England vs Australia

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Billy out for 3-4 months.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Re-Wade

I honestly think his time has gone...

He's 25!

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Re-Wade

I honestly think his time has gone...

He's 25!

It's not about his age - it's about whether he will get a look in with Nowell, Watson, May, Daly, Yarde and Roko all clearly ahead of him in Eddie's mind. Never say never, but it would take either a dramatic improvement in whatever Wade's deficiencies are seen as (probably defensive positioning, because his tackling has improved), or a string of injuries similar to the one that's seen Tom Wood return to an England shirt...

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Re-Wade

I honestly think his time has gone...

He's 25!

It's not about his age - it's about whether he will get a look in with Nowell, Watson, May, Daly, Yarde and Roko all clearly ahead of him in Eddie's mind.

It's about age in one key sense: Jones will likely not stay England coach throughout Wade's career. In other respects, you are right about how difficult it is to break into a side once a coach has established a ranking in his own mind. I think it would take a combination of losses and injuries to see Wade given a shot. He may not even feature much against Argentina next year, since there'll probably be players in front of him even if the Lions take a few.

Still, if Wade plays a prominent role in a successful Wasps side, then that would put him in the Ashton slot, but with age and better discipline on his side.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Re-Wade

I honestly think his time has gone...

He's 25!

It's not about his age - it's about whether he will get a look in with Nowell, Watson, May, Daly, Yarde and Roko all clearly ahead of him in Eddie's mind. Never say never, but it would take either a dramatic improvement in whatever Wade's deficiencies are seen as (probably defensive positioning, because his tackling has improved), or a string of injuries similar to the one that's seen Tom Wood return to an England shirt...

I'd argue his positioning has no fewer lapses than May, Daly, Yarde and Roko. His tackling is weaker than May, Roko and Daly but probably on par with Yarde and certainly on par with Watson. Although Watson's positioning is very strong from either wing or fullback - whilst his pace and footwork are fantastic it's Watson's reading of the game that sets him apart from our other wingers in my opinion.

Nowell is our strongest defender on the wing by a country mile. After that it's fighting over empty crisp packets. Thankfully Gustard's very strong fringe and rush defence has been preventing sides regularly getting the yards over the gainline they used to against England. Without regular quick ball against them the wings haven't been exposed as much.

Joseph being a fantastic defender of the outside channel helps shield our wingers a lot as well.

In reality all that just makes it less likely Wade will get a chance sadly. If the coaches were to try a guy like Wade it would surely be in a winning side with a strong defence and Joseph inside him. If not now with Nowell and Watson injured then I can't really see when.

I wouldnt have Wade anywhere near an England squad, i think hes hugely overated by a lot of posters on here. He has way too many major flaws to his game which would be exploited on the Int stage.

Carlos, what that adds up to is that you've said that Nowell, May, Daly, Roko and Watson all have at least one edge over Wade - and I would argue that Yarde may ultimately fail to complete as many tackles as Wade, but Wade's misses tend to be airshots while Yarde at least makes contact. In Gustard's system, which relies on pressure and team tackling, that actually counts for a lot.

The other thing that may explain Wade's absence is Eddie's explicit preference for "coachable" players. He's already said that Yarde is, and the value he's got from May and Daly suggests that they're also in that camp. If Wade isn't in his thoughts, then it may be that he simply isn't responding as well to coaching.

Would just have liked Wade to get a couple more games for England and seen. His only one albeit against a weakened Argentina was a flawless motm style performance. If only Gatland hadn't have called him up for the Lions in a patch work side he may have got a chance (though Kvesic didn't in similar example).

Both Wade and Kvesic have had chances with the Saxons, though. Although it's not quite the same intensity it's proven a reasonably effective proving ground for potential internationals. Neither Lancaster nor Eddie has seen fit to take them beyond that level.

Yup, and I'll maintain Wade at least has shown more in attack than anyone and no less in defence. Moot point, he's not going to get picked no matter what.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup, and I'll maintain Wade at least has shown more in attack than anyone and no less in defence. Moot point, he's not going to get picked no matter what.

