Strongest England XV from training squad.

15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tindall (c)
12. M.Banahan
11. M.Cueto
10. T.Flood
09. B.Youngs

08. N.Easter (vc)
07. C.Robshaw
06. T.Croft
05. T.Palmer
04. C.Lawes
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. M.Stevens

16. A.Corbisiero
17. S.Thompson
18. L.Deacon
19. J.Haskell
20. D.Care
21. J.Wilkinson
22. M.Tuilagi

The back three of Foden, Ashton and Cueto seem certain of their places, with no real threat. In the centres, although it was very hard to leave out Tuilagi, who I feel could make a massive impact coming off the bench, Tindall's experience and leadership and defensive quality would make him captain of the team. At inside centre Flutey has been poor in a weak Wasps side this season, whilst Banahan is a more useful option than Hape, Banahan's size and power gets him over the gainline, whilst he can also offload in the tackle. His positioning and defense has improved, whilst his handling is under-rated. The inclusion of two bruising centres would put an emphasis on Toby Flood to display his top notch distribution skills, whilst there is no doubt his kicking out of hand and goal kicking is much improved and keeps the former talisman Wilkinson on the bench. Care has been in fine form this season, but on his day Youngs is world class.

The back row is very important. With Easter, Robshaw and Croft making up the perfect balance in my opinion. Easter provides grunt around the fringes and ball carrying power. Robshaw is an impressive link-man, who carries very strongly and tackles his heart out, whilst his work at the breakdown has been highly impressive this season. Croft is world class in the lineout, improved in the tight and dangerous as a support runner. Form and ability wise Moody should be nowhere near the squad, he offers very little in attack as he's a weak ball carrier and a poor link-man, whilst in defence he gives away penalties and can get brushed off in the tackle, there is no doubt he gives 100% and has experience, but in this day and age you need a 7 who offers something in attack. Wood is like for like backup for Croft at blindside and Haskell can provide a massive impact from the bench.

At lock, Lawes should takeover from Deacon and carry on an impressive partnership he was beginning to form with the much improved Palmer. Sheridan has been injured and hasn't participated in training therefore Stevens would be my first choice loosehead, he has been very impressive there despite tighthead being his preferred position. Although second choice to Castro at Leicester, Cole has never let anyone down in an England shirt and is a tough character. Corbisiero on the bench as he can cover both sides of the scrum to a high standard and was impressive in the six nations. Hartley remains first choice hooker and a potential captain of the future, with Thompson covering on the bench.

Thoughts?

pretty much agree with you. problem areas are the centres and the back row.

englands problems in the centre are well documented and the training squad doesnt contain many options, tuilagi is the future for sure but banahan is still unproven in the centre at this level. Tindall correctly, remains in the side for this tournament. i sincerely hope flutey finds some form because i do believe he is class.

The back row, england were bested here by SA and ireland and its an area of concern, particularly the balance as you mention. i am not so sure robshaw is the answer, i have been a proponent of his abilities in the passed but now im not so sure. moody may not be the answer either but i think i would be happier with him for now. we seem to be well covered on the blindside but we are also short of a back up number 8.

the rest i am comfortable with but the squad will change and develop through; training, the warmups and the tournament its self and i hope jonno is ruthless enough to drop players who are under performing.

robshaw4england wrote:15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tindall (c)
12. M.Banahan
11. M.Cueto
10. T.Flood
09. B.Youngs

08. N.Easter (vc)
07. C.Robshaw
06. T.Croft
05. T.Palmer
04. C.Lawes
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. M.Stevens

16. A.Corbisiero
17. S.Thompson
18. L.Deacon
19. J.Haskell
20. D.Care
21. J.Wilkinson
22. M.Tuilagi

Personally I dont see Banahan as a 12, Tindall used to play 12 when Greenwood was around, so I would play Tindall at 12 and Banahan/Tuilagi at 13.

As for Robshaw at 7, I think hes best position is 6, however he isnt going to replace Croft in a hurry. Personally would have one of Moody/Wood at 7, I'd go for Wood because hes had a better season out the two as Moodys been injured.

