England WC Training Squad

by Adam D Mon 20 Jun 2011, 10:04 am

First topic message reminder :

Saracens prop Matt Stevens and Leicester Tigers centre Manusamoa Tuilagi are among the players named in England Team Manager Martin Johnson’s 45-man preliminary training squad for the Rugby World Cup.

All of the 2011 RBS 6 Nations squad are included, while there are call-ups for Stevens, his Saracens teammate Mouritz Botha and Gloucester wing Charlie Sharples, all of whom helped England Saxons retain the Churchill Cup against Canada on Saturday.

Also named are Leicester Tigers pair Thomas Waldrom and Manusamoa Tuilagi – Rugby Players’ Association Player and Aviva Premiership Young Player of the Year respectively – as well as Richard Wigglesworth from champions Saracens.

Others who will spend the coming weeks preparing for the Investec International against Wales at Twickenham Stadium on August 6 are Bath Rugby hooker Lee Mears, Harlequins wing Ugo Monye, and Gloucester Rugby wing James Simpson-Daniel.

Johnson said: “Every one of these players has the chance to be in that final 30 going to New Zealand. The camp is going to be intense and competitive, as you would expect leading up to a World Cup, but all the players are ready for it.

“We have guys such as Lewis Moody, Jonny Wilkinson and Mike Tindall who have been in this situation before but also a lot of players who won’t have experienced a World Cup training camp. It’s now up to all of them to set down their marker over the next 10 weeks before we head to New Zealand.”

England Rugby World Cup training squad
Forwards

Mouritz Botha
George Chuter
Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Tom Croft
Louis Deacon
Paul Doran-Jones
Nick Easter
Hendre Fourie
Dylan Hartley
James Haskell
Courtney Lawes
Lee Mears
Lewis Moody
Tom Palmer
Tim Payne
Chris Robshaw
Simon Shaw
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Stevens
Steve Thompson
Thomas Waldrom
David Wilson
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley

Backs

Delon Armitage
Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Danny Care
Mark Cueto
Toby Flood
Riki Flutey
Ben Foden
Shontayne Hape
Charlie Hodgson
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
Joe Simpson
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle
Mike Tindall
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Richard Wigglesworth
Jonny Wilkinson
Ben Youngs Leicester

source - http://www.rfu.com/News/2011/June/News%20Articles/200611_RWC_training_squad.aspx

Broken down by position, some really irritating choices in there. I’d expect some changes because quite a few of these players have been crocked for a significant amount of the season.

Props:

Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Paul Doran-Jones
Tim Payne (aggghhh!)
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Steven
David Wilson

Hooker:

Dylan Hartley
George Chuter (seriously????)
Lee Mears
Steve Thompson

Second Rows:

Mouritz Botha
Louis Deacon
Courtney Lawes
Tom Palmer
Simon Shaw

Flankers:

James Haskell
Hendre Fourie
Tom Croft
Lewis Moody
Chris Robshaw
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley (What the fudge!?!)

No 8:

Nick Easter
Tom Waldrom

Scrum Half

Danny Care
Joe Simpson
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly half

Toby Flood
Charlie Hodgson
Jonny Wilkinson

Centres

Rikki Flutey
Shontayne Hape
Mike Tindall
Manu Tuilagi

Wings

Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Mark Cueto
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle

Full back

Dellon Armitage
Ben Foden

by tooboredtowork Mon 20 Jun 2011, 12:52 pm

T-m-Dick-Harry:

Agree with you regarding Armitage. I have never been a Brown fan, but even I have to admit that his form has been excellent, and far better than that of Armitage. (I suspect Armitage gets the nod because he can also cover 13).

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 12:56 pm

Hobo
further to my comments about non English in the England squad:

America: Alex Corbisiero
English mum and moved to England before his 5th birthday.

Australia: Joe Simpson
English father and went to school here.

Hong Kong: Charlie Sharples
Wasn't Hong Kong a British colony when he was born there? Either way, he came up through the Gloucester academy and to call him "non-English" is ridiculous.

Ireland: Paul Doran-Jones
English father. Represented both England and Ireland at youth level because he went to school in England and University in Dublin. As English as he is "non-English".

