England vs Wales Match thread

[Adam D]

First topic message reminder :

Use this thread during the game to discuss the incidents whilst they happen.

[GunsGerms]

This afternoon’s joint statement appears to come in response to comments made by Ireland manager Michael Kearney on Wednesday. Speaking after Ferris had been cleared, Kearney revealed that that the disciplinary panel felt that the incident did not even merit a penalty.

Both the IRB and Six Nations deny that this is the case and said today that no criticism of Barnes’ decision should be inferred.

“While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes’ decision to award a penalty,” this afternoon’s statement said.
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Penalty or not the IRB backed the ref on his decision,, I'm not even sure we need to be discussing this again it's been done to death.

Fine if you agree with the above you must surely agree north should have been penalised because his tackle if anything was more dangerous. Can't have it every way.

[Cymroglan]

leinsterbaby
You keep saying he should be penalised for the tackle but penalised for what ?
Players do not get penalised for hard tackles, North's tackle was not high or a tip tackle it was simply a good well timed hard tackle.
If there was anything wrong with the tackle it would have been the talk of the town.

[Heaf]

Isn't he simply saying in fact he doesn't think the North tackle was a penalty but applying the same criteria neither was the Ferris one ... And vice versa if the Ferris one could be judged to be a penalty then applying the same standards the North one would be eg tackled player's upper body hits the ground whilst feet held in the air?

My view is that neither were penalties unless you're the most pedantic of refs.

[Cymroglan]

Heaf he could be saying that but it's pointless comparing the two.
One was penalised by the ref who was then backed by the IRB and North's tackle did not even stop play.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Also, I'm not sure that a lot of people remember it is a penalty- the BBC feed described it as a tip into touch by North but didn't state it was illegal, neither did Moore, so maybe it's one of those things that we tacitly allow now?

The commentaters at the time just didnt see it. they were totally confused as to what had been awarded.

[Heaf]

Heaf he could be saying that but it's pointless comparing the two.
One was penalised by the ref who was then backed by the IRB and North's tackle did not even stop play.

To be honest a lot of the discussions we have about reffing decisions on here are pointless as it doesn't change anything and we all get het up about things .... But it doesn't stop us does it

I guess we're all gluttons for punishment

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Norths tackle was worse because he lifted Farrell clean off the ground before driving him back.

He didn't lift him off the ground, he knocked him off his feet. In other words, he put in a perfect tackle.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Norths tackle was worse because he lifted Farrell clean off the ground before driving him back.

He didn't lift him off the ground, he knocked him off his feet. In other words, he put in a perfect tackle.

Which caused him to be lifted and tipped.....but its that kind of driving hit that the IRB want players putting in rather than the static lift and dumps shown by Davies and Warburton. Its not that kind of tackle the law is intended to penalise.
It looked brutal.

[miteyironpaw]

The problem is that the letter of the law as written does not reflect the spirit of the law.

This came out at the Ferris review. Anyone who is tackled goes from a state perpendicular to the ground, to a state parallel to the ground. The point of tackling, after all. Depending on where the fulcrum for rotation around the X axis is, the more likely that at some point one or more feet will leave the ground and the legs may fleetingly be above the hips. The tackler is unlikely to be able to release before the player hits the ground in this sort of heavy front on hit so since the fall of both players will be broken by the ground, the tackler appears to "drive" the tacklee "into the ground".

If you look at North's tackle, then according to the exact wording, it is a apparently deserving of a yellow card.

Feet left the ground? yes, so he was lifted.
Legs above the hips? yes, briefly.
North drove him into the ground? yes, certainly. North was applying an impulse force to him as he came in contact with the ground.

Ok then, yellow card and penalty if not red card.

But anyone who saw it would agree (except perhaps his mother), that it was just a good tackle.

Again, the laws of rugby are written very poorly and open to too much interpretation.

[Biltong]

Norths tackle was worse because he lifted Farrell clean off the ground before driving him back.

He didn't lift him off the ground, he knocked him off his feet. In other words, he put in a perfect tackle.

The emphasis is where was the initial momentum of his tackle?

I can't remember the incident clearly so a link would be welcome.

In the rugby world cup final Bryan Habana did a perfect execution of a driving tackle, I showed on ethe other day where John Smit did the same on Brad Thorne. Even with the perfectly driving tackle the ball carrier can be lifted off his feet, the importance however is that with the tackler's momentum the driving force puts the ball carrier on his back, albeit hard, but not nearly as dangerous as when a player is lifted past the horizontal and dumped.

when you look at the physics of a tackle.

Driving forward in a tackle puts the momentum horizontal, where as lifting a player brings the momentum down, and that is where the danger comes from.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Biltong,

I agree thats what the intent of the laws are buit its not actually clealry stated anywhere. Indeed if it was it would probably just confuse the layman even more.

As far as Im aware although in that case Farrells legs did go slightly above horizontal its considered fine. The Welsh fabns were citing a similar tackle by an England player ( possibly Shaw) from last years fixture when Warburton was carded, that went unpenalised too. Tuilagi puts in a fair few hits like that, some of which are borderline tips.