The rest Id say I agree with.

12. M.Banahan

I always think Banahan at 12 is very risky, he has serious defensive frailties.

As a neutral looking in I still think England biggest problem is their centre pairing.

That said our isn't exactly great either

[quote="Sam"]

robshaw4england wrote:

Personally I dont see Banahan as a 12, Tindall used to play 12 when Greenwood was around, so I would play Tindall at 12 and Banahan/Tuilagi at 13.

As for Robshaw at 7, I think hes best position is 6, however he isnt going to replace Croft in a hurry. Personally would have one of Moody/Wood at 7, I'd go for Wood because hes had a better season out the two as Moodys been injured.

The rest Id say I agree with.

Greenwood was always a 12. He wore the 13 shirt because he believed 12 was unlucky after he swallowed his tongue on the Lions tour. As for Tindall being a 12, see the success of the Tindall/Noon partnership

Robshaw I think will be a fringe contender, not a first team player unless there's a significant number of injuries. Johnson has his favourites.

15.Foden
14.Ashton
13.Tuilagi
12.Tindall
11.JSD/Strettle
10.Flood
9.Youngs
8.Easter
7.Wood
6.Croft
5.Palmer
4.Lawes
3.Cole
2.Hartley
1.Stevens

16. Corbisiero
17. Thompson
18. Deacon
19. Robshaw
20. D.Care
21. J.Wilkinson
22.Banahan

Pack looks fine bar Easter (no alternative though)

Centres are a gaping hole because MJ left the two best inside centres in England at home.

beshocked,

Again as a neutral I thought Easter had a cracking 6 Nations and proeved lot of people wrong, agree though that there is little option after him.

bedfordwelsh Easter is the best no 8 in England but that isn't saying a lot.

He has a good brain and works hard but he is too slow.

Would you really pick him above Parisse,Beattie,Heaslip or Harinorduqouy? I know I wouldn't.

My selection for England from the training squad:

1.Sheridan 2.Thompson 3.Cole

16.Stevens 17.Hartley

Big powerful starting unit, strong scrum, some dynamism coming off the bench.

4.Lawes 5.Palmer

18.Deacon

Good lineout, plenty power, good handling skills and a tested combination. Deacon brings steady composure from the bench.

6.Croft 7.Wood 8.Easter

19.Haskell

Perhaps controversial not using Moody, but I think that Wood is outperforming him now and would give England more. Croft is a match winner and Easter gives grunt and close range power. Haskell covers the entire back row and brings some power and dynamism from the bench.

9.Youngs 10.Flood

20.Care 21.Wilkinson

Easy really. The top combination with experience on the bench to finish off games if needed.

12.Flutey 13.Tindall (c)

I don't rate Hape, and if MJ can get Flutey going in the warm-ups, then he's still England's most talented 12, and the most skillful playmaker. Tindall would be my captain and would have the role of shoring up the defence. Flutey and Tindall have also worked well together previously.

11.Banahan 15.Foden 14.Ashton

22.Cueto

Foden and Ashton are nailed on to start, and I'd use Banahan coming off the wing to commit defenders. I think he's better doing that than playing at centre. Cueto brings experience from the bench, and covers the entire back three if needed. Banahan would then give centre cover.

Corbisiero on the bench as he can cover both sides of the scrum to a high standard and was impressive in the six nations

Except he doesn't cover tighthead particularly well at AP level let alone at international level (having never been selected there shows the confidence the management have in him). PDJ is a far better scrummager and has the skills in the loose, Wilson is better in the loose and has played for England on both sides of the scrum with success. As for the excellent 6N he certainly started off brightly but his performance vs Ireland was dire and he was one of the worst for shirking his duties up front in order to stand out in the backs (along with Hartley). He'd be my fifth or sixth choice prop for England.

11.Banahan 15.Foden 14.Ashton

A back three with no tactical kicking ability, could be very risky. Cueto has held onto his shirt because of his leadership and his cultured left boot.

