Ireland Team for 1st France Test

by MBTGOG Thu 11 Aug 2011, 10:05 am

First topic message reminder :

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/ Leinster)
14 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
13 - Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster)
12 - Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/ Ulster)
11 - Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/ Leinster)
10 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
9 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Leo Cullen (Blackrock College/Leinster) Captain
6 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Replacements:
16 - Jerry Flannery (Shannon/ Munster)
17 - Tony Buckley (Sale Sharks)
18 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
19 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
20 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/ Munster)
21 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
22 - Felix Jones (Shannon/ Munster)

by C'mon You Irish Thu 11 Aug 2011, 11:49 am

Guys why so much hate towards me every thread i make is a hit and causes debate i should be thanked for helping keep this forum active etc

by greybeard Thu 11 Aug 2011, 11:57 am

Just to remind everyone the 'foe' button is now working.

Anyway, is this going to be a completely different 15 from last week?

I would keep Cullen and maybe Leamy as starters from the pack but that's about it. Buckley will probably be in the mix after Court & Horan were released to the provinces, probably as the one prop on the bench. Pity we can't have 23 man squads, though.

I'd give Kearny more game time, but not leave him on pitch for the whole game. Wallace for the full 80, maybe the last 20 minutes at out half just to see.

Flannery on the bench again, along with Ryan, McFadden, Murray and maybe Duffy seeing as Geordan Murphy was recently playing with Leicester.

by **rodders** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 11:58 am

Thomond wrote:You get pleased easily,Irish. Rodders,no point in moving Trimble over now. Earls maybe as he has been moved around the backline for most of his career but Trimble has established some stability on the wing.

Thomond I don't buy that as a valid argument. It took Trimble a while to adjust to the wing because he was never a winger, always a centre. Moving back to the centre would not be the trauma you think it would I mean he's played there his whole life up to a few seasons ago.

Look at Rougerie and Nonu. The role of the centre is not the same as it was a few years ago and the emphasis for a 12 now is to break the line and offload and 1st 5/8th footballing 12's like Giteau are much less effective.

Trimble, Downey and Horgan are the only players with the skill set we need at 12. Well actually BOD could too but he can't play 13 at the same time.

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 11:59 am

I think because you have poor grammar and a very exaggerated view of Ireland's capabilities people either assume you're a WUM or... possibly not particularly insightful into the matters being discussed?

Maybe that's unfair, but I'm just trying to answer your question honestly.

by MMC Thu 11 Aug 2011, 11:59 am

roddersm wrote:
C'mon You Irish wrote:Trimble alongside BOD would be Orgasmic

Great minds think alike....oh wait

Ahem...

MBTGOG wrote:No encouragement guys and you know what I'm referring to.

by WillyGilly Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:02 pm

Markatron 2011.

Imagine my surprise when I stumble on here and see there's already 2 pages, only to discover the team ain't even out yet.

Hoping we put out a decent side. Please no TOL. Just don't.

by MBTGOG Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:03 pm

roddersm wrote:
Thomond wrote:You get pleased easily,Irish. Rodders,no point in moving Trimble over now. Earls maybe as he has been moved around the backline for most of his career but Trimble has established some stability on the wing.

Thomond I don't buy that as a valid argument. It took Trimble a while to adjust to the wing because he was never a winger, always a centre. Moving back to the centre would not be the trauma you think it would I mean he's played there his whole life up to a few seasons ago.

Look at Rougerie and Nonu. The role of the centre is not the same as it was a few years ago and the emphasis for a 12 now is to break the line and offload and 1st 5/8th footballing 12's like Giteau are much less effective.

Trimble, Downey and Horgan are the only players with the skill set we need at 12. Well actually BOD could too but he can't play 13 at the same time.