Jersey: Matt Banahan
This is getting ridiculous. As he is Jersey-born I think he could have picked any of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland but in rugby terms Jersey is an English club, so Banahan has played all his rugby for English clubs and chose to represent England. It would be a bit of a farce if he had represented any other countries.

Kenya: Simon Shaw
We really doing this? Shaw isn't English? Right.

New Zealand: Thomas Waldrom, Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape, Dylan Hartley
6 players in and we finally get a couple of bones of contention. I think Flutey should have been tied into NZ by playing for the Maori, and I don't think if that were the case he would have rejected the call, so I'll agree with you on Flutey.
Waldrom does have his English granny, although I question his motives for playing for England. I would require naturalisation in order to qualify for a national team, which would show where his heart is.
I don't have too many problems with Hape, as he has been here for 8 years and made the switch from the Super League to the Premiership. Although he's not English, he has only played rugby union in England.
Hartley moved to this country when he was 14, so I have no problem with him representing England.

Samoa: Manu Tuilagi
See Hartley. Moved here when he was in his early teens.

South Africa: Hendre Fourie, Mouritz Botha, Matt Stevens
Fourie and Botha both came here to play lower league Rugby Union and worked there way up - suggesting they came here for life reasons and not rugby reasons. They're not English, but both have been here far longer than the required 3 years and the players they are now are products of the English Rugby system.
Stevens had an English father and grandfather and came here to study at University and decided to make a life for himself in this country.

Trinidad: Delon Armitage
It was his English step-father who encouraged him and his brothers to play rugby (who are all professional players now). He's now been here for over 9 years. Although he doesn't have English blood, it would be wrong to say he's not English.

So out of that lot, only Waldrom and Flutey played senior professional rugby union outside of England. A few more aren't English, but I wouldn't quibble with their right to play for England.

In my opinion, international qualification should take into account the decisions we take as adults. So, if a player plays for the Under-20s or any senior representative team he is tied in to that country. If a player wants to represent a country (at Under-20 level or above), he has to acheive naturalisation in that country.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 20 Jun 2011, 12:57 pm

Armitage is a fine player but hasn't had a great year, but he does cover OC and wing so his versatility is probably what gets him in the squad. Not convinced by Brown, very solid club player but I think he's a bit slow for international rugby. I think also Armitage's experience tips the balance in his favour, he's been around the squad for two or three years now and I think in WC suads you want the players who are comfortable in this environment...

by Tom-Dick-Harry Mon 20 Jun 2011, 12:59 pm

Oh well if there is a punch at the world cup in a hotel England are bound to win with this squad

by Cumbrian Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:03 pm

The more time I have to digest the squad, the more players I think of who should be in there.

George Robson: he has captained Quins and been fantastic all season.

Christian Day: he filled the hole in the Saint’s squad left by Jandre Kruger seamlessly. He has won plaudits and MOTM awards all season.

Others have mentioned the likes of Mike Brown and Alex Goode.

I realise that they can’t please everyone, but some of the selections are just so frustrating. People might argue experience in some cases, but what is the point in being experienced if the player is mediocre and keeping out a more talented alternative?

by Tom-Dick-Harry Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:08 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Armitage is a fine player but hasn't had a great year, but he does cover OC and wing so his versatility is probably what gets him in the squad. Not convinced by Brown, very solid club player but I think he's a bit slow for international rugby. I think also Armitage's experience tips the balance in his favour, he's been around the squad for two or three years now and I think in WC suads you want the players who are comfortable in this environment...

Disagree with that cause both Brown and Goode have not been given a chance and to be honest have deserved a place for the last year far more than armitage its great to have experience but he has only been around a couple of years hardly mega experience. So the question is why have between them only got 3 caps (all for Brown) yet for the last year and a half they have both been pushing for England.

If you are only going to take 2 fullbacks they need to be purpose chosen if there was a third then you can take one for extra cover elsewhere as a fullback he nowhere near Brown or Goode this year.

