What really informs our views?

Congratulations to Dan Lydiate on his award, he undoubtedly had some good matches and is a fine prospect - must be his Englishness coming through, but seriously a fine player for Wales. Of course we don't need reminding of his qualities as the commentary team on Saturday certainly made sure that we should be in no doubt about how wonderful he is. There is a certain sheep like tendency among us all to latch on to an opinion indefatigably stated numerous times to concur probably because at that moment no alternative is being presented and so we tend to take the easy route be it if you are a fellow commentator or the watching public.

How much of our political opinion is derived from "opinion" in the press and media compared to our own direct witness of events around us; very little I would wager.

So back to Mr Lydiate, yes he had a good game but for anyone actually watching the game rather then listening to the rather over-excited commentary could tell that the performance of the day belonged to the mercurial Monsieur Dusttoir, but this was lost in all the squeaks of pleasure emanating from the commentary box. It's incredible to note the amount of views aired on this board that reflect precisely those of the various pundits and commentators from the media.

The smell of chips wafts most heavily from your direction

some good points in there, if only the same posters praising Lydiate now, hadn't been already praising him before Saturdays match

Also, not sure I've come across anyone on here that hasn't recognised how brilliant Dusautoir has been for the French in this campaign, and he played another stormer on the weekend

Dusautoir is undoubtedly class. A good leader and as past performances go a sensational tackler. The AB's game in Cardiff in 2007 must be up there with the best individual displays since the game went professional.

But Lydiate definitely outworked and out-tackled him on Saturday, anyone who requires the commentary team to notice that should probably consider having their eyes tested. Lydiate brought down Dusautoir himself which resulted in the turnover and was back on his feet in a flash to deliver the pass to Priestland who passed to Cuthbert to score. That is sheer class.

Not to mention the thumpers Lydiate put in time and time again at crucial defensive moments. He was everywhere!

No chips here, as I said Lydiate played well bit IMO was not the best 6 on Saturday by a long chalk, possibly over the tourno but again I'd give that to Dusatoir but by dint of France playing so badly he was never going to win the prize.
Let's not mythologise the lad, he played well but not that well, just because some one eyed commentator wants to get the kleenex out every time he sees someone in a Welsh jersey is doesn't mean we all have to follow suit. The media love Wales at the moment but let's keep feet on the ground for the sake of the team and all our sanities or there'll be trouble ahead.

BTW does anyone have the tackle stats for the match?

Dusautoir is a 7. France do that strange thing where they swap the 6 and 7 shirt around for some reason

Even if Thierry completed more tackles, I believe that the ones Lydiate made were more crucial and game changing. Twice at least he stopped the French attack dead in their tracks, and plus obviously one of his tackles led straight to the turnover that fed the Welsh try

So how exactly did Dusautoir outshine Lydiate on Saturday?

I've already given my account as to why Lydiate deserved MOTM that day, namely the thumping tackles and the higher workrate, which against Duss is a hell of an achievement.

Also the gloss of Lydiate beating him man to man with the tackle, turnover and assist for the try.

Just watch the game again and focus on Dusatoir, he was immense. You talk about workrate but have you got the stats to back it up?

To stop the Welsh bleating that this suggestion is a an attack on their team:

Great example of this was Worsely in the England Ireland match 2009.
Everyone knows he kept England in a game through his tackling right? It was a legendary performance.
How many people noticed Rikki Flutey put in more tackles than him and was atcually the guy who shut the Irish midfield down?

Currently the Farrell hype wagon is on full steam. Noone wants to say a bad word about the lad. They barely picked up that his kicking from hand went to pot as the France game wore on, all we hear about is his nerveless performance and metronomic consitency.
Wilko as we all know won England the world cup, noone remebers he had a stinker of a game that day. Indeed the whole legend of him being a 100% kicker and game closer is built on a few early career examples, even after several years of shakey performances he was still trotted out as " the guy youd want with 5 minutes left on the clock".

I don't agree that Dussautoir outshone Lydiate but I do think Ryan Jones did.

Anyway I don't want to get bogged down on this one match - Lydite played well no matter what. It was more a general musing on the power of suggestion.

