Guardian: "Shamed by bigoted England rugby fans at All Blacks game"

First topic message reminder :

I posted this thread about boorish NZ fans following England's summer tour, so it seems only fair that I should also link to these Guardian pieces:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/11/shamed-by-bigoted-england-rugby-fans-at-all-blacks-game

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/nov/11/foul-mouths-boo-boys-twickenham-england-all-blacks

The first link is two letters: one complaining about homophobic abuse aimed at Nigel Owens, the other by a NZ supporter who didn't care for the atmosphere.

The second link is Kitson following up on the letters

I was sitting up in the gods in the North Stand on Saturday. As I recall there was only one other kiwi in our area and he was a few rows down. I went with 4 English mates and when Jonny May scored (a peach of a try may I add), I got pelters on the head (as I stayed in my seat) from my mates and a few others around me. All harmless..the bloke in front decided to even shake my hand!

There wasn’t any booing or jeering in our section but recall vividly when Richie McCaw was announced as MOTM, a massively loud boo rung out around the game. That was poor. Then when he was interviewed on the big screen the crowd booed again.

I’ll never accept the ‘holier than thou’ attitude of English suppporters again after that. NZ crowds can be poor, but obviously so can English ones.

And by the way, we’re not precious about the haka. Your media are.

Do the AB's always get to do their dance last - when they play another side (Samoa/Fiji etc.) that has it's variation on one is it always the ABs that go last?

Irish Londoner wrote:Do the AB's always get to do their dance last - when they play another side (Samoa/Fiji etc.) that has it's variation on one is it always the ABs that go last?

Yes

chewed_mintie wrote:I was sitting up in the gods in the North Stand on Saturday.  As I recall there was only one other kiwi in our area and he was a few rows down.  I went with 4 English mates and when Jonny May scored (a peach of a try may  I add), I got pelters on the head (as I stayed in my seat) from my mates and a few others around me.  All harmless..the bloke in front decided to even shake my hand!

There wasn’t any booing or jeering in our section but recall vividly when Richie McCaw was announced as MOTM, a massively loud boo rung out around the game.  That was poor.  Then when he was interviewed on the big screen the crowd booed again.  

I’ll never accept the ‘holier than thou’ attitude of English suppporters again after that.  NZ crowds can be poor, but obviously so can English ones.

And by the way, we’re not precious about the haka.  Your media are.

Is anyone holier than thou???? Any nation?

What's wrong with booing anyhow? I bet McCaw loved it.

If you went to an opposition ground, the ground of your rival I bet what you'd love is for you to be booed after you won. It shows a weakness, a sense that you've obviously done something right. McCaw didn't do anything wrong in the match, the reason why they booed him probably is because he wins time and time again and gets the better of whoever England have thrown against him be it Neil Back, Lewis Moody, Tom Rees, Stefan Armitage or Chris Robshaw.

Take WWE for instance, they have faces (heroes) and heels (villains)... some are born faces, some born heels and the heels love the boos, they absolutely love it. They want to rile the crowd and these guys are as big a draw to stadiums as the heroes... why because people want to see them get smashed. And that is scripted "sport". People know its all a fraud, a show, a script but does it make people's blood boil any less. Nope.

Typical rugby heels.... bakkies botha, Richard Loe, Jonno, even chaps like Chris Ashton and Danny Care.

The one nation I never seem to see acting ungraciously are the aussies (hate to say it). They are comfortable when their team gets beat if beaten fair and square. They don't tend to boo kickers, players or show themselves in a poor light and don't tend to mock losers when victorious. The rest, they're near as bad as each other. A few exceptions in Argentina etc but I feel this is due to their strong and aggressive football culture ingrained in their society.

chewed_mintie wrote:I was sitting up in the gods in the North Stand on Saturday.  As I recall there was only one other kiwi in our area and he was a few rows down.  I went with 4 English mates and when Jonny May scored (a peach of a try may  I add), I got pelters on the head (as I stayed in my seat) from my mates and a few others around me.  All harmless..the bloke in front decided to even shake my hand!

There wasn’t any booing or jeering in our section but recall vividly when Richie McCaw was announced as MOTM, a massively loud boo rung out around the game.  That was poor.  Then when he was interviewed on the big screen the crowd booed again.  

