England WC Training Squad

by Adam D Mon 20 Jun 2011, 10:04 am

First topic message reminder :

Saracens prop Matt Stevens and Leicester Tigers centre Manusamoa Tuilagi are among the players named in England Team Manager Martin Johnson’s 45-man preliminary training squad for the Rugby World Cup.

All of the 2011 RBS 6 Nations squad are included, while there are call-ups for Stevens, his Saracens teammate Mouritz Botha and Gloucester wing Charlie Sharples, all of whom helped England Saxons retain the Churchill Cup against Canada on Saturday.

Also named are Leicester Tigers pair Thomas Waldrom and Manusamoa Tuilagi – Rugby Players’ Association Player and Aviva Premiership Young Player of the Year respectively – as well as Richard Wigglesworth from champions Saracens.

Others who will spend the coming weeks preparing for the Investec International against Wales at Twickenham Stadium on August 6 are Bath Rugby hooker Lee Mears, Harlequins wing Ugo Monye, and Gloucester Rugby wing James Simpson-Daniel.

Johnson said: “Every one of these players has the chance to be in that final 30 going to New Zealand. The camp is going to be intense and competitive, as you would expect leading up to a World Cup, but all the players are ready for it.

“We have guys such as Lewis Moody, Jonny Wilkinson and Mike Tindall who have been in this situation before but also a lot of players who won’t have experienced a World Cup training camp. It’s now up to all of them to set down their marker over the next 10 weeks before we head to New Zealand.”

England Rugby World Cup training squad
Forwards

Mouritz Botha
George Chuter
Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Tom Croft
Louis Deacon
Paul Doran-Jones
Nick Easter
Hendre Fourie
Dylan Hartley
James Haskell
Courtney Lawes
Lee Mears
Lewis Moody
Tom Palmer
Tim Payne
Chris Robshaw
Simon Shaw
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Stevens
Steve Thompson
Thomas Waldrom
David Wilson
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley

Backs

Delon Armitage
Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Danny Care
Mark Cueto
Toby Flood
Riki Flutey
Ben Foden
Shontayne Hape
Charlie Hodgson
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
Joe Simpson
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle
Mike Tindall
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Richard Wigglesworth
Jonny Wilkinson
Ben Youngs Leicester

source - http://www.rfu.com/News/2011/June/News%20Articles/200611_RWC_training_squad.aspx

Broken down by position, some really irritating choices in there. I’d expect some changes because quite a few of these players have been crocked for a significant amount of the season.

Props:

Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Paul Doran-Jones
Tim Payne (aggghhh!)
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Steven
David Wilson

Hooker:

Dylan Hartley
George Chuter (seriously????)
Lee Mears
Steve Thompson

Second Rows:

Mouritz Botha
Louis Deacon
Courtney Lawes
Tom Palmer
Simon Shaw

Flankers:

James Haskell
Hendre Fourie
Tom Croft
Lewis Moody
Chris Robshaw
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley (What the fudge!?!)

No 8:

Nick Easter
Tom Waldrom

Scrum Half

Danny Care
Joe Simpson
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly half

Toby Flood
Charlie Hodgson
Jonny Wilkinson

Centres

Rikki Flutey
Shontayne Hape
Mike Tindall
Manu Tuilagi

Wings

Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Mark Cueto
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle

Full back

Dellon Armitage
Ben Foden

by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Jun 2011, 2:00 pm

I can understand the rationale for Flutey and Armitage - both have played well for England under Johnson and neither are bad players. I also don't think Armitage has played badly for Irish this season when he's been on the pitch. It was really with England last season that his form was so poor.

by johnpartle Tue 21 Jun 2011, 2:12 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:And what would you expect England to do with him? Given that their preferred centers have been Hape, Tindall, and Banahan!

England are looking for their centers to be offloading defender drawing battering rams with the outside backs running either side of them to make the break off that.

I would hope they use him in a similar way, but also make use of his superior wider distribution abilities. I back the hard running, offloading IC that keeps the defence honest, but the best have more than one string to their bow and that ability to more reliably mix things up is what will give teams an edge in midfield. As you rightly point out, you can't rely on one aspect of play and not expect the top teams curtail it. For the coming years, Barritt & Twelvetrees best approximate those preferred IC abilties for me. I really rate Allen, but would prefer to play him at OC in the English set up, a position he has played on more than a few occasions and where his more elusive running would reap more benefits.

