The Jeff means more to the English than the Rabid means to the Celts

First topic message reminder :

Being based on a league system (and I can't speak for the French), Jeff supporters have always to live with both aspiration and desperation.

No trap-door for Rabid supporters in the event of ultimate failure is very humane and gives them perpetual hope - and provides a perpetual National development process plus pretty much a guarantee of elite European qualification.

So English (and French?) club players have to break their backs week in week out whilst Celtic players sit in their Noel Coward smoking jackets sitting stuff out.

But the desire of all fans of all nations to succeed is equal. But I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Rabid.

(this post may be a bit provocative)

Well the Cardiff lads were over the moon when they conquered 'Europe' - or are you saying the English clubs should aspire higher?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:

Notch wrote:

greybeard wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Where's your bet - E/F to progress further in the RWC or the Robocops?

And this proves the Jeff means more to English fans how? This proves relegation is a great thing in what way?

I think that one or two of England, France and Ireland will reach the semi-finals.

I don't rate our chances of achieving that as any less than the previous two.

To be fair, we do have a harder run to the semis because we'll have to beat a 3N team. It's possible England or France could reach the semis without beating one of the top three.

As for the Six Nations, I continue to see the next four years as being contested between these three nations.

Also, you talk about promotion- but no promoted side will ever win the Premiership. Financial imbalances make it a closed shop, I wouldn't be surprised if there have been more winners of the Celtic League in it's history.

You talk about fear, but do Leicester fans really fear relegation? No more than Manchester Utd do in soccer imo.

What do you mean by "promoted"? do you mean in the season they were promoted, within a certain time period or ever? Saints and Quins have both been reasonably recently promoted. Neither won it yet but both have good sides. Saints even won the CC in their first season up, QF in the HEC in their second season and final in their third.

Regarding the original point (other than the attempted WUM) it's a ridiculous thing to try and quantify. Who's to say what another fan prefers?

Big clubs returning to their rightful place. I meann second tier English yo-yo clubs. Worcester, Leeds, Bristol etc.

TrailApe wrote:Well the Cardiff lads were over the moon when they conquered 'Europe' - or are you saying the English clubs should aspire higher?

That was the first time a Welsh team won a European competition. But hey, if English teams want to take thier inspriation from the 6th best team in the Celtic League then by all means go ahead. The English premiership should look to produce players who don't fall apart like a microwaved turd when put under pressure.

Tigers - toothless in Europe this year
NH - showponys, exposed in the HC final
Saracens - couldn't make it off the bottom of their HC group but still managed to win the league
England - Crushed under the weight of their own hype and "GS Champions 2011" t-shirts

Mickado wrote:

TrailApe wrote:Well the Cardiff lads were over the moon when they conquered 'Europe' - or are you saying the English clubs should aspire higher?

That was the first time a Welsh team won a European competition. But hey, if English teams want to take thier inspriation from the 6th best team in the Celtic League then by all means go ahead. The English premiership should look to produce players who don't fall apart like a microwaved turd when put under pressure.

Tigers - toothless in Europe this year
NH - showponys, exposed in the HC final
Saracens - couldn't make it off the bottom of their HC group but still managed to win the league
England - Crushed under the weight of their own hype and "GS Champions 2011" t-shirts

Of course arrogance is an English trait Mick.

I'd back England on the way up over Ireland on the best a plateau.

Is anyone else concerned that the Rabo is a bigger contributor to global climate change than the Jeff and also much more vulnerable from an economic perspective to the impending collapse of the Eurozone? ........

On what grounds. where is your proof

Portnoy wrote:
I'd back England on the way up over Ireland on the best a plateau.

So would I so it's a good job that England have such a long upward journey ahead before they reach Ireland's plateau.....

Who said arrogance was only an English trait? Oh yeah, that was you!

You can back whatever you want pal, the results don’t back anything up and until they do I’ll present the facts on here.

