England WC Training Squad

Saracens prop Matt Stevens and Leicester Tigers centre Manusamoa Tuilagi are among the players named in England Team Manager Martin Johnson’s 45-man preliminary training squad for the Rugby World Cup.

All of the 2011 RBS 6 Nations squad are included, while there are call-ups for Stevens, his Saracens teammate Mouritz Botha and Gloucester wing Charlie Sharples, all of whom helped England Saxons retain the Churchill Cup against Canada on Saturday.

Also named are Leicester Tigers pair Thomas Waldrom and Manusamoa Tuilagi – Rugby Players’ Association Player and Aviva Premiership Young Player of the Year respectively – as well as Richard Wigglesworth from champions Saracens.

Others who will spend the coming weeks preparing for the Investec International against Wales at Twickenham Stadium on August 6 are Bath Rugby hooker Lee Mears, Harlequins wing Ugo Monye, and Gloucester Rugby wing James Simpson-Daniel.

Johnson said: “Every one of these players has the chance to be in that final 30 going to New Zealand. The camp is going to be intense and competitive, as you would expect leading up to a World Cup, but all the players are ready for it.

“We have guys such as Lewis Moody, Jonny Wilkinson and Mike Tindall who have been in this situation before but also a lot of players who won’t have experienced a World Cup training camp. It’s now up to all of them to set down their marker over the next 10 weeks before we head to New Zealand.”

England Rugby World Cup training squad
Forwards

Mouritz Botha
George Chuter
Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Tom Croft
Louis Deacon
Paul Doran-Jones
Nick Easter
Hendre Fourie
Dylan Hartley
James Haskell
Courtney Lawes
Lee Mears
Lewis Moody
Tom Palmer
Tim Payne
Chris Robshaw
Simon Shaw
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Stevens
Steve Thompson
Thomas Waldrom
David Wilson
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley

Backs


Delon Armitage
Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Danny Care
Mark Cueto
Toby Flood
Riki Flutey
Ben Foden
Shontayne Hape
Charlie Hodgson
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
Joe Simpson
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle
Mike Tindall
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Richard Wigglesworth
Jonny Wilkinson
Ben Youngs Leicester

source - http://www.rfu.com/News/2011/June/News%20Articles/200611_RWC_training_squad.aspx


Broken down by position, some really irritating choices in there. I’d expect some changes because quite a few of these players have been crocked for a significant amount of the season.

Props:

Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Paul Doran-Jones
Tim Payne (aggghhh!)
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Steven
David Wilson

Hooker:

Dylan Hartley
George Chuter (seriously????)
Lee Mears
Steve Thompson

Second Rows:

Mouritz Botha
Louis Deacon
Courtney Lawes
Tom Palmer
Simon Shaw

Flankers:

James Haskell
Hendre Fourie
Tom Croft
Lewis Moody
Chris Robshaw
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley (What the fudge!?!)

No 8:

Nick Easter
Tom Waldrom

Scrum Half

Danny Care
Joe Simpson
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly half

Toby Flood
Charlie Hodgson
Jonny Wilkinson

Centres

Rikki Flutey
Shontayne Hape
Mike Tindall
Manu Tuilagi

Wings

Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Mark Cueto
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle

Full back

Dellon Armitage
Ben Foden

Manu Tuilagi makes it. Interesting.

Quick question for you all. How many birth countries are represented in the ENGLAND WC squad? I will start you off...1) England

You cheeky so and so Hobo.

1) England
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)

There are seven in total by the way!

Hobo, naughty . Wait 'till GG pops in ..

Let's see: New Zealand, Samoa, Channel Islands, Trinidad, Kenya, Hong Kong (?)

Edit, in Hobo's format
1) England
2) New Zealand
3) Samoa
4) Channel Islands (Jersey or Guernsey for Banahan)
5) Trinidad
6) Kenya
7) Hong Kong (?)

Any surprises here? I suppose it's good for England that Tuilagi has made it as he gaves them a bit of cutting edge at centre.

Glad to see JSD in there as I think he's a genuine talent who's never really got the international recognition he deserves.

Decent looking squad.

1) England
2) USA
3) Trinidad
4) Kenya
5) Samoa
6) SA
7) NZ

I have to ask it now. Who's bonfire did Anthony Allen take a big steaming urine on?

I can't believe he isn't in there, he's been far, far superior to Hape and Flutey on every level this season. How can he have been overlooked? Genuinely annoyed by this.

Hobo wrote:1) England
2) USA
3) Trinidad
4) Kenya
5) Samoa
6) SA
7) NZ

So doesn't the Channel Islands for Banahan make 8?

I suppose it does!

1) England
2) USA
3) Ireland
4) SA
5) NZ
6) Trinidad
7) Kenya
8) Samoa

Actually eight

Who is the Irish one?

