England vs USA - match thread

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:33 am

Much changed England team named this morning. Will add USA team as I find it.

ENGLAND:
Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Curry, Ludlam, Vunipola, Heinz, Ford (C), Cokanasiga, Francis, Joseph, McConnochie, Daly
Singleton, Genge, Sinckler, Lawes, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, Watson

USA:
Ainuu, Taufetee, Lamositele, Landry, Civetta, Lamborn, Quill, Dolan, Davies, Macginty, Iosefo, Lasike, Brache, Scully, Hooley
Fawsitt, Kilifi, Mullen, Peterson, Germishuys, De Hass, Campbell, Teo


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Post by robbo277 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:36 am

So 11 changes to the England starting line-up, with Curry, Vunipola, Ford and Daly retaining their places, although I'm sure Curry and Vunipola are being earmarked for early rests.

You'd hope this should be more than enough to see off the USA.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:40 am

And marler mate.
Youd hope that they all come off v early 2nd half.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:48 am

Missed Marler, not sure why I thought Genge had started.

I guess we'll be looking for a fast start and early tries to allow us to make some changes earlier on.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:08 pm

robbo277 wrote:Missed Marler, not sure why I thought Genge had started.

I guess we'll be looking for a fast start and early tries to allow us to make some changes earlier on.

Marler came off unusually early - it may even have been half time. Eddie is clearly balancing the workload between them but see Joe as the more secure starter. I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a brief to focus on tackling Lasike whenever he can. He's one of the players best able to do that, especially in the absence of Lawes and Tuilagi.
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Post by robbo277 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:03 pm

I've only seen a Lasike highlight reel so can't talk with too much expertise, but from what I saw he'll be eyeing up England's 10/12 combination. I'm not sure how much Marler would be able to help off first phase though.

Will we send big Joe to defend the centres off first phase or rely on Ludlam getting across to help?

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:14 pm

Henry Slade reportedly ruled out of this one with a slight knee injury - the one he picked up against Tonga you'd guess.

Mako Vunipola and Jack Nowell will also be available for selection against Argentina.

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:41 pm

Lasike is the 12, right? Combination of Francis stepping in and Ludlam covering should be sufficient? JJ has the pace to get up to cut off the outside threat, and Daly, Ford drifting behind for cover.

I'm not concerned about the centres, Francis and JJ are both quality defenders. Ford makes his tackles too, although not necessarily on the gain line.


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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 1:57 pm

In four starts and one bench appearance recently, Ford has made 35 tackles and missed 2. Sure he is not a dominant tackler and by the size of him you would expect him to be a target but he is neither hidden in defence nor a liability.

(Note Farrell and Manu miss way more - but they are used in a different way)

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 2:06 pm

Lawes is getting through some work, didn't he play in all of the warm ups and now it seems he will participate in all of the cup games in some way.

From Memory Gatland used him a similar way for the Lions, played midweek and benched the tests coming on for AWJ just after half time when he started to blow.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 2:27 pm

Lasike is a big unit, though unless he's worked on his tackling he's a red card risk for the USA. If he gets up a head of steam he will be hard to stop.

Ludlam and Francis will definitely be tasked with being quick off the line and in the oppositions' faces. Outside of first phase, though, England have used Marler quite a lot as a second tackler to finish off big runners when the primary defender has slowed them down. They also use him to scare away less aggressive carriers - you do occasionally spot a back having second thoughts about going down his channel, and it's quite funny when it happens.
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 2:30 pm

Poorfour wrote:
England have used Marler quite a lot as a second tackler to finish off big runners when the primary defender has slowed them down
 That has been Farrell and Manu's role for midfield ball carriers - stop them dead then let someone else finish it off.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 2:50 pm

Is Lasike the notable name in the USA line up then? Couple of other familiar names from the Jeff, but are there any other players to keep an eye on?