PSW - good points. I'm not arguing it happens, I just think using Lydiate is a poor example, as plenty of posters on here already thought he was putting in brilliant performances before Saturday's game is all. It isn't that lots of people have all of a sudden started saying it because of Jiffy's commentary.

rugbydreamer wrote:PSW - good points. I'm not arguing it happens, I just think using Lydiate is a poor example, as plenty of posters on here already thought he was putting in brilliant performances before Saturday's game is all. It isn't that lots of people have all of a sudden started saying it because of Jiffy's commentary.

Yep Lydiates contribution may have been a bit over egged, but he still deserves to be up there. I do believe there was some influence on the Jiffy factor and last game scenario with just how many peopel are gushing to the extent they are over him but that doesnt mena he wasnt the best player in his position and one of the best players overall in the tournament.
I guess with these things its more the casual rugby fans opinion thats more easily shaped by what they hear and read in the media headlines, but everyones going to be influenced. We do all like to think we are free willed and able to make our own minds up but its arrogant to think we arent affected by it on some level.

"Wilko as we all know won England the world cup, noone remebers he had a stinker of a game that day."

Have to disagree with this - in the NZ-Aus semi final, Mortlock trampled all over Carlos Spencer time and time again. Mortlock tried the same in the final by running at JW, and didn't once get through.

tell you one game Wilko had a stinker was the QF against Wales, England only really turned it on in the 2nd half when they brought Catt on (curse him!) People tend not to remember that though, unless they're Welsh

It's a good conundrum and a decent question to pose in all honesty - I would hazard that the OP's rugby views and knowledge base are probably formed from reading The Daily Whizzo

Dan Lydiate was excellant throughout the entire 6 nations, is the best 6 in the world and no-one comes close, he basically won the France game singlehandedly.

On the topic of informing our views, I just take whatever Jiffy says as gospel....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Great example of this was Worsely in the England Ireland match 2009.
Everyone knows he kept England in a game through his tackling right? It was a legendary performance.
How many people noticed Rikki Flutey put in more tackles than him and was atcually the guy who shut the Irish midfield down?

I was going to mention Worsley as well, but only because for his entire career people said that he was limited.
That limitation was presumably that he was an absolute top quality tackler, but just pretty good at most other things.


Lydiates work rate and tackling appears to be phenomenal too....
However, what about the rest of his game?
I'm yet to see his carrying / scavenging to be as good as the 'defensive' side of his game.

Admittedly, saying that, the rest of the back row makes up for that......
It's all about balance.

I think that you discredit alot of people by thinking that we only follow the media hype.
Personally i though that he had a very good tournement but his performance on Saturday tipped the scales in favor of him over 1/2p.

RubyGuby wrote:It's a good conundrum and a decent question to pose in all honesty - I would hazard that the OP's rugby views and knowledge base are probably formed from reading The Daily Whizzo

Thanks mate, although I find the Whizzo a bit high brow for my liking

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:BTW does anyone have the tackle stats for the match?

Lydiate made 11 tackles, missed none.

Dusautoir made 19 tackles, missed none.

gelodge wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:BTW does anyone have the tackle stats for the match?

Lydiate made 11 tackles, missed none.

Dusautoir made 19 tackles, missed none.

Need I say more.

The general point about being influenced by media is interesting, but this example is wrong, lots of people have been singing Dans praises for awhile. And the media and commentaters are watching the same game as us, so if we come to the same conclusions maybe thats just because that is what is actually happening.

Dusautoir's engine is ridiculous. His performance in Cardiff in 07 was the best individual performance I've ever seen. The defensive equivalent of Lomu vs England in 95. He's not a predator like McCaw, Pocock, Brussow or Warburton, rather he is a tackling machine. Maybe some of his hits (not all as I've seen him belt a few people all right) aren't as spectacular on average as Lydiate, but I'm sure he's invariably amongst the top two or three in the tackle count every test he plays.

It was Leon MacDonald playing 13 that Mortlock made a mess of. Truth is, he shouldn't have even been on the field. Umaga was fit and raring to go. Deans had a lot of explaining to do there as that had politics written all over it. Mind you I don't think it would have made much difference. The rest of the team weren't good enough on the day and Australia wanted it more. Was a real shame as I fancied NZ to have learned their lessons from Wellington. But it turned out we were playing reactive football then instead of proactive and when Australia didn't make mistakes we turned to custard.

A World cup and three finals
I think the number of us that have our opinions determined by the commentators is much lower than you assume,especially when a lot of what the commentators say is no more then an attempt to fill in broadcasting "air space".

To isolate Lydiate and Dussatior alone and by some engineered process come to some result that one played better than the other is dumb.

