the aim of disrespecting the ABs.

Yeah, do what you guys want, it's your God given right in your own back yard. Singing is great as that's standing up as one. Booing is a bit uncouth but there shouldn't be a problem with that. Booing is usually in countries without a singing culture (SA and Oz). But the Irish staying silent, well, that's just fantastic as the whole spectacle becomes a moving event for everyone in the stadium.

ebop wrote:Booing, jeering at, or singing over the haka is good imo. Booing kickers is the norm and expected and it's more spooky when it's silent like in Ireland. But I actually thought the England fans were quiet during our kicks? I'm sure at least the first one was as I remember thinking it was odd. Maybe I'm wrong there. Booing McCaw in his after match interview wasn't cool though. I don't even think boorish NZ fans do that, pretty disappointing really. I noted a different vibe in the ground in the weekend. The constant booing at decisions that were clearly correct. Not noticed that before at twickers.

I'm glad you brought that up ebop because I didn't notice booing for the kicks either and am normally very critical when it occurs at Twickenham, which has been more frequent in recent years but still relatively rare and mostly for the decision rather than the kicker, which is still unacceptable in my book.

Was it that noticable others or are ebop and I just deaf?


I didn't watch the post match stuff, but if McCaw was booed that is really terrible.

quinsforever wrote:no-one booed the haka. about 50,000 people sang swing low. i've been there twice when it happens and it absolutely cranks the atmosphere up to the next level. far more than when nothing happens at all.

Fair enough then. If it get's everyone going then that's great.

ebop wrote:Yeah, do what you guys want, it's your God given right in your own back yard. Singing is great as that's standing up as one. Booing is a bit uncouth but there shouldn't be a problem with that. Booing is usually in countries without a singing culture (SA and Oz). But the Irish staying silent, well, that's just fantastic as the whole spectacle becomes a moving event for everyone in the stadium.

I'm Irish, so was just giving my take of what it seemed like from in front of a television. Maybe I'm wrong given a couple of the more notorious posters' comments on here, but those guys aren't usually representative.

Astonishing how many folk on here have no idea what swing low sweet chariot is about. Number 9 gets it pretty well right. The song was adopted by evangelical Christians after its roots in american slavery and thats how it came to the UK

Nothing racist about it at all - apart from the ignorance about its meanings and origins. Pretty offensive to me tho because of its religiosity but that will not offend many. Above all else its ridiculous hearing it sung at the cabbage patch - because people have no idea of its meaning nor do they know the words. I jthink I have heard the first verse a couple of times but never any more than that.

IMO english rugby should adopt "Jerusalem" Stirring, speaks for many different Englands and a few folk might know the words.

Jerusalem is far from shy on the religion as well.  Tough to get away from religion completely in established anthem type songs, but I always felt closer to I Vow To Thee, My Country as an English national anthem, which is more about sacrifice for your country, with the heaven references more in the last verse which you'd never normally get to.  Not sure it would be right for during the match though, just the beginning.

TJ wrote:IMO english rugby should adopt "Jerusalem"  Stirring, speaks for many different Englands and a few folk might know the words.

I agree. 'Jerusalem' reminds me of 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' where the focus of the song is about the land and the pride of being from the land as opposed to many nations anthems which are very militant or imperialistic. In the case of 'God Save the Queen' it's a song about a very rich woman who lives off the people and most of my English friends say that that feel no affinity to it

johnpartle wrote:Jerusalem is far from shy on the religion as well.  Tough to get away from religion completely in established anthem type songs, but I always felt closer to I Vow To Thee, My Country as an English national anthem, which is more about sacrifice for your country, with the heaven references more in the last verse which you'd never normally get to.  Not sure it would be right for during the match though, just the beginning.

Perhaps we could all have a jolly good singsong of "There will always be an England" - I think that is free of religious reference?

Steffan wrote:

TJ wrote:IMO english rugby should adopt "Jerusalem"  Stirring, speaks for many different Englands and a few folk might know the words.