Truthfully though, it took quite a while for Nonu to become a top quality centre. And Rougerie had plenty of time immediately prior to be selected there with France playing at centre with Clermont. Also, I have never thought that Trimble's offloading skills to be up to the level for playing centre.

by **rodders** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:07 pm

MBTGOG wrote: Also, I have never thought that Trimble's offloading skills to be up to the level for playing centre.

Maybe a fair point 5 seasons ago but this is the area of his game that has improved the most. D'arcy isn't exactly the best in this area either and at least Trimble would get us moving forward.

Offloading ability certainly couldn't be used against Horgan anyway.

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:07 pm

Nonu, I'm so sick of Nonu being put forward as an argument. Currently- after a lot of hard work on his game- Nonu can pass very well, he can offload the ball very well, he can kick. He is a very skilled footballer as well as a powerhouse. He is not just a powerhouse.

I think it's fantastic for any centre to be able to smash through defences, to be able to commit several defenders, to be big and physical. But that doesn't mean that they don't need to be able to offload and pass to a high standard. If they are just bosh merchants they can be nullified fairly easily. Look at how even two smaller centres nullified Morrison at the weekend.

Every centre at test level needs to be able to pass well and offload well in tight spaces with not much time regardless of their style of play.

by MBTGOG Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:10 pm

roddersm wrote:
MBTGOG wrote: Also, I have never thought that Trimble's offloading skills to be up to the level for playing centre.

Maybe a fair point 5 seasons ago but this is the area of his game that has improved the most. D'arcy isn't exactly the best in this area either and at least Trimble would get us moving forward.

Offloading ability certainly couldn't be used against Horgan anyway.

Being able to offload from the wing is different to the cramped spaces of inside centre.

by C'mon You Irish Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:12 pm

TBH i just want anyone other than Darcy he is rubbish and has been for a good 3 years for us and the only reason he is not shown up more is because he has beside him the best player in the world in BOD

by caoimhincentre Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:16 pm

C'mon You Irish wrote:TBH i just want anyone other than Darcy he is rubbish and has been for a good 3 years for us and the only reason he is not shown up more is because he has beside him the best player in the world in BOD

He's been bad since 08 has he?

So over the past 3 years he has been injured for one and has won two HC.

Get rid of him quickly

by **rodders** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:17 pm

MBTGOG wrote:
roddersm wrote:
MBTGOG wrote: Also, I have never thought that Trimble's offloading skills to be up to the level for playing centre.

Maybe a fair point 5 seasons ago but this is the area of his game that has improved the most. D'arcy isn't exactly the best in this area either and at least Trimble would get us moving forward.

Offloading ability certainly couldn't be used against Horgan anyway.

Being able to offload from the wing is different to the cramped spaces of inside centre.

Passing the ball is passing the ball. If anything it is Trimbles short passing game in tight spaces is his best attribute.

The argument about Trimble's offloading game would hold more weight if it wasn't for the fact that BOD can only pass in one direction and D'arcy barely passes at all.

I wish Irish fans would be more willing to give players a chance to prove what they can do rather than just presume what a player can't do because there is little evidence for it furious

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:18 pm

Ah now, everyone will admit that Darcy is not the player he was since he broke his arm against Italy.

He rarely offloads out of the tackle, he takes the wrong option (go into contact and not pass) quite often.
He isn't as good in contact as he was and making yards. When he does make yards he isn't great at getting the ball back very quickly.

by Artful_Dodger Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:23 pm

Bizarre he doesnt seem to realise that every Irish fan on the forum knows he isnt Irish.....

by greybeard Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:24 pm

Can we all please stop quoting him, it's rendering my 'foe' list useless Cool

by Boyne Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:26 pm

Is there a live link to the team announcement? Cant see it up on irishrugby........

by Mickado Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:26 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ah now, everyone will admit that Darcy is not the player he was since he broke his arm against Italy.

He rarely offloads out of the tackle, he takes the wrong option (go into contact and not pass) quite often.
He isn't as good in contact as he was and making yards. When he does make yards he isn't great at getting the ball back very quickly.