Might I suggest that you look at the committment and challenge that both sets of loose forwards put to each other (which includes L and D) and how they went for 80 minutes carrying out that battle then you might start arriving at some quality opinion.

Might I also add that I watched that game from 10,000 miles away with no preference for either team or the two players that had number 6 on their back, and thats one of the few thing in terms of their roles that they had in common.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Might I also add that I watched that game from 10,000 miles away with no preference for either team or the two players that had number 6 on their back, and thats one of the few thing in terms of their roles that they had in common.

Surely from where you were sitting that would be Phillips and Yachvilli?

I dont know, but Jonathan Davis sounded like he was talking backwards.

rugbydreamer wrote:Dusautoir is a 7. France do that strange thing where they swap the 6 and 7 shirt around for some reason

Even if Thierry completed more tackles, I believe that the ones Lydiate made were more crucial and game changing. Twice at least he stopped the French attack dead in their tracks, and plus obviously one of his tackles led straight to the turnover that fed the Welsh try

What you basing this theory on Dreamer? Bonnaire packs down on the open side of the scrum every single time, without exception.

Because Dusautoir is mobile, fast and an excellent player - therefore he must be an openside????

Or a "6.5" as the fashion for pub-talk nonsense now suggests???

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

gelodge wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:BTW does anyone have the tackle stats for the match?

Lydiate made 11 tackles, missed none.

Dusautoir made 19 tackles, missed none.

Need I say more.

Of the 30 tackles made by the two players being "assessed", Dusautoir has made 63% to Lydiate's 37%, factor in that Wales had 63% of the possession to France's 37% it kind of makes it obvious that Dusautoir had to make more tackles. For 67% of the game he had opportunity to make tackles!

I'd suggest that the stats show a parity in their performances (tackles made wise).

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:No chips here, as I said Lydiate played well bit IMO was not the best 6 on Saturday by a long chalk, possibly over the tourno but again I'd give that to Dusatoir but by dint of France playing so badly he was never going to win the prize.
Let's not mythologise the lad, he played well but not that well, just because some one eyed commentator wants to get the kleenex out every time he sees someone in a Welsh jersey is doesn't mean we all have to follow suit. The media love Wales at the moment but let's keep feet on the ground for the sake of the team and all our sanities or there'll be trouble ahead.

BTW does anyone have the tackle stats for the match?

I saw a totally different match it appears, after seeing my Scotland put in their worst performance of the tournament I was in a subdued going into the second match of the day with a view to watch it rather than get carried away by the atmospheric condition of the potential slam.

Firstly Dusatoir altho having a 6 on his back operates left right or maybe in your eyes openside not blindside as the jersey indicates, so seems a bit daft to isolate the two players for comparison

Secondly I saw Lydiate put in a performance that was a country mile ahead of any back three player whether in a red or blue jersey including Dusatoir who couldnt believe on one occasion that Dan made so much yardage to put him on his derriere, after that the scene was set.

Thirdly........... Lydiate didnt miss a tackle, and I believe neither did Dusatoir however he had to make more tackles because the Welsh possession indicated he had to.

Adding to that the arguably MOM performance against us (Scotland) makes it all that more impressive as it was his first outing for such a long time due to serious injury, I had Jon Davies and even 1/2p above Dan as the 6Ns player of the tournament but I wont have any gripes with the announcement

I don't think the commentary was over the top, albeit a tad too biased.......... it was still an immense performance by the best forward on the park

Stats for Dussatoir and Lydiate from Saturdays match

T/A, Pts, K/P/R, MR, CB, DB, OL, TO' Tack, LO, Pen, Y/R
0/0, 0 , 0/4/6, 4, 0 , 0 , 0 , 3 , 19/0, 2/0, 1 , 0/0 Dussatoir
0/0, 0 , 0/5/7, 4, 0 . 0 , 0 , 1 , 11/0, 1/0, 0 , 0/0 Lydiate

Duss made more tackles from that unsuprising since France showed little in attack, as a percentage of the teams tackle success rate they are about the same. Duss gave away a penalty but was used more in the line. Duss won more turnovers though. All in all about evens really. Duss maybe shades it on the turnovers despite the penalty. However stats dont tell the whole story do they, in that Lydiate was immense and made crucial tackles which killed moves dead. Im not sure why he hasnt been given an assist for Cuthberts try but neither has Priestland for some reason.

