Dylan Hartley in frame for England captaincy

First topic message reminder :

Northampton hooker Dylan Hartley in frame for England captaincy
England forwards coach Graham Rowntree has revealed that Dylan Hartley "might well soon" be made captain.

Rowntree made the remarks during testimony that helped limit the Northampton hooker's recent ban for biting Ireland's Stephen Ferris .

Hartley is suspended until 14 May following the incident during England's 30-9 Six Nations victory last month.

Rowntree said Hartley was "very close to having been made captain and might well soon become captain".

His comments are recorded in a written judgement which has been released following the independent disciplinary panel's ruling
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17579531

TrailApe wrote:

I think they're having us on here about the young Saffer

I think you have just confirmed how much you DON'T know about Hartley.

And I think you just confirmed that when Ruby goes fishing there's always plenty out there to bite on the bait

Knackeredknees wrote:God I've never read so much sanctimonious rubbish as being spouted on here. He's a biter and should be condemned to life in hell!! Have any of you actually played the game at any senior level? If someone sticks there fingers in your mouth you bite them or if possible bend them back till they squeal. Maybe he should have just dragged ferris out the ruck and speared him into the ground, after all that's how the welsh like to deal with things they don't like on the pitch.

And not 1 welsh person complained when he was banned - See the trend

RubyGuby wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:God I've never read so much sanctimonious rubbish as being spouted on here. He's a biter and should be condemned to life in hell!! Have any of you actually played the game at any senior level? If someone sticks there fingers in your mouth you bite them or if possible bend them back till they squeal. Maybe he should have just dragged ferris out the ruck and speared him into the ground, after all that's how the welsh like to deal with things they don't like on the pitch.

And not 1 welsh person complained when he was banned - See the trend

Not really aimed at you ruby, more some over zealous countrymen of yours who can't see with only the one eye open.

And in that looonnnggg thread a few welsh posters tried to use the fact that the Irish player charged into the ruck first as mitigating the spear

As a neutral, and I am , I watched the 6 nations so I don't get how the welsh hookers were better than Hartley
I even checked the statistics just to make sure, it showed that overall Best Hartley and Ford had a good and solid tournament, especially when it comes to the basics, and compared to the rest those three were the best. Therefore, if the lions was this year they will definitely make it, choosing a welsh hooker would be absurd.

In addition, I did read the transcript, unlike some, and yes Ferris reputation took a blow, in my eyes, BECAUSE the committee rejected the important points from his testimony as it contradicted the facts, they rejected:
how long it lasted (he stated it went for seconds when it only lasted a fraction of a second)
the severity ( he stated there were 4 teeth mark and broken skin whereas the IRISH doctor stated that it was only 3 teeth marks, no broken skin and he only had to look at it once only to clean it)
his body positioning ( he stated that although his hand was on Hartley's neck and jaw area he wasn't using it, he was only using his arm, however the video showed that the way his body was positioned he was definitely applying pressure through his wrist therefore exerting pressure on Dylan's lower face, which ferris already stated he wasn't doing and that his hand was just lying over his face, again the video shows otherwise).
Overall Ferris lied and the reason Dylan got banned was:a bite is a bite and rugby neither condones self-defense nor has laws that allow cited players use it as a reason.

Knackered Knees - I wouldn't take some of this welsh baiting seriously - Hartley's a strong player but sometimes he doesn't do himself any favours - It looks to me as if he's retaliated to something here and a lot of us within the game at the moment are having some serious discussions around retaliation as in some cases its almost a reflex reaction that would not have occurred if some twxt in the first place had not been up to some dodgy stuff. Hartley has to aware now that he is one of those players who has to be cleaner than clean or he will always get pinged, its not fair but thats the way it goes I'm afraid. Sean Fitzpatrick was the master at being the nice guy to the ref - he could learn some lessons from him as he was as tough as an old dog when it came to the game.