As I've said before, I never expected Hape or Flutey to be dropped though. Hape has done an alright job for England, but I'd prefer someone who offers a bit more. Flutey at his best could be physical, distribute and show some good footwork, but I haven't seen that for a few years; Johnson showing a lot of faith and backing experience here, but that's far from unusual for him.

by Tom-Dick-Harry Tue 21 Jun 2011, 2:25 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I can understand the rationale for Flutey and Armitage - both have played well for England under Johnson and neither are bad players. I also don't think Armitage has played badly for Irish this season when he's been on the pitch. It was really with England last season that his form was so poor.

Maybe so but Brown and Goode have been far better than Armitage this year he has not done anything to warrant being picked over them if as you say he only played badly with England and that the other two are unquestionably playing better than him he has been picked based only on previously playing for England which is a joke.

by HammerofThunor Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:00 pm

Tom-Dick-Harry wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I can understand the rationale for Flutey and Armitage - both have played well for England under Johnson and neither are bad players. I also don't think Armitage has played badly for Irish this season when he's been on the pitch. It was really with England last season that his form was so poor.

Maybe so but Brown and Goode have been far better than Armitage this year he has not done anything to warrant being picked over them if as you say he only played badly with England and that the other two are unquestionably playing better than him he has been picked based only on previously playing for England which is a joke.

Yet Foden only has a few caps so if he gets crocked you have another new guy coming in without any experience

by snoopster Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:03 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Yet Foden only has a few caps so if he gets crocked you have another new guy coming in without any experience

Given what I've seen of Armitage over the last couple of seasons, I'd prefer to risk the new player who lacks experience and might not be good enough to the more experienced player who currently isn't good enough and has a bad additude.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:06 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Tom-Dick-Harry wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I can understand the rationale for Flutey and Armitage - both have played well for England under Johnson and neither are bad players. I also don't think Armitage has played badly for Irish this season when he's been on the pitch. It was really with England last season that his form was so poor.

Maybe so but Brown and Goode have been far better than Armitage this year he has not done anything to warrant being picked over them if as you say he only played badly with England and that the other two are unquestionably playing better than him he has been picked based only on previously playing for England which is a joke.

Yet Foden only has a few caps so if he gets crocked you have another new guy coming in without any experience

How many caps does Armitage have again? He certainly isnt a major in the 50 cap cavalry brigade! Nor can he be described as a cool head.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:13 pm

I'm not saying Armitage is a form pick at all, both Goode and Brown have good cause to be peeved, but Armitage has shown he has class at this level, and I thought he played pretty well in the second half of the season prior to suspension.

Personally I'd have used Goode at 15 for the Saxons and all going well selected him for the WC squad. The option of having him come into the line as a second distributor could be a good option for England, particularly if the centres are going comprise two relatively static lumps. It would have been a risk taking an uncapped player, but I think his performances in the pressure games at the end of the season, as well as his consistency generally throughout the year, would have merited it.

But I don't think Armitage is really an issue. I rate him highly as a player. There are worse calls in this initial squad than that.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:23 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Personally I'd have used Goode at 15 for the Saxons and all going well selected him for the WC squad. The option of having him come into the line as a second distributor could be a good option for England, particularly if the centres are going comprise two relatively static lumps. It would have been a risk taking an uncapped player, but I think his performances in the pressure games at the end of the season, as well as his consistency generally throughout the year, would have merited it.

But I don't think Armitage is really an issue. I rate him highly as a player. There are worse calls in this initial squad than that.

I think what is an issue is that you have a guy who hasnt played well for England for sometime and hasnt played any rugby at all for quite a while having no competion to go on the plane to the WC.
It just seems bonkers to me to have a guy who may well prove to be incredibly rusty as your only option, when theres two other guys who as you say have shwon they do have the ability albeit unproven at test level. If Armitage struggles in the warm up games it leaves Johnson no option but to take him anyway or just do without proper fullback cover and hope Foden can play every game. Infact if Armitage is pretty much garunteed to be the 22nd man in a first choice lineup from this squad no matter how badly out of touch he is, for me his lack of recent rugby and moribund performances for England plus tempremant issues makes that a worry.

by robbo277 Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:26 pm

I wouldn't have been too upset if Armitage was in the squad if another full-back was in there as well, either Brown or Goode.

Sharples and Monye are wastes of picks in my opinion, and that's not meant as a slur on either player. Banahan, Ashton, Cueto and Foden are going to the World Cup if fit and there is room for possibly one more back three player. In my opinion, that's either going to be Strettle or Simpson-Daniel (with Cueto covering full-back) or a dedicated full-back, and two should have been picked in the training squad to give us more options in the squad. Then if we got injuries to Ashton or Cueto we could call up Monye or Sharples to the training squad.