Casartelli wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Dusautoir is a 7. France do that strange thing where they swap the 6 and 7 shirt around for some reason

Even if Thierry completed more tackles, I believe that the ones Lydiate made were more crucial and game changing. Twice at least he stopped the French attack dead in their tracks, and plus obviously one of his tackles led straight to the turnover that fed the Welsh try

What you basing this theory on Dreamer? Bonnaire packs down on the open side of the scrum every single time, without exception.

Because Dusautoir is mobile, fast and an excellent player - therefore he must be an openside????

Or a "6.5" as the fashion for pub-talk nonsense now suggests???

I thought everyone knew Dusautoir was a 7? The French were like SA I thought where they just effectively swapped the shirts around for the flankers.

From (yes I know I know) wikipedia:

"French teams tend not to make a distinction between the two roles, and their flankers also usually play left and right rather than open and blind: thus, Serge Betsen (France) wears the number six (which in most teams denotes a blindside flanker) but may pack down on either the open or blind sides of the scrum, and will often harass the opposition fly-half in the manner of an openside; like Calder and Jeffrey for Scotland, he and Olivier Magne formed an outstanding left-right partnership for France.[citation needed] South African teams generally use openside and blindside flankers,[citation needed] but play the more agile 'fetcher' in the number six shirt, while the larger and quicker (blindside) flanker wears seven. George Smith is a notable flanker who sometimes played on the blindside, but nowadays plays on the openside"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanker_%28rugby_union%29

Maybe it would be more appropriate to compare dusautoir to Schalk Burger apart from the fact that Scalk's about a foot taller and about 20 kilos heavier,but they would have wardrobe equality.

France play left and right normally rather than open and blind.

Aye, just noticed in most websites team of the tournament, if Dusautoir has made any, it's been in the 7 shirt.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:No chips here, as I said Lydiate played well bit IMO was not the best 6 on Saturday by a long chalk, possibly over the tourno but again I'd give that to Dusatoir but by dint of France playing so badly he was never going to win the prize.
Let's not mythologise the lad, he played well but not that well, just because some one eyed commentator wants to get the kleenex out every time he sees someone in a Welsh jersey is doesn't mean we all have to follow suit. The media love Wales at the moment but let's keep feet on the ground for the sake of the team and all our sanities or there'll be trouble ahead.

BTW does anyone have the tackle stats for the match?

Lydiate made 11tackles and missed none, Dusatoir 19/0 - but that doesn't tell us much about the nature or importance of the tackles made. For full stat details of the entire championship for backrow players, try here: https://www.606v2.com/t26392-stat-alert-player-summaries-from-6ns-the-back-row

aucklandlaurie wrote: I dont know, but Jonathan Davis sounded like he was talking backwards.

That probably improved his commentary, laurie!

upside down,backwards, when its three in the morning and your only up to your second test match of the night anythings an improvement.

I should say, I do always listen Jonathan Edwards when he is talking about 5/8ths as he can be informative, but anything else I just dont listen.I dont see any reason to put s..t on him though.

Red_Dragon_Spirit wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

gelodge wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:BTW does anyone have the tackle stats for the match?

Lydiate made 11 tackles, missed none.

Dusautoir made 19 tackles, missed none.

Need I say more.

Of the 30 tackles made by the two players being "assessed", Dusautoir has made 63% to Lydiate's 37%, factor in that Wales had 63% of the possession to France's 37% it kind of makes it obvious that Dusautoir had to make more tackles. For 67% of the game he had opportunity to make tackles!

I'd suggest that the stats show a parity in their performances (tackles made wise).

RDS, by the same token, if you also apply that logic to attacking, them given Wales's superior possession, then you'd expect Lydiate's stats to reflect greater time ith ball in hand and to greater effect? But they don't really, so I am not sure that line of thinking works for either defence or attack

I don't believe there were many non - Welsh fans watching/listening to Jiffys 'commentary' that made them more favourably biased towards Lydiate!

It was a bit embarrassing & I agree with the points made by the OP.


I think Jiffy could see the GS on the not too distant horizon & a reasoned commentary disappeared & turned into high pitched squeaks.

I probably would have done the same (if I was Welsh) but I was in a pub not being paid by the BBC to commentate.

Red_Dragon_Spirit wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

gelodge wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:BTW does anyone have the tackle stats for the match?

Lydiate made 11 tackles, missed none.