In every team of the season I have seen for the Aviva its has been Brown or Goode at fullback what is the point of playing for the saxons if no matter how well you play they wont pick you for the main team?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:09 pm

tooboredtowork wrote:T-m-Dick-Harry:

Agree with you regarding Armitage. I have never been a Brown fan, but even I have to admit that his form has been excellent, and far better than that of Armitage. (I suspect Armitage gets the nod because he can also cover 13).

If you only have two fullbacks in teh squad you cant really be considering one as a a serious option for a position hes never played in at international level and hasnt for a long time at club level.
He also covers wing yes, but then theres 7 other players in the squad who are wings...and thats arguably the least specialised position, and has the lowest workload ( meaning less fatigue and lower chance of injuries).

The balance of a 45 man sqaud seems wrong. Armitages inclussion at all is contentious, he hasnt showed the form of two years ago even when not injured or banned. He has issues with his tempremant.

Its really hard to justify his inclussion. Theres only been a short period of his career when he was genuinly good, and he only got his chance with England through injuries to those ahead of him in the first place. Now he has a free ticket to the world cup despite three players massively out peforming him across the season, and two of those peforming well for the saxons.

To not even include one of Brown or Goode in the squad incase Armitage is rusty or theres an injury strikes me as inexcusably bizzare, especially as theres players in the squad who seem to just be there to offer experience rather than actually be seriously in contention for a place in the WC sides.

by snoopster Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:09 pm

Forgot Armitage was in there.

I'd have had Brown or Goode ahead of him - he's not been in good form for a couple of seasons and his attitude this season has been very poor and got him in trouble.
I'd have Goode in as the back up fullback - his ability to cover fly half in an emergency and also to be a back up kicker if he plays are valuable in a 30 man squad in pressure games.

And I still just don't get why Payne was picked - he's never been good enough for international rugby and in fact has struggled with club level rugby at times. The other choices I don't agree with are at least players who have been good enough at some point though not anymore, Payne though just makes no sense.

by Rugby Uberlord Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:14 pm

Props:

Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Paul Doran-Jones no
Tim Payne (aggghhh!) no
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Steven
David Wilson no 4

Hooker:

Dylan Hartley
George Chuter (seriously????) no
Lee Mears no
Steve Thompson
Webber/ Paice 3

Second Rows:

Mouritz Botha
Louis Deacon
Courtney Lawes
Tom Palmer
Simon Shaw no 4

Flankers:

James Haskell
Hendre Fourie no
Tom Croft
Lewis Moody
Chris Robshaw
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley (What the fudge!?!) no 5

No 8:

Nick Easter
Tom Waldrom no 1

Scrum Half

Danny Care
Joe Simpson
Richard Wigglesworth no
Ben Youngs 3

Fly half

Toby Flood
Charlie Hodgson
Jonny Wilkinson 3

Centres

Rikki Flutey no
Shontayne Hape
Mike Tindall
Manu Tuilagi
Matt Banahan 4

Wings

Chris Ashton
Mark Cueto
Ugo Monye no
Charlie Sharples
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle no 4

Full back

Dellon Armitage no
Ben Foden
Brown 2

33

Shame re Johnson at 7, would've preferred Attwood instead of Botha but injured, Mears/ Chuter at hooker? No no no

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:18 pm

I understood Payne going to Australia last year.

But now we have Sheridan back fit, Stevens back from his ban, Corbs has picked up a few caps, Matt Mullan played well for the saxons, Nathan Catt was in the Saxons and in my opinion is a better option and Nick Wood has always been a better option than Payne and I don't know why Payne has always been higher in the pecking order.

by Tom-Dick-Harry Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:19 pm

Rugby Uberlord

I help you out Brown is not in the squad so you have 32 not 33

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:26 pm

So what would everyone's 30 man World Cup squad be? In my opinion, we need a first choice 22 and an extra hooker, prop, second row/back row, back row, scrum half, fly half, centre and back three player.

With the exception of Anthony Allen, the 30 players I would have picked have all made it into the training squad. So here is my 30:

Hookers: Hartley, Mears, Thompson.
Props: Cole, Corbisiero, Sheridan, Stevens.
Locks: Deacon, Lawes, Palmer.
Flankers: Croft, Fourie, Haskell, Moody, Wood.
Number 8: Easter.