RubyGuby wrote:C'mon Osprey they know ignorance is blind really - I think they're having us on here about the young Saffer - Lads a walking time bomb

He's a Kiwi if anything (except English, which is what he actually is)

ChequeredJersey wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:C'mon Osprey they know ignorance is blind really - I think they're having us on here about the young Saffer - Lads a walking time bomb

He's a Kiwi if anything (except English, which is what he actually is)

Kerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrching

RubyGuby wrote:Knackered Knees - I wouldn't take some of this welsh baiting seriously - Hartley's a strong player but sometimes he doesn't do himself any favours - It looks to me as if he's retaliated to something here and a lot of us within the game at the moment are having some serious discussions around retaliation as in some cases its almost a reflex reaction that would not have occurred if some twxt in the first place had not been up to some dodgy stuff. Hartley has to aware now that he is one of those players who has to be cleaner than clean or he will always get pinged, its not fair but thats the way it goes I'm afraid. Sean Fitzpatrick was the master at being the nice guy to the ref - he could learn some lessons from him as he was as tough as an old dog when it came to the game.

Trouble is mud sticks, first the gougeing that happened five years ago clean apart from this and that's all some fans would ever say about him, the standing up he gets uninformed fans screaming he should be penalized or carded every time it happens when its not a penalty offense. He could never concede another penalty again in his life but to some will be worse than satan because he's English and Dylan Hartley

wickedwasp wrote:
Please don't bandy about words like scum & thug unless you have the evidence to back them up.

If I had a cent for every time I read those 2 words regarding this incident, I would be able to buy a BigMac meal....UPSIZE

He still bit someone, are you still saying that thats ok to do on a rugby pitch? If Ferris WAS lying, why wasnt he punished as well? No matter how one eyed you think I may be, the facts are Hartley bit someone on a rugby field, which in my eyes is cowardly and wrong, sorry if you guys disagree, there should be no place for this in rugby, gouging and biting should be stamped out completely, saying "he only bit him a little bit" isnt a defense.

ospreysboyo wrote:He still bit someone, are you still saying that thats ok to do on a rugby pitch? If Ferris WAS lying, why wasnt he punished as well? No matter how one eyed you think I may be, the facts are Hartley bit someone on a rugby field, which in my eyes is cowardly and wrong, sorry if you guys disagree, there should be no place for this in rugby, gouging and biting should be stamped out completely, saying "he only bit him a little bit" isnt a defense.

Ferris wasn't punished because Ferris wasn't on trial. Hartley was rightly banned, because he bit someone. However that doesn't excuse Ferris for exaggerating the damage done, or for trying to minimise his own actions at the ruck. For what it's worth I don't think that Ferris deliberately put his finger in Hartley's mouth, however the cleanout method he tried probably should have been penalised as dangerous play for grabbing the head. - That's penalised, not a card.

Knackeredknees wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Knackered Knees - I wouldn't take some of this welsh baiting seriously - Hartley's a strong player but sometimes he doesn't do himself any favours - It looks to me as if he's retaliated to something here and a lot of us within the game at the moment are having some serious discussions around retaliation as in some cases its almost a reflex reaction that would not have occurred if some twxt in the first place had not been up to some dodgy stuff. Hartley has to aware now that he is one of those players who has to be cleaner than clean or he will always get pinged, its not fair but thats the way it goes I'm afraid. Sean Fitzpatrick was the master at being the nice guy to the ref - he could learn some lessons from him as he was as tough as an old dog when it came to the game.

Trouble is mud sticks, first the gougeing that happened five years ago clean apart from this and that's all some fans would ever say about him, the standing up he gets uninformed fans screaming he should be penalized or carded every time it happens when its not a penalty offense. He could never concede another penalty again in his life but to some will be worse than satan because he's English and Dylan Hartley

It happens to all players of all nations not just little Dylan and I'm afraid irrespective of no recent serious incidents or suspensions he is someone who's temperament remains a liability

Ospreyboyo

Maybe it because I started playing in the amateur days and watched my dad play from the late 70's but I was always told in a maul/ruck if a hands not where you want it to be, if possible grab it and bend the fingers till the perpetrator let's go, you can then see who holding there hand for retribution later same goes for fingers in your mouth bite the bar stewards. The bloke doing it knew where his hand was and was willing to take the risk.