I’ll never accept the ‘holier than thou’ attitude of English suppporters again after that.  NZ crowds can be poor, but obviously so can English ones.

And by the way, we’re not precious about the haka.  Your media are.

i wasnt aware of a holier than thou attitude amongst english fans. irish fans at the aviva yes with their pride in complete silence during kicks. those who watch games at HQ are a bit of a mixed bag. With 82,000 there it is a noisy raucous atmosphere. They are for the most part though, a very knowledgeable crowd about the game and its laws. That's why mccaw was once again the pantomime villain. because on some days, he clearly gets the better of the referees. I wouldnt have booed, but i can understand where it comes from.

LondonTiger wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Do the AB's always get to do their dance last - when they play another side (Samoa/Fiji etc.) that has it's variation on one is it always the ABs that go last?

Yes

Then the obvious question is why - if it's a welcome/challenge then how can it also be a response - why can't the AB's do theirs first and then let the other team respond ?

I'm sure we will go last in Apia.

a Scotsman writing for the BBC had this to say about the haka a couple of years ago.

so its not just the english. and its not just the Torygraph.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/johnbeattie/2010/06/haka.html

I think it is simply unnatural to have silence when someone has to kick at goal. That eerie silence will freak me out

quinsforever wrote:what a tool.

the twickenham crowd is a far more knowledgeable and even-handed crowd than a Millenium Stadium full of pink-hatters.

to castigate an entire population based on a story about one small group of men shouting homophobic things at Owens (its not stated whether they were english or not by the way)
is pretty bad, even by your very low standards.

its all good as far as the scrum is concerned. with the new rules your boys cant cheat their way to kickable penalties any more.

good news will be when you dont make it out of Pool A your team and alleged supporters wont have far to go to get home.

As opposed to silly Nigel's dressed up in tin foil armour and cardboard swords you mean? Yeah right

Irish Londoner wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Do the AB's always get to do their dance last - when they play another side (Samoa/Fiji etc.) that has it's variation on one is it always the ABs that go last?

Yes

Then the obvious question is why - if it's a welcome/challenge then how can it also be a response - why can't the AB's do theirs first and then let the other team respond ?

They'd only spit the dummy if they did not have their way.

quinsforever wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:I was sitting up in the gods in the North Stand on Saturday.  As I recall there was only one other kiwi in our area and he was a few rows down.  I went with 4 English mates and when Jonny May scored (a peach of a try may  I add), I got pelters on the head (as I stayed in my seat) from my mates and a few others around me.  All harmless..the bloke in front decided to even shake my hand!

There wasn’t any booing or jeering in our section but recall vividly when Richie McCaw was announced as MOTM, a massively loud boo rung out around the game.  That was poor.  Then when he was interviewed on the big screen the crowd booed again.  

I’ll never accept the ‘holier than thou’ attitude of English suppporters again after that.  NZ crowds can be poor, but obviously so can English ones.

And by the way, we’re not precious about the haka.  Your media are.

i wasnt aware of a holier than thou attitude amongst english fans. irish fans at the aviva yes with their pride in complete silence during kicks. those who watch games at HQ are a bit of a mixed bag. With 82,000 there it is a noisy raucous atmosphere. They are for the most part though, a very knowledgeable crowd about the game and its laws. That's why mccaw was once again the pantomime villain. because on some days, he clearly gets the better of the referees. I wouldnt have booed, but i can understand where it comes from.

The holier than thou attitude comes out when something is highlighted at NZ games.  We've had bad moments, ie the bottle throwing incident v France in 2009 and general booing of kickers etc.  When it happens NH types are quite quick to complain about it.

I can kind of see your point about McCaw being some sort of pantomime villain.  But, the MOTM was announced after the game had finished.  Surely if rugby is a game where everything is left on the pitch then the crowd should have given him fair recognition of a job well done, which it was.

thomh wrote:

No9 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

No9 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

... If you have to sing over it, try a reasonable song... Swing Low is as about as tuneful as the dirge of an anthem... (not to mention a racists undertone).

Racial undertone?