Scrum-halves: Care, Simpson, Youngs.
Fly-halves: Flood, Hodgson, Wilkinson.
Centres: Banahan, Hape, Tindall, Tuilagi.
Wings: Ashton, Cueto, Simpson-Daniel.
Full-backs: Foden

by Cumbrian Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:35 pm

robbo277 wrote:So what would everyone's 30 man World Cup squad be? In my opinion, we need a first choice 22 and an extra hooker, prop, second row/back row, back row, scrum half, fly half, centre and back three player.

With the exception of Anthony Allen, the 30 players I would have picked have all made it into the training squad. So here is my 30:

Hookers: Hartley, Mears, Thompson.
Props: Cole, Corbisiero, Sheridan, Stevens.
Locks: Deacon, Lawes, Palmer.
Flankers: Croft, Fourie, Haskell, Moody, Wood.
Number 8: Easter.

Scrum-halves: Care, Simpson, Youngs.
Fly-halves: Flood, Hodgson, Wilkinson.
Centres: Banahan, Hape, Tindall, Tuilagi.
Wings: Ashton, Cueto, Simpson-Daniel.
Full-backs: Foden

You've just about nailed it for me, maybe Moody to miss out for an extra second rower.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:40 pm

nah Moody will be in the squad, he's captain. I'd make just the one change to your squad, don't think we need the five flankers, so would bring in Shaw for Fourie.

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:50 pm

I do keep flip-flopping on the balance of the squad. I was leaning towards 4 locks and 5 back row or if not 3 locks, 4 flankers and 2 number 8s, but as Attwood (my fourth lock ruled out by injury) and Crane (my second choice number eight) have both been left out, I think I'm sulking a little bit by refusing to pick Shaw, Botha or Waldrom!

Looking back over it, I probably wouldn't pick Fourie (my 5th choice flanker). I agree with Mad for Chelsea, Shaw in for Fourie.

by Rugby Uberlord Mon 20 Jun 2011, 1:53 pm

why is it after posting this I'm unable to see replies - sorry still geting used to this one...

by Adam D Mon 20 Jun 2011, 2:01 pm

Rugby Uberlord wrote:why is it after posting this I'm unable to see replies - sorry still geting used to this one...

Sometimes work firewalls cahce old pages.

Try using ctrl F5 to "hard refresh" it.

by Rugby Uberlord Mon 20 Jun 2011, 2:29 pm

ta Hobo

by MSR-Worcester Mon 20 Jun 2011, 2:44 pm

I doubt England will take 3 fly-halves so Hodgson will miss out. I would take a back row or back-three player instead.

by mpc28 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 2:49 pm

MSR-Worcester wrote:I doubt England will take 3 fly-halves so Hodgson will miss out. I would take a back row or back-three player instead.

There is no way England or any team for that matter will travel to New Zealand with only 2 outside halves, if any team does that it means that they cant afford for 1 to get injured as there will always be 2 outside halves involved in the match day squad.

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 2:56 pm

Remember in the last World Cup when Wilkinson and Barkley were injured and we ended up with Catt and Farrell sharing 10 duties? Let's say Wilko and Flood are both injured around the time of the Scotland game, but both are expected back before the quarter-final. The option is to replace one or both of them, which is a permanent replacement, or to play someone else in the squad at 10. In the whole training squad, only Flutey can really cover 10 (other than emergancy cover from back-up scrum-halves). If Hodgson misses out Flutey would have to go as a 10/12, and his form doesn't merit a call-up to the World Cup squad.

by johnpartle Mon 20 Jun 2011, 3:03 pm

Despite Johnson's comments, I suspect a couple of those players, like Worsley & Payne, are in there purely for training camp purposes. They have the sort of wily experience in dark art positions you need to best prepare your more in form players. Shame that peripheral players didn't get a chance as a result, but in reality they wouldn't have made the final cut anyway.

Agree with most comments about some lucky selections that are still likely to make the plane. I would have liked to have seen Barritt & Brown in there, but I never really expected Johnson to drop Flutey & Armitage.