Cumbrian,

Maybe Johnson realises that Allen is just not good enough for international level and has been helped by being in a very strong Tigers side.

Paul Doran-Jones

Oooops, got that one wrong.

By the way Tigers - you win the prize for the longest time between joining and posting!

You joined on day 2 of the forum and only just got a round to it! Welcome by the way!

Joe Simpson was born in Australia i believe so thats 9?

So

1) England
2) USA
3) Ireland
4) SA
5) NZ
6) Trinidad
7) Kenya
8) Samoa
9) Australia
10) Channel Islands

Broken down by position, some really irritating choices in there. I’d expect some changes because quite a few of these players have been crocked for a significant amount of the season.

Props:

Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Paul Doran-Jones
Tim Payne (aggghhh!)
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Steven
David Wilson

Hooker:

Dylan Hartley
George Chuter (seriously????)
Lee Mears
Steve Thompson

Second Rows:

Mouritz Botha
Louis Deacon
Courtney Lawes
Tom Palmer
Simon Shaw

Flankers:

James Haskell
Hendre Fourie
Tom Croft
Lewis Moody
Chris Robshaw
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley (What the fudge!?!)

No 8:

Nick Easter
Tom Waldrom

Scrum Half

Danny Care
Joe Simpson
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly half

Toby Flood
Charlie Hodgson
Jonny Wilkinson

Centres

Rikki Flutey
Shontayne Hape
Mike Tindall
Manu Tuilagi

Wings

Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Mark Cueto
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle

Full back

Dellon Armitage
Ben Foden

Dowson should be in the squad, he is an extremely underated player and can player anywhere in the back row. However as a Saints fan I am quite glad he will stay whilst most of our other players will be off.

MBTGOG wrote:Cumbrian,

Maybe Johnson realises that Allen is just not good enough for international level and has been helped by being in a very strong Tigers side.

On what evidence? The fact that he had a bad game four years ago? Whereas Shontayne Hape has been amazing for England. Anthony Allen has been much better that either of the inside centres in the squad all season. I find that he is considered to be outside the top 45 players in the country amazing.

Tigers have looked significantly worse when he hasn't been in their side this season and he was voted their player's player of the season, hardly seems like he is being carried to me.

Surely Tom Johnson should be there instead of Worsley and David Paice instead of Chuter, Anyone agree?

ARMITAGE how?
Can anyone explain how he is a better player than Goode or Brown?

mpc28 wrote:Surely Tom Johnson should be there instead of Worsley and David Paice instead of Chuter, Anyone agree?

There needs to be some experience in the side!!

..although i do agree with you re Worsley

A few lucky lads in that squad.

Payne, Shaw, Worsley and Hape haven't done a great deal in any jersey for some time. Shaw I can understand, with top class pre-tournament conditioning MJ probably thinks that's a gamble worth taking. A proven performer with real power. But I thought Mullan in the CC was better than anything seen from Payne in the last 12 months, Johnson's had a far better season than Worsley and showing good recent form (you could also argue similarly for Crane) and Hape on just about every indicator I can think of is behind both Allen and Barritt, having never really performed to a particularly high standard in rugby union.

I also think the recent form of Paice should have been enough to displace the very solid Chuter.

Surely there is enough experience in that squad to cope without those 2.

mpc28 wrote:Surely Tom Johnson should be there instead of Worsley and David Paice instead of Chuter, Anyone agree?

Bang on.

In fact there are a long list of players I'd rather have in the squad than these two players:

In place of Chuter I would rather see: David Paice, Joe Gray, Brett Sharman, Rob Webber, Neil Briggs or Neil Clarke

In place of Joe Worsley I'd rather see: Tom Johnson, Andy Saull, Calum Clarke or even James Gaskell.

I'm generally a fan of Johnson's selection policies, but these seem to be more about experience than actual playing ability. Both players were decent in their prime, but they are both past it now.

Just had a look at Manu Tuilagi's wikipedia page:

In June 2010, Tuilagi faced deportation from the United Kingdom after it emerged that he had entered the country on a holiday visa six years earlier and had stayed on illegally.[7] After an appeal, he was later granted indefinite leave to remain.

What a great representation for ENGLAND!

Cumbrian,

I'm basing it on how he fared against the Leinster centres, an international standard pairing, and he looked way out of his depth.

further to my comments about non English in the England squad:

America

Alex Corbisiero

Australia

Joe Simpson
Hong Kong

Charlie Sharples
Ireland

Paul Doran-Jones

Jersey

Matt Banahan

Kenya

Simon Shaw
New Zealand

Thomas Waldrom, Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape, Dylan Hartley

Samoa

Manu Tuilagi

South Africa

Hendre Fourie, Mouritz Botha, Matt Stevens
Trinidad

Delon Armitage

Had a question from someone on Twitter:

alexdodgson Alex Dodgson
@
@606v2rugby Why didnt abendanon make the squad

Can anyone give their opinion as to why?