Cool the jets there. Darcy has been playing very well for Leinster this season.
Part of the blame for Ireland’s mostly uninspired back play must be laid at Alan Gaffney’s doorstep.

by C'mon You Irish Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:27 pm

caoimhincentre wrote:
C'mon You Irish wrote:TBH i just want anyone other than Darcy he is rubbish and has been for a good 3 years for us and the only reason he is not shown up more is because he has beside him the best player in the world in BOD

He's been bad since 08 has he?

So over the past 3 years he has been injured for one and has won two HC.

Get rid of him quickly

Seriously wask up already Darcy is living off reputation alone his performances for at least 2 years now for IRELAND esp have been extremely bad and would not even warrant a place in the squad

What really finished me with Darcy was when he was RAN over by Roughirie (sp) like come on

I dont care how good he use to be he aint playing no where near that level now and should be dropped

by C'mon You Irish Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:28 pm

Boyne wrote:
C'mon You Irish wrote:Hopefully Darcy stays injured for the Fremch matches i really dont want to see him being ran over by Roughire(Sp) again

Shouldn't you be out rioting or something?

Yeah i got myself a free football the other day thank you very much

by Boyne Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:29 pm

Oh dear God the literacy...

by C'mon You Irish Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:30 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Bizarre he doesnt seem to realise that every Irish fan on the forum knows he isnt Irish.....

You think i care what people on an internet forum think lol im just here to give my honest views on our boys

by **rodders** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:32 pm

Mickado wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ah now, everyone will admit that Darcy is not the player he was since he broke his arm against Italy.

He rarely offloads out of the tackle, he takes the wrong option (go into contact and not pass) quite often.
He isn't as good in contact as he was and making yards. When he does make yards he isn't great at getting the ball back very quickly.

Cool the jets there. Darcy has been playing very well for Leinster this season.
Part of the blame for Ireland’s mostly uninspired back play must be laid at Alan Gaffney’s doorstep.

Has he really though Mick? I have to say I haven't seen much impressive from him this season at all. Very little linebreaks or variety in his game. Even when he won MOTM against Argentina in the autumn I thought it was a pretty average performance from him.

I'm with Pete, pretty much everything D'arcy did well, which made him a top player, he doesn't do nearly as well.

by MMC Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:33 pm

I agree that Roughire is an incredible player. His status is such that some people don't even believe he exists. Greatest trick he ever pulled apparently... Whistle

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:34 pm

roddersm wrote:I wish Irish fans would be more willing to give players a chance to prove what they can do rather than just presume what a player can't do because there is little evidence for it

My opinion on Trimble has been formed by watching pretty much every game he's played for Ulster and Ireland, to be fair. When he was playing at centre I wanted him to play a bit more on the wing, to work on his game out there, because he had become very ineffective at centre. Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesn't mean it's based on presumptions of what a player can and can't do.

And I've always been a critic of D'Arcy for his love of contact when the pass is on.

by MBTGOG Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:36 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Bizarre he doesnt seem to realise that every Irish fan on the forum knows he isnt Irish.....

If you don't think he is, then fine. But leave it at that.

by Mickado Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:37 pm

Don’t ask me to start reeming off stats now, I don’t keep them to hand and I’ve recently been to Amsterdam, so the old memory is a bit hazy. But there were a few high profile games in the HC where I thought he was excellent. Stepping and offloading are not gone from his skillset yet lads. He’s still got a lot to offer.

Not saying he’s a nailed on Irish starter, and I’m all for finding as many viable options for him to cover injury. But I do feel that with everyone fit he’s still the best man for the job.

by MBTGOG Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:38 pm

roddersm wrote:
MBTGOG wrote:
roddersm wrote:
MBTGOG wrote: Also, I have never thought that Trimble's offloading skills to be up to the level for playing centre.

Maybe a fair point 5 seasons ago but this is the area of his game that has improved the most. D'arcy isn't exactly the best in this area either and at least Trimble would get us moving forward.