As it is, I wouldn't be looking to take Armitage to the World Cup. It will depend on how he does at the training camp, but I would be more than happy for Cueto to cover 15, take 2 "specialist" wingers in Ashton and Simpson-Daniel and take Banahan as a centre who can cover wing.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:31 pm

I just wonder whether MJ considers Cueto legitimate 15 cover, which may explain the apparent lack of alternatives at 15 to Foden and Armitage. Not my cup of tea, I prefer specialists in specialist positions, and although Cueto has played 15 before, never to the sort of level that has left me convinced.

Anyway, my view is clear, I wouldn't have gone for Armitage principally because I believe there was a better option, but I'll stand by my view that Armitage is not a bad player at all, and in his pomp (although some time ago), he was a better player than Brown has been and will ever be. Clearly MJ isn't picking him on form given his enforced absense, but rather in hope that we see the abilities once more that he clearly has.

by robbo277 Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:35 pm

Cueto started the first game of the World Cup last time round at full-back, and has also played there more recently against the All Blacks in 2009.

I think Cueto is fine to cover 15 for a game or two if Foden picks up a knock. If Foden picks up a long-term injury, then he can be replaced in the squad.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:43 pm

I should clarify, when I said "level", I didn't mean that he hadn't played that position in important international matches, I was referring to his performances in those games.

Armitage is a better 15 than Cueto, no question.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 21 Jun 2011, 3:51 pm

Yeah Cueto played fullback during the era that everyone wanted 3 wingers on the pitch, something most sides ditched very quickly post 2007 especially with the rule tinkering. Most sides now want 2 kickers in the back 3, which is why Cueto is importnat on the wing.

Exiled,
I agree that Armitage is a player who has potential to play well again for England. I just think its a huge risk to put all the eggs in that basket, and Goode deserved the chance to oust him. Theres one too many wings in the training squad and one too few fullbacks. Its not a case that Armitage shouldnt be there, just he shouldnt be garaunteed a free pass.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Jun 2011, 4:43 pm

I completely agree with that. Goode ahead of either Moyne or Sharples would have made a lot more sense at this stage, then MJ could have seen an additional option at 15 during the training camp.

by DaveM Tue 21 Jun 2011, 10:43 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:His experience at international level has been largely having his face pushed into the mud as his side of the scrum collapses once more. Whereas I can see how someone like Shaw could still bring something to the table despite not being on any sort of form, with Payne I just don'g get it. He's nothing more than a journeyman, and the likes of Mullan and Marler are already far better players with a lot more promise.

That's not true - his last appearances for England in Australia were part of an England scrum that was almost embarrassingly superior. Payne has obvious limitations, and has had a poor season, but to say he can't scrummage isn't fair.

Mullan couldn't get into a Championship side at the end of the season, and Marler is in his first season and is quite open that he has a huge amount to learn before he is ready for international rugby. MJ is looking for serious contenders for the WC, or players who can test those that are, and Mullan and Marler aren't seen as meeting that description.

Ultimately there is almost no chance Payne will be picked for the final squad, but he does know what it's like to go to Australia and win, and that makes him one of a vert small number of looseheads in English rugby history.

by nganboy Wed 22 Jun 2011, 2:00 am

Hobo wrote:Just had a look at Manu Tuilagi's wikipedia page:

In June 2010, Tuilagi faced deportation from the United Kingdom after it emerged that he had entered the country on a holiday visa six years earlier and had stayed on illegally.[7] After an appeal, he was later granted indefinite leave to remain.

What a great representation for ENGLAND!

Actually Hobo you will find the biggest group of overstayers in NZ is people from the UK.
Soooo that means he fits right in Whistle

by Mehrts is god Wed 22 Jun 2011, 4:19 am

Big ups to Thomas Waldrom.If he's good enough to be a respected Canterbury Crusader then he's definately good enough for the English cup squad. In fact he could turn out to be their trump card at the cup itself.

by Mr Bounce Wed 22 Jun 2011, 8:18 am

Does anyone know what happened to Dan Ward-Smith? He was in the touring squad last year in Australia as 8 & lock cover and had a cracking game mid-week. Know he got injured but seemed to be back to playing well for Wasps.

I thought he'd be used as cover for back row and lock a la Martin Corry in 2003.