I agree. 'Jerusalem' reminds me of 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' where the focus of the song is about the land and the pride of being from the land as opposed to many nations anthems which are very militant or imperialistic. In the case of 'God Save the Queen' it's a song about a very rich woman who lives off the people and most of my English friends say that that feel no affinity to it

Jerusalem is about Jesus going on holiday to Cornwall and the creation of a Christian utopia. I can't get any more behind that than I can one about a god showing the Queen some preference. At least GSTQ calls for defence of laws and the people to be saved.

nth wrote:

Steffan wrote:

TJ wrote:IMO english rugby should adopt "Jerusalem"  Stirring, speaks for many different Englands and a few folk might know the words.

I agree. 'Jerusalem' reminds me of 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' where the focus of the song is about the land and the pride of being from the land as opposed to many nations anthems which are very militant or imperialistic. In the case of 'God Save the Queen' it's a song about a very rich woman who lives off the people and most of my English friends say that that feel no affinity to it

Jerusalem is about Jesus going on holiday to Cornwall and the creation of a Christian utopia. I can't get any more behind that than I can one about a god showing the Queen some preference. At least GSTQ calls for defence of laws and the people to be saved.

And Jesus went to Glastonbury, don't forget!

johnpartle wrote:Jerusalem is far from shy on the religion as well.  Tough to get away from religion completely in established anthem type songs, but I always felt closer to I Vow To Thee, My Country as an English national anthem, which is more about sacrifice for your country, with the heaven references more in the last verse which you'd never normally get to.  Not sure it would be right for during the match though, just the beginning.

The IRB probably wouldn't be happy, they've already nicked the music for the World in Union.

"Swing Low" was a rugby drinking song before it became the unofficial stadium anthem. You'd sing it while performing a series of gestures - the one for "coming" not really for family viewing.

When the crowd started singing it a Twickenham in 1988, they were were just transferring bar antics to the terraces. It could just as easily have been "Father Abraham" or "Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes".

To be honest i expect nothing less from the Twickers lot, it all boils down to knowledge and the average England fan has absolute no idea about any facet of rugby,then throw into the mix the perpetual drivel they read in the papers how the world cup is theirs to lose it's sour grapes all round when they don't see the game panning out that way.

We saw unreal ref abuse and still do about Steve Walsh when Wales hammered England, even with Brian Moore in the commentary box mocking him for caring about his appearance,
but even they failed to realise he took 80% of his scrum calls from the touch judge.

Again it all comes down to complete lack of understanding of the game,we see it on this forum with the likes of madge and quinsforever always dishing out complete waffle on how games are won and lost.

So in short expect nothing less because armchair English fans read about them being world beaters have the worlds best player in every position, they play a decent team with a fair ref they get shown up so they throw their toys out of the pram.

So fellow fans pity them don't hate them because they are but like chimps trying to tie a shoe lace.

What I wonder is are people singing to drown it out because they think it's sh*t or boring or they don't want to see it? It seems like that.
Would English fans prefer if NZ didn't perform it before a match?

what a tool.

the twickenham crowd is a far more knowledgeable and even-handed crowd than a Millenium Stadium full of pink-hatters.

to castigate an entire population based on a story about one small group of men shouting homophobic things at Owens (its not stated whether they were english or not by the way)
is pretty bad, even by your very low standards.

its all good as far as the scrum is concerned. with the new rules your boys cant cheat their way to kickable penalties any more.

good news will be when you dont make it out of Pool A your team and alleged supporters wont have far to go to get home.