Dusautoir made 19 tackles, missed none.

Need I say more.

Of the 30 tackles made by the two players being "assessed", Dusautoir has made 63% to Lydiate's 37%, factor in that Wales had 63% of the possession to France's 37% it kind of makes it obvious that Dusautoir had to make more tackles. For 67% of the game he had opportunity to make tackles!

I'd suggest that the stats show a parity in their performances (tackles made wise).

Well thats true to some point but you wouldnt say that France were joint winners because they scored as many points per minute with the ball.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don't believe there were many non - Welsh fans watching/listening to Jiffys 'commentary' that made them more favourably biased towards Lydiate!

It was a bit embarrassing & I agree with the points made by the OP.


I think Jiffy could see the GS on the not too distant horizon & a reasoned commentary disappeared & turned into high pitched squeaks.

I probably would have done the same (if I was Welsh) but I was in a pub not being paid by the BBC to commentate.

BigTrev, wasn't Jiffy doing the same in the match vs Scotland, when coicidentally I am sure, Lydiate also received the MOTM award?

I can't comment on the OP's thesis, but there is certainly evidence to support the argument that we are led by commentators' views.

On the 'Player of the Tournament' threads before last weekend, votes were primarily for Richie Gray, with a fairly even spread between Denton, Farrell, Kearney, Fofana and Rennie. Lydiate had less than a third of the votes of any of the leading candidates.

By contrast, Lydiate has won all such polls since the weekend, and done so in an overwhelming, dominant fashion. Sure, Lydiate was good on Saturday, but can a single performance be enough to propel someone to suddenly be the best player of the tournament?

This might have been posters eager to see that a Welshman won the award, and voting accordingly (which is understandable, if a little one-eyed), or it might have been posters of all nationalities being led by the desperately biased views of one commentator (which is deeply worrying).
On a side note, it did seem that Jonathan Davies' manhood was about to flop out of his trousers whenever he mentioned Lydiate at the weekend. Sure he was good, but he wasn't Sharon Stone.

IanBru wrote:I can't comment on the OP's thesis, but there is certainly evidence to support the argument that we are led by commentators' views.

On the 'Player of the Tournament' threads before last weekend, votes were primarily for Richie Gray, with a fairly even spread between Denton, Farrell, Kearney, Fofana and Rennie. Lydiate had less than a third of the votes of any of the leading candidates.

By contrast, Lydiate has won all such polls since the weekend, and done so in an overwhelming, dominant fashion. Sure, Lydiate was good on Saturday, but can a single performance be enough to propel someone to suddenly be the best player of the tournament?

This might have been posters eager to see that a Welshman won the award, and voting accordingly (which is understandable, if a little one-eyed), or it might have been posters of all nationalities being led by the desperately biased views of one commentator (which is deeply worrying).
On a side note, it did seem that Jonathan Davies' manhood was about to flop out of his trousers whenever he mentioned Lydiate at the weekend. Sure he was good, but he wasn't Sharon Stone.

Brilliant, Ian

Me.

I inform all of your views.

Thank God for me.

Sleep, tea, weather, mood.

Couldn't agree more with the OP, Lydiate was in the forefront of most peoples minds as everytime he did anything we had Jiffy raving about it and showing 3 replays of what was a standard tackle. Don't get me wrong he is a good player who had a great tournament but for me their were others who stood out more (Dusatoir, Grey and Halfpenny to name a few). On the stats thread linked above it shows that Lydiate was seldom in the top 3 for tackles, turnovers etc.

Commentary teams will always produce a subconcious favouritism for the viewer just as they are pointing out a player constantly over the course of the match. I often feel that you can tell after about 20mins who is going to win MOTM as the commentators will pick a player out a few times. Then go to lengths to always show him doing something routine later on and proclaiming it as being outstanding just to reinforce their particular view on said player.

And the Sour grapes continue

So I think it's clear that Lydiate was not the true MOTM and that that award probably was deserved by Dusatoir. Because I used the example I did, needless to say the the one eyed dragons have come out tin force but please it just happened to be a recent example that effectively illustrated the point. So many people on here were convinced that Lydiate was far better than Dusatoir and clearly he wasn't by a long way (watch the match again with both eyes open). I don't blame you, it is the power of suggestion and hearing what you want to hear which was the general point of the post and not sour grapes rubyguby.
Well done on the GS, you deserved it, if that makes you feel better.