Now he doesn't seem to be featuring in either the Saxons or pre-RWC squads. Out of form? Out of favour? Injured again?

by funnyExiledScot Wed 22 Jun 2011, 9:58 am

"That's not true - his last appearances for England in Australia were part of an England scrum that was almost embarrassingly superior. Payne has obvious limitations, and has had a poor season, but to say he can't scrummage isn't fair."

Hang-on DaveM, on that day Australia were down to their third choice front row. The fact that Payne was so dominant proves that the Australia front row on that day was laughably poor. Payne's scrummaging has been average to poor for a number of years. It has been a weakness for Wasps for seasons. On top of this, his workrate around the park is second rate. Don't let the fact that he bullied some 3rd choice Aussie kid cloud years of mediocrity. The two Benn's with the powerful Stephen Moore between them would not have allowed Payne to do the same.

Marler certainly has a lot to learn, but I already think he's a better player based on performances this season (which should be enough), and what better experience than to be part of the preparation for the WC. Next time he'll probably be going, whereas Payne will be on the after dinner speaking circuit.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 22 Jun 2011, 10:17 am

Mehrts is god wrote:Big ups to Thomas Waldrom.If he's good enough to be a respected Canterbury Crusader then he's definately good enough for the English cup squad. In fact he could turn out to be their trump card at the cup itself.

Good enough to sit on the bench for Crusaders and Tigers is hardly a ringing endorment of top level international quality. He also happens to be behind Jordan Crane, England reject, in the Tigers pecking order.
I hope Waldrom does well dont get me wrong, but Im not as dazzled by the Sky commentators as some people. Yes he can carry the vball well and run through smaller Premiership defenders, can he do that against the monstrous SA backrow? What happens when he has to pick the ball up and as his coach put it "his stomach gets in the way" again.
He has his good points, and he has his flaws too. Same goes for Tuilagi, but I guess both have the attitude England are looking for and the potential to make an imapct as well as the potential to be a nightmare.

In Tuilagis favour hes certainly a big game player and isnt intimidated by anyone, I just hope he can keep that under wraps. As well as busting up a certain winger in his first playoff game he got into two punch ups when playing the second string Australians. Whilst part of me would love to se him go toe to toe with SBW in the world cup boxing I do worry that his response to intimidation is to simply put his fist in peoples faces.

by HammerofThunor Wed 22 Jun 2011, 10:35 am

Payne doesn't generally do badling at international level. Not great but ok.

We'll have Stevens, Corbisiero and Sheridan in the squad as well. I'd expect them to be in frinal 30 along with Cole and Wilson (maybe Corbisiero/Wilson missing out).

by funnyExiledScot Wed 22 Jun 2011, 10:55 am

Well I think we're all agreed that Payne isn't really near the actual WC squad. I'd say all the more reason to go with someone else.

I'd expect 5 props to be picked: Cole, Stevens, Corbisiero, Sheridan and Wilson. It's a strong group and crucially Stevens, Corbisiero and Wilson can all cover both sides if needed.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed 22 Jun 2011, 11:01 am

I agree. Payne won't be near he WC final 30, he''s there because he's been in that environment before and has plenty of international experience, whereas the rest of the props are still pretty inexperienced (Cole and Corbs are very young, Stevens just back from a long time out of the game, etc.)

I expect that if England pick five props they'll be the ones mentioned by funnyExiledScot above, if they pick four than prob Wilson to miss out.

by HammerofThunor Wed 22 Jun 2011, 11:10 am

He's there because because if someone get crocked part way through you don't want someone green coming in who doesn't know the systems or the players. Payne will ease in a lot simpler than someone like Marler. We'll already probably have Corbisiero (22), Cole (24?) and Wilson (26?) (probably) getting game time and they're all young for props.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 22 Jun 2011, 11:13 am

Thunor - I agree that probably is MJ's logic re: Payne, but I still don't agree with it. The age thing is a side track, I mentioned it only as an aside. The key point is that Marler is (already) the better player. It's on that basis that I'd pick him.

by johnpartle Wed 22 Jun 2011, 1:10 pm

As I've already mentioned, I'm pretty sure Payne is just there for experience at the training camp. A stat that confirms this for me is his penalty count for the season, 36 in 20 games (the next highest being Ally Hogg on 26 in 21 games).

by funnyExiledScot Wed 22 Jun 2011, 1:19 pm

That's a pretty damning stat, and I'm sure there's not too many high tackles or deliberate knock-ons in those 36 penalties. Journeyman.

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