The Jeff means more to the English than the Rabid means to the Celts

Being based on a league system (and I can't speak for the French), Jeff supporters have always to live with both aspiration and desperation.

No trap-door for Rabid supporters in the event of ultimate failure is very humane and gives them perpetual hope - and provides a perpetual National development process plus pretty much a guarantee of elite European qualification.

So English (and French?) club players have to break their backs week in week out whilst Celtic players sit in their Noel Coward smoking jackets sitting stuff out.

But the desire of all fans of all nations to succeed is equal. But I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Rabid.

(this post may be a bit provocative)

We care more about the HC then the French do and possibly the English. Our league is used to develop national sides but the top players do see significant enough game time. They usually play around half the games in the league. How many games would an English player like Foden play in a year?

The horse is dead Portnoy, stop flogging it. Alternatively, get on of those new-fangled CD players or an MP3 or an iPod, that way the neddle won't get stuck -

Portnoy wrote:Being based on a league system (and I can't speak for the French), Jeff supporters have always to live with both aspiration and desperation.

No trap-door for Rabid supporters in the event of ultimate failure is very humane and gives them perpetual hope - and provides a perpetual National development process plus pretty much a guarantee of elite European qualification.

So English (and French?) club players have to break their backs week in week out whilst Celtic players sit in their Noel Coward smoking jackets sitting stuff out.

But the desire of all fans of all nations to succeed is equal. But I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Rabid.

(this post may be a bit provocative)

Yup, and simply untrue

I wouldn't say provocative. Repetitive, maybe.

Contradictory, too. The desire of all fans is equal, but the Jeff means more to its fans?

Your points on guaranteed qualification have little to do with the workings of the leagues and more to do with the allocations each union gets and the number of clubs/regions/provinces each union has on it's books.

Players sitting out matches have everything to do with player management schemes and nothing to do with leagues. Blame your own union for being impotent in this regard. The whiff of jealousy is quite overpowering.

I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Rabid.

Meaning? Go further in what sense? Be specific.

You talk about English and French teams qualifying for the HC. But if you look at the Rabo teams that have done well in the HC they have always finished in the Top 2 in the Domestic too.

And any team in the prem that struggles to stay in the Prem does not deserve to be in the hc

Thomond

Foden played 15 games (14 starts) in the Aviva Premiership in the 2010/11 season.

I think the Irish in particular would be much more interested in the HCup than the Robbo12 to more of an extent than the French or English.

Oh yawn.

Usual tripe

red_stag wrote:Usual tripe

Oh I don't think that's entirely fair.

Portnoy has added a new dimension to his argument this time. By that I mean.... well, you see... actually it's just... he quite clearly.... it's undeniable that...


Never mind, It's entirely fair.

I'm going to sit on the fence.

I can see plus an minus with both systems.

But it all really depends on what you consider more important Club or Country.

Not exactly true. In both leagues there are sides that expect to be in the play-offs who concentrate on the HC more, and only pay attention to the League when they need to, and there are teams that put their all into the League.

It is a worrying point, but not necessarily an accurate one. Back in the days when we all played non Regional rugby, back prior to 2000, we were all far more concerned about the amount of rugby the players were playing. THat is one of the reasons those of us who did, made the change.

There is still plenty of competitive rugby played by the regions outside the Pro12, which does have European qualification for some of us and a play off system too now. HEC, LV= and the Amlin all provide something encouraging as well.

The benefits of a league that the participants focus on the players National aspirations are surely self explanatory. Development is a priority and that is being emphasised more so now than ever before. The same can not be said for the Top 14 or the Aviva Premiership where stakes are too high to take risks.

Then again the Aviva top clubs have ring fenced the league in many ways to prevent a massive shake up of any sorts by stipulating certain conditions that the lower ranked clubs have to fulfil to compete. There is also the financial difference and the difference in the quality of the training facilities and coaching set ups that create a margin between a club like Leicester Tigers who are always at the top and a club like the Pirates.

I cant see Leicester Tigers ever being relegated, they may not win every year but they are very very unlikely to be relegated too. In fact I think it is safe to say that the top six clubs are very unlikely to be relegated unless they have a massive turn in financial security.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:But it all really depends on what you consider more important Clubman or Countryman.

To be honest, neither. The Cooper and the Cooper S are lovely models, but the elongated tail of the Clubman isn't that nice. And the partial door was designed for dropping kids off at school, but for the UK and Ireland market they didn't change the side of the car to put in on, meaning you drop your kids off into traffic instead.

The countryman on the other hand is an abomination. A mangling of everything the badge stands for and the complete antithesis of the word "mini"

You cant compare the two. One is an all English affair the other combines 4 different nations. You couldnt have a relegation system in the Rabbo.

munkian wrote:You cant compare the two. One is an all English affair the other combines 4 different nations. You couldnt have a relegation system in the Rabbo.

Pffffft. Oh listen to you and your logic.