Please get a grip. This was first sung in 1988 by schoolboys who were attending the match. It was their school song sung whenever their school team scored a try.... they did it at Twickenham and it just so happens that the tries that day were mainly scored by a black player.

That is not racist.

In the end if England wants to sing the song and it raises their spirits then so be it. If they want to sing one direction, so be it.

Did they write it... No.. It's origins are in American Slavery, and was an American Spiritualist song, sung by the slaves on the "Underground Railroad" escaping slavery. Hence it could be said to have racial undertones. I was not referring to the fact it was sung by these schoolboys when Oti scored his 3 trys.

Sly move from "racist" to "racial" there. You're not a politician are you?

If it was sung by racists to taunt slaves back then you'd have a point, but it was sung by them. Completely different.

No not really... I was responding to FA's response (highlighted RED) and hence responded using RACIAL instead of racist... However, re-reading the term racial is a more accurate word to use..

Taylorman wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:but Tman, you're forgetting that when Wales wanted to do the anthems after the Haka, NZ threw what can only be described as a bit of a hissy fit and decided to perform the Haka in the changing room. Now tell me, if it's just for the spectacle, and not an attempt to gain a psychological advantage, why would it have been so bad to perform it before the anthems?

And yes, the IRB describing exactly when and how it will be performed, and more importantly, how the opposing team can respond, is stupid beyond belief.
hing "swing low" is good a response as any other, yes it's a terrible tune, but like it or not it's the rugby anthem for England, and probably won't change for a bit... Singing it during the Haka is the England fans way of telling the team they're behind them, I just can't see how it can be seen as disrespectful.

Obviously homophobic comments about the ref are completely unacceptable, I hope whoever made the comments is found and duly charged, and I hope it's only an isolated incident...

The Wales incident was for all I know an agreement. the AB's agreed to do it after the Welsh anthem for their centenary so they bucked tradition to allow it.

Then Wales decided with afterthought that perhaps they would like that to be the status quo.

You call it hissy fit, others an agreement. Its simply upholding a tradition to go last. Right or wrong...go figure.

The disrespectful aspect is only a NZ/ Maori thing. Here we wouldn't sing or dance or do any other performing act while a visiting team or culture group or the like is performing a haka in our honour. That would be hugely disrespectful. They have travelled, they have fronted and they have put in a lot of effort in performing an item prior to a 'challenge' with what they perceive will be well received and respected on its own merits.

Here the crowd has chosen to treat it as some sort of affront when that's simply not the case.

Like I said, its not a tradition practiced overseas and if that concept can't be grasped then I can't help you. If you don't get it, then you don't get it. And that's fine. Just seems ironic in the land of so many so called 'traditions', from our view of things it just makes them look silly....

Lets get this right... OK I GOT IT WRONG... but rather than delete, I've crossed it out, so I cant be accused of coming clean when I make a mistake..  

IT was 2006 as others said... I could have sworn it was the 2005 Haka performed in the changing room, but it was the year after the 100 year celebration... My mistake..

The game in question was the 2005 AI. 2005 being 100 year anniversary of the very first Wales v All Black encounter. Back then, Anthems were NOT played before the game back then, and the crowd, in response to the Haka sang Hen Wlad fy Nhadau AFTER the Haka had been performed and applauded by the crowd. Being the 100th anniversary, the WRU requested that the Haka was performed BEFORE the Anthems as a mark of "celebration". This was accepted initially in the week by the NZRU and IRB. HOWEVER, Graeme Henry has a "hissy fit" before the game and said NO, which sparked the controversy. The WRU said agreement was already done, and Henry agreed to honor that agreement, but decided to perform the Haka in the changing rooms, as he said no agreement was made to where it would be performed. ...

A few years ago we had a mass singing of Cwm Rhondda after the haka lead by a fat man with a Welsh Flag (Wynne Evans - Go Compare "man"). Again, it was AFTER the Haka... But the key thing here, is with both replies, Wales responded in song, after due respect was given to the Haka. Singing over it doesn't.

1905 - Wales v NZ:

Having the Go Compare guy sing shows massive disrespect to everyone

Wasn't the 'hissy fit' in the following game after the centenary as Tman said? The ABs honoured the centenary arrangement I thought.