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 6:15 pm

Too many changes, fully expect another stuttering performance.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 6:32 pm

I am not to happy with Billy V starting again. would of liked to see him rested for this game, do not want him to get burnt out in the early stages of the RWC.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 6:50 pm

Wilson at 8 should have been enough for the usa, would have kept billy fresh for the Argies.
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 7:58 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Too many changes, fully expect another stuttering performance.

More than I expected but.... 

1) They played a hugely physical side only 4 days before this game
2) Day after Tonga game they had a flight of over 1,000 km and two sets of transfers
3) They have just one full training session (today) before the match, so Eddie had been preparing two teams simultaneously

Maybe you never played, or have forgotten what it was like, but as an adult recovering from the collisions would have made playing midweek very hard to do. In fact the rare times I did I always got injured. Now obviously they are at a higher level with better recovery processes, but also the collisions are bigger. Playing too many of the same guys would have been a recipe for disaster.

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Post by westisbest on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:22 pm

Thought USA would have played Madison Hughes. Very good at 7’s, 15’s different ball game, but though he would have played, (unless he’s injured).

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:37 pm

LondonTiger wrote:In four starts and one bench appearance recently, Ford has made 35 tackles and missed 2. Sure he is not a dominant tackler and by the size of him you would expect him to be a target but he is neither hidden in defence nor a liability.

(Note Farrell and Manu miss way more - but they are used in a different way)

Yeah, Ford has decent completion stats but often rides the tackle and waits for someone else to come and complete it. You can get over the gainline against him, especially if you send a bigger carrier down his channel. They might therefore target him on first phase to get quick ball.

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Post by Taylorman on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:45 pm

Smart theyve rested as many as possible. With virtually five straight knockouts (even if they can afford to drop one of two), keeping fit and uninjured is paramount.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:03 pm

robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:In four starts and one bench appearance recently, Ford has made 35 tackles and missed 2. Sure he is not a dominant tackler and by the size of him you would expect him to be a target but he is neither hidden in defence nor a liability.

(Note Farrell and Manu miss way more - but they are used in a different way)

He has a tendency to target the ball. Gets more rips than anyone his size has a right to. Means when he gets shunted back the ball goes to ground and has to be recycled as opposed to an offload and in behind.

Yeah, Ford has decent completion stats but often rides the tackle and waits for someone else to come and complete it. You can get over the gainline against him, especially if you send a bigger carrier down his channel. They might therefore target him on first phase to get quick ball.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 5:17 am

majesticimperialman wrote:I am not to happy with Billy V starting again. would have liked to see him rested for this game, do not want him to get burnt out in the early stages of the RWC.
Jones says he feels Vunipola pays better when he has a run of games. He probably also thinks the player has a higher chance of getting injured if he drops in and out of the schedule.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 8:27 am

BamBam wrote:Is Lasike the notable name in the USA line up then? Couple of other familiar names from the Jeff, but are there any other players to keep an eye on?

He's the one I've watched the most of, because he plays for Quins. He could be brilliant for them or he could go off with a card... The key I think is to starve him of possession and make him defend big runners, where his gridiron tackling technique exposes him.

I'd say Maginty is the more notable player though, plus Lamositele.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 9:27 am

BBC article here which touches upon the perilous nature of a short turnaround I.e. Fiji spoiling my predictions run.
England v USA: Eddie Jones confident his side will deal with Rugby World Cup short turnaround - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49822805

:We've done a fair bit of homework for this turnaround," Jones told BBC Sport.

"We trialled a four-day turnaround against Japan last autumn, to make sure the players have experience of it."
We've tried to work out which players need a rest. Each player is different - some players need a longer time to recover, and some are much better off when they're in form to keep playing."