Hobo wrote:Just had a look at Manu Tuilagi's wikipedia page:

In June 2010, Tuilagi faced deportation from the United Kingdom after it emerged that he had entered the country on a holiday visa six years earlier and had stayed on illegally.[7] After an appeal, he was later granted indefinite leave to remain.

What a great representation for ENGLAND!

Well if you read his Wiki page you would have noticed he went to school here, played all his rugby here etc.

For an admin your comment is a bit wummish!!

To be honest, I dont like the guy after his actions on Ashton (who I dont particularly like either!).

I feel he got off lightly and shouldnt be anywhere near the England squad at the moment as punishment.

I disagree, I don‘t think either of Leicester‘s centres were blown away in that game. Even if they were, you’d base your opinion on one game, where he was playing against the best club side (and centre) in Europe away from home? Tad harsh don’t you think?

Can I report an administrator for taking his/her own article off topic and for trying to instigate wumming and tired, old residency arguments?

Tad harsh maybe but going to the World Cup is the biggest stage in the game and that Leinster game was the biggest game he played in this season.

It's rather sad in this day and age that where someone is born is made into such a big deal. I thought we had risen above making an issue of it.

Hobo is clearly attempting to have a dig and is therefore wumming, he should have his admin status suspended.

I thought it was an interesting statement on the benefits of multi-culturalism

Meanwhile, I notice Otago have named a Saffa as captain for the INL Cup this year http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/provincial/5131851/Eben-Joubert-named-Otago-rugby-captain. Good to see old stagers like Tony Brown and Kees Meeuws there too

True Thunor.

What we shouldn't go past though is the person born and raised in another country.

MBTGOG wrote:Tad harsh maybe but going to the World Cup is the biggest stage in the game and that Leinster game was the biggest game he played in this season.

And he had a solid game - it might be a case of seeing that game depending on which side you are watching it from but him and Manu looked at home to me lined up against the Ireland centre partnership, despite the fact that Allen was playing outside an off form fly half which was putting more pressure on him.
And he looked a huge amount better against Leinster then Hape did against Ireland, as he also looks better than him whenever he plays Bath - which is really the big thing here isn't it? How good he is doesn't matter, what matters is how good he is compared to the players, Hape and Flutey, who are picked ahead of him, since we're discussing England and not a Lions team. I rate him as being comfortable ahead of either.

MBTGOG wrote:Tad harsh maybe but going to the World Cup is the biggest stage in the game and that Leinster game was the biggest game he played in this season.

Like I said, I don't think he was that bad in that game. I watched the game and I've read the match reports, nowhere does it say that he was embarrassed during the game. They say that O'Driscoll was excellent and they had praise for Manu Tuilagi. They do not say that the Leicester centres were completely outclassed.

You're missing my point though. I'm not comparing him to the likes of O'Driscoll, Sonny Bill Williams or Matt Giteau. I am comparing him to a very limited out of form player who missed the latter part of the season with an injury but still got in ahead of him into the squad.

I believe whoever England pick in the centres will be inferior to their opponents should they get knockout stages, but they are making it worse by selecting players like Shontayne Hape. I just don’t understand what they see in him that they don’t see in Allen.

I'd say Chuter, Mears, Payne, Worsley and Flutey are lucky to be there - I've not seen enough from them this season to justify their places in the squad, though in Mears case I think he's mostly spent the season struggling with injury so he has an excuse.
Same for Hape as well really but he's a first choice player so harder to see dropped.

I'd assume Banahahahahan is being picked as a centre who can cover wing, given how he's been used by England this season, rather than as a wing.

Im shocked that neither goode nor Brown has made the 45.
To limit England to Foden and Armitage as the only fullback options for the squad seems bopnkers, no comeptition for a guy who hasnt peformed for a year and has just served a long ban?
It just seems insane to me.

Even if you accpet Armitage deserves a shot to prove himself it seems nuts to not have another option, oh wait theres always Cueto whos a wing serving a long ban and err Monye who was a compoelte disaster when played there. Whilst those two could offer some cover in the squad from the bench/against weak nations they couldnt replace Armitage in the tour party.
Giving him a free pass to the world cup is nuts. Ive been a big supporter of Johnsons regime, but this is just weird.

The 4 centers all seem to have a free pass too. I cant believe theyd only take 3, yet none of those look like players who truely deserve to be sho-ins.

Yet theres 7 wings in the squad. I guess that menas Banahn is a center , so I suppose that means one of the other 4 might nbot go so remove that bit of the rant. But theres still one too many wings in the squad that could have allowed Goode or Brown to prove they are better than Armitage, which most of us belive anyway.


Worsely? Really? Sigh. I thought that had died with the disatser against Scotland over a year ago.

