Leinster - Clermont - how do they match up

First topic message reminder :

Along with that SF two years against Toulouse, I think Leinster are now heading into arguably their toughest ever HC match against Clermont in Bordeaux in three weeks time and we will probably have to put in the most intense performance if we are to make the final. Have to say more nervous about this one than I have been for a long long time.

Playing for 50 minutes like we did against a crap team like Cardiff ain’t going to do against Clermont who were clinical against Saracens and could have won by a lot more if they had extended themselves. Have we the pack to stand up against a very powerful Clermont, how do the three-quarters match? etc

At this stage, the all-knowing bookies don’t know how to call it with the same odds (10/11) for both teams, so in the interests of debate here’s my man-to-man assessment based on Saturday’s starting 15’s (obviously there’s no certainty the starting 15’s for the semi-final will be the same.

15 – Kearney –v- Byrne. Byrne was good against Saracens but Kearney is in the form of his life, in attack, in defence and under the high ball – Kearney

14 – Nacewa –v- Sivivatu. Isa had an unusually quiet game v Cardiff while Sivi was a bit more active v Saracens. Question marks over Sivi’s defence (none over Isa’s), but hard to call this one. Blue-tinged specs give it Nacewa

13 – O’Driscoll –v- Rougerie. BOD settling back in nicely and with a couple more games in next few weeks should be in fine shape. Rougerie is huge but has that mattered that much in previous games against Leinster? Again hard to call so make it evens

12 – Darcy –v- Fofana. Darcy has improved in recent weeks but think Fofana is a fantastic player if still having a bit to learn about passing to the rest of his team. Fofana

11 – Fitzgerald –v- Malzieu. Malzieu was pretty quiet v Saracens but we know what he can do. Lukey did some nice things (the BOD try) but have to go with Malzieu for this one

10 – Sexton –v- Skrela. Have to say always though Skrela is a bit flaky and how will Brock James fare if he’s the starting 10 v Leinster. Sexton in fantastic form right now so a clear vote for Sexton

9 – Reddan –v- Parra. No question Parra has the edge over either of Leinster’s 9’s – a real general for Clermont. I’d be inclined to start Boss for this one – more aggressive than Reddan and that might count against a real physical outfit like Clermont. Parra

8 – Heaslip –v- Vermeulen. Heaslip a lot better after a poor 6N but still has a way to go to reach the level of last year. Vermeulen gets ignored a lot as a result of the number of fine 8’s in France. If Heaslip continues to improve then I think he has the edge

7 – O’Brien –v- Lapandry. I’d be inclined to play Jennings for the start and move SOB to his preferred 6 and move McLaughin to the bench. Lapandry a dependable if not spectacular 7 so O’Brien gets’ the nod

6 – McLaughlin – v- Bonnaire. McL playing well but Bonnaire is one of the best around so Bonnaire for me

5 – Thorn –v- Hines. Worth the price of the ticket alone, two big bruisers who know all the tricks of trade. Thorn still playing his way in and Hines playing well for Clermont (what a tragedy we were forced by the IRFU blazers to let him go). Marginal call but Hines for me

4 – Cudmore –v- Cullen. Cudmore was lot better v Saracens that I expected and remarkably managed not to get carded. He’s still too much of a loose cannon and I’d give Leo the edge here

3 – Ross –v- Zirkashvili. Prop not the strong point for this superannuated winger. Both did well at the weekend – thought Ross gave Gethin Jenkins a tough time and that’s an achievement in itself. Zirk very strong in an overwhelmingly dominant Clermont scrum. Evens between the two

2 – Strauss –v- Kayser. Would definitely start with Strauss for his more physical approach. Again don’t have expertise to evaluate hookers so will duck the issue and go for evens again

1 – Healy –v- Faure – Ditto as for 3 and 2 so for evens between the two

Thoughts, especially on the front rows especially welcome

not so sure about a superior backline rodders. we may have more guile and skill but they have more raw pace and power particularly in midfield

think we could get the measure of them in the back row and having won two hc' may stand to us in a cliffhanger finish. going to be some game either way.

lets not forget we had no Sexton when we lost in Toulouse.. At the time we had no back up of close to his caliber in reserve.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Like last year and the year before, I think the two best teams in the competition are meeting in the semi final. Toulouse beat Leinster with home advantage in 2010 and went on to win th trophy, and Leinster beat Toulouse with home advantage in 2011 and went on to win the title. But Toulouse have been poor in Europe this year and Clermont have replaced them as Leinsters biggest threat. They were class at the weekend. And the last two years have shown that home advantage is crucial.

But Leinster have to see the away draw as a new challenge to prove themselves. Their "away" semi against Munster in 2009 was in Croke Park, in Dublin. So it was really a home match. They had home advantage all the way last year. To go to France and beat Clermont and go on to win a 3rd HC in 4 years would, I think, elevate them from one of the great HC teams, to the best HC team ever.

A win in France against one of the French giants is the one thing we haven't done in the last 4 years. Initially I was annoyed we got the away draw again. But it should be seen as an opportunity.

Well put Feckless. We can’t hope for an easy ride and still hope to be considered the best.

The last team we lost to in Europe was Clermont in France, without BOD or Heaslip. We’ve also now got a bench that can really come into the game and make a massive impact last time they beat us our bench was – Jason Harris Wright, Cian Healy, Clint Newland, Toner, Ryan, Reddan, Berne, D. Kearney.

Now it’s likely to be – Cronin, VDM, White, Toner, Jennings, Boss, Madigan, McFadden

A marked improvement from 17/18 months ago.

clint newland impact sub extrordinaire

certainly makes better reading now eh mick

One things for sure. Our chances of winning have improved 100% with the arrival of Thorn. Very interesting to see what affect he's had on the scrums (according to Ross).

