The Jeff means more to the English than the Rabid means to the Celts

First topic message reminder :

Being based on a league system (and I can't speak for the French), Jeff supporters have always to live with both aspiration and desperation.

No trap-door for Rabid supporters in the event of ultimate failure is very humane and gives them perpetual hope - and provides a perpetual National development process plus pretty much a guarantee of elite European qualification.

So English (and French?) club players have to break their backs week in week out whilst Celtic players sit in their Noel Coward smoking jackets sitting stuff out.

But the desire of all fans of all nations to succeed is equal. But I suggest that ultimately, at the pointy end of international competitions, Jeff/T14 will go further than the Rabid.

(this post may be a bit provocative)

greybeard wrote:maesteg, he has a different opinion, that's all. No need to get personal

No he has no idea of the difference in wealth in Great Britain and Ireland. And he is trying to make a point that people in the poorer parts of Britain care less about sport compared to those who can afford to buy season tickets or regularly attend.

In Wales and much of Ireland people can not afford the expense of Rugby Tickets, there is little work and the pay is poor. Any one who lives and has travelled around in Britain and ireland can see the difference. Stadium attendances in Rugby reflect the economic wealth.

I think BeShocked is being distasteful and should be more considerate in his comments in public.

An apology would have gone a lot further than an explanation.

Rugby used to be a sport where if you were callous in your comments and offended a fellow fan, you would apologise. I see we have lost that.

I implore you to think a bit harder before you write.

Maesteg,

Think your over reacting Chillax life's too short.

Why would Connacht out out their third string? If anything, they would be one of the teams that put out their strongest side as often as they can. Like all ML teams...

The non-availability of players is imposed from above.

Given every Leinster-Munster match in recent times has sold out to the best of my knowedge, including the one in Croke Park (82000) you are indeed clutching at straws. In fact, those two teams sold out the Aviva Stadium last season for a regular season league game.

The fact is, they played in the biggest stadium in Munster. Munster earned the right to have that game at home.

Besides, you mention rotating the Final- that works for England because it's one country. I doubt Welsh or Scottish fans would want to go to an all-Irish final in their capital or the Irish to a Final not featuring an Irish side.

Notch wrote:Why would Connacht out out their third string? If anything, they would be one of the teams that put out their strongest side as often as they can. Like all ML teams...

Do Connacht even have a 3rd string?

They're held together by string

The overall attendance my point towards the interest in the rugby sides themselves (although there are other factors). However this was about the respective interests in the leagues. There fore the difference in average attendances during the HEC pool stages and the basic league are what's important.

If town has 5000 average attendance at home league games and 5000 average attendance at Eureopean cup level then they're of equal relative interest. If a city has 10000 at home legaue games and 20000 at home HEC games it suggests they're more relative interested in the HEC event though they get more attendance overall at the league games.

My point about the Saracens attendance was that it's quite poor for the league games yet I'm sure you and other Saracens supports care a great deal about winning the Jeff. Absolute attendance means very little when comparing interest in a competition. Only interest in the team.

I think in Ulster there are a hardcore of around 6000 fans and maybe as many as 50000+ other fans who maybe go to about 1 or 2 games a season and watch on TV, or go the odd time with a friend or whatever. Other fans still who don't go to games but buy merchandise etc.

I see a lot of people sporting Ulster gear around Belfast, if they were all regulars at Ravenhill we'd sell out every week. If the viewing figures for Ulster Rugby Live on BBCNI translated into attendance you'd hardly be able to get a ticket at all!

As it is we generally sell out all our Heineken Cup matches with lots of disappointed punters, with the exception of maybe some of the Italian or Scottish sides if we draw them, and I think get around 9000 a week in the Magners. Which is a definite increase for us but I'd like to see the actual stats if anyone can enlighten me?

I expect attendances to go up for Ulster next season given the new signings and the progress we made last year.

My personal opinion of the Rabo is that it is more for the development of the international sides of the Rabo sides and to get players in shape for the HC. I am not knocking the importance of the Rabo as it involves 4 nations. The overall quality of the Rabo won't be as high through the year as you take away at least 88 of the best players in the internationals compared to 22 from England and 22 from France.

Notch I am basing what information there is on game attendances. As you say maybe the TV viewing figures show there is actually a vast following in regards to Rabo games. Maybe Aironi have 30,000 ardent TV fans.