But coaches are not idiots, and they have access to more information about players than we do. This isn't a Jack Rowell style "Neil Back's too small for international rugby", it's reasonable to assume that they see some skills gap that we don't.

Would love to know what it is though. It may have been defence years ago now.

Or that you cant just select everyone all the time.
When Wade was getting his chance there were plenty of other names been bandied about as being overlooked. It would be advantageous if England were allowed to pick 6 wingers for every game in addition to the usual 13 other players, certainly it would make Mays life a lot easier when Daley gets himself red carded.
Unfortunately World Rugby turned down that suggestion and instead implemented the 16th man SH referee law for any game England play in Dublin.

Which simply comes down to why Jones and Lancaster (to a lesser extent as Wade picked up unfortunate injuries) doesn't pick him. Best winger by a distance in attack, much improved defence. Still had a stigma for being a midget.

I've seen Wade more than a few times this season and he's still a weak link in defence. I do get that he's improved, he was a shambles, now he's just poor imo.

His positioning has got better but he still struggles under the high ball and gets brushed aside in defence. Watson at Falcons gave him a bit of run around a few weeks back.

Yarde is a guy who struggles under the high ball, defence and basic catching.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yarde is a guy who struggles under the high ball, defence and basic catching.

Not to anywhere the extent Wade does imo. Yarde is a physical lad, he often holds his own or puts people back. It's more a concentration thing rather than a lack of ability. Wade is having these issues in the AP week in week out, Yarde has the odd slip at Int level, slight difference.

Much more actually. But I agree fully with the second part and that's the reason that Wade ain't getting a look in; too small.

BBC wrote:England team:

M Brown (Harlequins); M Yarde (Harlequins), J Joseph (Bath), O Farrell (Saracens), J May (Gloucester); G Ford (Bath), B Youngs (Leicester)

M Vunipola (Saracens), D Hartley (Northampton, capt), D Cole (Leicester), C Lawes (Northampton), G Kruis (Saracens), C Robshaw (Harlequins), T Wood (Northampton), N Hughes (Wasps).

Replacements: J George (Saracens), J Marler (Harlequins), K Sinckler (Harlequins), C Ewels (Bath), T Harrison (Northampton), D Care (Harlequins), B Te'o (Worcester), H Slade (Exeter).

As predicted then.

Fairly average English side.

It'll beat the Aussies.

Interestingly Attwood and Roko are traveling reserves.

The Aussies will be very up for this so am really looking forward to seeing how it pans out.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Interestingly Attwood and Roko are traveling reserves.

The Aussies will be very up for this so am really looking forward to seeing how it pans out.

So who is carrying injuries? Or is it a tactic to allow change if the Aussies surprise him with their selection. Ooopps, sorry hurt my toe, can't play you will have to go with Roko

So does EJ assume that Hughes will do the full game or does he think we can manage for 20 mins or so with the back row that finished against Argentina?

Otherwise no complaints.

Nah you'll see Harrison on at some point.

Whilst he looks too lightweight to me for a 8, his fringe tackling and rucking was pretty good, so Eddie may see that as a means to close the game out of keep it tight at the end...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nah you'll see Harrison on at some point.

Whilst he looks too lightweight to me for a 8, his fringe tackling and rucking was pretty good, so Eddie may see that as a means to close the game out of keep it tight at the end...

Back to Lancaster's 'lets just play lots of 6.5's' tactics. At least we know EJ will make it work.

Ah I guess LIW.

Ive not hidden the fact im not impressed with Harrison....however ill give praise when warranted, and against Argentina, 2 of his tackles directly led to turnovers. And he was very disruptive when they had the ball.

I suspect that would not have gone un-noticed by Eddie and Paul Gustard.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ive not hidden the fact im not impressed with Harrison....however ill give praise when warranted, and against Argentina, 2 of his tackles directly led to turnovers. And he was very disruptive when they had the ball.

Harrison seems to be taking longer than most to get used to the step up in pressure but I think he's starting to settle.

Once he does I'm confident he'll replicate the form that saw him win player of the year at Saints last season. Exactly the type of player Jones likes.