Intotouch wrote:What I wonder is are people singing to drown it out because they think it's sh*t or boring or they don't want to see it? It seems like that.
Would English fans prefer if NZ didn't perform it before a match?

because we've all seen it loads of times and nobody wants to quietly suffer through it in our own backyard. and it definitely lets our players know we are behind them.

and because it is a challenge. that is accepted and returned.

quinsforever wrote:what a tool.

the twickenham crowd is a far more knowledgeable and even-handed crowd than a Millenium Stadium full of pink-hatters.

to castigate an entire population based on a story about one small group of men shouting homophobic things at Owens (its not stated whether they were english or not by the way)
is pretty bad, even by your very low standards.

its all good as far as the scrum is concerned. with the new rules your boys cant cheat their way to kickable penalties any more.

good news will be when you dont make it out of Pool A your team and alleged supporters wont have far to go to get home.

Wow crystal ball time , see what i mean English fans want to argue about a result from a game that is ten months away honestly if i bit he would argue all night over these events on how his prediction is right while no doubt throwing the odd xenophobic comment in then talk about sheep a little.

quinsforever wrote:

Intotouch wrote:What I wonder is are people singing to drown it out because they think it's sh*t or boring or they don't want to see it? It seems like that.
Would English fans prefer if NZ didn't perform it before a match?

because we've all seen it loads of times and nobody wants to quietly suffer through it in our own backyard. and it definitely lets our players know we are behind them.

and because it is a challenge. that is accepted and returned.

Have you ever been to twickers or the Millennium? or you just talking about what you see on tv?

If I went to see the all blacks and couldn't hear the haka because of people singing I'd be really annoyed. Thankfully it wouldn't happen in Dublin. I know we've all seen it countless times at this stage but when watching the all blacks I always make sure to I'm watching a few mins before so I don't miss it.
Richie McCaw has probably been the best player in the world over the last ten years. If one or two people booed the award of the motm to him fair enough but it appears it was a quite a high number of fans. Shouldn't happen.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Intotouch wrote:What I wonder is are people singing to drown it out because they think it's sh*t or boring or they don't want to see it? It seems like that.
Would English fans prefer if NZ didn't perform it before a match?

because we've all seen it loads of times and nobody wants to quietly suffer through it in our own backyard. and it definitely lets our players know we are behind them.

and because it is a challenge. that is accepted and returned.

Have you ever been to twickers or the Millennium? or you just talking about what you see on tv?

MS twice this year. Twickenham i go usually a couple of times a year excluding the london double headers.

you seem to have a big problem with me for some reason.

cant imagine its going to lessen after england win handsomely at millenium stadium in the 6Ns either.

galwegian101 wrote:If I went to see the all blacks and couldn't hear the haka because of people singing I'd be really annoyed. Thankfully it wouldn't happen in Dublin. I know we've all seen it countless times at this stage but when watching the all blacks I always make sure to I'm watching a few mins before so I don't miss it.
Richie McCaw has probably been the best player in the world over the last ten years. If one or two people booed the award of the motm to him fair enough but it appears it was a quite a high number of fans. Shouldn't happen.

we have played new zealand 5 times in the last 12 months. i have no interest in listening to the haka when NZ play England. it's not entertainment. it is a piece of psychological weaponry. that wasnt just a few people singing Swing Low on Saturday. that was every english voice that knew the words. which suggests the english feel quite differently that you do about the haka.

not sure if mccaw was booed for getting motm or booed during the postmatch interview with captains, as they were one and the same. i was slightly surprised about the booing but i am sure it is because he was shown on the big screen tv to have been off his feet and offside a few times while playing the ball and the refs missed it. One of those turnovers was from in their own 22 and the passage of play finished with a NZ score.

quinsforever wrote: i have no interest in listening to the haka when NZ play England. it's not entertainment. it is a piece of psychological weaponry.  

That's the trouble quins. You've seemingly talked yourself into thinking it is a piece of psychological weaponry. There is far more respect in performing a haka for the other side as there is in any of that. In NZ it is usually greeted with a responding haka from the opposition and both sides get on with it having shown mutual respect for one another.

And here it actually is a form of entertainment. We have culture festivals 'Kapahaka' up and down the country where Haka forms a major part of that.