Glad to see Robshaw, Tuilagi & Sharples given a shot to prove themselves. A little surprised Monye & Waldrom made it. I suspect they could be in there a little more for training camp purposes again. Waldrom is the sort of dynamic backrower the SH produce in spades and will be good prep work for our pretty much nailed on backrow group.

by ospreylian Mon 20 Jun 2011, 3:11 pm

Hobo.................Yeah, you really got 'em going now..........

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 20 Jun 2011, 3:20 pm

ospreylian wrote:Hobo.................Yeah, you really got 'em going now..........

wait till we get started on english born players in the welsh squad Wink

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 20 Jun 2011, 3:24 pm

robbo277 wrote:Remember in the last World Cup when Wilkinson and Barkley were injured and we ended up with Catt and Farrell sharing 10 duties? Let's say Wilko and Flood are both injured around the time of the Scotland game, but both are expected back before the quarter-final. The option is to replace one or both of them, which is a permanent replacement, or to play someone else in the squad at 10. In the whole training squad, only Flutey can really cover 10 (other than emergancy cover from back-up scrum-halves). If Hodgson misses out Flutey would have to go as a 10/12, and his form doesn't merit a call-up to the World Cup squad.

I suppose if Wigglesworth goes he in theory would be the back up 10.

But you cant go into a game without two recognised goal kickers in the 22. That would be insanity. So yes taking only 2 fly halves puts a lot of pressure on them to play every game ( even if its alternating as a replacement) and get no injuries.
2 Scrum halves is safer, with Foden offering cover....assuming Armitage goes so theres a specialist fullback.
Certainly Foden as the only fullback is dangerous, especialy as the only wing who covers there is cueto ..who himself is a first chocie at wing not fullback. The next best cover in the squad would be Wilko.
If its a straight choice Id take 2 SH's rather than 2 FH's or 1 FB (even if Armitage is the only option)

by Tom-Dick-Harry Mon 20 Jun 2011, 3:29 pm

If only there was a player who could play at fullback and act as emergency cover for fly-half * loud cough alex goode cough

by snoopster Mon 20 Jun 2011, 3:30 pm

I'd take Goode as the back up fullback rather than take a third fly half myself, since he can both cover that position to a half decent level and is also a decent kicker, I think that makes for a better balanced squad myself. Given the limit on squad size, I think a 3rd specialist fly half is just a luxury too far and would put too much pressure on other areas of the squad.

by ospreylian Mon 20 Jun 2011, 3:34 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
ospreylian wrote:Hobo.................Yeah, you really got 'em going now..........

wait till we get started on english born players in the welsh squad

According to the book of the "Rotweiler" Wales doesn't exist. rose

by snoopster Mon 20 Jun 2011, 3:42 pm

ospreylian wrote:According to the book of the "Rotweiler" Wales doesn't exist.

I can only admire his optimism angel

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 4:10 pm

snoopster wrote:I'd take Goode as the back up fullback rather than take a third fly half myself, since he can both cover that position to a half decent level and is also a decent kicker, I think that makes for a better balanced squad myself. Given the limit on squad size, I think a 3rd specialist fly half is just a luxury too far and would put too much pressure on other areas of the squad.

Unfortunately he's not in the training squad. I would have had Goode and Brown in the training squad and dropped Armitage and a winger. I would have dropped Flutey and a second winger and gone for Allen and either Barritt or Twelvetrees as "third choice 10" options (ie they can cover 10 competently but also play in a different position).

Thay way we could take Flood and Wilkinson and choose between Hodgson, Barritt/Twelvetrees or Alex Goode depending on how we wanted to balance the squad (as mentioned with Wigglesworth also an option to cover 10). 2 9s, 2 10s, Wigglesworth and Twelvetrees or Goode in the squad could see us well stocked for 9s and 10s, but with another option in there for 12 or 15.

With the only non-half back that can cover 10 being totally lacking in any kind of form, I'm inclined to take 3 fly-halves.

I'd much rather see Wilkinson at 12, Care on the wing or Hodgson at 15 than see Foden at 9 and Wigglesworth at 10, which is why I've gone heavy on half-backs!

by yappysnap Mon 20 Jun 2011, 4:24 pm

It's been covered by dozens before me, but i can't believe a few of these choices.