HC quarter final – 75 minutes gone, the tiggers have 3 points on the board and they came from a bizarre offside call (the call was fine but it was a bizarre penalty). It’s got to be galling that a once great European force just can’t mix it with the big boys. It must be so galling that it would force fans of said “force” into a continuous spiraling diatribe against the victors.

To go back to your original point though, I was disappointed when my team didn’t win the league, but with a HC medal in our proverbial arsepocket the blow was softened. Perhaps English teams care more about their league because it’s the only thing they’re almost guaranteed to win (this year being the obvious exception)…

Mickado wrote:

TrailApe wrote:Well the Cardiff lads were over the moon when they conquered 'Europe' - or are you saying the English clubs should aspire higher?

That was the first time a Welsh team won a European competition. But hey, if English teams want to take thier inspriation from the 6th best team in the Celtic League then by all means go ahead. The English premiership should look to produce players who don't fall apart like a microwaved turd when put under pressure.

Tigers - toothless in Europe this year
NH - showponys, exposed in the HC final
Saracens - couldn't make it off the bottom of their HC group but still managed to win the league
England - Crushed under the weight of their own hype and "GS Champions 2011" t-shirts

Mickado Saracens had one of the toughest HC groups ever. We hadn't been in the HC for a few seasons. It was a harsh wake up call. I would happily bet we will reach the semis at least in the HC in the upcoming season. Actually I would happily bet there will be 3 or more English sides in the quarter finals and that an English side will win the HC.

Also BOD only had 7 ML games meaning he was fresh for the HC. Let's be honest the ML sides do use the ML as a warm up for the HC.To the ML sides the HC is the priority. To the AP sides the HC and AP are both very important.

beshocked wrote:

Mickado wrote:

TrailApe wrote:Well the Cardiff lads were over the moon when they conquered 'Europe' - or are you saying the English clubs should aspire higher?

That was the first time a Welsh team won a European competition. But hey, if English teams want to take thier inspriation from the 6th best team in the Celtic League then by all means go ahead. The English premiership should look to produce players who don't fall apart like a microwaved turd when put under pressure.

Tigers - toothless in Europe this year
NH - showponys, exposed in the HC final
Saracens - couldn't make it off the bottom of their HC group but still managed to win the league
England - Crushed under the weight of their own hype and "GS Champions 2011" t-shirts

Mickado Saracens had one of the toughest HC groups ever. We hadn't been in the HC for a few seasons. It was a harsh wake up call. I would happily bet we will reach the semis at least in the HC in the upcoming season. Actually I would happily bet there will be 3 or more English sides in the quarter finals and that an English side will win the HC.

Also BOD only had 7 ML games meaning he was fresh for the HC. Let's be honest the ML sides do use the ML as a warm up for the HC.To the ML sides the HC is the priority. To the AP sides the HC and AP are both very important.

Ignoring the leg injury that meant he almost didn't start?!

I'll bet a pint on that with you - redeemable either at SP or VR this coming season?

beshocked wrote:

Mickado wrote:

TrailApe wrote:Well the Cardiff lads were over the moon when they conquered 'Europe' - or are you saying the English clubs should aspire higher?

That was the first time a Welsh team won a European competition. But hey, if English teams want to take thier inspriation from the 6th best team in the Celtic League then by all means go ahead. The English premiership should look to produce players who don't fall apart like a microwaved turd when put under pressure.

Tigers - toothless in Europe this year
NH - showponys, exposed in the HC final
Saracens - couldn't make it off the bottom of their HC group but still managed to win the league
England - Crushed under the weight of their own hype and "GS Champions 2011" t-shirts

Mickado Saracens had one of the toughest HC groups ever. We hadn't been in the HC for a few seasons. It was a harsh wake up call. I would happily bet we will reach the semis at least in the HC in the upcoming season. Actually I would happily bet there will be 3 or more English sides in the quarter finals and that an English side will win the HC.

Also BOD only had 7 ML games meaning he was fresh for the HC. Let's be honest the ML sides do use the ML as a warm up for the HC.To the ML sides the HC is the priority. To the AP sides the HC and AP are both very important.