Nah Dave Leinster have the better backline, certainly as a unit. Fofana, Rougerie, Malzieu and Sivavatu Will be a handful individually though .

Never worry about that big Georgean prop fella either. Hes a big softy, Ferris was knocking him all about the place at Ravenhill......

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:GC - Skrela lasted about two minutes against Sarries.

Absolutely and he played like a donkey for both of those minutes.

see you in Twickers Rodders

For Edinburgh v Clermont

Georgians absolute shower of wet lettuces. No bother to a lad from the Tarf

Shame Dom Ryan isn't making the bench. Very good player.

I didn’t see the ASM game at the weekend but from what I’m reading (on the ASM forum), Rougerie isn’t exactly in sparkling form.


Sivivatu, Malzieu and Byrne v Nacewa, Fitzgerald and Kearney

Cudmore and Hines v Cullen and Thorn

Parra and James v Reddan and Sexton

Good jeysus…. What a match in prospect….

thorn is a proper wind up merchant. il give cudmore 5 minutes before swinging one.

going to be a belter. excited already.. counting down the days

rougerie played really well dont no why you heard that...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:rougerie played really well dont no why you heard that...

Well don’t worry. I won’t be hanging my hopes on Rougerie costing them the game!

Dave, that would be lovely. Cept Hines is a massive wind up merchant too, and he’ll have the number of a lot of the Leinster players.

true. have not seen a proper punch up this year in HC. plenty of potential for sparks to fly in 2nd row alone.

Mickado wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:rougerie played really well dont no why you heard that...

Well don’t worry. I won’t be hanging my hopes on Rougerie costing them the game!

Dave, that would be lovely. Cept Hines is a massive wind up merchant too, and he’ll have the number of a lot of the Leinster players.

I can see it now, Hines sitting on Thorn, SOB's ankle in one hand and a chunk of Mike Ross's shirt in his other - ligind

Feckless Rogue wrote:Like last year and the year before, I think the two best teams in the competition are meeting in the semi final. Toulouse beat Leinster with home advantage in 2010 and went on to win th trophy, and Leinster beat Toulouse with home advantage in 2011 and went on to win the title. But Toulouse have been poor in Europe this year and Clermont have replaced them as Leinsters biggest threat. They were class at the weekend. And the last two years have shown that home advantage is crucial.

But Leinster have to see the away draw as a new challenge to prove themselves. Their "away" semi against Munster in 2009 was in Croke Park, in Dublin. So it was really a home match. They had home advantage all the way last year. To go to France and beat Clermont and go on to win a 3rd HC in 4 years would, I think, elevate them from one of the great HC teams, to the best HC team ever.

A win in France against one of the French giants is the one thing we haven't done in the last 4 years. Initially I was annoyed we got the away draw again. But it should be seen as an opportunity.

No. That will still be Toulouse. 4 wins and 6 finals.

If Leinster win this year and then again the following year they will have 4 stars on their Jersey and you can say that. Maybe

Yeah Toulouse have achieved the most overall. But Toulouse won the 4 spread over 14 years with different squads. I meant 3 in 4 would be something that no team has achieved before with pretty much the same squad, with a few changes. Even the Toulouse team of the mid 00's only won 2 in 3. Like us. Not 3 in 4, like we might be able to achieve this year.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Yeah Toulouse have achieved the most overall. But Toulouse won the 4 spread over 14 years with different squads. I meant 3 in 4 would be something that no team has achieved before with pretty much the same squad, with a few changes. Even the Toulouse team of the mid 00's only won 2 in 3. Like us. Not 3 in 4, like we might be able to achieve this year.

Yeah but they only lost the final of the 3rd one in the last few minutes.

Hound calling Boyne. I don't think the PM is workung.

Going on the winners and runners up spots over the duration of the competition it is still certainly Toulouse's overall show (4 Wins, 2 Second places) - even if Leinster were to win this year.

But three wins in four years would be a hefty record onto itself for the time being for Leinster should they do it. Then the following year would be the decider - if they achieved a win in 2013, that would be unquestionably their moment when they would overtake Toulouse as the all time great European side.

When you put it like that, that's one TALL order and shows us just how tough the Heineken Cup competition is! Let's just hope this year works out first.

Hound! I got that info on B'eaux- thanks a mil for that! Very useful!!

No. That will still be Toulouse. 4 wins and 6 finals.

I think the point is that Leinster would be the best team, as the team has basically stayed the same for the 3 cups, whereas the Toulouse team has changed completely over the 10 odd years or something they've won the cup?

...not that I agree with the statement... so hard to judge teams historically v now...

Greatest teams in terms of Eutopean honours.

Toulouse 4
Wasps 2 1/2 (Amlin)
Leinster, Munster, Leicester 2
Northampton, Brive, Bath and Ulster. 1

Leinster and Wasps have never lost a final.

Stade Francaise and Biarritz have lost two finals each and are yet to win one.

Leicester are the only back to back champs.

Anyone know if Toulouse have ever done the double? My guess is no.

They did in 1996...

leinsterbaby wrote:Greatest teams in terms of Eutopean honours.

Toulouse 4
Wasps 2 1/2 (Amlin)
Leinster, Munster, Leicester 2
Northampton, Brive, Bath and Ulster. 1

Leinster and Wasps have never lost a final.

Stade Francaise and Biarritz have lost two finals each and are yet to win one.

Leicester are the only back to back champs.

I'd kinda tie in runner-up places to overall records rather than tying Amlin records into HC ones.

I'd have it:

Toulouse (4, 2)
Leicester (2, 3)
Munster (2, 2)
Leinster/Wasps (2)

BoyneRFC wrote:They did in 1996...

So it's just the Rabo that's never seen a double. Guess it must be the toughest league.

That's a good one leinsterbaby