It's a real kick in the teeth to players from the Saxons like Crane, Goode and Brown and to guys who've run themselves ragged since last September that 6 vital places have been chosen on absolutely no form basis, Worsley and the others may as well have not played all season and had a rest, i bet they'd have still got in. And then to cap it off MJ goes and selects Waldrom, what's the point in putting so much Saxons time (4 seasons?) in to Crane if they then go for a bloke who can skip the whole system???

by doctor_grey Mon 20 Jun 2011, 4:42 pm

Big squad. To me, no question that some players were picked to make up the opposition and challenge to preferred/expected 30 going to NZ. These would be players mentioned already such as Payne, Worsley, Chuter, and so on.

I do not like Waldrom being in the squad. And I am really surprised Flutey is in the squad ahead of Allen or Barritt. Also would like to see other cover at 15. Abendanon would have been an OK choice as long as he doesn't have to go against any Tuilagis.

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 20 Jun 2011, 4:46 pm

What's the score with selecting straight from the Saxons? Or does the 30 man squad have to come from the training squad?

by snoopster Mon 20 Jun 2011, 4:51 pm

Carpe Diem wrote:What's the score with selecting straight from the Saxons? Or does the 30 man squad have to come from the training squad?

I don't think there is any restriction on adding to the squad at any time until after the final 30 has been submitted to the IRB - Crane and Attwood could just go straight into the 30 without being part of the training squad, it would just seem a bit odd to plan on doing that and so have them spend less time with the other players who will make up the squad so this training squad does seem likely to be the pool of players where they opt to pick from.

by snoopster Mon 20 Jun 2011, 4:53 pm

robbo277 wrote:Unfortunately he's not in the training squad. I would have had Goode and Brown in the training squad and dropped Armitage and a winger. I would have dropped Flutey and a second winger and gone for Allen and either Barritt or Twelvetrees as "third choice 10" options (ie they can cover 10 competently but also play in a different position).

Thay way we could take Flood and Wilkinson and choose between Hodgson, Barritt/Twelvetrees or Alex Goode depending on how we wanted to balance the squad (as mentioned with Wigglesworth also an option to cover 10). 2 9s, 2 10s, Wigglesworth and Twelvetrees or Goode in the squad could see us well stocked for 9s and 10s, but with another option in there for 12 or 15.

With the only non-half back that can cover 10 being totally lacking in any kind of form, I'm inclined to take 3 fly-halves.

I'd much rather see Wilkinson at 12, Care on the wing or Hodgson at 15 than see Foden at 9 and Wigglesworth at 10, which is why I've gone heavy on half-backs!

Yes, I'm still indulging in fantasy training squad and so thinking in terms of what I'd do and not what has been done.

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 20 Jun 2011, 4:54 pm

snoopster wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:What's the score with selecting straight from the Saxons? Or does the 30 man squad have to come from the training squad?

I don't think there is any restriction on adding to the squad at any time until after the final 30 has been submitted to the IRB - Crane and Attwood could just go straight into the 30 without being part of the training squad, it would just seem a bit odd to plan on doing that and so have them spend less time with the other players who will make up the squad so this training squad does seem likely to be the pool of players where they opt to pick from.

Thanks Snoopster, was just trying to find a small straw to cling to!

" A center, a centre, my Kingdom for a centre!" apologies to W. Shakespeare.

by snoopster Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:00 pm

Carpe Diem wrote:Thanks Snoopster, was just trying to find a small straw to cling to!

" A center, a centre, my Kingdom for a centre!" apologies to W. Shakespeare.

Yes, sadly I think we're left relying on Allen or Barritt making it in as an injury replacement... much as I'm against wishing an injury on a player, something not very painful that would put Flutey and/ or Hape out of the World Cup has the potential to make me a very happy man.

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:11 pm

Ah, ok. Unfortunately though I think the reality is that the 30 will come from here, and if I tied a hand behind my back and forced me to pick from that lot I would go for 3 out and out fly-halves.

As you said, it does seem weird to have a training squad then go completely left-field and pick someone else entirely, but hopefully Johnson's just trying to throw people off the scent. He'd do that, right?

by TheGreyGhost Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:15 pm

Will they play under the St George cross? or the flag of the united nations?