Its also performed in front of our own supporters or when dignatories visit NZ- are we giving them a bit of psychological weaponry as well?

The problem here is there is no right of answer (the IRB decreed that not NZ) and with no responding 'Haka' as such the opposition and their fans have a 'void' to fill and do all sorts of things...singing swing low, or turning their backs amongst the poor options available to them.

The other mistake you make is you link the haka with the performance of the AB's, where it is done with the various other islands its somehow not very controversial, yet the concept is exactly the same.

And on and on it goes...

and if it was every english voice in the crowd, which voices gave rapturous applause when the haka finished? The same voices- i.e.- they feel the need to try and over sing it yet applaud loudly at the end? Why? Simply because it was over perhaps...how odd...

not sure that throat slitting gesture, or the aggressive delivery, says "entertainment" to me.

but Tman, you're forgetting that when Wales wanted to do the anthems after the Haka, NZ threw what can only be described as a bit of a hissy fit and decided to perform the Haka in the changing room. Now tell me, if it's just for the spectacle, and not an attempt to gain a psychological advantage, why would it have been so bad to perform it before the anthems?

And yes, the IRB describing exactly when and how it will be performed, and more importantly, how the opposing team can respond, is stupid beyond belief.
hing "swing low" is good a response as any other, yes it's a terrible tune, but like it or not it's the rugby anthem for England, and probably won't change for a bit... Singing it during the Haka is the England fans way of telling the team they're behind them, I just can't see how it can be seen as disrespectful.

Obviously homophobic comments about the ref are completely unacceptable, I hope whoever made the comments is found and duly charged, and I hope it's only an isolated incident...

quinsforever wrote:not sure that throat slitting gesture, or the aggressive delivery, says "entertainment" to me.

oh look that's all part of the theatrics, in the same way two uniformed teams in modern day sport in a lot of ways assimilate the blue coats marching on the redcoats. Sport today is a friendly more civil version of war whether we admit it or not, but it also has comraderie and gamesmanship. So too does the haka.. I mean the red team don't actually shoot the blue team do they, just as the AB's 'actually' don't slit throats.

your team acts out slitting our throats. our team's fans sings a song.

if there is nothing disrespectful in the former, there is nothing disrespectful in the latter.

when i travel the world i expect to see local customs and cultures displayed, celebrating their history, in the countries i visit. does it not strike you as bizarre that the haka gets wheeled out so much, so far away from its roots and cultural and spiritual home?

maybe when teams only toured every 5 years it was a great thing to witness. we have played NZ 4 times in 3 months. Give me a freaking break.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:but Tman, you're forgetting that when Wales wanted to do the anthems after the Haka, NZ threw what can only be described as a bit of a hissy fit and decided to perform the Haka in the changing room. Now tell me, if it's just for the spectacle, and not an attempt to gain a psychological advantage, why would it have been so bad to perform it before the anthems?

And yes, the IRB describing exactly when and how it will be performed, and more importantly, how the opposing team can respond, is stupid beyond belief.
hing "swing low" is good a response as any other, yes it's a terrible tune, but like it or not it's the rugby anthem for England, and probably won't change for a bit... Singing it during the Haka is the England fans way of telling the team they're behind them, I just can't see how it can be seen as disrespectful.

Obviously homophobic comments about the ref are completely unacceptable, I hope whoever made the comments is found and duly charged, and I hope it's only an isolated incident...

The Wales incident was for all I know an agreement. the AB's agreed to do it after the Welsh anthem for their centenary so they bucked tradition to allow it.

Then Wales decided with afterthought that perhaps they would like that to be the status quo.

You call it hissy fit, others an agreement. Its simply upholding a tradition to go last. Right or wrong...go figure.

The disrespectful aspect is only a NZ/ Maori thing. Here we wouldn't sing or dance or do any other performing act while a visiting team or culture group or the like is performing a haka in our honour. That would be hugely disrespectful. They have travelled, they have fronted and they have put in a lot of effort in performing an item prior to a 'challenge' with what they perceive will be well received and respected on its own merits.