Now knowingly putting your hand where there not ment to be getting bit then running to the ref is very much against the spirt of the game

I guess so, but no matter what, biting is wrong. You cant justify it. Even if his hand was over his face, which it shouldnt have been, I mean come on, you know where your hands should be, it still didnt justify Hartley biting him.

ospreysboyo wrote:I guess so, but no matter what, biting is wrong. You cant justify it. Even if his hand was over his face, which it shouldnt have been, I mean come on, you know where your hands should be, it still didnt justify Hartley biting him.

His hand wasn't just "over his face", his hand was exerting a lot of pressure on his neck, jaws and mouth. READ THE TRANSCRIPT!!! Hartley states Ferris's finger was in fact in his mouth and he was hooking him, but they weren't able to find evidence of it so they had to refute it. BUT they also refuted Ferris's claim that it was "just a hand over his face" because evidence suggests it was more than that. A normal human reaction to having someone exerting pressure on your face is either a bite or a punch and last time I checked rugby players were neither robots nor angels, just mere humans.

So if biting is NEVER justified, do you think Wannenburg is, as you people eloquently put it, a "scum" and a "thug" ? and should he deserve a "witch hunt"?

So it was ok for Hartley to bite him then? Was it ok to gouge as well? Im pretty sure that Ferris was trying to provoke him, because he is a loose cannon, and he did get a reaction, but no matter what, THERE ARE NO EXCUSES FOR BITING ANOTHER PLAYER. I still cant believe that people are making Hartley out to be the victim!

ospreysboyo wrote:So it was ok for Hartley to bite him then? Was it ok to gouge as well? Im pretty sure that Ferris was trying to provoke him, because he is a loose cannon, and he did get a reaction, but no matter what, THERE ARE NO EXCUSES FOR BITING ANOTHER PLAYER. I still cant believe that people are making Hartley out to be the victim!

Honey, biting is not as black and white as you believe, yes there are justified reasons for biting one of which is having some player their hand on your mouth and exerting pressure.
BTW what kind of logic do you have? " oh so if it's ok to bite then it's ok to gouge" are you for real?!!!
How the hell do you equate two different processes that involves two different body parts together?!!! The most you get out of gouging is blindness, the most you get out of biting for a fraction of a second with a mouth-guard is teeth mark. If you actually thought both actions are the same then you need to get checked up.

ospreysboyo wrote:So it was ok for Hartley to bite him then? Was it ok to gouge as well? Im pretty sure that Ferris was trying to provoke him, because he is a loose cannon, and he did get a reaction, but no matter what, THERE ARE NO EXCUSES FOR BITING ANOTHER PLAYER. I still cant believe that people are making Hartley out to be the victim!

oh you still didn't answer my question. tic-toc tic-toc.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No, Ferris does not come out looking worse

Even when the Irish doctor points out that some of Ferris's statement to the panel is actually untrue and even more of the evidence is overlooked as incorrect? Read the document, it does not show young Mr Ferris in a good light at all.

Trouble with Ferris is, he doesn't like losing.

Still cant see how anyone can defend what Harley did, seems some people think he was in the right, THAT is some flawed logic, because Ferris had his hand there, it was ok to bite him???

Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

[quote="faraway"]

ospreysboyo wrote:
So if biting is NEVER justified, do you think Wannenburg is, as you people eloquently put it, a "scum" and a "thug" ? and should he deserve a "witch hunt"?

No, because Wannenburg just reacted to Hartley trying to pull his head off. Whereas Hartley viciously attacked Ferris after he used his head for judo leverage (completely different to trying to pull someone's head off).

Morgannwg wrote:Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

Great argument.......Tangaki Taulupe Faletau has looked pretty good in a Welsh jersey lately, where in Wales is he from again?