Expect Australia to ship the ball wide and target Yarde, whose defending has been pretty awful all season - for a stocky lad he comes out second best in the collisions in both defence and attack.
Maybe I'm biased....

On the flip side, why can't Roko and Attwood be released to play for Bath against the league leaders...???

bathmad wrote:On the flip side, why can't Roko and Attwood be released to play for Bath against the league leaders...???

The conspiracy theorist would suggest the links with Sarries held by 3 of the England coaches was the reason.

A question to you good England followers.
Do you think Farrell will remain England's 12 long term?
Or will Slade take over at some point?

Farrell will remain at 12 until any of the pretenders show they are worthy of the spot.

Up to now....none of them have!

I can see it changing till Ford proves hes a reliable goal kicker and a world class 12 appears out of the blue, or Fords forms h1ts the bed to the point that Farrell moves to 10.

Obviously injuries/suspensions could force a change which then becomes permananet ... but i dont see a change being made if things stay the same. Its working, theres not an immediate and obvious improvement that would be made by changing it pr a need for one.

I think Farrell's starting to get a little pressure now for that 12 spot. Don't think he's been particularly good this autumn bar his kicking and his defence has been actually rather poor.

Any one have a favourite to replace him in the 12 shirt?

Only real contender for me is Tuilagi but would change the tactics deployed. Te'o is looking quite handy so we may see a little more of him.

carpet baboon wrote:A question to you good England followers.
Do you  think Farrell will remain England's 12 long term?
Or will Slade take over at some point?

He's a great goal-kicker and is part of the leadership group, he captained England when Billy and Hartley went off. At the moment, I can't see him losing his place. I have been critical of him in the past for being hot headed and a cheap shot merchant, he seems to have lost this side of his game.

Long term, given the way injuries occur, Lions tours etc, I expect to see Slade get a few starts at 12, maybe even 10 but Ford and Farrell are first choice.

If he keeps his form ok I'd have Slade on the bench as he covers so many positions.

Yeah I've been quite impressed by Teo this autumn, can see what Jones sees in him. Would require a change of tactics though. As it is, I think Farrell has settled into the role pretty well, his tackle on Hernandez (I think) led directly to the penalty try in the Argentina game, his distribution has been pretty sound, and that bit of extra time you get on the ball at 12 (compared to 10) seems to suit him. He's also one of the leaders, and while you can like his at times confrontational attitude or not, I think it does help the team.

I used to think the 12 shirt would eventually be Slade, who certainly has the skillset, but right now I'm not so sure, could honestly see Farrell as the long-term option there.

Long term, Mallinder could be a great 12. Not there yet, though.

Jones has always liked having different tactical options in his squads. He likes to be able to shift a game plan depending on opposition and rotate his players as needed from game to game.

That as much as anything is why Te'o is in this squad I think. With Farrell/Slade as his 12 options then Joseph/Daly at 13 he wouldn't have much scope to change thing if he wanted. Even if it were just a case of changing things in training to see how it runs. That's what Te'o offers, a tactical difference to his other options.

If Manu can stay fit then he will replace Te'o in that role very rapidly. Especially given that he is more of an impact player from the bench than Te'o if EJ decide to stick with the play maker at 12.

Decent but still targetable Aussie team

I think the Aussies will have to try an England v France game (circa 2015) and try to encourage a loose madcap game of wild running and off-the-cuff passing.  Play it extremely loose and extremely fast and then see who comes out on top at the end.  It's a game that accepts tries will be scored against you but by giving the opposition the urge to attack freely it also potentially opens up plenty of counter0-attack action.

If they try to play it with lovely decorum and manners, and engage in ordered setpieces, they might be crucified.  But if they try to get an unstructured game motoring then at least they'll have a fighting chance to come out on top.

Should be a blast of a game if the Aussie's come ready to do battle in WC mood.

This game will be tighter than May's grip on Mako's thigh.

I predict a marginal win, just not sure who has the edge but if England do manage it then the momentum shift from SH domination is official and not just something we imagined.

Its post RWC doldrums and extraordinary how the biggest failure at RWC has turned it around in a spectacular way while the successful sides have all seen a big dip in fortunes. Just think if Lancaster had made the 1/4s he'd still be there.