Here the crowd has chosen to treat it as some sort of affront when that's simply not the case.

Like I said, its not a tradition practiced overseas and if that concept can't be grasped then I can't help you. If you don't get it, then you don't get it. And that's fine. Just seems ironic in the land of so many so called 'traditions', from our view of things it just makes them look silly....

quinsforever wrote:your team acts out slitting our throats. our team's fans sings a song.

if there is nothing disrespectful in the former, there is nothing disrespectful in the latter.

when i travel the world i expect to see local customs and cultures displayed, celebrating their history, in the countries i visit. does it not strike you as bizarre that the haka gets wheeled out so much, so far away from its roots and cultural and spiritual home?

maybe when teams only toured every 5 years it was a great thing to witness. we have played NZ 4 times in 3 months. Give me a freaking break.

your break is granted...and we had to listen to your national anthem 4 times. I didn't have a problem with that. And yes it is bizarre its performed overseas, and frankly it should be stopped, especially if there isnt enough maturity out their to accept them. And I wouldnt say yours is a majority view in any way Quins...just a guess.

the haka is clearly a challenge. i couldnt care less what you say it started out as. it is how we perceive it that is what matters in determining our response.

maybe if the ABs did it solely for the benefit of the crowd then there wouldnt be an issue? then it genuinely would be entertainment. as it is, it feels like a threat.

a group of kids on a school cultural exchange singing a song cannot be compared with the visceral threat from the haka prior to a rugby match starting. how many school kids on cultural exchanges threaten to slit the throats of their hosts?

quinsforever wrote:the haka is clearly a challenge. i couldnt care less what you say it started out as. it is how we perceive it that is what matters in determining our response.

maybe if the ABs did it solely for the benefit of the crowd then there wouldnt be an issue? then it genuinely would be entertainment. as it is, it feels like a threat.

a group of kids on a school cultural exchange singing a song cannot be compared with the visceral threat from the haka prior to a rugby match starting. how many school kids on cultural exchanges threaten to slit the throats of their hosts?

You are welcome to do with it what you wish...you are the one clearly struggling with it. So good luck with that...

You still make the mistake of linking it to performance as some sort of advantage by the way you are more vocal towards the AB version and not other Pacific Island versions.

Part of the way of 'handling' it is to unlink it from the performance and take it as it is. 82,000 at twickers failed to grasp the same concept. Would they have sung over the Cook Island side in the same way? Probably not. The threat is not the same even though the concept is identical.

gelodge wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Oh the English struggle with the haka always amuses. During it we had that swing low droll monotone thing only capable of succeeding by completely tone deaf masses and then when it finishes a great cheer goes up.what's that about? The other half admitting to some respect.?..or the swing low lot glad its over? Either way it just makes them look silly.

The ABs paid the English side as much respect as they could by bringing out their special occasion haka and for them whatever the crowd does would have been irrelevant. The haka is not about the crowd so all that singing would have fallen on deaf ears... swing... low only giving aid to some nervous crowd twitches I suppose.

Each to his own but its clear the haka is not really meant for the international stage where naivety is abound. Amazing effect it has on some though.

To me that suggests that the crowd enjoys the Haka but also enjoys interacting with it.  That the English supporters on here have said that in the stadium it ramps the atmosphere up would seem to back that up.  If the only truly acceptable manner in which to receive the Haka is in silence (would that have been the case when it was actually used in war?) then the English supporters are being ignorant, but I think it would be equally ignorant for critics of their actions to suggest that the England fans are doing it with the aim of disrespecting the ABs.