As fans of the greatest sport on the planet we all have a responsibility not to let the minority of mindless tossers tarnish our game and turn it into your average wendyball match. The Haka is fair game, racial and homophobic abuse is not.

Correct

As long as you don't hurl racist remarks at those poor NZers.

splenetic wrote:

gelodge wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Oh the English struggle with the haka always amuses. During it we had that swing low droll monotone thing only capable of succeeding by completely tone deaf masses and then when it finishes a great cheer goes up.what's that about? The other half admitting to some respect.?..or the swing low lot glad its over? Either way it just makes them look silly.

The ABs paid the English side as much respect as they could by bringing out their special occasion haka and for them whatever the crowd does would have been irrelevant. The haka is not about the crowd so all that singing would have fallen on deaf ears... swing... low only giving aid to some nervous crowd twitches I suppose.

Each to his own but its clear the haka is not really meant for the international stage where naivety is abound. Amazing effect it has on some though.

To me that suggests that the crowd enjoys the Haka but also enjoys interacting with it.  That the English supporters on here have said that in the stadium it ramps the atmosphere up would seem to back that up.  If the only truly acceptable manner in which to receive the Haka is in silence (would that have been the case when it was actually used in war?) then the English supporters are being ignorant, but I think it would be equally ignorant for critics of their actions to suggest that the England fans are doing it with the aim of disrespecting the ABs.

I'd agree with that.  I think there are some like quinsforever who don't get along with the Haka, but most do and the singing is from their perspective almost an honouring or recognition of it and a way of getting involved.  They have mics in front of the players on the pitch, but they never really do a good job of picking it up, or it at least doesn't really transfer across the speakers up in the stands, so there is a bit of a void that the singing fills and adds to the experience, immersing the crowd.  The cheering after the Haka is still loud and stadium strong, as forceful as it ever was before the singing started, so it's certainly not designed to be disrespectful, if a crowd wanted to be disrespectful surely they would boo or whistle or just meet its completion with stony silence.  Customs we all have in our own countries are often greeted very differently abroad, the thing is not to get caught up on the actual response but the spirit in which it is offered.

And the Twickenham crowd has boo'd and whistled over the Haka many times in the past. I think the singing this time was RFU organised to avoid this unfortunate disrespectful behavior, but imo has back fired.

The link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weUHwCjeD7s), shows Ireland performing "River dance" to the Haka... Watch the Irish footwork whilst they advance... Its definitively Michael Flatley out there on the wing

ebop wrote:Wasn't the 'hissy fit' in the following game after the centenary as Tman said? The ABs honoured the centenary arrangement I thought.

ebop - totally correct, I made a mistake with the year and corrected my post... When you get to my age, all years roll into one..

the haka was booed when the ABs did their most recent "new" version which finished with what to Twickenham looked like a fairly unsavoury throat-slitting gesture. in 2005 i think.

after this incident, the NZRU asked the ABs not to do that version of the haka again until they had had time to research its meaning and communicate with the rugby community about it.

so even the NZRU weren't sure it was appropriate.

and i'm sure its still not.

You get a bunch of boozed up at every international. Clueless about the game, whose playing or it's traditions. Owens gets grief/catcalls/ homophobic a use at regional games too. Not condoning what happened on sat but this isn't just a HQ thing.

Steffan wrote:To be fair I have been to Wales v England rugby and football games and while at the football match England fans were violent and xenophobic all the way through I never experienced any of this when at Twickenham so it probably was a few corporate posh boys drinking too much champers

As for 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot'. I know in the US programme 'Prison Break' the racist psychopath Theodore "T-Bag" Bagwell sings it during one scene to try and antagonise the black members of the group that have escaped from the prison so there may well be racial undertones that need to be looked at if England supporters continue to sing it

Cardiff and Swans fans were kicking off that day, not Eng fans. You've had go at the barmy army in the past Steffan, one of the most respected fans in the world yet have glorified the soul crew. Please....

Steffan wrote:

TJ wrote:IMO english rugby should adopt "Jerusalem"  Stirring, speaks for many different Englands and a few folk might know the words.

