Thank you, James Hook

First topic message reminder :

Thanks. That's two matches we've lost because of your goalkicking.

NOTE: I know that's harsh and perhaps not entirely accurate; but I don't care. This is a place for debate, isn't it?

Taff its not about knocking either for their past performances but looking forward now. Wellies isnt going to get back into the squad after the world cup. Hook also could find himself sidelined (certainly for the next Oz game) so we have to think about the other options.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Taff its not about knocking either for their past performances but looking forward now. Wellies isnt going to get back into the squad after the world cup. Hook also could find himself sidelined (certainly for the next Oz game) so we have to think about the other options.

Tycroes,look at the thread title.Shocking!
Priestland,Tovey and Morgan are the future at 10.Knocking players who put the shirt on for Wales after illustrious careers just is not right .I must confess to being really depressed that some would stoop so low.We are all disappointed but some perspective is needed.

Have to agree with Tycoes. SJ can't be picked again. I am afraid he is going out under a cloud but the fact remains, too many missed kicks by key players cost us. It is these narrow margins that change games and under pressure the kicker must deliver. There is no avoiding that fact and whilst it does not warrant disrespect to great servants such as Jones, i have little sympathy for hook who just is not a 10 and missed kicks even i could have made

On the basis that this RWC made RP at 10 then his stand in needs to be Tovey or Morgan

SJ is injured. You could see it today. And as much as I love him he is spent. Gold watch time. Hook? Silver bullet I'm afraid.

Com'on lets get real Hook has a long future with Wales,
you can hardly blame him for not being constantly selected at 10.

Just be happy lads we got to the semis,look back 4 years ago when Australia humbled us in the 2007 world cup so did Fiji,

Wales have improved tremendously and are on the right path,still more hard work to do but on the right path!

You don't become world beaters over night.

I think if we aspire to be a top three side we have to brutal in our assessment of the RWC.

Our place kicking and from hand in the last two games has been poor. NJ whatever hes doing needs looking at. Tovey, Priestland and Biggar/Morgan now know for certain place kicking is key to their selection.

The future is very good 2015 we could go one further but only if we start beating SH sides it starts in Cardiff for Shanes swansong

.

Of course view you are right, but analysis of our failure is part of that. And my only real concern is that we alwyas come up with the same answer; closing out the big games. SA lose by 1 pt, France lose by 1 pt, Aus lose by 3 pts!. I can't recall how many points we missed in the SA game but i think it was 14 v France and 6 or 9 v Aus.
I remember Du beer in 99 putting England away with drop goals. In addition to Spala which was genius, we need a metronomic kicker.

17 vs France, 9 vs Oz 9 vs SA Gatts

It will come ,Priestland is clearly our 10 and he has only had a hand full of caps so he will improve,
Yes its disappointing to lose by such small margins like our last 4 or 5 games against South Africa have all ended with in a score,

For me the elephant in the room is our props and hooker "Gethin aside" don't carry enough ball and Lydiate needs to carry the ball more,at speed and tempo

100% success rate against fiji though

TycroesOsprey wrote:17 vs France, 9 vs Oz 9 vs SA Gatts

ffs that says it all, that is the reason we aren't in the final 35 points from the boot!!

losing combined margin 5 points,
Missed kicks at goal 35 points

I can't help but feel as the competition went on and injuries started having an impact we looked like the side from the 6 nations, blind side attack all the time, poor decision making etc - i never thought i would say it but we really missed priestland - it's stange how some players seem to blossom in the international environment - +'s faletau really impressed, warbs despite a stupid tackle is a class act and chateris looked excellent - long may it continue

viewtothegym wrote:losing combined margin 5 points,
Missed kicks at goal 35 points

View, the teams we played missed kicks as well, anyone have the figures? had a few beers and can't work it out

I dont think there is too much wrong with our props Adam doesnt carry as much as Gethin, but he is vital for us.

We need mitchell to really learn his trade in the Jeff league and be real competition for Adam over the next four years but at loosehead Bevvington is a real gem and his scrummaging improves every game.

Who replaces Shane is a conundrum.

Where does Ben Morgan fit in is another as Faletau was my player of the tournament but Morgan if he opts for Wales could be massive.