Offloading ability certainly couldn't be used against Horgan anyway.

Being able to offload from the wing is different to the cramped spaces of inside centre.

Passing the ball is passing the ball. If anything it is Trimbles short passing game in tight spaces is his best attribute.

The argument about Trimble's offloading game would hold more weight if it wasn't for the fact that BOD can only pass in one direction and D'arcy barely passes at all.

I wish Irish fans would be more willing to give players a chance to prove what they can do rather than just presume what a player can't do because there is little evidence for it

Nope, there are many different types of passing and different players excel at the different types.

Anyway, do you notice it is Trimble I am disagreeing with you about and not Downey?

by C'mon You Irish Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:39 pm

Peeps i hate to brake it to you but Darcy is as useful as a used condom out there you might as well have Hayes playing in his postion at least he wont be ran over by an opponent

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:39 pm

Mickado wrote:Not saying he’s a nailed on Irish starter, and I’m all for finding as many viable options for him to cover injury. But I do feel that with everyone fit he’s still the best man for the job.

I feel he is too. And I'm really glad we're not giving gametime to Downey!

by **rodders** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:40 pm

Notch wrote:
My opinion on Trimble has been formed by watching pretty much every game he's played for Ulster and Ireland, to be fair. When he was playing at centre I wanted him to play a bit more on the wing, to work on his game out there, because he had become very ineffective at centre. Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesn't mean it's based on presumptions of what a player can and can't do.

And I've always been a critic of D'Arcy for his love of contact when the pass is on.

OK Notch how many times have you watched him play 12 since the ELV changes to deduce that he a hasn't got the skills to play there?

by Thomond Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:40 pm

Rodders,have you not fromed an opinion on O'Leary on the basis of this. You say he kicks a lot when he hasn't and his pass is getting better. D'Arcy has been decent this year,some very good games mixed with some awful games,he probably deserves to start at the moment.

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:41 pm

C'mon You Irish wrote:Peeps i hate to brake it to you but Darcy is as useful as a used condom out there you might as well have Hayes playing in his postion at least he wont be ran over by an opponent

Is it really necessary to throw in that kind of metaphor? Rolling Eyes

I'd say any outside back worth their salt would be fairly confident about going around Hayes wherever he plays.

by C'mon You Irish Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:43 pm

I hope POC and Cullen are given some game time togther although DOC has improved his performances for us in the last couple of games esp in the english game i still think Cullen is the better player

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:46 pm

roddersm wrote:
Notch wrote:
My opinion on Trimble has been formed by watching pretty much every game he's played for Ulster and Ireland, to be fair. When he was playing at centre I wanted him to play a bit more on the wing, to work on his game out there, because he had become very ineffective at centre. Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesn't mean it's based on presumptions of what a player can and can't do.

And I've always been a critic of D'Arcy for his love of contact when the pass is on.

OK Notch how many times have you watched him play 12 since the ELV changes to deduce that he a hasn't got the skills to play there?

Most of the ELV changes were rejected. You're talking about trends in the game that just have to do with the zeitgeist or changes in the interpretation of the breakdown area not rule changes per se. Yes, the game has changed a little bit in the past few years and yes he's worked on his passing and offloading; but as Munsty says, in the context of the wing it's very different.

My argument is his style of play is most suited to the wing. I've made the point that what he does very well is come off his wing and pick lines off the centres. This is a good way of using a strike runner without limiting the attacking potential of the side by putting him in the centres.

If he was to play anywhere in the centres, it would not be at 12. He's simply lacking in the skills to play there.

Can we leave it here please? Just agree to disagree? Broken Record

by MMC Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:46 pm

MBT,

Is there a kind of Sin Bin facility available to the mods? Jus' sayin'....

by **rodders** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:47 pm

Thomond wrote:Rodders,have you not fromed an opinion on O'Leary on the basis of this. You say he kicks a lot when he hasn't and his pass is getting better. D'Arcy has been decent this year,some very good games mixed with some awful games,he probably deserves to start at the moment.