Also there is a huge difference between the likes of Munster,Leinster etc who are immensely well supported compared to Aironi or Edinburgh etc.

I think the importance of the Rabo will grow though as the Italian teams establish themselves. Some of the top Italian talent don't play in the Rabo.

Why does a side deserve home advantage in a final?

Maestegmafia I apologise if I have offended. Attendances are low - that's the fact. For whatever reason.

I think the Rabo has a bright future but it is in it's infancy.

Hammerofthunor I understand your POV but if a team has low attendances in both it shows the people in that area have little interest in rugby in general.

beshocked wrote:Also there is a huge difference between the likes of Munster,Leinster etc who are immensely well supported compared to Aironi or Edinburgh etc.

But the problem is it's not really possible to extract any real information from that fact. Leinster, Aironi and Edinburgh are three teams from three different countries. Any statement about Aironi could be used to make a point about Italian rugby, yes, but not about the "Pro12" in any real sense.

But a part of that is also because the Pro12 is really a marriage of convenience for four unions with not enough pro teams to strike out on their own.

One thing about the Pro12 is that the national derby's generate far more interest than than the matches between teams from different nations. I'm not sure why this is. Because playing foreign teams is one of the big selling points of the Heineken Cup.

I'd say the Irish teams definately prioritize the Heineken Cup. Why wouldn't they. It's the pinnacle of European rugby. There's more prestige, and probably even more importantly, there's more money in the Heineken Cup. And I think it has captured the imagination of the Irish public in a way that the Magners/Pro12 never has.

I'd say the financial rewards for winning the Jeff are bigger than for the Pro12. But even so, the Irish attendances don't compare badly to the English ones. Here's the attendances for Leinster, Munster and Ulster over the last 10 years.
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img833/8461/leagueattendances.jpg

Ulster has remained steady, while Leinster and Munsters support has exploded. Connacht attendances are really really poor but rugby has just never been big there. It doesn't seem likely that 17,000 people are turning up at the RDS every week to watch a league they don't care about.

Feckless Rogue wrote:One thing about the Pro12 is that the national derby's generate far more interest than than the matches between teams from different nations. I'm not sure why this is.

From an Irish perspective the older generation grew up with "Interpros", the interprovincial series that saw us play the other three provinces every year.

Another reason is travel is too expensive to frequently head off to Wales, Italy or Scotland. The majority of P12 matches involving teams from different unions have few away fans. But for derbies it's easier to travel, which generates a better atmosphere.

beshocked wrote:
Notch I am basing what information there is on game attendances. As you say maybe the TV viewing figures show there is actually a vast following in regards to Rabo games. Maybe Aironi have 30,000 ardent TV fans.

Nope, in fact the TV station with the rights to Italian games went bust.

beshocked wrote:Why does a side deserve home advantage in a final?

As a reward for finishing highest in the table in the regular season? Coming 1st actually gives you an advantage over 2nd which it doesn't in England because the Final is on neutral ground.

One thing about the Pro12 is that the national derby's generate far more interest than than the matches between teams from different nations. I'm not sure why this is.

One factor is that the away fans can eaily get to the game.

One thing about the Pro12 is that the national derby's generate far more interest than than the matches between teams from different nations. I'm not sure why this is.

Which says absolutely nothing about the relative interest in the league. this article wasn't about the relative interests in rugby in the various countries. It was the priorities put on the various competitions by the fans/teams. The fact the Scottish aren't as interested in rugby as the Welsh doesn't mean anything about the relative interests in the different competitions. It's whether the Scottish rugby fans prefer the HEC or the ML.

Regarding absolute attendances there are about 50M people in England and 3M in Wales. There are 12 top teams in England and 4 top teams in Wales. So that's a 4:1 advantage to England yet the attendances are not 4 times as large.

I really like the way the top team gets the final in the pro 12. Makes it worth fighting for the top spot right to the end rather than just aiming for a play off spot.

Carpe Diem wrote:I really like the way the top team gets the final in the pro 12. Makes it worth fighting for the top spot right to the end rather than just aiming for a play off spot.