Tim Payne? STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID gahhhhhhhhhh
However surely theres very little chance he'll actually go. I just feel hes a waste of a place in the training sqaud which could have gone to another fullback or center option where England do actually have tough choices to find players to take to the WC.


#rant over

Im not amazed that Attwood missed out.
Neither Chuter nor Mears deserves to go to the WC, but theyw ill want to take 3 hookers. Really the reserve choice isnt that big a deal, but I do feel sorry for Paice.

Fly half choice pretty inevitable. All 3 will probably go, especially with no Goode in the squad it would be a huge risk just to take two.

Whats ridiclous regarding the Tuilagi situation is that if he'd been playing for Samoa then he would have had no trouble getting a work permit...yet he chose to go through the Englnad age grade systm and nail his colours to his adopted home, then suddenly found himself unable to get a permit to stay.
He could have been picked for the England tour of Australia whilst not being legally able to enter Britain.

I can't believe this squad. I've given up trying to predict Johnno.

Hookers:
No real problems. Hartley, Thompson and Chuter have been our 3 hookers for a while, so it's no surprise that they are all there. Mears isn't a bad option, but I'm sure Paice would have been asking what more he needs to do. I would have had Mears as third choice hooker for the last season, and Paice would have played his way into the fourth spot.

Props:
Someone argued on another thread that Fitzgerald was better than Trimble because he was a Lion. I joked "Tim Payne is a Lion" and listed about 10 loose-heads I rate more highly then him. I'm not laughing now. I would have taken the 6 other props Johnson picked and no more, but Tim Payne getting in makes me a little ill.

Locks:
I would have taken 6 with Kitchener getting involved (assuming Attwood is ruled out due to injury), but no problems with who's going.

Flankers:
Okay, Worsley has been in the EPS all this time, but WHY?! We have options now, and I can't believe he's been retained. Tom Johnson went to the World Cup and did everything asked of him. Like with the props I would have only taken 6 flankers, but the fact that Worsley is an extra option makes me worry.

Number 8:
If Waldrom was an option, why not send him to the Churchill Cup to see how he goes? Crane is a great 8 and started a lot of the bigger games for Leicester. I can't believe he's gone for Waldrom.

Scrum-halves:
Thought Paul Hodgson might have played his way in, but no problems with the 4 named.

Fly-halves:
The three I would have picked.

Centres:
Don't get me started. Riki Flutey over Anthony Allen and Brad Barritt? I would have taken both over Flutey, Allen pushing for the starting spot, Barritt to cover any injuries to a front-line 10. Hape I don't mind, it shows consistency, but I can't get on board with Riki Flutey, even though I was a big fan of his just a couple of year ago.

Wings:
Do we need 7 wings? I would probably only take 3 to the World Cup, so maybe not. Still, no problems with personnel.

Full-backs:
Foden. Fine. Armitage... what? I would have had Brown and Alex Goode in there, with Abendanon as back up, and Morgan as well (if fit) ahead of Armitage. Sure, he's got a few caps and played well in 2009, but his form has been shoddy and he can't keep out of trouble at the moment. Brown and Goode have both been electric for their clubs and Saxons.

Payne, Worlsey, Flutey and Armitage I just can't believe (3 of them Wasps, who have had a dreadful league season) while I think the pick of Waldrom is wrong too. The others I could get on board with.

Sorry to keep ranting about this, but all three of the frontline centres have had fairly serious injury issues this season. I would put good money on one or even two of them coming unstuck during the warm-ups. The management must have realised this, but decide to include SEVEN wingers, but only one extra centres (depending upon how you see Banahan). This must seem like a really big snub the likes of Anthony Allen, Brad Barritt, George Lowe, Jordan Turner-Hall and Jon Clarke.

SafeAsMilk wrote:Can I report an administrator for taking his/her own article off topic and for trying to instigate wumming and tired, old residency arguments?

Hobo's put up the England squad for debate, same as he's done for several other RWC squads, and there's some good debate going on. Everything he's posted is factually correct, and IMO there's a difference between adding in some banter - as he has here, and Wumming. While there has been some comment about the fact that a fair number of the squad is foreign born, no-one's had a wumming dig about it, and I'll be deleting any wum posts that pop up on this thread.

K

I think the contentious choices (Payne, Worsley, Chuter maybe) are more there for the experience they'll bring to the camp that the young players can learn from, and are unlikely to make the final cut. And for all the criticism usually directed at them, they've been very good servants to English rugby. The only selection I'm really unhappy about is the exclusion of Paice who should be ahead of both Mears and Chuter. TBH we all know pretty much what the squad will be barring maybe a couple of spots (third choice scrum half, utility back).

Kiwi, I'd argue that the wording "non English in the England squad" is a wumming dig, you can be English without being born there, so add "born" in that sentence and I don't have a problem with it. In fact, I'm proud that so many people love England enough to stay there and plya rugby