This was pointed out already but the fact that BOD didn't play alot of games is down to the national team not letting. its not down to the teams in the league

Portnoy wrote:Being based on a league system, Jeff supporters always have to live with both aspiration and desperation.

True - aspiring to win the league and H Cup and desperate to qualify for the H Cup by getting into the top 50% of their league and play in time-wasting comps like Anglo-Welsh cup competitions.

No trap-door for Pro12 supporters in the event of ultimate failure is very humane and gives them perpetual hope - and provides a perpetual National development process plus pretty much a guarantee of elite European qualification.

Are you sure that Connacht, Glasgow or Dragons supporters would agree with you? You forget the original founding purpose of the European Cup and Challenge Cup.

So English (and French?) club players have to break their backs week in week out whilst Celtic players sit in their Noel Coward smoking jackets sitting stuff out.

Yep - great isn't it? It would be more accurate though to say that Argentine, South African, Irish, Georgian, NZ, Australian, Samoan, Fijian, Tongan and Canadian club players are the ones breaking their backs week in, week out for the English and French clubs whilst Celtic provincial players etc, etc. Mujati, Tongah'uia, Wilson, Brits, McAllister, Evans, Roncero, de Niekerk, are some of the names that come to mind.

But the desire of all fans of all nations to succeed is equal. But I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Pro 12.

International competitions like H Cup and 6 Nations? Nope.
RWC - yep historically this is true. In the future? Who knows.

I know all too well how hard the group was. 3 English sides in the quarterfinals is a distinct possibility, when any country has 7 teams in the competition it’s always a possibility, France had 4 teams in the QF this year and still none of them made the final! As for the winner, it’s a bit early to be making bold predictions but by all means lay down your petard and prepare to be hoisted by it!

As for BOD and his 7 ML starts – we finished 2nd in the league, we did that with a player like BOD sitting out half of the league. Surely that just a reflection on our strength in depth? Isn’t that what all the Sky Commentators attributed our HC victory to? We’re not a one man show, there’s always someone there to step up to the mark in virtually every position.

Mickado I have to give credit to Leinster for winning the HC. No one can doubt you beat the best sides to do it.
The top 3 English sides in my opinion - Leicester,Saracens and Saints.
3 of the best French teams - Racing Metro,Toulouse and Clermont.

That's an impressive list.

I am going to back my prediction of an English winner. It's been too long since it happened. Also the final will be at Twickers.

I think Quins and Gloucester could well give Toulouse more of a tough time than they are expecting. Quins have beaten Toulouse before and are Amlin champions. Gloucester are the Anglo Welsh champs, were unbeaten at home in the AP and came 3rd in the league.

Bath will have a stronger squad with the new signings of Attwood,Hipkiss,Donald etc. London Irish have one of the weaker groups.

Leicester have the HC pedigree and are a tough side.

Saracens have a winnable pool and two sides they beat in their last respective HC encounters - Biarritz's biggest ever defeat in the HC and the other a 2008 quarter final win vs the O's.

Saints have done well in Europe recently so expect them to continue that.

You could call it a reflection of your strength in depth or a lack of intensity/quality in the ML. Possibly both. Due to the internationals you will have much weakened sides, this will effect the quality of the league in regards to intensity.

Beshocked

i think you are getting carried away predicting english dominance next year in the HC.

Sarries were shown wanting in a big way. and to say it came as a shock and they will be better prepared next year is rubbish.


Leicster scrapped out of there group and NH credit where credit is due did well to get to the final. other than that did any other english side do well in the HC last year

roddersm wrote:Is anyone else concerned that the Rabo is a bigger contributor to global climate change than the Jeff and also much more vulnerable from an economic perspective to the impending collapse of the Eurozone? ........

No. It's only me.

Yep, each of the English teams could qualify. 3 of the 4 Irish could just as easily do the same, but we’re really trying to predict the future here!

As for BOD, let’s take the league out of the question here. Having seen the HC final, who played better BOD/Darcy or Downey/Clarke. I think Downey/Clarke were far better. And in the HC final in 09 I think Erinle and Hipkiss were better. BOD was burned for pace more than once by Foden.