Its a very hard law to interpret, but theres no question that the Davies one in particular was a clear deliberate lift, tip and dump with intent to harm the player. Fully deserving of the significant ban it landed him.
It was exactly the kind of tact the strict wording and regualtions intended to stamp out, rather than driving tackles that incidentaly lift a player.


Cases like the Ferrris one...well theres always going to be a massive grey hole between black and white however the laws are written.

[Biltong]

Peter, I assume the IRB is looking at the intent of the tackle, it is perhaps possible that the legs go beyond the vertical in a driving tackle, but becuase the momentum is lateral rather than down, it is interpreted as not dangerous.

[Tommy David lookalike]

Will you lot Flip off? You'll see that sort of tackle up and down the country. It was textbook. If the IRB say it was so much as a penalty offence, then we might as well give up. Jonathan Davies is right, it's still a game for men.

[LemonyVodka5]

Will you lot Flip off? You'll see that sort of tackle up and down the country. It was textbook. If the IRB say it was so much as a penalty offence, then we might as well give up. Jonathan Davies is right, it's still a game for men.

But then what about the Women's 6 Nations for example?

I'll get my cape......

....SUPER PEDANTICMAN AWAAAAAAYYYYY

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Shouldn't that be Super Pedant?

[LemonyVodka5]

Shouldn't that be Super Pedant?

I had a spare I, C, M, A, N, hanging around after a disastrous game of Cyrillic scrabble the weekend before last (no 6 Nations on you see?!) and thought Hell, why on Earth not?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

The question is then should George Norths tackle be allowed in the womens team?

[Morgannwg]

Norths tackle was worse because he lifted Farrell clean off the ground before driving him back.

He didn't lift him off the ground, he knocked him off his feet. In other words, he put in a perfect tackle.

This is just a poor comment to make (again). The tackle was legal. I can only assume this fan is bitter and vindictive due to Davies' domination of Ryan back in Round one.

[Rory_Gallagher]

I would have used the word cowardice actually, to describe what Davies did. Not dominance.

[ChequeredJersey]

Norths tackle was worse because he lifted Farrell clean off the ground before driving him back.

He didn't lift him off the ground, he knocked him off his feet. In other words, he put in a perfect tackle.

This is just a poor comment to make (again). The tackle was legal. I can only assume this fan is bitter and vindictive due to Davies' domination of Ryan back in Round one.

The tackle by North was fine. Please don't try and make what Davies did anything other than the disgrace to the sport that it was

[thebluesmancometh]

Disgrace???
Hang on a second, a disgrace is putting your finger in someones eye, a disgrace is hitting someone from behind, Davies picking up Ryan and pushing him down was dull on Davies's part, rash and a reaction to a cheap shot in his eyes, but disgrace is not the word that should be used.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Disgrace???
Hang on a second, a disgrace is putting your finger in someones eye, a disgrace is hitting someone from behind, Davies picking up Ryan and pushing him down was dull on Davies's part, rash and a reaction to a cheap shot in his eyes, but disgrace is not the word that should be used.

What would you had described it as had Ryan broken his neck? Which could have very easily happened. It was a thuggish move. I mean even if he threw a punch it wouldn't have been as dangerous as throwing a guy on his neck.

[ChequeredJersey]

Disgrace???
Hang on a second, a disgrace is putting your finger in someones eye, a disgrace is hitting someone from behind, Davies picking up Ryan and pushing him down was dull on Davies's part, rash and a reaction to a cheap shot in his eyes, but disgrace is not the word that should be used.

IMO it was far more likely to cause permanent physical harm than any hit from behind or even eye-gouge and could only have possibly have been done with the intent to cause harm to the player it was done on. He didn't push him down, he picks him up, then flips him onto his neck. The fact that he had the audacity to mouth *F*ck off" after he was YELLOW carded means I pretty much cannot understand any attempt to even remotely defend him. He could have deliberately ruined another person's life. That is inexcusable

[thebluesmancometh]

And if Adam Jones had lost both his eyeballs from the Ryan hit???

If's and but's again...

Ive had a lot worse than being lifted and driven down done to me while playing, infact until recently it was widely applauded!!!

And this term Thuggish, if your not a thug your not at the top of your game, you could do with being more aggressive! Granted if you start to change your name to Botha you've probably gone a bit too far, but lets not think the players are all roses and hold hands at half time, they want to hurt and humiliate each other, aggression is the biggest attribute you can have in this game, and sometimes it spills over.

Without excusing what Davies did, because I'm not it was dull, but I'm a pretty big guy, and if a guy my size, or even bigger tries to lift me off the ball it will not happen, he'll know I'm not going to get lifted, it bugs me why Ryan couldn't defend himself.

[Knowsit17]

It was disgraceful. If Davies had to react to a "cheap shot" he could have shoved Ryan to the ground or given him a whack on the nose but picking him up about six feet and tossing him neck first to the floor is nothing but a disgrace. Davies deserves what he got.

Not sure what people have been smoking though to think North's tackle is in the same vein, that was a perfectly legitimate hit.

[thebluesmancometh]

Chequered leave it out!!!