Ian Evans coming back for the Ospreys is good competition for the other three who will be around for a few years yet

Tipuric Turnbull and Mcusker really as competition for Sam and Dan

Phillips will be around a couple of years yet but Brynmors boy is quality and tehre is good depth at the regions.

Priestland has the shirt to lose but Tovey and Biggar will be chasing him

Full back seems to have been solved for us.

centres look good but have competition with Gav, scott williams, Beck all there or thereabouts.

I think Hook will be overlooked for the Aus game in a few weeks and tehn depending on his form in France he may get called up as a utility player.

We just need to start closing these games out once we win one a flood will follow its a monkey and we need to get it off our backs soon. That starts with nailing our kicks.

French nailed all their kicks I think,

Ozzies only missed one kick today didnt they?

cant remember SA but they had Steyne kicking then for fun so I dont think he missed many.

South Africa didn't miss any Aus missed one and France missed one,

viewtothegym wrote:South Africa didn't miss any Aus missed one and France missed one,

Hugely dissapointing if thats right, i know at the times we were missing these kicks if we just had a kicker who could alomst guarantee the points, no such fears with jones and hook 6 months ago, big game pressure? stange how the seasoned internationals bottle it!

so just to give it some perspective and illustrate the significance of missing our kicks even if we had nailed only 50% of our missed kicks and they had got all of theirs the scores would have been

Wales 19- SA 17
France 12 - Wales 15
Wales 22 - Aus 24

even at 50% - thats not acceptable at international level

Stop it now Gatts your going to make me cry

Well lets hope we see Priestland Tovey et al step up and produce flawless kicking displays. Of course you know who holds the record for the most successful kicks in one match with 14 out of 14?

The only problem with Tovey and Morgan is their defence is questionable, we will have to see how both players get on this season, as Morgan is only now starting to get proper game time at the Ospreys

TycroesOsprey wrote:Well lets hope we see Priestland Tovey et al step up and produce flawless kicking displays. Of course you know who holds the record for the most successful kicks in one match with 14 out of 14?

Ryan Giggs?

kicking % on scrum 5 tonight, jones 87% hook 53%

'view' says you cant blame hook for not being picked at 10, hang on ,
this is kicking, nothing to do with the rest of the 10 game.

Hook has taken kicks all his career, so the fact he wasnt regular 10 is nothing to do with it.

Its a bit rich to say you would have beaten the Aussies if you have kicked you kicks, the Aussies were by far the better team missed 3 kicks thmselves and 1 of your tries came from the biggest forward pass seen in this world cup!!!

who said we would?

and Oz missed 3? 3 points maybe not 3 kicks.

Com'on lets get real Hook has a long future with Wales,
you can hardly blame him for not being constantly selected at 10.

Of course I can, he has no game management, closes down space for the threequarters and lacks tactical awareness.

Are you Andy Howell in disguise? That man wouldn't know an outside half he bit him on the man sausage.

gavstar wrote:kicking % on scrum 5 tonight, jones 87% hook 53%

'view' says you cant blame hook for not being picked at 10, hang on ,
this is kicking, nothing to do with the rest of the 10 game.

Hook has taken kicks all his career, so the fact he wasnt regular 10 is nothing to do with it.

Coupla points regarding the above -

A) when Hook was picked in the centre, as he was mostly for the past two years, he did not have kicking duties either at the O's or for Wales. He probably did kick in training, but that is very different from in matches. Not a excuse, just an observation.

B) Not all kicks are equal. Jones had 100% versus Fiji. Such was our superiority in that game, that most were bang in front of the posts, with zero pressure.

Hook is a confidence player, and his kicking crumbled badly in these last two games. He kicked well in the 6N and exceptionally well against England in the second warm-up. So this was unusual (though not unprecedented). He wasn't alone in this WC. Wilkinson also had a couple of mares with the boot.

Surprised at the anti-Hook bile here. He has had several MoM performances vs. England under his belt and was our best back in the last 6N. Agreed he was way off form in this WC, no doubt about that, but he will bounce back.

Incidentally, what was Priestland's kicking ratio vs Ireland? 33%? Fortunately we won that game, so he couldn't be accused of losing it single-handedly.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Tycroes,look at the thread title.Shocking!

I presume you read past the title and saw the note at the end of the article? I was looking to start a debate. It looks like it worked, too.