[quote="HammerofThunor"]

faraway wrote:

ospreysboyo wrote:
So if biting is NEVER justified, do you think Wannenburg is, as you people eloquently put it, a "scum" and a "thug" ? and should he deserve a "witch hunt"?

No, because Wannenburg just reacted to Hartley trying to pull his head off. Whereas Hartley viciously attacked Ferris after he used his head for judo leverage (completely different to trying to pull someone's head off).

3 words READ. THE. REPORT. because you would not come to that conclusion if you read it and IF you actually did read it then you need to check your other eye.

May I add that both incidents are IDENTICAL, they both have the element of exerting pressure on the mouth region that lead to the retaliation. Again if you still think they're not similar after reading the report, you need to check your other eye.

Sorry, there isn't a sarcastic smiley. I thought it was obvious when writing it but I suppose with some of the posters on here it's hard to tell the difference. My bad.

Now read it again knowing the context

ospreysboyo wrote:Still cant see how anyone can defend what Harley did, seems some people think he was in the right, THAT is some flawed logic, because Ferris had his hand there, it was ok to bite him???

STILL didn't answer my question. And honey it's HARTLEY, Harley is a motorcycle manufacturer.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

Great argument.......Tangaki Taulupe Faletau has looked pretty good in a Welsh jersey lately, where in Wales is he from again?

A nice kid that learnt all his rugby in Wales from age 7 was it? Via Ebbw Vale, Crosskeys, Dragons, Filton College. England and Tonga tried to nick him from us but failed epically.

On that note: Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom, Corbiserero, Stevens, Hape, Flutey, Big Les, Catt, Stevens, etc.... Going for a poached XV are you?

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

Great argument.......Tangaki Taulupe Faletau has looked pretty good in a Welsh jersey lately, where in Wales is he from again?

A nice kid that learnt all his rugby in Wales from age 7 was it? Via Ebbw Vale, Crosskeys, Dragons, Filton College. England and Tonga tried to nick him from us but failed epically.

On that note: Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom, Corbiserero, Stevens, Hape, Flutey, Big Les, Catt, Stevens, etc.... Going for a poached XV are you?

You're obviously quite sad

HammerofThunor wrote:Sorry, there isn't a sarcastic smiley. I thought it was obvious when writing it but I suppose with some of the posters on here it's hard to tell the difference. My bad.

Now read it again knowing the context

Hahaha. This is just embarrassing, I'm usually good at detecting sarcasm but it's mid-night here and I'm really tired. So I should probably go to bed before I completely embarrass myself.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

Great argument.......Tangaki Taulupe Faletau has looked pretty good in a Welsh jersey lately, where in Wales is he from again?

A nice kid that learnt all his rugby in Wales from age 7 was it? Via Ebbw Vale, Crosskeys, Dragons, Filton College. England and Tonga tried to nick him from us but failed epically.

On that note: Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom, Corbiserero, Stevens, Hape, Flutey, Big Les, Catt, Stevens, etc.... Going for a poached XV are you?

You're obviously quite sad

I think you need to stop getting so upset over facts like Hartley is overated and posters then naming a list of Welsh hookers better than him. Come on, you even thought Tuilagi should get the nod over Davies in the 6 Nations XV amongst another one or two odd decisions.

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

Great argument.......Tangaki Taulupe Faletau has looked pretty good in a Welsh jersey lately, where in Wales is he from again?

A nice kid that learnt all his rugby in Wales from age 7 was it? Via Ebbw Vale, Crosskeys, Dragons, Filton College. England and Tonga tried to nick him from us but failed epically.

On that note: Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom, Corbiserero, Stevens, Hape, Flutey, Big Les, Catt, Stevens, etc.... Going for a poached XV are you?

You're obviously quite sad

I think you need to stop getting so upset over facts like Hartley is overated and posters then naming a list of Welsh hookers better than him. Come on, you even thought Tuilagi should get the nod over Davies in the 6 Nations XV amongst another one or two odd decisions.

I said Tuilagi was the better player not that he should be named over JD in a 6N team. If you're going to stalk somebody at least do it right.