My point is that, yes these are players who are inspirational on their day, BOD is the best player I’ve ever seen live, bar none. But he’s not the lord god almighty and we can win a HC if he’s on form or not. His knee was in bits that week and he very nearly didn’t play. Fergus McFadden would have done better than him in that situation. We were lucky that we don’t have to rely on BOD, but we don’t. so the point about how many games he played is faulty from the off.

Portnoy wrote:

roddersm wrote:Is anyone else concerned that the Rabo is a bigger contributor to global climate change than the Jeff and also much more vulnerable from an economic perspective to the impending collapse of the Eurozone? ........

No. It's only me.

Sorry Portnoy couldn't resist. I realise man made climate change and the collapse of the Eurozone are not matters to take lightly.....

Mickado BOD is a talisman player even when not on form. I have seen matches when he does virtually nothing for most of the game then comes up with something special out of the blue like a crunching tackle or finishing off a move with a try for the decisive blow.

He's a bit like Jonny Wilkinson in my opinion though you are welcome to disagree.

caohimcentre we'll see won't we. I have made the bold prediction and I will stick by it. Biarritz,Ospreys and Treviso are nowhere near as tough as Racing Metro,Clermont and Leinster. I can see us getting a home quarter.

Feel free to disagree but I believe Saints will give Munster a lot to worry about. Leicester to outperform Ulster too. Leinster will likely stroll their group though. Connacht to struggle.

The Heineken Cup is pointless because an English team didn't win it. As Mickado said the Jeff Champions are a South African Franchise; so is there currently a point to English club rugby?

beshocked wrote:Connacht to struggle.

True, can't see them getting past the semi-final stage.

nottins jones do you know anything about Saracens? No I didn't think so.

It's 50% English, 50% South African owned.

beshocked wrote:nottins jones do you know anything about Saracens? No I didn't think so.

It's 50% English, 50% South African owned.

Yes. I know that:

A.) They're currently champions of 2nd rate competition
B.) They're a SA franchise on English soil.

beshocked wrote:Mickado BOD is a talisman player even when not on form. I have seen matches when he does virtually nothing for most of the game then comes up with something special out of the blue like a crunching tackle or finishing off a move with a try for the decisive blow.

He's a bit like Jonny Wilkinson in my opinion though you are welcome to disagree.

caohimcentre we'll see won't we. I have made the bold prediction and I will stick by it. Biarritz,Ospreys and Treviso are nowhere near as tough as Racing Metro,Clermont and Leinster. I can see us getting a home quarter.

Feel free to disagree but I believe Saints will give Munster a lot to worry about. Leicester to outperform Ulster too. Leinster will likely stroll their group though. Connacht to struggle.

The sun basically shines out of his bum if you ask me. But as good a player as he is, and when on form he's remarkably good, he's not bigger than the team. He was the water boy against Saracens in Wembley and we did ok. He was out against Clermont away and we put in arguably our best performance of the group stages.

nottins_jones wrote:

beshocked wrote:nottins jones do you know anything about Saracens? No I didn't think so.

It's 50% English, 50% South African owned.

Yes. I know that:

A.) They're currently champions of 2nd rate competition
B.) They're a SA franchise on English soil.

If the AP is 2nd rate then what is the ML 4th or 5th rate?

No they aren't. Get into your thick skull. They are an English club who happen to have some South African backers.

What's your club nottin's Welsh clone?

You're an angry guy Beshocked. I think you should calm down... And to think was rooting for your team in the final.

I believe all to be 2nd rate to the Heineken Cup. I like it's tournament structure and how the elite from across Europe battle for the ultimate prize. Top 14 arguable, due to the quality of players across the majority of their teams - all down to the money though.

My club is Wakefield, they disbanded and it broke my heart but I still follow them.

beshocked wrote:If the AP is 2nd rate then what is the ML 4th or 5th rate?

No it's 2nd rate as well...