Well top two still get home semi in the Jeff but top is effectively worthless

HammerofThunor wrote:
Which says absolutely nothing about the relative interest in the league. this article wasn't about the relative interests in rugby in the various countries. It was the priorities put on the various competitions by the fans/teams.

You can't really put your finger on one unified attitude towards the league when it is competed in by teams from very diverse, different countries. The shape of the sporting landscape between say Ireland and Italy is huge. Scotland and Italy are dominated by the roundball code, and rugby is very much a minority pursuit. In Wales, rugby is apparently the national sport. In Ireland it's a rapidly growing sport which is gaining ground on the traditional Irish GAA sports, rugby being particularly popular in urban areas helps give it a bigger profile.

I think every nations fans have a different perspective on the game and the league.

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
Which says absolutely nothing about the relative interest in the league. this article wasn't about the relative interests in rugby in the various countries. It was the priorities put on the various competitions by the fans/teams.

You can't really put your finger on one unified attitude towards the league when it is competed in by teams from very diverse, different countries. The shape of the sporting landscape between say Ireland and Italy is huge. Scotland and Italy are dominated by the roundball code, and rugby is very much a minority pursuit. In Wales, rugby is apparently the national sport. In Ireland it's a rapidly growing sport which is gaining ground on the traditional Irish GAA sports, rugby being particularly popular in urban areas helps give it a bigger profile.

I think every nations fans have a different perspective on the game and the league.

+1

[Is that the standard method for indicating agreement?]

[quote="Mickado"]It must be hard for the English to be so passionate about their national league competition and see it being won by a South African team.

I feel I should correct this error, it was won by an the English team Saracens, thank you.

Mickado need not be corrected as the Dubliner was maximus correctus...

The Pro12 is doing fairly well for attendances as it is a very young league. As a Leinster fan, I was gutted to lose the ML final. There was a packed stadium in TP for that game, with plenty of banter back and forth. As a fan of the losing side, I would not say I took it any less likely than the Tigers coming away from the Aviva final.

I'd also say that I would pay as much attention to Leinster playing away to Aironi as a top flight english side would when playing away to a bottom of the table team in the Aviva.

Finally I'd add that almost all Leinster games were on the box (not away to Aironi, and I think there may have been 1 other game..maybe) so those not going to the game can still catch it live. The Aviva is at the whim of Sky, and to an extent ESPN, only showing a limited number of games a weekend meaning you don't have the safety net of catching it on the box so must be at the game to see it live.

Nope the Dubliner was wrong on this one, as Saracens won the league

thebandwagonsociety

It depends if you are Irish,Welsh,Scottish or Italian.

Don't forget the ML final had extra spice as it was an Irish derby.

Ulster,Munster and Leinster are looking rosy. Connacht have a lower average attendance than some of the English championship sides. The HC will boost their coffers for a year though.

The Italian sides have poor attendances but are very much in their infancy.

The Scottish sides are in deep trouble. An injection of cash is needed very badly.

The Welsh sides are doing alright but need to hold off the growth of football.

Yes that's Saracens the SA owned Franchise right? I guess he was correct afterall. All hail the Dubh Linn'er.

beshocked wrote:Ulster,Munster and Leinster are looking rosy. Connacht have a lower average attendance than some of the English championship sides. The HC will boost their coffers for a year though.

Rumours are the HC has led to Connacht doubling their season tickets sales on last year. Impressive if true.

greybeard wrote:

beshocked wrote:Ulster,Munster and Leinster are looking rosy. Connacht have a lower average attendance than some of the English championship sides. The HC will boost their coffers for a year though.

Rumours are the HC has led to Connacht doubling their season tickets sales on last year. Impressive if true.

I imagine that's at least partly down to the improved performances as well.

They're redeveloping 2 stands in the showground and they've established an official supporters club over the summer. The season ticket is excellent value too, I can see them picking up a lot of support this year. My Fingers are crossed for them, because they've recruited pretty well but there has been a big squad turnover so it could take them a Long time to gel.

I think Connacht will have a bad year. Their best ball carrier was Cronin. He's gone to Leinster. Their best try scorer was Carr. He's gone to Leinster. Most of their points came from Keatley. He's gone to Munster.

HammerofThunor wrote:

greybeard wrote:

beshocked wrote:Ulster,Munster and Leinster are looking rosy. Connacht have a lower average attendance than some of the English championship sides. The HC will boost their coffers for a year though.