Hook just does these weird things that put his team under a lot of preassure, I remember one incident in yesterdays game where we won the ball on our try line and instead of clearing the line, Hook tries to run it, sees the aussie defenders so gives a little short pass to JD2, who is immediately tackled by a couple of aussies and nearly turned over.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Tycroes,look at the thread title.Shocking!

I presume you read past the title and saw the note at the end of the article? I was looking to start a debate. It looks like it worked, too.

So the end justifies the means?I have seen plenty of debates under threads that have not been disparaging of worthy international players.

IronMike wrote:Hook just does these weird things that put his team under a lot of preassure, I remember one incident in yesterdays game where we won the ball on our try line and instead of clearing the line, Hook tries to run it, sees the aussie defenders so gives a little short pass to JD2, who is immediately tackled by a couple of aussies and nearly turned over.

That would have been a charge-down. He got man and ball same time, pretty much.

I don't htink Hook was that bad, he is claerly playing out of position because of injuries to Priestland and Jones.

That was by far Wales worst performance, but when you consider they went into the game without a recognised 7, tight head or 10 (only Hook thinks he is a recognised 10). Is there any suprise that Wales were so poor.

Some issues for the management to sort out here. Why did they not take a reserve 7 to the World Cup? Why wasn't Mitchell, the only other specialist 3 playing or even on the bench? If Jones was not fit enough to start, why did they not call up Tovey?

Poor end to a very good tournament by Wales.

Seagultaf, yes it was a disappointing end to an exciting competition for us. For the first time we were deservedly beaten.

As others have said, our points from the tee performance has been terrible in this WC. Hook's place kicking was way below par, but the problem extended beyond him. We had six drop goal attempts and missed the lot - 1 Shane, 1 Jones, 1 Hook, 3 Priestland.

I don't know what the answer is as these are all top professionals. Were they trying too hard, losing their cool at the moment of truth? There's a big difference between a training ground DG and one against a top six team in a crucial match.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Thanks. That's two matches we've lost because of your goalkicking.

NOTE: I know that's harsh and perhaps not entirely accurate; but I don't care. This is a place for debate, isn't it?

you could also blame the coach for picking him.

you could also blame the captain for letting him kick.

you could also blame welsh rugby on the whole for having to much ridingh on priestland- just like we could blame the kiwis for carter!

no point blaming the player we all knew he wasnt the best in the first place- just realise he isnt upto it and dont pick him again- thats not his fault- the fault is in the selection.

do us english blame johny wilko - well i dont - flood kicked us the 6n's then we decide to go back to johny in the world cups- and he missed everything! thats a selection problem, not saying that cost us the french game- because it didnt but the point remains

A

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Wales lost agaiunst SA because they werent good enough.
They lost against France because of Warburtons red card.
They lost against Aus because they werent good enough.

Basically true. Wales played at their peak, South Africa were a shambles we lost, France have never been worse, Wales never had a better chance to beat them, Wales lost. Wales made too many errors against Australia to justify a win.

Don't make a Hook a scape goat though he is very talented but in rugby some players hit peak form others lose it, you just need to use the ones playing well to give yourself the best chance of winning. I agree though Hook isn't Wales best option as a 10.

Hooks not our best option at 12 or 15 either alyn, and now not at kicking.
we missed 10 out of 17 kicks at goal so they said on tv.who missed what in which games out of interest? anyone keep a record? or is it too painfull !!

AlynDavies wrote:Don't make a Hook a scape goat though he is very talented but in rugby some players hit peak form others lose it, you just need to use the ones playing well to give yourself the best chance of winning. I agree though Hook isn't Wales best option as a 10.

Alyn
I don't know what you define as "form" but for me its playing perhaps 10 games plus in a row very well, I think Hook has been consistently inconsistent.

On a serious note what are his talents?.......... in my mind he is a superbly instinctive runner, has an eye for a gap, with a great hand-off, but are these enough in the modern game?.

Unfortunately the flip-side are his lack of skills or "talent" (particularly in a tight narrow play)

Very insular, no awareness, poor passing game, inconsistent, defensively frail, no positioning, no structure........ these are basic skills.

Now there are other players who have these basic skills the likes Carter, Biggar, Priestland, Jones are they not "talented"

Taffineastbourne wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Tycroes,look at the thread title.Shocking!