You tel him rodders. Perhaps the mods would like to moderate angry Beshocked for his attack on the ML.

Nobody needs to be moderated on here, lets cut that crep out before it even starts. It's just a discussion and we all seem to disagree, happy days.

I wouldn't call any of the AP,ML,Top 14 competitions 2nd rate even the ML. The ML serves an important purpose - it essential for developing Irish,Italians,Welsh and Scottish players for the international and HC games.

It isn't as intense as the AP and Top 14 but it serves a purpose. It's role should be accepted for what it is. The ML is all about developing players.

I wouldn't call the likes of Connacht,Scarlets,Dragons,Edinburgh the elite of Europe but they try their best.

Yes Nottins Jones I am an angry guy. I am passionate about my side and don't take undeserved criticism well. Thank you for rooting for my team.

The irony of the whole thing is funny. AP and T14 teams care more about their league than the HC, which is fair enough.
BUT, then they bleat about the ML teams using the league as a testing ground for the HC, and how unfair that is.

You’d think they’d just abandon the HC altogether and leave the Celtic nations to it, you know, since the HC is just a secondary prize…

They'd be back in an instant, the English clubs. They need the cash nowadays.

Beshocked, that's ok. I didn't think I criticised your team... . I thought it was good for the AP that somebody other than Leicester won it.

Mickado the HC isn't a secondary prize. It is very important but it means more to the ML sides than the AP and T14 sides.

If you could win one of the trophies most would pick the HC though.

My take on it is that the AP and T14 care more about winning the matches in their respective leagues than development for their international sides. The ML sides care more about developing and blooding players for internationals and the HC.

Most ML sides will be depleted more than the AP and Top 14 counterparts during international periods. This brings down the intensity and quality.

The bread and butter is the HC for the ML sides. Would you disagree?

Some Top14 sides do probably prefer to win the Top14 to the HC cup.

beshocked wrote:It isn't as intense as the AP and Top 14 but it serves a purpose. It's role should be accepted for what it is. The ML is all about developing players.

I wouldn't call the likes of Connacht,Scarlets,Dragons,Edinburgh the elite of Europe but they try their best.

I disagree Beshocked. I think the Rabo is at least as intense as the AP and the final this year was as high of quality as anything in the HEC.

The quality does dip at times around the Internationals due to players being rested but in the business end of the season the league is as strong as any in Europe.

Munster and Leinster are certainly amongst Europes elite and Ospreys, Cardiff, Ulster, scarlets and Dragons and most of the other teams would all be very competitive in the AP.

I watched a lot of the Magners when i binned Sky towards the end of the season and had to get my rugby fix elsewhere.

I didn't notice any diffrence in intensity in either league. I believe that rugby players want to play and win no matter what competition they are in.

I don't get all the overiding loyalty to a competition, belittling another competition really serves no purpose. "My league is better than your league" just ends up sounding a bit immature.

I just like watching rugby no matter what the competition.

It isn't as intense at the AP. The amount of players lost during the international period is a lot less in the AP than the Rabo. Essentially the AP has to give up players just for England spread over 12 clubs in comparison to the Rabo's 4 countries over 12 clubs.

30 players compared to 120 players. When you lose 120 players from your league it is going to affect the quality. Obviously a small amount might come on from the AP and T14 but not many. Or 22 vs 88 alternatively.

Supporters want to see the best players week in week out. It's almost impossible in the Rabo.

Why does that make it less intense beshocked

You could easily say that it is more intense as the players are fresher and can therefore run faster, hit harder, make less errors etc.

In your opinion Beshocked, in your opinion.

red stag it's more like the Anglo Welsh. No one plays their best team in that either. That's simply for development and the competition is not worth much.

There isn't the same buzz if instead of playing against a Leinster side full of the likes of BOD,Sexton,O Brien,Heaslip you come up against a bunch of academy players.

You care more about a match when both sides look like they are taking it seriously. Playing 2nd strings shows you don't care.

From the fans perspective you want to see the best. The AP sides more often than not put out full strength sides as there is more of a desire to win.