I'd agree with that.  I think there are some like quinsforever who don't get along with the Haka, but most do and the singing is from their perspective almost an honouring or recognition of it and a way of getting involved.  They have mics in front of the players on the pitch, but they never really do a good job of picking it up, or it at least doesn't really transfer across the speakers up in the stands, so there is a bit of a void that the singing fills and adds to the experience, immersing the crowd.  The cheering after the Haka is still loud and stadium strong, as forceful as it ever was before the singing started, so it's certainly not designed to be disrespectful, if a crowd wanted to be disrespectful surely they would boo or whistle or just meet its completion with stony silence. Customs we all have in our own countries are often greeted very differently abroad, the thing is not to get caught up on the actual response but the spirit in which it is offered.

splenetic wrote:

gelodge wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Oh the English struggle with the haka always amuses. During it we had that swing low droll monotone thing only capable of succeeding by completely tone deaf masses and then when it finishes a great cheer goes up.what's that about? The other half admitting to some respect.?..or the swing low lot glad its over? Either way it just makes them look silly.

The ABs paid the English side as much respect as they could by bringing out their special occasion haka and for them whatever the crowd does would have been irrelevant. The haka is not about the crowd so all that singing would have fallen on deaf ears... swing... low only giving aid to some nervous crowd twitches I suppose.

Each to his own but its clear the haka is not really meant for the international stage where naivety is abound. Amazing effect it has on some though.

To me that suggests that the crowd enjoys the Haka but also enjoys interacting with it.  That the English supporters on here have said that in the stadium it ramps the atmosphere up would seem to back that up.  If the only truly acceptable manner in which to receive the Haka is in silence (would that have been the case when it was actually used in war?) then the English supporters are being ignorant, but I think it would be equally ignorant for critics of their actions to suggest that the England fans are doing it with the aim of disrespecting the ABs.

I'd agree with that.  I think there are some like quinsforever who don't get along with the Haka, but most do and the singing is from their perspective almost an honouring or recognition of it and a way of getting involved.  They have mics in front of the players on the pitch, but they never really do a good job of picking it up, or it at least doesn't really transfer across the speakers up in the stands, so there is a bit of a void that the singing fills and adds to the experience, immersing the crowd.  The cheering after the Haka is still loud and stadium strong, as forceful as it ever was before the singing started, so it's certainly not designed to be disrespectful, if a crowd wanted to be disrespectful surely they would boo or whistle or just meet its completion with stony silence.  Customs we all have in our own countries are often greeted very differently abroad, the thing is not to get caught up on the actual response but the spirit in which it is offered.

yes that was my point. If singing during it adds spice to the occasion why not. And I don't buy that it was an effort to 'drown' it out as some suggest. There's no impact on the players by doing that as it has nothing to do with the crowd. I've got no problem with it but some actually do want to hear it so its spoilt a bit for them- Quins obviously not one of them.

Seems we just go round and round on this one every AI's. You'd think people would get bored of the same rhetoric..

I suppose some people appreciate the Haka more than others. Most South Africans I know love the Haka.

My wife for example does not follow rugby, but she knows about the Haka and before every match I must call her as she loves the spectacle of the Haka.

Others deem it the Haka unnecessary and I actually feel sorry for them, because it makes a New Zealand match a very special occasion which they can't appreciate.

But then each to his own I say.

As for booing the kicker, I have no qualms if people want to do that or not, it happens at most grounds to a varying degree.

Homophobic and racist chants or slurs is just lack of class and education, and I suspect you get that everywhere.

Taylorman wrote:

splenetic wrote:

gelodge wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Oh the English struggle with the haka always amuses. During it we had that swing low droll monotone thing only capable of succeeding by completely tone deaf masses and then when it finishes a great cheer goes up.what's that about? The other half admitting to some respect.?..or the swing low lot glad its over? Either way it just makes them look silly.

The ABs paid the English side as much respect as they could by bringing out their special occasion haka and for them whatever the crowd does would have been irrelevant. The haka is not about the crowd so all that singing would have fallen on deaf ears... swing... low only giving aid to some nervous crowd twitches I suppose.

Each to his own but its clear the haka is not really meant for the international stage where naivety is abound. Amazing effect it has on some though.