I'd go for;

Stevens, Hartley, Cole
Deacon, Palmer
Croft, Easter, Moody (c)
Youngs, Flood
Flutey, Tindall
Cueto, Foden, Ashton

Subs; Thompson, Wilson, Lawes, Waldrom, Care, Wilkinson, Manu.

Would drop Waldrom for Haskell or Wood if his performances in the friendlies aren't up to scratch. Ditto Flutey for Banahan or Hape (wish Allen or Barritt was in the squad).

funnyExiledScot wrote:My selection for England from the training squad:


12.Flutey 13.Tindall (c)

I don't rate Hape, and if MJ can get Flutey going in the warm-ups, then he's still England's most talented 12, and the most skillful playmaker. Tindall would be my captain and would have the role of shoring up the defence. Flutey and Tindall have also worked well together previously.

I really hope flutey finds some form, he played well against quins in the amlin semi but apart from that he has been very quiet this season and disrupted by injuries and was also messed around at the the start of the season by playing 10 for wasps. I would also like to see Banahan or Tuilagi play at 12 because if Tindall is fit he is a definite starter for the RWC.

MBC - I don't think Tuilagi is a 12 at all. No way.

Sam - pretty close call for me between Banahan and Cueto, I'd be pretty happy to switch them for the reason you gave.

Mr Bounce wrote:
Greenwood was always a 12. He wore the 13 shirt because he believed 12 was unlucky after he swallowed his tongue on the Lions tour.

I thought it was because Gusgott wore 12 and because carling wore 13 even though Carling was inside centre? Subsequently Greenwood ended up wearing 13 when he started out inside Gusgott?

FunnyexiledScot

Why not surely if you can move Banahan to 12 who's normal position is on the wing, it can't be too mad to put Tuilagi there? I personally would think Tuilagi would be better there than Banahan as he is more natural to the position and wouldn't need an experienced player to keep putting him in the right positions.

Unfortunately many of our problems come on form. Flutey was great but has been injured and out of form etc. On form and fit...he starts at 12. Same for the back row. Is Croft fit and on form...then he starts. Moody however has not been hitting the heights. Wood has...he starts.
Centres!!?? Oh dear...where do we start

1 Stevens
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Lawes
5 Palmer
6 Croft
7 Wood
8 Easter (With Haskell getting some gametime here)

9 Young
10 Flood
11 Ashton
12 Flutey (Fit and on form) , or Hape
13 Tindall / Tuilagi / Banahan?
14 Cueto
15 Foden

Problem is that putting Manu to 12 forces him to take on a great responsibility in the defensive line (not his strength) and also restricts his running lines. Manu isn't just a crash ball merchant he's got great feet and a touch of real pace. Check out his score vs Sarries at Welford Rd. Steps Farrell and then does him for pace, hands off Joubert and then goes through Alex Goode. That was a counter attack following a poor clearence kick from Sarries. He won't get those opportunities closer in to the action at 12. Banahan however, likes to come in on lines off of the ten when playing on the wing so it's seen as more natural to his game to run similar lines from 12.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:FunnyexiledScot

Why not surely if you can move Banahan to 12 who's normal position is on the wing, it can't be too mad to put Tuilagi there? I personally would think Tuilagi would be better there than Banahan as he is more natural to the position and wouldn't need an experienced player to keep putting him in the right positions.

The experiment of moving Banahan to 12 has been tried at Bath and with England (against the Baa Baas) with some success. The key is his offloading game and sheer size, which enables him to get through and over tacklers and offload. It's pretty much a one trick show though, but still one with some success. His weaknesses in that position are his complete lack of a kicking game, poor passing and a lack of acceleration. He has to hit the line at pace for it to work. I'm not a big fan, but I concede that it has proven successful to an extent.

Tuilagi is far more a 13/wing than a 13/12. Not a great distributor, haven't seen much in the way of an offloading game and to my knowledge he's never played 12 (a slight issue given you're considering starting him there in a World Cup). His strength is his balance, pace and power, which lends itself perfectly to the outside back channels.