The south sea islanders still lift and drive regularly, it's happened 100000 times in the past and the actual serious life threatening injury rate of it is miniscule!

Both of you need to start playing a bit, if your that hyped up, and you reactr to an incident you think was a cheap shot rational thinking doesn't enter your head, a reaction is just that! Like a swinging forearm in an attempt to break Jon Thomas's nose, a finger in the eye like Dupuy's on Ferris is a whole different kettle of fish!!!

[thebluesmancometh]

I never said Davies didn't deserve a ban, I just said for me a disgracefull act deserves a lifetime ban like a gouge!!!

[ChequeredJersey]

And if Adam Jones had lost both his eyeballs from the Ryan hit???

If's and but's again...

Ive had a lot worse than being lifted and driven down done to me while playing, infact until recently it was widely applauded!!!

And this term Thuggish, if your not a thug your not at the top of your game, you could do with being more aggressive! Granted if you start to change your name to Botha you've probably gone a bit too far, but lets not think the players are all roses and hold hands at half time, they want to hurt and humiliate each other, aggression is the biggest attribute you can have in this game, and sometimes it spills over.

Without excusing what Davies did, because I'm not it was dull, but I'm a pretty big guy, and if a guy my size, or even bigger tries to lift me off the ball it will not happen, he'll know I'm not going to get lifted, it bugs me why Ryan couldn't defend himself.

What worse? I've been kicked in the head and eye-gouged and punched and raked in the face, and I've seen a team-mate kneed in the balls as hard as possible at a lineout, but I wouldn't count any of those as worse than a deliberate off the ball spear. The only thing that I've seen that is worse is a straight arm high tackle. I can't agree with you and if Parling etc had done that I would not have defended it

[ChequeredJersey]

Also the only time I was ever seriously injured in rugby was when, through nobody's fault, I had my shoulder driven into the ground. It snapped the ligaments there and I couldn't use my arm for months

[thebluesmancometh]

I AM NOT DEFENDING IT!!!

Guys really come on there has to be a brain cell here...

PS all of the above is my lineout defence, minus the gouging!
I have had all the above done to me and more and I have never lost my temper with someone as I did when I had a finger in the eye, I actually lost it!!!

[ChequeredJersey]

Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick, I just feel that it was comparable to Mealamu/Umaga on BOD or Schalk on Fitzgerald. In the heat of the moment being gouged is awful and it's pretty cowardly and plain nasty, but as soon as someone goes near my neck it makes me fighty

[thebluesmancometh]

Poor missus you have, roll over gives you a kiss on the neck and you nut the poor mare...

[Morgannwg]

Norths tackle was worse because he lifted Farrell clean off the ground before driving him back.

He didn't lift him off the ground, he knocked him off his feet. In other words, he put in a perfect tackle.

This is just a poor comment to make (again). The tackle was legal. I can only assume this fan is bitter and vindictive due to Davies' domination of Ryan back in Round one.

The tackle by North was fine. Please don't try and make what Davies did anything other than the disgrace to the sport that it was

Excuse you, did I try to make the Davies tackle anything other than it was? Could you please let us know.

The incident has been dealt with. Once again, I can only assume the said poster is still bitter about it (as well as losing) and just wants to see Welsh players cited. Poor show vindicating North like that after he had done nothing wrong.

[Morgannwg]

Sorry if the word 'domination' offended anyone, it didn't mean to. It was not cowardly but it was a bad course of action to take. Davies was rightfully punished and thankfully, Donncha Ryan was okay.

[ChequeredJersey]

Norths tackle was worse because he lifted Farrell clean off the ground before driving him back.

He didn't lift him off the ground, he knocked him off his feet. In other words, he put in a perfect tackle.

This is just a poor comment to make (again). The tackle was legal. I can only assume this fan is bitter and vindictive due to Davies' domination of Ryan back in Round one.

The tackle by North was fine. Please don't try and make what Davies did anything other than the disgrace to the sport that it was

Excuse you, did I try to make the Davies tackle anything other than it was? Could you please let us know.

The incident has been dealt with. Once again, I can only assume the said poster is still bitter about it (as well as losing) and just wants to see Welsh players cited. Poor show vindicating North like that after he had done nothing wrong.

Sorry I assumed you were from the use of the word domination

[Morgannwg]

Yeah it was said in jest. Ryan was dominated though, a big guy getting picked up that high off the ground... I had no idea for what offence the card was given for at first, but then they showed a replay. I think everyone's initial reaction then was "ouch" and "Bradley's a donuthead!"

[thebluesmancometh]

One woman in the pub caught it at the bottom of the screen in real time and screamed like she had just been touched!

People started surrounding her and asking what was wrong and she replied with;

I think Bradders just killed someone.

[Knowsit17]

Poor missus you have, roll over gives you a kiss on the neck and you nut the poor mare...

[Dontheman]

Thank feic for that because I'm supporting England today!....sorry Alyn!

Ireland 21-23 Wales

A sad day in rugby history, the Irish support the English over Wales!

Dead right me and my mate Sheelagh would always gang up on her English husband

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