What is it with some of the Welsh posters on here (Not all I might add).....totally clueless.

Stalking? No, I actually commented on the post and had to try and remember what it was. Going by 6 Nations form, Tuilagi is clearly not the better player and Hartley/Lawes are very overated and average players. Calling somebody clueless because you disagree is quite childish. Do you not think you need to call Steve Thompson out of retirement because there are no good hookers?

"Hartley/Lawes are very overated and average players"

Can't argue with that.....

No personal insults of any sort from me KRD. And pooly, I'm glad we finally agree. It took you long enough mind.

If that makes you stop spoting rubbish I'll go with that

Morgannwg wrote:On that note: Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom, Corbiserero, Stevens, Hape, Flutey, Big Les, Catt, Stevens, etc.... Going for a poached XV are you?

Now I am pretty sure he wrote the songs, Moonshadow, Father and son, Morning has broken etc.

"Morgannwg" - it might be a bit difficult calling Thompson out of retirement, due to the fact he retired because of injury.

England also have a number of impressive hookers coming through... for example Rob Webber, Joe Gray, David Paice, Chris Brooker, Tom Youngs, Jamie George. JG probably has the most potential, whilst he is being tutored by Britz and Smit, two incredibly good hookers.

However for now Hartley is clearly by and far, England's first choice hooker and vice-captain to Robshaw. Whilst if he was Welsh i'm certain he would be their first choice hooker.

In my opinion Hartley along with Best were the two best hookers in the 2012 six nations, Hartley's scrummaging and work-rate were particularly impressive.

Matthew Rees is the best Welsh hooker atm, and i'm sure if he gets back to full fitness and finds his form he will only improve an increasingly impressive Welsh side.

Never argue with a fool. They will just drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

nobbled wrote:Never argue with a fool. They will just drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

although you said that with a sense of humour there is a lot of truth in that statement Sir nobbled.

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

Great argument.......Tangaki Taulupe Faletau has looked pretty good in a Welsh jersey lately, where in Wales is he from again?

A nice kid that learnt all his rugby in Wales from age 7 was it? Via Ebbw Vale, Crosskeys, Dragons, Filton College. England and Tonga tried to nick him from us but failed epically.

On that note: Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom, Corbiserero, Stevens, Hape, Flutey, Big Les, Catt, Stevens, etc.... Going for a poached XV are you?

All I can say is it's a bloody good job that Wales only pick Players to represent them that are born in Wales

robshaw4england wrote:"Morgannwg" - it might be a bit difficult calling Thompson out of retirement, due to the fact he retired because of injury.

England also have a number of impressive hookers coming through... for example Rob Webber, Joe Gray, David Paice, Chris Brooker, Tom Youngs, Jamie George. JG probably has the most potential, whilst he is being tutored by Britz and Smit, two incredibly good hookers.

However for now Hartley is clearly by and far, England's first choice hooker and vice-captain to Robshaw. Whilst if he was Welsh i'm certain he would be their first choice hooker.

In my opinion Hartley along with Best were the two best hookers in the 2012 six nations, Hartley's scrummaging and work-rate were particularly impressive.

Matthew Rees is the best Welsh hooker atm, and i'm sure if he gets back to full fitness and finds his form he will only improve an increasingly impressive Welsh side.

Hartley, the worst hooker in the 6 Nations would not get into our team when we had 3/4 available hookers. That is more available than England. Each played well IMO, particulary Bennet (suprisingly) through the world cup but we have probably seen the last of him in a Wales jersey now.

Had no idea Thompson had to retire due to injury. I thought he was a very good player and quite large for a hooker which would only make England stronger up front when he played. I did mention Jamie George on here earlier I think. Perhaps England should hand him some experience the way they did with Ben Morgan, it would only be to your own benefit.

Really can't see how you can be so certain of Hartley in these aspects. He does all the basics on par/worse than all other hookers in the 6 Nations. As for scrummaging, he just stands up a lot which is illegal. That is not a good scrummager. I think Farrell has the qualities of soon becoming vice captain for England.