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:15 pm

In the world cup most of the "backup" players (as in players who'll only get a game due to injuries) will be experienced players, not younger ones. You'll want guys who can slip straight in and are used to training with the squad. On top of that you'll want some expereinced campaigners in the training squad. Centres is the only area I'm a bit doubtful over.

But don't mind until the 30 are picked.

edit: Ghost, it'll be St. George's Cross

by Guest Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:18 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Will they play under the St George cross? or the flag of the united nations?

Hobo, if you build it, they will come. Happy now? Wink

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:21 pm

To be fair to GG, I think he would have been here anyway, even without Hobo's more light-hearted jibes!

by Adam D Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:22 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:Will they play under the St George cross? or the flag of the united nations?

Hobo, if you build it, they will come. Happy now?

What did I do!

I think my comments were misconstrued earlier. I have no problems with it, I was just pointing it out. I do have a problem with Manu being picked but that is more to do with the punch up and lack of punishment.

Nationality should be about who you feel you are. I was born in Spain to Welsh parents but lived there for less than 6 months. I also lived in England and France for 4 years but have always considered myself Welsh. I grew up in Wales (from 8 onwards) and would never turn my back on my nationality as I AM WELSH (although born in Spain).

Country of birth is irrelevant - its who you are on the inside. hence I have no problems with people playing for somewhere other than their birth country.

by Knowsit17 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:28 pm

No less than 7 poachees either way:

Mouritz Botha
Hendre Fourie
Dylan Hartley
Thomas Waldrom
Riki Flutey
Shontayne Hape
Manusamoa Tuilagi

Unless I'm missing something and some among those (English) names are qualified through parentage as well as residency. I haven't included Stevens and Doran-Jones for this reason.

Anybody know what odds I can get on the entire list making the 22?

by snoopster Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:32 pm

Hartley - English mother
Waldrom - English grandmother (though he only found out about her several months after declaring he planned to qualify through residency)

and I'm going to ignore Hobo's repeated attempts to bring up Manu's ban. He's clearly a WUM Wink

by robbo277 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:36 pm

Are they "poachees"? Or just residency qualified players? I don't think "poached" players come to Bedford or Rotherham, and I don't think you can say we were poaching 14 year olds who moved over with family. Waldrom has an English grandmother.

Which leaves Flutey and Hape and Hape came over here to play league, so you can't really say the RFU poached him, unless you are saying he was poached from League. Then you may as well put Chris Ashton on the list and are now getting into a completely different debate.

by doctor_grey Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:42 pm

There is some interesting cvover here. Lawes can cover at either flanker spot. Croft can cover at second row. So there is a good mix there.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:43 pm

Crane being omitted for Waldrom is particularly interesting given that Leicester at the end of the season chose to prefer Crane ahead of Waldrom for the big games. Although Waldrom was consistently good all season, Crane would have been the form pick in my view.

There's always a balance to be struck in selection, so the likes of Payne, Shaw and Worsley all seem to be picked on experience, and perhaps MJ doesn't want to punish them too much for the slump at Wasps generally (although they each played a role in that).

As I said above, I think MJ is missing a trick with some of these picks. I'd have picked Mullan, Paice, Johnson and Crane ahead of Payne, Chuter, Worsley and Waldrom. I may be losing a lot of experience, but in terms of form and ability (and age, although not strictly relevant), I think England would be better placed.

If Attwood is injured, then I can agree with Botha. That's a merit pick.

by Knowsit17 Mon 20 Jun 2011, 5:51 pm

Didn't Hape play for NZ in League?

Through parentage I agree Hartley can be ticked off the list, Waldrom makes the very limit though I do hesitate and still think the term poachee or import applies easily through him being a born-and-bred product of the NZ system.

Which is basically how I applied the term to many of the list, those who were first developed by non-English structures. Surely then I would be correct in saying that they were "imported"?

Though I agree, for that reason Tuilagi can be removed from the list also.

by johnpartle Mon 20 Jun 2011, 6:09 pm

Crane was always unlikely to make the list because he is a specialist 8 and so is Easter. With the 30 man squad comprising of 6 backrowers, you need one of your 8 options to offer good cover for the flank as well.

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