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Post by BamBam on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 9:47 am

Just had a quick look at the Fiji line ups in both games, there were probably a similar number of changes to that which we've made for tomorrow's game

Key is definitely going to be how we recover after tomorrow, giving enough time to those who have done a double shift while keeping those who aren't in the squad for USA sharp enough given it'll be almost 2 weeks between the Tonga and Argentina games


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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 10:38 am

I think 10 changes is too many, I think it will be another struggle to get the bonus point wrapped up early.
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Post by Rinsure on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:31 am

TightHEAD wrote:I think 10 changes is too many, I think it will be another struggle to get the bonus point wrapped up early.

To be fair, it doesn't matter if it's wrapped up in the 40th minute or the 83rd...

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:36 am

Rinsure wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I think 10 changes is too many, I think it will be another struggle to get the bonus point wrapped up early.

To be fair, it doesn't matter if it's wrapped up in the 40th minute or the 83rd...

It does matter if you are trying to sell beer, No one was getting up to buy it before we wrapped up the bonus point where I was. thumbsup
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Post by Poorfour on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:37 am

Quite, Rinsure.

The pundits and fans want to see a fluid, powerful, mistake free England.

Eddie wants to see a win, no injuries, a bonus point and a team that isn't peaking too early, in that order.
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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:38 am

Shaun Mr Fitzpatrick wasn't holding back at HT during the Fiji v Uruguay game, said it was very disrespectful for Fiji to make 12 changes.

Maybe the US will feel the same.


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Post by BamBam on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:39 am

I haven't seen his comments but I'm surprised at that. It was a three day turnaround, its not reasonable to expect them to play the same team again

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:42 am

Whatever Tiger, whatever.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:44 am

TightHEAD wrote:Shaun Fitzpatrick wasn't holding back at HT during the Fiji v Uruguay game, said it was very disrespectful for Fiji to make 12 changes.

Maybe the US will feel the same.

If SEAN Fitzpatrick said that then he is being crazy. Fiji left the last game completely battered (I think 3 of the changes were forced by HIA protocols) and had no choice to make mass changes. At least England have a depth of quality to allow us to do the same with less of a drop in quality.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:45 am

Mr Fitzpatrick to you.
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Post by Poorfour on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:46 am

TightHEAD wrote:Shaun Fitzpatrick wasn't holding back at HT during the Fiji v Uruguay game, said it was very disrespectful for Fiji to make 12 changes.

Maybe the US will feel the same.

I get why pundits do that. But the truth is that selection for a four day turnaround has naff all to do with respect and everything to do with what players' bodies can take.

Were Japan disrespectful to Scotland for fielding a different side than the one that best Sout Africa? No, they were knackered.

I remember watching an Anglo Welsh game years ago where Quins had had to play a rescheduled and crucial Premiership game on the Wednesday, so changed 14 players between the games. The Ospreys fielded 11 current Welsh internationals and Jiffy whined on and on about disrespect rather than that it was remarkable that anyone could play 80 minutes of professional rugby in 4 days.

The shame was that after a poor first half, Quins came back to lead and were only denied when a very dodgy refereeing decision gave the 'Spreys a last minute try that won it for them
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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:46 am

Hmmm, not sure I fully buy this peaking at the right time stuff. Not much use peaking for a Final if you go out in the QF (pre-peaked and playing the ABs for example). And if you peak for your QF, does that mean you’re past your peak should you reach the Final.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:51 am

New Zealand play Canada and four days later Namibia. They are unlikely to play a full strength side in either of those fixtures and you can be sure very few will start both. Will anyone honestly claim that is disrespectful?

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Post by Rinsure on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 12:02 pm

Poorfour wrote:
BamBam wrote:Is Lasike the notable name in the USA line up then? Couple of other familiar names from the Jeff, but are there any other players to keep an eye on?

He's the one I've watched the most of, because he plays for Quins. He could be brilliant for them or he could go off with a card... The key I think is to starve him of possession and make him defend big runners, where his gridiron tackling technique exposes him.

I'd say Maginty is the more notable player though, plus Lamositele.