My opinion of O'Leary is based on watching him play 9 on numerous occaisions. The opinions on Trimble are not based on him playing 12 but presuming he can't because of how he plays in another position and things he has done or not done in the past.

I haven't seen D'arcy deliver a perfromance this season that was any better than Wallace did against Scotland. I don't think either will be good enough to trouble the top teams and both are making up the numbers.

Trimble might fumble the odd ball but at least he'll commit and take out defenders and create a bit of space for his outside men. I'm not saying it's the solution but I'm disappointed that people are so keen to dismiss the idea without giving it a fair chance.

by MBTGOG Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:50 pm

MMC,

PM for you.

by Thomond Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:54 pm

Trimble looks for contact as much as anyone out there,even though he has decent hands. I think his game is more suited to the wing and it's not like we're short of centre for the WC.

by **rodders** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:56 pm

Notch wrote:Most of the ELV changes were rejected. You're talking about trends in the game that just have to do with the zeitgeist or changes in the interpretation of the breakdown area not rule changes per se.

No I am talking about specific changes to the rules most specifically the fact that the backs now stand 5 metres behind the hindmost foot of the scrum. This means there is much less emphasis on a footballing 12 who can ship the ball wide and much more emphasis on 12's who can run hard and direct like Jamie Roberts.

The interperation changes at the breakdown break down mean you can then recycle quickly. Nearly every other side is utilising these changes to their advantage except us.

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:58 pm

But all of those 12s can pass and offload to a high standard. Oh God, what am I doing... Broken Record

Can we just stop now? We can say the same things again and again for the next few hours but I really don't want to.

by greybeard Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:59 pm

Notch wrote:Can we just stop now? We can say the same things again and again for the next few hours but I really don't want to.

And we haven't even seen the team yet Hug

by MMC Thu 11 Aug 2011, 12:59 pm

roddersm wrote:...there is much less emphasis on a footballing 12 who can ship the ball wide and much more emphasis on 12's who can run hard and direct like Jamie Roberts.

The interperation changes at the breakdown break down mean you can then recycle quickly. Nearly every other side is utilising these changes to their advantage except us.

I think that's a fair point. I think it's no harm in having options either though. As in, one player who can bash it up the middle and another who can distribute.

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 1:00 pm

If Trimble is named at 12 in a few minutes, this thread is going to go feicing nuts laughing

by Thomond Thu 11 Aug 2011, 1:00 pm

It's better than Paddy Wallace...

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 1:03 pm

8 changes.

Cian Healy, Rory Best and Mike Ross into the front row, O'Callaghan into lock, Ryan and O'Brien on the flanks. Reddan and O'Gara into the side, Earls at centre the only change to the outside backs.

by greybeard Thu 11 Aug 2011, 1:04 pm

This thread is entirely capable of going nucking futs regardless of the team!

by valjester Thu 11 Aug 2011, 1:05 pm

Notch wrote:8 changes.

Cian Healy, Rory Best and Mike Ross into the front row, O'Callaghan into lock, Ryan and O'Brien on the flanks. Reddan and O'Gara into the side, Earls at centre the only change to the outside backs.

It looks like Ryan is on the plane.

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 1:05 pm

Thomond wrote:It's better than Paddy Wallace...

Paddy Wallace does retain his place. I imagine he'll be dropped after this regardless of whether he plays brilliantly, abysmally or anywhere in between. He needs to get gametime at 10 so he should play there versus Connacht.

by **Notch** Thu 11 Aug 2011, 1:05 pm

valjester wrote:
Notch wrote:8 changes.

Cian Healy, Rory Best and Mike Ross into the front row, O'Callaghan into lock, Ryan and O'Brien on the flanks. Reddan and O'Gara into the side, Earls at centre the only change to the outside backs.

It looks like Ryan is on the plane.

Agreed.

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