I'd disagree there, with the way Flood play as long as Manu is on his shoulder he will get a lot of chances to run with that ball, in an ideal world a lot like Nonu and Carter, i'd even say that with a bit of work 12 would be easier for him to defend then 13 as his biggest weakness seems to be getting stepped when he rushes up, something less likely to happen at 12 with a good 13 supporting.

I would like him to be tried at 12 in the future then some one like Trinder, Lowe, Daily, Waldouck can compliment him nicely. Especially a strong defender like Waldouck.

Manu's passing is pretty good if i recall, if not it is something he can make better.

Yappy - I'd be fine with him being trialed at 12 at club level. I still think he's better suited to 13 though, but if you want to experiment, the World Cup isn't the place.

You mention Waldouck as a strong defender. Really? I never thought of defence being a strength for him.

My view is that Trinder will make a fine England player one day. Seems to have a knack of finding the try line from centre, something England have lacked for a while. With Tindall's injury record, I'm sure he'll feature quite a bit for Glaws next season.

haven't seen much in the way of an offloading game and to my knowledge he's never played 12

Once vs SA in a friendly. After that been a definite 13. He just works better in the wider channels where his foot work can pull the opposition off balance allowing him to either accelerate past them of flatten them as required. Just seems a waste to put him in at 12. Might as well put Tindall there again...

Manu's passing is pretty good if i recall

Little offloads to supporting wingers is about it. Not really much of a passer unless his brother is steaming up on his outisde. Threw a couple of try killers when he first came into the first team though.

That's what I thought. When you have such a balanced and dynamic runner in open space, 12 just isn't the best place.

The reason the All Blacks put Nonu there was because they had Conrad Smith, Muliaina, Sivivatu and Rocokoko out wide. They don't have the same issues England do when locating dynamic runners. Their whole backline probably runs the 100m in less than 10 seconds.

I wouldn't have him there right now but i think it is worth looking at in the future. Look at Nonu; arguably the best 12 globally for the past few years but when he first played for the AB's he was a one trick pony, he went back and made himself better though, expanded his game and now has one of the best passes i've seen, is a smart player and scores some amazing tries.

If Manu does go to the wc and i really hope he does then it must be at 13, but after this and over the next few years i would be interested to see him trialled at 12 for Leicester.

"Threw a couple of try killers when he first came into the first team though."

I remember those, most were to his bro and it was a joke going about that he just didn't want his brother to score, they were horrific though!

As to waldouck i thought he was a very compitent defender for his size.

funnyExiledScot wrote:That's what I thought. When you have such a balanced and dynamic runner in open space, 12 just isn't the best place.

The reason the All Blacks put Nonu there was because they had Conrad Smith, Muliaina, Sivivatu and Rocokoko out wide. They don't have the same issues England do when locating dynamic runners. Their whole backline probably runs the 100m in less than 10 seconds.

But there will be open space for him! Englands whole attacking threat comes through Flood/Youngs with either Ashton/Banahan or Hape running off their shoulder, if Manu is doing that at 12 then he'll cause havoc.

England only use the 13 for a miss pass from Flood which 99% is easily read and closed down, all he'd be expected to do is take contact or pass to the winger, there is so much more potential for him at 12 unless England change their game plan.

"Their whole backline probably runs the 100m in less than 10 seconds"

Blimey...they'll be representing NZ in the Olympics then...

If Manu does go to the wc and i really hope he does then it must be at 13, but after this and over the next few years i would be interested to see him trialled at 12 for Leicester

Won't happen. The 12 shirt is congested enough with Players Player Ant Allen in storming form and the defensive general and then England Saxons and potential super star Billy Twelvetrees. Outside centre, however, Tigers have Matt Smith and promising England under 20 Andy Forsyth (Tigers top try scorer in the A League by quite a way, scored more than a couple for Notts as well). Outside centre is nailed on for Manu.