Rumours are the HC has led to Connacht doubling their season tickets sales on last year. Impressive if true.

I imagine that's at least partly down to the improved performances as well.

There are good value tickets there alright. It is almost worth while to get a pair of season tickets to cover toulouse, munster and leinster games, then gift the season pass to some relations I have from Galway for the remaining games........ A month of sensible drinking and if the fixtures come out and don't clash for Leinster home the same day as Connacht home, then it becomes a runner. I know it is a bit selfish and not a real Connacht supporter, but I'd try to rationalise the choice by saying that I would be chipping in a few quid to Connacht for the ticket and also looking to make sure that whoever gets the gift of the season tickets might get hooked on following Connacht on top of hurling at the local club. What are the masses thoughts on that?

beshocked wrote:thebandwagonsociety

It depends if you are Irish,Welsh,Scottish or Italian.

Don't forget the ML final had extra spice as it was an Irish derby.

Ulster,Munster and Leinster are looking rosy. Connacht have a lower average attendance than some of the English championship sides. The HC will boost their coffers for a year though.

The Italian sides have poor attendances but are very much in their infancy.

The Scottish sides are in deep trouble. An injection of cash is needed very badly.

The Welsh sides are doing alright but need to hold off the growth of football.

What you say is quite true but I think there are similar problems, though slightly less defined in the Aviva. And I would never say the Pro12 is perfect and without flaws. But at its core it is a league that provides a basis to sustain professionalism within each of the 4 smaller RUs in Europe. It is in its infancy, gets knocked alot, but is growing stronger and stronger, getting better TV, better sponsorship. For the leagues sake, it needs Edinburgh to get back into the top4 playoff positions and Treviso to be top 6 caliber. Soccer is a threat in Wales, playing games in caverness stadia in Scotland is depressing, having Munster/Leinster/Ospreys in the playoffs is too predictable (but the same happens in all leagues with certain clubs always in the final bracket) and Italy is in a fragile state with Aironi needed some positive results to reward its fans and gain media exposure there.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think Connacht will have a bad year. Their best ball carrier was Cronin. He's gone to Leinster. Their best try scorer was Carr. He's gone to Leinster. Most of their points came from Keatley. He's gone to Munster.

With Naoupu back they should be ok on the ball carrier front. Carr will be missed by them I'm sure, though. Keatley probably more. And with props at a premium the world over Hagan even more.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

greybeard wrote:

beshocked wrote:Ulster,Munster and Leinster are looking rosy. Connacht have a lower average attendance than some of the English championship sides. The HC will boost their coffers for a year though.

Rumours are the HC has led to Connacht doubling their season tickets sales on last year. Impressive if true.

I imagine that's at least partly down to the improved performances as well.

There are good value tickets there alright. It is almost worth while to get a pair of season tickets to cover toulouse, munster and leinster games, then gift the season pass to some relations I have from Galway for the remaining games........ A month of sensible drinking and if the fixtures come out and don't clash for Leinster home the same day as Connacht home, then it becomes a runner. I know it is a bit selfish and not a real Connacht supporter, but I'd try to rationalise the choice by saying that I would be chipping in a few quid to Connacht for the ticket and also looking to make sure that whoever gets the gift of the season tickets might get hooked on following Connacht on top of hurling at the local club. What are the masses thoughts on that?

Jeysus, bandwagon by name!

Seriously though, do it man. It's a great deal for you, Connacht get a few bob and they'll have some casual fans through the gates. All good!

Sounds good to me bandwagoner (how apt ). Only issue is if your taking a season ticket away from someone else. This seems very unlikely.

Does it not strike the author that from the level and number of responses to this article that it's clear that Pro12 does matter to its fans?

Presumably that's the best answer to the question, since it would be impossible to measure whether it matters more to one set of fans than another.

nottins_jones wrote:Yes that's Saracens the SA owned Franchise right? I guess he was correct afterall. All hail the Dubh Linn'er.

There are no Franchises in the AP.

Pot Hale wrote:Does it not strike the author that from the level and number of responses to this article that it's clear that Pro12 does matter to its fans?

Presumably that's the best answer to the question, since it would be impossible to measure whether it matters more to one set of fans than another.