To me that suggests that the crowd enjoys the Haka but also enjoys interacting with it.  That the English supporters on here have said that in the stadium it ramps the atmosphere up would seem to back that up.  If the only truly acceptable manner in which to receive the Haka is in silence (would that have been the case when it was actually used in war?) then the English supporters are being ignorant, but I think it would be equally ignorant for critics of their actions to suggest that the England fans are doing it with the aim of disrespecting the ABs.

I'd agree with that.  I think there are some like quinsforever who don't get along with the Haka, but most do and the singing is from their perspective almost an honouring or recognition of it and a way of getting involved.  They have mics in front of the players on the pitch, but they never really do a good job of picking it up, or it at least doesn't really transfer across the speakers up in the stands, so there is a bit of a void that the singing fills and adds to the experience, immersing the crowd.  The cheering after the Haka is still loud and stadium strong, as forceful as it ever was before the singing started, so it's certainly not designed to be disrespectful, if a crowd wanted to be disrespectful surely they would boo or whistle or just meet its completion with stony silence.  Customs we all have in our own countries are often greeted very differently abroad, the thing is not to get caught up on the actual response but the spirit in which it is offered.

yes that was my point. If singing during it adds spice to the occasion why not. And I don't buy that it was an effort to 'drown' it out as some suggest. There's no impact on the players by doing that as it has nothing to do with the crowd. I've got no problem with it but some actually do want to hear it so its spoilt a bit for them- Quins obviously not one of them.

Seems we just go round and round on this one every AI's. You'd think people would get bored of the same rhetoric..

If that's the case why the hell do they put more mic's down that AC/DC in concert when they are performing the dance?  I would say that a stadium singing a song over the haka is ALL ABOUT drowning it out.  As already stated the haka is a meaningless dance outside NZ and in reality meaningless if not done in front of other Maori.  Oh and FYI its Kapa Haka two words not one.

quinsforever wrote:not sure that throat slitting gesture, or the aggressive delivery, says "entertainment" to me.

sounds like it scares you Quins.

As long as there are no knives or daggers on the field I am sure it is safe to presume it is only a metaphoric throat slitting, eh?

Jeez Biltong, dont tell Quins there are no knives, he thinks the savages from the South Pacific are going to come and get him in the middle of the night..... Actually not a bad idea.

On the alleged abuse that Owens got.

I am surprised that the letter writer, or anyone within earshot, didn't take the perpetrators to task. They may have been boozed up, but these type of people are usually easily shamed if challenged. Especially by enough people.

A significant proportion of a Twickenham crowd don't attend professional club matches*. Not many at the Double Header seem to either. Consequently they have no reference point to what's acceptable and what isn't.

My experience is that boorish behaviour and unsporting booing of kickers is swiftly pounced on, and the offenders told to be quiet. In my experience crowds at English pro games are for the main part very well behaved.

My favourite tactic is the "Excuse me, but we haven't come here to listen to you." type approach.



* The junior club scene in England is very different to the pro game. At club level attending a game is more of a social gathering for some. You will often hear groups of people yapping away while a kicker lines up a kick. Never booing though.

No9 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

No9 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

Racial undertone?

Please get a grip. This was first sung in 1988 by schoolboys who were attending the match. It was their school song sung whenever their school team scored a try.... they did it at Twickenham and it just so happens that the tries that day were mainly scored by a black player.

That is not racist.

In the end if England wants to sing the song and it raises their spirits then so be it. If they want to sing one direction, so be it.

Did they write it... No.. It's origins are in American Slavery, and was an American Spiritualist song, sung by the slaves on the "Underground Railroad" escaping slavery. Hence it could be said to have racial undertones. I was not referring to the fact it was sung by these schoolboys when Oti scored his 3 trys.

Sly move from "racist" to "racial" there. You're not a politician are you?

If it was sung by racists to taunt slaves back then you'd have a point, but it was sung by them. Completely different.