I presume you read past the title and saw the note at the end of the article? I was looking to start a debate. It looks like it worked, too.

So the end justifies the means?I have seen plenty of debates under threads that have not been disparaging of worthy international players.

You're free to post elsewhere if this thread upsets you so much.

Hook is Poopie, FACT end of. Budgie supporters should realise that we don't need petty provincial bickering to spoil our national team.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Tycroes,look at the thread title.Shocking!

I presume you read past the title and saw the note at the end of the article? I was looking to start a debate. It looks like it worked, too.

So the end justifies the means?I have seen plenty of debates under threads that have not been disparaging of worthy international players.

You're free to post elsewhere if this thread upsets you so much.

I believe that I am free to post wherever I choose,to be honest.

Of course you are. You crack on.

This is a complex issue, beyond the comprehension of the likes of flyhalfactory and many on internet blogs.

Playing the Gatland way (pick/drive/kick/chase) it doesn't matter much who is at 10. Those that regurgitate the 'getting the backline moving' or 'game awareness' nonsense ignore the fact that the other than bombing the ball down the pitch the 10 is only there to pop passes up to Roberts and North on the crash.

I'm not knocking the tactics - they were good enough, refereeing inconsistency aside, to have taken us to a RWC final - but they do rely on all our best players being on the pitch. If we're ever chasing the game and need to run the ball, Hook is the only option as a running 10. He also kicks the ball a lot further than all the other contenders.

The goal kicking is an issue, but Halfpenny should be taking them all anyway - all his kicks are arrow straight.

Casartelli wrote:If we're ever chasing the game and need to run the ball, Hook is the only option as a running 10.

This is just plain false. Priestland can make breaks. Tovey can make breaks. What's more, neither take away the space their centres need by dilly-dallying before they get the ball away.

Give James Hook the ball with a disorganised defence in front of him and he's very good. But against an organised defensive line? He's not the man to unlock it.

Give James Hook the ball with a disorganised defence in front of him and he's very good. But against an organised defensive line? He's not the man to unlock it.

Except against France and Australia when he couldn't lead an attack on a bowl of ice cream.

A bowl of ice cream in a warm room. Under lights.

You've got to love the way that some posters were adament before the French and Oz games (and even before that a very few wanted Priestland dropped for Hook) that Hook should play 10 because 'he can win you games' and 'he is our most dangerous back, but after he has 2 howlers (not just the missed kicks, lots of kickers missed but because he failed to utilise Roberts, JD2, North, took the wrong options and kicked ball away and missed tackles/dropped balls) they say "well what can you expect he's rusty and hasn't played at 10 a lot"
Fair enough thats true but if Hook was that rusty he should never have been considered to play, and should have only been used as a back up in case of injury.

Casartelli wrote:This is a complex issue, beyond the comprehension of the likes of flyhalfactory and many on internet blogs.

Playing the Gatland way (pick/drive/kick/chase) it doesn't matter much who is at 10. Those that regurgitate the 'getting the backline moving' or 'game awareness' nonsense ignore the fact that the other than bombing the ball down the pitch the 10 is only there to pop passes up to Roberts and North on the crash.

I'm not knocking the tactics - they were good enough, refereeing inconsistency aside, to have taken us to a RWC final - but they do rely on all our best players being on the pitch. If we're ever chasing the game and need to run the ball, Hook is the only option as a running 10. He also kicks the ball a lot further than all the other contenders.

The goal kicking is an issue, but Halfpenny should be taking them all anyway - all his kicks are arrow straight.

Got to admit lassy, you really do make us all smile with your oh so juvenile attempts at been a fully feldged WUM.

You are so blindly protecting your loved one that you haven't realised that Mr G's tactics have changed significantly during the WC warm-ups and into the WC itself, you definitely havent seen the bombs and long kicks out of hand, but you have seen the distribution from the set piece, ruck, maul, and going through the phases.

You spout "running 10" as if you understand what it actually it entails

Gatland had the same tactics with Priestland, and anyone who is old enough to vote would have realised that an "aware" player in such a pivotal role brought to the Welsh tactics during the warm-ups and the WC itself.

I think you need to be on the WUM register so we can all realise when you enter the grown-ups arena