I guess the other thing to take into account is the title of this article

'The Jeff means more to the English than the Rabid means to the Celts'

The teams in the Rabo have more of their own country men in them than the teams in the Jeff. So I would say that the Jeff means more to pension funders than the Rabo

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I guess the other thing to take into account is the title of this article

'The Jeff means more to the English than the Rabid means to the Celts'

The teams in the Rabo have more of their own country men in them than the teams in the Jeff. So I would say that the Jeff means more to pension funders than the Rabo

very good point. But then you have to look at the england players. Alot of them are the pension funders.

greybeard wrote:

I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Rabid.

Meaning? Go further in what sense? Be specific.

Meaning, the Premiership makes more successful teams. That's why Ireland and Wales have won 3 Grand Slams since 2005 and England have won... hmm. Well, in the Heineken Cup you certainly don't see teams from the Celtic upstarts winning... three Heineken Cups since 2008 you say? Astonishing.

i think this is backfiring a little on poor Portnoy

caoimhincentre wrote:i think this is backfiring a little on poor Portnoy

It's more dangerous than an immodium curry

greybeard wrote:

munkian wrote:You cant compare the two. One is an all English affair the other combines 4 different nations. You couldnt have a relegation system in the Rabbo.

Pffffft. Oh listen to you and your logic.

Complaining at the lack of promotion to the Pro12 is like complaining Leinster or Toulouse don't get to compete in the Six Nations.

And I don't know about the lack of fear, I certainly don't want to finish midtable or below at all. It hurts to think of it.

Notch - its not just finishing mid table that worries me, finishing less than top half of the teams from your own nation sucks.

Notch wrote:

greybeard wrote:

I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Rabid.

Meaning? Go further in what sense? Be specific.

Meaning, the Premiership makes more successful teams. That's why Ireland and Wales have won 3 Grand Slams since 2005 and England have won... hmm. Well, in the Heineken Cup you certainly don't see teams from the Celtic upstarts winning... three Heineken Cups since 2008 you say? Astonishing.

Aw come on Notch lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story?.....

Portnoy wrote: plus pretty much a guarantee of elite European qualification.

Sure. Not spoken to any Dragons fans lately ??

Look fine Portnoy I tell you what. We'll ask the other teams about it. I'm not promising anything but we'll TRY include Tigers in the Pro12 from next year on

red_stag wrote:Oh yawn.

Usual tripe

Thanks Staggy.

But I don't think so.

Where's your bet - E/F to progress further in the RWC or the Robocops?

And the next four 6Ns?

Notch wrote:

greybeard wrote:

munkian wrote:You cant compare the two. One is an all English affair the other combines 4 different nations. You couldnt have a relegation system in the Rabbo.

Pffffft. Oh listen to you and your logic.

Complaining at the lack of promotion to the Pro12 is like complaining Leinster or Toulouse don't get to compete in the Six Nations.

And I don't know about the lack of fear, I certainly don't want to finish midtable or below at all. It hurts to think of it.

As an old phart I'll admit. And to be honest I'll say this much... the results of the interpro matches probably mean more to me than the Pro12. I don't want relegation because I want to play Ulster, Munster and Connacht every year. With relegation that would be more or less impossible seeing as Connacht would be ripe for the drop. I'm glad it's not possible.

How about last four 6N

2011 England
2010 France
2009 Ireland
2008 Wales

Seems even enough. Or maybe European Cup

2011 Ireland
2010 France
2009 Ireland
2008 Ireland
2007 England
2006 Ireland

I just don't understand the point you continually raise.

Portnoy wrote:Where's your bet - E/F to progress further in the RWC or the Robocops?

And this proves the Jeff means more to English fans how? This proves relegation is a great thing in what way?

maestegmafia wrote:I cant see Leicester Tigers ever being relegated, they may not win every year but they are very very unlikely to be relegated too. In fact I think it is safe to say that the top six clubs are very unlikely to be relegated unless they have a massive turn in financial security.

Saints.....

greybeard wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Where's your bet - E/F to progress further in the RWC or the Robocops?

And this proves the Jeff means more to English fans how? This proves relegation is a great thing in what way?

I think that one or two of England, France and Ireland will reach the semi-finals.

I don't rate our chances of achieving that as any less than the previous two.

"Portonys"

Wow. For an old geez you really are quite immature. Are you not taking to retirement well?

It does depend on which Team you support. If you are a supporter of the Irish/Welsh/Scots teams that are almost guaranteed a place in the Heiny, you would be ok with watching, whilst not quite a second string, but still not full strength sides battling it out in the normal league season, knowing that you will see the best versus the best later on in the Heiny.

However, if you are a supporter of the Irish/Welsh/Scots/English/French teams that have no realistic chance of the HC, then the normal League games are all you are going to see, so they attract more significance.

Then there’s the other side of the coin, if Leicester/Northampton/Saracens/Gloucester (or whoever) send up a less than full strength side to play us due to tactical selections because of the HC, I for one won’t be tutting and grumbling into my beer, I’ll just be praying we can take advantage of the weaker team sheet and mebbes sneak a few BP’s in the confusion.

It’s all about perspective innit?

My HC team for this year is Connaught – haway the lads!

Notch wrote:

greybeard wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Where's your bet - E/F to progress further in the RWC or the Robocops?

And this proves the Jeff means more to English fans how? This proves relegation is a great thing in what way?