Knackeredknees wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

Great argument.......Tangaki Taulupe Faletau has looked pretty good in a Welsh jersey lately, where in Wales is he from again?

A nice kid that learnt all his rugby in Wales from age 7 was it? Via Ebbw Vale, Crosskeys, Dragons, Filton College. England and Tonga tried to nick him from us but failed epically.

On that note: Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom, Corbiserero, Stevens, Hape, Flutey, Big Les, Catt, Stevens, etc.... Going for a poached XV are you?

All I can say is it's a bloody good job that Wales only pick Players to represent them that are born in Wales

Why are you going on about birth places? People can't help where they are born, they don't have a say in the matter.

It's not like we are waiting for playing nations to develop players until the time is right (i:e: there is no decent enough player in a certain position) then poaching them. That's Englands job.

Morgannwg wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hartley is a joke end of. It seems England can't even find an English hooker along with English centre's in their massive playing pool.

Great argument.......Tangaki Taulupe Faletau has looked pretty good in a Welsh jersey lately, where in Wales is he from again?

A nice kid that learnt all his rugby in Wales from age 7 was it? Via Ebbw Vale, Crosskeys, Dragons, Filton College. England and Tonga tried to nick him from us but failed epically.

On that note: Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom, Corbiserero, Stevens, Hape, Flutey, Big Les, Catt, Stevens, etc.... Going for a poached XV are you?

All I can say is it's a bloody good job that Wales only pick Players to represent them that are born in Wales

Why are you going on about birth places? People can't help where they are born, they don't have a say in the matter.

Why are you continually banging on about it then, in a boring, dull and repetetive manner?

Where did I mention places of birth in a repetitive manner? The only time I did was that response to it, the one you have pointed out.

Why do people continue with the "foreign player" argument. We have poached a few foreign players (though most with significant links to England). Wales, both now and in the past (the dark days of Hal Luscombe and Sonny Parker, anyone?) have done exactly the same. So have Scotland and to a degree France, New Zealand, Australia and pretty much every country except South Africa (unless you count Rhodesians) and to my knowledge, Ireland. So unless they start preaching, there is no way any country can take the moral high ground on this. Given the personal nature of what one feels is one's Nationality anyway and the complexities of immigration and nationality and whether the most important aspect is where one lives and works, was brought up, born, parents are from or shares a culture with, all of these "you have foreign players, this somehow degrades your team" bollix is absolutely meaningless and demonstrates a lack of thought about what their country actually is. There are problems with immigrant players and workers but unless you actually discuss these issues rather than making inane generalisations, please can people refrain from trying to use that argument? It's below even WUMing

CJ - I agree with everything you say. You might wanna point it out to a number of your fellow England fans though as they are convinced North is English and still to this day go on about it.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Why do people continue with the "foreign player" argument. We have poached a few foreign players (though most with significant links to England). Wales, both now and in the past (the dark days of Hal Luscombe and Sonny Parker, anyone?) have done exactly the same. So have Scotland and to a degree France, New Zealand, Australia and pretty much every country except South Africa (unless you count Rhodesians) and to my knowledge, Ireland. So unless they start preaching, there is no way any country can take the moral high ground on this. Given the personal nature of what one feels is one's Nationality anyway and the complexities of immigration and nationality and whether the most important aspect is where one lives and works, was brought up, born, parents are from or shares a culture with, all of these "you have foreign players, this somehow degrades your team" bollix is absolutely meaningless and demonstrates a lack of thought about what their country actually is. There are problems with immigrant players and workers but unless you actually discuss these issues rather than making inane generalisations, please can people refrain from trying to use that argument? It's below even WUMing

CJ its just an easy target or argument, pay no heed to it.

I think there's a certain amount of jealousy from the non English posters on this thread, a distinct lack of actual knowledge regarding the player in question, and not a small amount of anti-English sentiment.

Morgan, no it is Cuthbert and not North, who is English.