England only use the 13 for a miss pass from Flood which 99% is easily read and closed down, all he'd be expected to do is take contact or pass to the winger

Is that because it's easily read or because our outside centres lack the pace/footwork/power to do anything different? The same miss pass is a favourite at Tigers because they know that Manu will break the gain line. Either on the outside and set up a flowing move or if that isn't on he'll smash it back in and get over the gain line taking the two opposition centres with him. I wouldn't compare him to Nonu either, Nonu is bigger and stronger but also slower and doesn't have Manu's step.

funnyExiledScot wrote: Their whole backline probably runs the 100m in less than 10 seconds.

Surely that can't be true can it?

Sub eleven is very sharp.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

Everyone is writing off Moody. I wouldn't be so quick to do so. Also, can people stop saying he gives away penalties? Actually he USED to give away a lot of penalties. Nowadays he gives away no more than any other back row player.

I think that a back row of Moody, Croft/Wood and Easter would work, with Haskell an impact sub.

Not sure I recall Hape making a single break from 12.

Where Tuilagi will be successful in my view is creating his own opportunities. He has quick feet and good acceleration, rather like Foden, except he's a more powerful runner. The reason Tindall doesn't find himself in space more isn't just England's game plan. It's also because he has a slow turn of pace and slow feet, so contact is inevitable for him. Tuilagi is more elusive.

Portnoy wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote: Their whole backline probably runs the 100m in less than 10 seconds.

Surely that can't be true can it?

Sub eleven is very sharp.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

I was exaggerating to make a point. No idea how quick they are.

yappysnap wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:That's what I thought. When you have such a balanced and dynamic runner in open space, 12 just isn't the best place.

The reason the All Blacks put Nonu there was because they had Conrad Smith, Muliaina, Sivivatu and Rocokoko out wide. They don't have the same issues England do when locating dynamic runners. Their whole backline probably runs the 100m in less than 10 seconds.

But there will be open space for him! Englands whole attacking threat comes through Flood/Youngs with either Ashton/Banahan or Hape running off their shoulder, if Manu is doing that at 12 then he'll cause havoc.

England only use the 13 for a miss pass from Flood which 99% is easily read and closed down, all he'd be expected to do is take contact or pass to the winger, there is so much more potential for him at 12 unless England change their game plan.

Think you're aboslutely right, yappy, and this must be one of England's biggest issues - Ireland managed to close the F/Y partnership down, and the rest is history. Any alternatives that you see?

Manu Tuilagi isn't a great tackler though. Another fabled member of the most missed tackles in the AP club.

beshocked wrote: Manu Tuilagi isn't a great tackler though. Another fabled member of the most missed tackles in the AP club.

Whilst a stat can be useful and I don't doubt that Manu misses probably a few more than most, you do need to be careful with stats. If a player chases down another one to get near enough to make a low chance attempt at a tackle then gets brushed off, is that worse than not getting near enough to even attempting the tackle?

True Beshocked but a good number of those were earlier in the season when he was still raw (well he's still raw now, just less so). His defence improved quite a lot as he settled into a combination with Allen (and Allen started taking great control). Manu makes a lot of big tackles but can be a bit eager to get stuck in sometimes and can drift out of the line. It's why he needs a firm hand on his inside shoulder to guide him.

Sam I am not doubting his attacking abilities and he deserves his place in the England squad. Just questioning his defence. Without Allen to comfort him who will he look to for support at inside centre?

screamingaddabs that's true.

Sheridan (Stevens 50)
Thompson (Hartley 50)
Cole
Shaw (Lawes)
Palmer
Croft
Moody (Wood 50)
Easter
Simpson/ Youngs
Flood
Monye
Bananaman
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

I think this has potential.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:That's what I thought. When you have such a balanced and dynamic runner in open space, 12 just isn't the best place.

The reason the All Blacks put Nonu there was because they had Conrad Smith, Muliaina, Sivivatu and Rocokoko out wide. They don't have the same issues England do when locating dynamic runners. Their whole backline probably runs the 100m in less than 10 seconds.