I agree. 'Jerusalem' reminds me of 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' where the focus of the song is about the land and the pride of being from the land as opposed to many nations anthems which are very militant or imperialistic. In the case of 'God Save the Queen' it's a song about a very rich woman who lives off the people and most of my English friends say that that feel no affinity to it

Even if i were given the money she has, i'd prefer not to be in her shoes as i would imagine a lot of people would agree.

US Prison, tv drama, fiction, yeah Steffan.
Exactly the same cultural undertones and symbolism as an English rugby match.
I enjoyed seeing the London Fijians perform,yes perfom, Sweet Chariots as long ago as 1967.
Maybe you should drop a note to the Fijian Ambassador to enlighten him about US sensitivities.

I don't have a problem with the Haka and each nation should be allowed to respond how they wish as long as it is not racist, homophobic etc. IMO the response has gone from silence to noise because it has become precious to the IRB and to some NZ supporters. If teams can't respond then as is mentioned in earlier posts fans will. The only person I have asked not to boo was on a corporate day a couple of years ago at Twickenham and he was a Scot. No this doesn't mean all Scots boo!!!

I thought the 2 mins silence and last post should have come after the Haka, but that's just my opinion.

I remember singing and learning the actions to Swing Low as a student in the mid 80's and recall singing this at Twickenham during the varsity match and Middlesex 7s - along with large amounts of the crowd. It was done for the gestures with variants on musical style (flat monotone from me throughout) and silent ie gestures apart from one particular word shouted.

'coming' ?

Yep

brennomac wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

Booing the kicker is disrespectful IMO. Just my thoughts on it.

By that logic Guns, trying to distract somebody collecting a high ball is disrespectful too - "respect the receiver?".  I've no problem with trying to put as goal kicker off, it's one of the benefits of having home advantage.  Anyway, there's too much pious twaddle about respecting the kicker.

The tradition of not booing the kicker comes from people who have played the game.It is an offense for a player to distract the kicker when he is taking a penalty,most people who used to watch rugby had played it themselves so they obeyed the law even when they weren't playing.It's unfortunately being eroded now and I can see it dying out completely in the next 10+ years.

Except for a conversion and its ok to distract the kicker by running at them.

Yeah you can charge down a conversion but you can't shout.I had this come up in a game I played once,a guy who was only playing his 2nd or 3rd game ran out to block a conversion roaring his head off.

The conversion went over but the ref gave him a serious talking to,if it had been missed the conversion would have been retaken and if it happened again the opposition would restart the game with a penalty from halfway.

You change a kicker to block the shot, not to distract (at least that's the theory if not the practice). Shouting can't block a kick so it's only point is to distract. I'll never forget Martin Roberts (I think) at Scarlets being penalised for shouting at a player taking a kick in open play. Never seen that before.

Running towards a kicker is seldom going to block a shot...it usually takes too long to get to him..............

so, effective blocking would be better to stay in position and get a ladder. How would the refs respond to that? I guess overly-strict Poite would actually red card the player who tried it. Poite infuriates me with his pedanticism.

I have a vague memory of once, a long time ago, a kick being so low over the bar, that the props lifted a seconf row with the intention of blocking the kick... Cant remember the outcome though...

No9 wrote:I have a vague memory of once, a long time ago, a kick being so low over the bar, that the props lifted a seconf row with the intention of blocking the kick... Cant remember the outcome though...

NZ tried this a lot one season. I think it was banned
Certainly they stopped doing it

In tennis, golf and snooker it's still normal practice to stay silent while someone prepares to serve etc. Why is this dying out in rugby?

John Eels stopped a kick over the posts didn't he?

ebop wrote:Booing, jeering at, or singing over the haka is good imo. Booing kickers is the norm and expected and it's more spooky when it's silent like in Ireland. But I actually thought the England fans were quiet during our kicks? I'm sure at least the first one was as I remember thinking it was odd. Maybe I'm wrong there. Booing McCaw in his after match interview wasn't cool though. I don't even think boorish NZ fans do that, pretty disappointing really. I noted a different vibe in the ground in the weekend. The constant booing at decisions that were clearly correct. Not noticed that before at twickers.

Weird more like.