I think that one or two of England, France and Ireland will reach the semi-finals.

I don't rate our chances of achieving that as any less than the previous two.

To be fair, we do have a harder run to the semis because we'll have to beat a 3N team. It's possible England or France could reach the semis without beating one of the top three.

As for the Six Nations, I continue to see the next four years as being contested between these three nations.

Also, you talk about promotion- but no promoted side will ever win the Premiership. Financial imbalances make it a closed shop, I wouldn't be surprised if there have been more winners of the Celtic League in it's history.

You talk about fear, but do Leicester fans really fear relegation? No more than Manchester Utd do in soccer imo.

TrailApe wrote:My HC team for this year is Connaught – haway the lads!

Better learn to spell Connacht right, then. Or they'll gut ya, bunch of savages out that way

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I cant see Leicester Tigers ever being relegated, they may not win every year but they are very very unlikely to be relegated too. In fact I think it is safe to say that the top six clubs are very unlikely to be relegated unless they have a massive turn in financial security.

Saints.....

As is said a massive turn in financial security makes a big difference. Saints sold a lot of property and reinvested it in the club, thus giving them a huge cash influx after they went down.

Reading one of Portnoy's articles is like rubber necking at an accident, you know you shouldn't look but...

Carpe Diem wrote:Reading one of Portnoy's articles is like rubber necking at an accident, you know you shouldn't look but...

Notch wrote:

Notch wrote:

greybeard wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Where's your bet - E/F to progress further in the RWC or the Robocops?

And this proves the Jeff means more to English fans how? This proves relegation is a great thing in what way?

I think that one or two of England, France and Ireland will reach the semi-finals.

I don't rate our chances of achieving that as any less than the previous two.

To be fair, we do have a harder run to the semis because we'll have to beat a 3N team. It's possible England or France could reach the semis without beating one of the top three.

As for the Six Nations, I continue to see the next four years as being contested between these three nations.

Also, you talk about promotion- but no promoted side will ever win the Premiership. Financial imbalances make it a closed shop, I wouldn't be surprised if there have been more winners of the Celtic League in it's history.

You talk about fear, but do Leicester fans really fear relegation? No more than Manchester Utd do in soccer imo.

What do you mean by "promoted"? do you mean in the season they were promoted, within a certain time period or ever? Saints and Quins have both been reasonably recently promoted. Neither won it yet but both have good sides. Saints even won the CC in their first season up, QF in the HEC in their second season and final in their third.

Regarding the original point (other than the attempted WUM) it's a ridiculous thing to try and quantify. Who's to say what another fan prefers?

Carpe Diem wrote:Reading one of Portnoy's articles is like rubber necking at an accident, you know you shouldn't look but...

Sort of sums me up.

You won't get me posting on x player is better than b etc.

I'm a bit of a pot-holer.

e.g. https://www.606v2.com/t9287-greatest-combos-front-rows

Wouldn't want you any other way Portnoy. It takes all sorts and you certainly get a good debate going!

Better learn to spell Connacht right, then. Or they'll gut ya, bunch of savages out that way

Mucho apologies.....

Connacht it is.


mind you, if I lose a few pounds of guts here and there ,that would be no great loss!

It must be hard for the English to be so passionate about their national league competition and see it being won by a South African team.

Still though, English teams did win the Amiln and LV cups. That’s something!

Mickado wrote:It must be hard for the English to be so passionate about their national league competition and see it being won by a South African team.

Still though, English teams did win the Amiln and LV cups. That’s something!

Are you suggesting that english teams are nothing more than average teams that win average competitions

Portnoy wrote:Being based on a league system (and I can't speak for the French), Jeff supporters have always to live with both aspiration and desperation.

No trap-door for Rabid supporters in the event of ultimate failure is very humane and gives them perpetual hope - and provides a perpetual National development process plus pretty much a guarantee of elite European qualification.

So English (and French?) club players have to break their backs week in week out whilst Celtic players sit in their Noel Coward smoking jackets sitting stuff out.

But the desire of all fans of all nations to succeed is equal. But I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Rabid.

(this post may be a bit provocative)

caoimhincentre wrote:

Mickado wrote:It must be hard for the English to be so passionate about their national league competition and see it being won by a South African team.

Still though, English teams did win the Amiln and LV cups. That’s something!

Are you suggesting that english teams are nothing more than average teams that win average competitions

That’s one way to put it.

Mickado wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

Mickado wrote:It must be hard for the English to be so passionate about their national league competition and see it being won by a South African team.

Still though, English teams did win the Amiln and LV cups. That’s something!

Are you suggesting that english teams are nothing more than average teams that win average competitions

That’s one way to put it.

would that in turn mean that the jeff is a load of poo and Portnoy is wrong and just trying to wind people up

Portnoy is clearly trying to wind people up, he says as much in his own post. I can't understand why he would try to wind people up on this particular matter though. Given the current champions of the premiership are a South African team.

So Foden played 15 out of 22 league games which is 68% of total league games. According to the Munster website,Ronan O'Gara played 13 league games with 2 subs appearances. Which is a total of 15 out of 22. Portnoy, is there really much of a difference between the number of league games international players play?