Im actually very wary of this game. The Aussies will be absolutely raging for this game. And if they get the offloading, open game going they will be some opposition!

My biggest concerns are the back row.

Our back row in the summer was physical - Billy, Haskell and Robshaw

Hughes replaces Billy
Wood replaces Haskell

Can Hughes give us the same amount of go forward and work rate that Billy can for 80 mins. I don't think he can do it for 80 mins....and T.Harrison is a very different player to replace him after 50/60 mins!

And Can Wood perform Haskells role to the level of physicality that Haskell did.

Geordiefalcon problem we have is that Billy of 2014 was inferior to Billy of 2015- present.

His fitness and workrate was not that good. It's difficult to expect Hughes to be as good as Billy.

It's why I wanted Hughes to have a 80 minute run before the Aussie game. Not throw him into the deep end.

Wood's workrate has always been pretty good. He's less of a worry in my opinion.

no 7 & 1/2 surprisingly I agree. Farrell has indeed been disappointing.


Poor Rokodiguini, perhaps he has his flaws but seen as inferior to Yarde? Really?

I think it's a mistake picking Yarde.

Oh im not questioning Woods fitness and workrate Beshocked, im hoping we are not losing the physicality that over powered Australia.

Re Roko - I think its workrate. Whatever else Yarde is, he's generally played well under Jones and he is a VERY busy winger. He looks for work. Likewise May.

Maybe its just that Jones doesn't think he works hard enough around the pitch. Yet thinks its something that he can work on as he's kept him in the frame....

With Roko, his defensive positioning against Fiji was also very poor IMO. Naidolo's try he got caught out drifting in far too narrow when there was no need for instance. Others have pointed out that while Yarde technically misses tackles, he's usually able to make at least a half tackle and slow down the opposition, allowing his inside cover to get across.

Geordiefalcon I thought Roko got himself involved a lot vs Fiji.

I thought Roko was the best player vs Fiji, sure it's only Fiji but still.

If Yarde was a defensive rock or in great form I might understand but he's neither of those.

Of course Roko has his flaws but I just feel like he's been treating harsher for his errors which didn't IMO outweigh the good he did.

Yes he butchered a potential try vs Fiji though it was a great break by him and should have perhaps stopped Naidolo as you say Mad for Chelsea but he scored 2 and was a menace in attack.

I do not think that Yarde offers the same either in attack or defence.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:With Roko, his defensive positioning against Fiji was also very poor IMO. Naidolo's try he got caught out drifting in far too narrow when there was no need for instance. Others have pointed out that while Yarde technically misses tackles, he's usually able to make at least a half tackle and slow down the opposition, allowing his inside cover to get across.

I think it's that plus confidence. If Roko got torn to shreds by Oz, which is a distinct possibility given their outside backs, he might never come back from it. Yarde is at least competent at making himself enough of a speedbump for Joseph or Woodshaw to cover, and has shown that he can take being dropped and come back from it. I think Yarde understands that he's a fringe player and will approach every opportunity with maximum enthusiasm, effort and determination to do as much of what he's asked to do as he's currently capable of.

Roko I think has a less adaptable style of play and will need to be eased into the system more carefully - but ultimately has more potential. I think Eddie might see Roko as one of his long term bench options: he's a player who can change a game in the last 20 minutes running against tired legs. But before he can be used to do that he needs to fix his positioning and Eddie needs to develop another outside back (Daly? Slade? Watson?) who can cover fullback so that he can justify having a pure wing on the bench.

Speaking of which it'll be Slade covering full back by the looks of it, or possibly May?

It's a decent enough England team and I think England should have enough to win this. It's been a long season for Australia and I think the England pack will have enough intensity to see off the Aussies.

Agree with Beshocked on Roko vs Yarde. I think Roko offers much more in attack and I don't think there's an awful lot to choose between them in defence. Still, both just keeping the jersey warm for Watson to return. I am pleased though to see May getting a decent run again.

Whether England win or win well does, in my view, hinge on which George Ford shows up. When he's on song England are much more dangerous.