Dan Parks Penalty Scotland versus Ireland 2010....Get in there my son....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NdvuYcvk5k

Intotouch wrote:In tennis, golf and snooker it's still normal practice to stay silent while someone prepares to serve etc. Why is this dying out in rugby?

The French boo and jeer like crazy. It's what they do and I think it's great. Nowt to do with disrespect. You could argue that the booing and jeering is in fact a sign of respect. Neil Jenkins said he much preferred noise to absolute silence when kicking btw.

Intotouch wrote:In tennis, golf and snooker it's still normal practice to stay silent while someone prepares to serve etc. Why is this dying out in rugby?

In tennis, golf and snooker it's normal practice to stay silent throughout any actual action taking place (i.e. while points are being played in tennis, before any shot is played in the latter two) and applaud afterwards. Rugby obviously has much more continuous action. People have made the point that it's somewhat odd to demand total silence when a player is preparing a place-kick, but make loud noises to disrupt opposition line-out calls, or to put off a player from catching a high ball, etc. Ultimately the "silence for the kicker" is there only really because of tradition, which only exists in some places. I personally like it, but it doesn't bother me too much when teams boo either.

Anyone else heard Mike Phillips attempting to put off the opposition's hooker throwing in a lineout? Chopsing random numbers at 90 miles an hour is very impressive.

Clutch kick that one Cardiff Dave, nuts of steel. When a kicker kicks for goal and it's silent it must feel like every single eye in the crowd is boring a hole through him. You wouldn't want to be self conscious. I think DC said that the silence spooks him to.

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

What about Puff the Magic Dragon? He lives by the sea btw.

When I've seen England vs New Zealand I have always sung Swing Low Sweet Chariot. It's the English response to the Haka. I don't see a problem with it.

Should the crowd just be in complete silence and in awe of the Haka? No - I think a response is fair as long as it's not booing or abusive.

As for the homophobic abuse of Nigel Owens - that's wrong.

Secret Fly
I agree with you on media hype. I think we all agree. And no, the real fans (Irish, Welsh, English) who know rugby, also know England are not world beaters. Nothing wrong with that ambition, but we are a little way off at the moment.
And the ample resources thing ? Too right and English fans think no differently from you on that and for our part, it is frustrating for the fans. And a bit of a puzzle too. That topic often comes around again on these boards but i have never seen a convincing explanation as to why England seem to punch below the collective weight of their resources. Confused by the choices is about as close as I can get. Then some might say a better management would deal wth that... and around we go again.

Frankly I have heard offensive remarks in most places, which is neither good nor right. For most of us I think the good news is this crap comes from a small minority. These are the idiots which deserve to be pounded into being an even smaller minority, but then that would only cement other stupid ideas in other people. Kind of a no win situation. Which is a shame. If it happens in your area in any stadium, simply ask them to swan dive from the upper deck (and offer support to help them do so).

I have no problem with singing or chanting during the Haka. As long as it stays on the right side of the line. Neither insulting nor offensive. The Haka is a great part of our sport and wouldn't want to see it eliminated.

On the other hand, that stupid version with the throat cutting gesture should stop (if they still do it). That is offensive to a much larger group of people than the entire population of NZ and people need to recognise that point. Where I grew up when my folks were posted to Africa, if you did that to anyone, someone would end up bloody.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Drowning out the Haka is not xenophobic. Nor is booing the opposition kicker.

What about Puff the Magic Dragon? He lives by the sea btw.

Dave, I have a few questions:
Is Puff male or female?
Since Puff likes little kids, is he a creeper?
When Puff frolicks in the Autumn mist, who is with Puff? And what exactly is Puff doing?
When has Puff lined up to kick at goal? Who does he play for?

On a slight tangent, does anyone else find it funny (not haha) that if someone says 'you g@y see you next tuesday' then the offensive bit is only bit which is actually true?

Just an aside really, I get that the fact his sexuality is said an insult itself is the reason its wrong.

Anyway I was at the game last weekend and around me the complaints about him were based on his knowledge of the laws of the game rather than his personal preferences!

I look at the title of this article and cant help thinking that out of 80K supporters (or whatever the final total) the chances of not finding a few complete merchant bankers is nil.