No, it can't matter because we don't have relegation. Or something.

Notch wrote:No, it can't matter because we don't have relegation. Or something.

That's partially it Notch.

The real possibility of relegation means more than you clearly recall.

When big clubs have gone down they have been forced into fire sales and can only begin rebuilding once they get back. The Saints' lack of depth this season is a case in point - a factor that was flippantly dismissed by observers outside the Jeff. In fact ridiculed in some quarters.

And I'm constantly reminded how the ML is subordinate to national priorities.

I would suggest that in the Jeff people treat them almost equally.

Better to have the teams subordinate to the nation than the tail wagging the dog.

As a slight point I've looked at the relative attendances for the Home Jeff games during the regular season and the home HEC games for the pool stages. The results are for the HEC average attendance as a percentage of the average Jeff attendance. The London double header was removed but the other big games kept in as the clubs arranged them.

Leicester 89%
Wasps 55%
Irish 144%
Saints 99%
Bath 94%
Saracens 187%

Looks like different fans prefer different competitions. Saints and Bath have relatively little capacity so generally sell out all their games (nearly). Irish had greater attendance in HEC, as did Sarries (but Leinster game massively swung that one). Wasps prefer GP but only 1500 at Dragons game swings it down. Leicester slightly prefer the Jeff.

Basically it tells very little.

HammerofThunor wrote:Basically it tells very little.

Well that's unfortunate after all that effort.

You should have tweaked the data and then got James Delingpole to write about it.

greybeard wrote:Better to have the teams subordinate to the nation than the tail wagging the dog.

Depends on your priorities (what's the dog). Some would say that rugby is about the club game and the international games are the extras. That's certainly the way it used to be. International games were big deals but relatively rare. Now they're that frequent there is some infighting. Some go all out for internationals, few all out for clubs, most somewhere in between. I don't think there's anything wrong with prioritising club rugby over international rugby (as a fan). I don't even have any club allegiances but I still enjoy the Jeff more than I do International rugby. Although not by much.

Portnoy wrote:And I'm constantly reminded how the ML is subordinate to national priorities.

I would suggest that in the Jeff people treat them almost equally.

Apples and Oranges Portnoy.

The IRFU and other unions dictates that the Pro 12 teams be subordinate to needs of national team. Then you talk about the fans of in the English league.

However not one hour ago we had Notch bellyaching that Ian Humphreys may be lost to international duty and bemoaning his potential inclusion with national team.

In the rugby confessions thread Risga Rev said that he prefers going watching the Dragons play Magners League than to see Wales in international games.

And I constantly bang on about how dull I find the 6 Nations compared to the provincial rugby.

As mentioned before Thunor, because season ticket holders are invariably bundled into attendance figures regardless of actual bums on seats, the published figures are not a reliable measure.

Portnoy, actually the Welsh Regions agreed to a deal for extra funding for additional release of players. Much the same as the English clubs. Not sure how it works in Scotland but it's only really the IRFU that dictate things and as mentioned in the MBTGOG article they've won 3 leagues and 3 HEC in the last 4 years. Not sure what they're prioritising but they're bloody winning everything

red_stag wrote:

Apples and Oranges Portnoy.

Indeed Staggy, But my main point is that relegation is a real problem for Jeff clubs (unless the Championship winner is unable to satisfy stadium criteria).

I guess also that it has a significantly longer pedigree and composes clubs with usually a long and continuous history.

It does have relegation which the Pro 12 doesn't yes. And it has a longer pedigree. BUT why why why do you feel you can say what us fans think about our own teams?

Portnoy wrote:And I'm constantly reminded how the ML is subordinate to national priorities.

I would suggest that in the Jeff people treat them almost equally.

That's nothing to do with how fans perceive the league though. It's to do with the fact players can only play so many games at the top level. My loyalties are 50/50 between province and nation.

And why does the fear of relegation mean we care less about our league?

So stats have been provided that show top international players play the same amount of matches each year in their respective national competitions. The responses here show the fans care about the Pro 12. So Portnoy's do you still not think that the Celts don't care about the league?

Besides, the EPS has the same function in England doesn't it? England players being rested at times.

Just the impression that I've formed after reading thousands of threads here an on v1.

Ask As or Swanny how important the implicit threat of relegation is.