As a paying supporter I want to see the best players giving their all.

Maybe it's because i grew up watching Exeter before they were anywhere near the premiership but i don't need big names to enjoy a game of rugby. I just need both teams to want to win.

I think some people are a little spoiled and get starry eyed about the 'names' who are playing.

i love going to the ole RDS to see what good young players are coming through. Its rare that you would see an entire team of academy players. Usually there is a good mix

Mickado wrote:The irony of the whole thing is funny. AP and T14 teams care more about their league than the HC, which is fair enough.
BUT, then they bleat about the ML teams using the league as a testing ground for the HC, and how unfair that is.

You’d think they’d just abandon the HC altogether and leave the Celtic nations to it, you know, since the HC is just a secondary prize…

The essential of Jeff (and presumably T14) teams is to 1. Stay alive and 2. To gain an HEC spot.

Seeing as how 1. is not a factor in the Rabid and that 2. is a effectively a certainty for all but Connacht and Scarlets/Dragons. So winning (or at least achieving) in their league is not a great priority.

I'm not bleating because of the way the leagues are populated although they could be HEC qualified more on merit than divvied by nation (and yes I know that dems is de rules).

"You’d think they’d just abandon the HC altogether and leave the Celtic nations to it, you know, since the HC is just a secondary prize…"

is exactly the inverse of the truth as I perceive it. It makes it an exceptional prize for Jeff/t14 clubs after overcoming local difficulties.

Carpe Diem wrote:Maybe it's because i grew up watching Exeter before they were anywhere near the premiership but i don't need big names to enjoy a game of rugby. I just need both teams to want to win.

I think some people are a little spoiled and get starry eyed about the 'names' who are playing.

+1

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Maybe it's because i grew up watching Exeter before they were anywhere near the premiership but i don't need big names to enjoy a game of rugby. I just need both teams to want to win.

I think some people are a little spoiled and get starry eyed about the 'names' who are playing.

+1

+1

red_stag wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Maybe it's because i grew up watching Exeter before they were anywhere near the premiership but i don't need big names to enjoy a game of rugby. I just need both teams to want to win.

I think some people are a little spoiled and get starry eyed about the 'names' who are playing.

+1

+1

+1 also. When I went to watch Dragons this season (gtting robbed) by Leinster, I wasn't bothered that O'Driscoll etc were not playing. It was interesting to see who they had coming through etc. Don't mean to single out Leinster here, as it was the same against Edinburgh (as another example, though we didn't get mugged by them).

Portnoys, when was the last time the tiggers had to worry about relegation?

Never Mick,

Which may lead to the supplementary question why so why then should I care?

And I'll leave it to you to infer an answer.

nottins_jones wrote:

My club is Wakefield, they disbanded and it broke my heart but I still follow them.

Hmm, I wonder who you could be.....

How do you still follow them if they've disbanded ?

Maybe English teams should play more squad players. Northampton might have won the Heineken Cup if they weren't totally reliant on their first 15. Leinster had a much more experienced bench. Maybe their squad rotation works? ERC player of the year Sean O'Brien was once a 'squad player' not so long ago. But he got game time and quickly became a top player. Maybe if he played for Leicester he'd still be sitting on the bench because the Tigers are scared of relegation.

The Pro12 teams have an easy league. The Pro12 teams players get more rest. The poor English are terrified of relegation. We all know that these are just excuses because the English don't dominate European rugby any more. I never heard Martin Johnson whinging and pointing fingers at what other leagues were doing when he was winning Heineken Cups, Grand Slams and a World Cup.

red_stag wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Maybe it's because i grew up watching Exeter before they were anywhere near the premiership but i don't need big names to enjoy a game of rugby. I just need both teams to want to win.

I think some people are a little spoiled and get starry eyed about the 'names' who are playing.

+1

+1

Me too, me too,

This weakened teams in the League thing is a misconception. What happens is the national side takes priority and that means players are rested for the international game. That doesn't mean we don't want to win every game. We really, really do.