But there will be open space for him! Englands whole attacking threat comes through Flood/Youngs with either Ashton/Banahan or Hape running off their shoulder, if Manu is doing that at 12 then he'll cause havoc.

England only use the 13 for a miss pass from Flood which 99% is easily read and closed down, all he'd be expected to do is take contact or pass to the winger, there is so much more potential for him at 12 unless England change their game plan.

Think you're aboslutely right, yappy, and this must be one of England's biggest issues - Ireland managed to close the F/Y partnership down, and the rest is history. Any alternatives that you see?

Get a better 12 in there would help, right now Hape's lack of skills mean that Flood takes it all on himself, if we had a better 12 then we'd have more options for Flood. Other then that I'd like to see Cueto and Foden entering the line more, Ashton does this but if the other two did more then the opposition couldn't target him so much.

Tuilagi at 13 and a better attacking winger at 11 would help as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

If Manu does go to the wc and i really hope he does then it must be at 13, but after this and over the next few years i would be interested to see him trialled at 12 for Leicester

Won't happen. The 12 shirt is congested enough with Players Player Ant Allen in storming form and the defensive general and then England Saxons and potential super star Billy Twelvetrees. Outside centre, however, Tigers have Matt Smith and promising England under 20 Andy Forsyth (Tigers top try scorer in the A League by quite a way, scored more than a couple for Notts as well). Outside centre is nailed on for Manu.

England only use the 13 for a miss pass from Flood which 99% is easily read and closed down, all he'd be expected to do is take contact or pass to the winger

Is that because it's easily read or because our outside centres lack the pace/footwork/power to do anything different? The same miss pass is a favourite at Tigers because they know that Manu will break the gain line. Either on the outside and set up a flowing move or if that isn't on he'll smash it back in and get over the gain line taking the two opposition centres with him. I wouldn't compare him to Nonu either, Nonu is bigger and stronger but also slower and doesn't have Manu's step.

Fair enough about no chance to play at 12, to be honest i think i'd prefer Twelvetrees getting more game time really.

And it may well be because Tindall fairly average and Hape doesn't help, will be interesting to see the tactics if MJ does try different centres.

To be honest i don't have a problem where Manu plays, if it means we get more attacking plays going and smarter running from our backs then i'll be happy.

I think we will never know about Manu at 12 unless you try him there to see whether tindall can just shepherd him in the right area. But there is so little time to find a centre combination, the only thing that might help the process is if MJ just completely disregards Hape.

roddersm wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:
Greenwood was always a 12. He wore the 13 shirt because he believed 12 was unlucky after he swallowed his tongue on the Lions tour.

I thought it was because Gusgott wore 12 and because carling wore 13 even though Carling was inside centre? Subsequently Greenwood ended up wearing 13 when he started out inside Gusgott?

Guscott wore Twelve because when he played Bath RFC had actually retired the 13 jersey to commemorate a player who had died. I am not sure when Bath RFC reintroduced the 13 shirt. But Guscott wouldn't wear it at club or international level.

Whatever we do we don't play Tindall at 12.

Both Banahan and Tuilagi have the potential to become decent 12s, but the WC isn't the time to be experimenting with a new 12 and this totally rules out Tuilagi at IC. All we can really hope for is Flutey finding some form.

I wouldn't start Flood or Youngs unless they are showing better form than in the last few months of last season.

Wood in for Robshaw for me, and Botha ahead of Deacon.

Can't really call any England side a strongest XV when the two best inside centres in England are left at home.

We won 4 games this Six Nations with Hape and Tindall in the centres, scoring 12 tries in the process.

In the 2009 Six Nations we scored 16 tries with Flutey at inside centre (Flutey himself scoring a handful of tries) and Tindall outside him (although Noon was outside him in the first game). If we can get Flutey to 2009 form, then he and Tindall could re-unite and hopefully form a strong centre partnership. If not, Hape and Tindall can do a solid if unspectacular job and allow the players outside them to shine. Then we can introduce Tuilagi from the bench a couple of times, maybe give him a start against Georgia or Romania (as Tindall will need to be spelled out) and we can look at using Manu as an impact player.