Some intel on the USA hooker, from the 6N website:

"The man to watch from the Eagles perspective is undoubtedly hooker Joe Taufete’e. Relatively well-known to English audiences for his club showing with Worcester, it is on the international stage that he has really caught fire. The hooker has scored a staggering 20 tries in just 23 caps – that try tally is already more than any other player in the history of the game in the tight five. A threat both from rolling mauls but also with his smart footwork near the line, the 26-year-old will take some stopping on Thursday."

I'll put my hands up, I don't recall seeing him for Worcester. That's some scoring record though, puts a lot of wingers to shame.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 12:06 pm

Looking at wiki he's played 25 times for Worcs since December 2016 (6 tries)

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 12:28 pm

lostinwales wrote:Looking at wiki he's played 25 times for Worcs since December 2016 (6 tries)

That may be more than Te'o managed Very Happy

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Post by hugehandoff on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 12:28 pm

This could obviously be a real banana skin for Eng if we are not smart and don't match their aggression. USA's first match and they will be pumped - their final in essence. I would like to see England be real smart and use Kruis and Launchbury effectively. Let's frustrate them and get good rolling mauls going and play in the right parts of the pitch. They will want England to be expansive and will look to smash us in the contact so how about not giving them the chance for the first 20 minutes. Take their steam away and establish a lead. Later when their heads go down we can add the icing to the cake.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 12:36 pm

https://warriors.co.uk/teams/joe-taufetee/

Worcester seem to use him as an impact sub, average of 23 minutes per appearance in the Prem last season and only 11 at that. Probably third choice. I think I remember seeing him play, can't say he made much of an impression. He's big enough to carry hard and will add some weight to the USA front row

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:14 pm

Despite the changes I'd be surprised if England arent 20 ahead after half an hour.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 3:09 pm

Rinsure wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I think 10 changes is too many, I think it will be another struggle to get the bonus point wrapped up early.

To be fair, it doesn't matter if it's wrapped up in the 40th minute or the 83rd...

It does if you want to bring Marler, Curry and Vunipola off.

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Post by miaow on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 3:25 pm

We've seen what a first match for a minnow/tier 2 nation (are Uruguay tier 3? I never know...) against a rotated team with a 4 day turnaround can bring.

There's basically no point reading anything in to England until at least the Arg and France games, but even then I feel they won't pull out the finer details until the knockouts. They should have enough to get past those two teams, who are sloppy in their own unique ways, by letting them play themselves in to trouble.

A good showing for the US would be good to see. A US/Canada-based RWC in 2027 or 2031 would be great.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 4:32 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Rinsure wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I think 10 changes is too many, I think it will be another struggle to get the bonus point wrapped up early.

To be fair, it doesn't matter if it's wrapped up in the 40th minute or the 83rd...

It does if you want to bring Marler, Curry and Vunipola off.

So true, why risk Billy V again?
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Post by king_carlos on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 4:43 pm

A huge opportunity for Ludlam. If he puts in a good performance then the option of sticking with two opensides against Argentina but resting Curry opens up. Wilson and Underhill seems the natural selection for Argentina with this selection for USA.

Argentina wouldn't be a bad game to rest Curry for either way. They have a very abrasive back row so Wilson would be suited to facing them, he'd be well suited to facing Matera as an opposite number.

It's a shame that Facundo Isa isn't at the RWC but it's still a strong Argentina back row. Ortega Desio is a 55 cap international now and Kremer is a very talented flanker.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 4:45 pm

Not sure wilson is considered first choice over underhill and curry but even if true curry for me has been the better openside. Hes also been used as the 3rd lineout option.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 5:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure wilson is considered first choice over underhill and curry but even if true curry for me has been the better openside. Hes also been used as the 3rd lineout option.
My post was saying that two opensides seems Jones' first choice now. I'd be surprised if Curry and Billy both start 3 games in a fortnight though. Curry, Underhill and Vunipola is the back row England will want for the knockout stages.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 6:39 pm

Ah sorry.

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