I would want to get Flutey and Tindall together as quickly as we can to see if they can gel. If Tindall is unavailable this week (due to his nuptials last Saturday) then I would look at Hape and Banahan or Tuilagi, with Flutey and Tindall together in the second week.

If Johnson believes in the Flutey/Tindall partnership and wants to get it back up and running, then I don't think he can bring in an unproven 12 (Allen or Barritt), because if Flutey fails he has to fall back on something he knows (which is Hape and Tindall). We can look at new 12s after the World Cup, but Johnson's decision is understandable.

I would have been tempted to pick someone like Allen or Barritt in the training squad so one of them can get to know the rest of the boys, because if we get an injury we're going to have to call one of them up. One of Allen or Barritt should have been training with the squad, even if they had then been cut before the warm-up games.

beshocked wrote:Can't really call any England side a strongest XV when the two best inside centres in England are left at home.

I agree.

I also don't understand the confidence in Matt Banahan, his form for England has been very poor, especially at inside center.

He's only had one non-capped international at inside centre. He's played a couple of games at outside centre (Ireland and Samoa). Most of his caps have come on the wing, where he actually has a decent strike-rate. Although he's failed to hurt the top teams (Australia and New Zealand in Autumn 2009) I feel he is a more complete player than he was back then. His break for one of Ashton's try against Italy even showed a great turn of pace.

He had one good (televised) game for Bath at inside centre (St George's Day game against Wasps) and many are hoping that he can do it at international level. I think he can cover there, but I wouldn't be planning on starting him there at the moment.

Sam I am not doubting his attacking abilities and he deserves his place in the England squad. Just questioning his defence. Without Allen to comfort him who will he look to for support at inside centre?

Well that is a passing concern. Also a concern that Smith refuses to acknowledge the existence of Allen as well. Flood stated in an interview during the second half of the season that he'd made it known to Smith that Allen would be his preferred choice at 12 and still no call up!

Both Flutey and Hape are experienced pros if they can't lead a defence then England are in trouble and will have to rely heavilly on Tindall for organisation.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sam I am not doubting his attacking abilities and he deserves his place in the England squad. Just questioning his defence. Without Allen to comfort him who will he look to for support at inside centre?

Well that is a passing concern. Also a concern that Smith refuses to acknowledge the existence of Allen as well. Flood stated in an interview during the second half of the season that he'd made it known to Smith that Allen would be his preferred choice at 12 and still no call up!

Both Flutey and Hape are experienced pros if they can't lead a defence then England are in trouble and will have to rely heavilly on Tindall for organisation.

I can understand the quandary though, as Flutey has had little form since recovering from injury and Hape, is consistent but uninspiring... Not to different to Wales' possible pairing of Henson and Roberts. Henson out injured/celebritising himself, Roberts not really in any notable form but reasonably consistent.

Wales do at least have the option of Davies who is in decent form and has proved himself on the international scene. Slot Roberts in as a smashy 12 and job is a good 'un.

Robbo how many of those tries did Hape and Tindall score?

if it was indeed 2009 I would agree about Flutey. It is 2011 though. Since 2009 Flutey has spent his time either being injured or playing for two floundering sides - Brive and Wasps. Picking an injured off form FLutey is actually a huge gamble in my opinion.

Can Flutey play like 2009? I doubt it. Flutey is actually unproven in 2011.

Maestegmafia Banahan has no experience at inside centre! In his only match in the centres for England he got taken to the cleaners by Ireland.

Banahan is supposedly cover for England at inside centre based on a couple of games. Laughable really.

The two best inside centres in England have been consistently the best for 2 seasons in the AP - Brad Barritt and Anthony Allen. If you disagree then who has been in your opinion?

Can anyone justify why they were left at home?

Sam you seem to think A.Allen doesn't fit MJ and the English management. What about B.Barritt?