Irish Summer Tour Squad

First topic message reminder :

RELAND SUMMER TOUR SQUAD (New Zealand 2012):

Backs (13):

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
AN Other

Forwards (16):

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster) *
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
AN Other
AN Other
AN Other

I agree with you. He is responsible for a lot not everything. He is involved in the gameplan of course. That falls solely on his shoulders. He has shown too much faith in some players and it has cost the team. Can he turn it around? He can, some things he and Kiss have brought like our defence have been superb. Areas need to be improved but it is not as doom and gloom as we probably make out. There are some positives, not a lot like but there are a few!

I want him to turn it around Thomond. I'm behind him. I want to see those shoots of hope that the system is changing and lessons are finally being learned. If I see that in New Zealand, and I'm not even demanding a win - if I see a real change in game strategy and it is sustained through the 3 games then I'll be here saying "thank you Declan - I can see the clouds raising and I'm all for you continuing in the job".

SecretFly wrote:I want him to turn it around Thomond. I'm behind him. I want to see those shoots of hope that the system is changing and lessons are finally being learned. If I see that in New Zealand, and I'm not even demanding a win - if I see a real change in game strategy and it is sustained through the 3 games then I'll be here saying "thank you Declan - I can see the clouds raising and I'm all for you continuing in the job".

Sounds like the script for a Disney movie.

We need to beat the all blacks. Anything less is failure.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Lets come at this from a different point of view Sin.

If you could wave a magic wand and change things in the Irish set up, what would you do. You can move people around, bring in new players, new coaches whatever, but you can't make anyone better or worse than they are now.

What would be your plan of action?

You mean like Ireland was a club where you can buy in world cup winners from places like Japan when one of your key players in injured?

No. Just in general.

a) Do you think Ireland are fulfilling their potential?
b) If not, what changes do you think should be made to help us do that? Who should be selected, who should be coach, what should the tactics be?

I always hear you criticising other peoples views- why don't you say what YOU think Ireland need to do to get back to competing for Slams and beating SH teams?

This should be VERY interesting.

I doubt there will be a response unfortunately.

Also, for the people saying that Kidney isn't to blame for individual errors, which we all know have mostly been committed by D'Arcy, do not forget the amount of criticism that D'Arcy as an individual has received. That argument doesn't really work.

leinsterbaby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I want him to turn it around Thomond. I'm behind him. I want to see those shoots of hope that the system is changing and lessons are finally being learned. If I see that in New Zealand, and I'm not even demanding a win - if I see a real change in game strategy and it is sustained through the 3 games then I'll be here saying "thank you Declan - I can see the clouds raising and I'm all for you continuing in the job".

Sounds like the script for a Disney movie.

We need to beat the all blacks. Anything less is failure.

Then most probable outcome is Failure, baby. Sorry to break the bad news to you that effort and inventiveness and aggression and speed won't necessarily still take us over the top and allow us to beat All Blacks - even once. I hope they do but I'm admitting it's a real world out there actually, not the Disney one you alluded to.

I find it easy to say a marked improvement in game management and a marked improvement in player performances - added to consistency at it - ie, over three games, not one - it's easy for me to say that will be a bonus on what has gone on to date. And that's all we can hope for at this stage - a certifiable change in gameplan and high performances from the players. All that is still no guarantee of a win - and if that's failure to you still, so be it...we all have our own yardsticks.

SecretFly wrote:
Then most probable outcome is Failure, baby.

I found this rather strange until i realised you were talking to LeinsterBABY!

I agree, I'm not calling for us to crush the all blacks, I just want to see us compete playing positive rugby.

I think a win would blow my expectations entirely out of the water.

Mickado wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Lets come at this from a different point of view Sin.

If you could wave a magic wand and change things in the Irish set up, what would you do. You can move people around, bring in new players, new coaches whatever, but you can't make anyone better or worse than they are now.

What would be your plan of action?

You mean like Ireland was a club where you can buy in world cup winners from places like Japan when one of your key players in injured?

No. Just in general.

a) Do you think Ireland are fulfilling their potential?
b) If not, what changes do you think should be made to help us do that? Who should be selected, who should be coach, what should the tactics be?

I always hear you criticising other peoples views- why don't you say what YOU think Ireland need to do to get back to competing for Slams and beating SH teams?

This should be VERY interesting.

I should have known that you speak for each other

a) Yes. I think they are. Many of our players are very over-rated. We've about 3/4 world class players (and they have their issues as well - such as injury etc). Everyone of the Kiwis are world class players. Only way Ireland will beat NZ (or anyone other top tier country) is with luck - certain injuries in the opposition (like Pocock when playing Australia) and all our players being fit and playing above themselves.

b) Irrelevant.

PS - one man's criticism is another man's debate!

So player selection, coaching and tactics are irrelevant. The only thing that will beat NZ is luck.

Ok folks, there we have it, SinE has finally laid his cards on the table and funnily enough, there's no substance to his argument whatsoever.

Mickado wrote:So player selection, coaching and tactics are irrelevant. The only thing that will beat NZ is luck.

Ok folks, there we have it, SinE has finally laid his cards on the table and funnily enough, there's no substance to his argument whatsoever.

Luck isn't insubstantial. For instance, you need a bit of luck that Mike Ross doesn't get injured again because Court isn't a good tighthead (and to be fair, Ross isn't world class either)

Even NZ got lucky in the world cup final when missing their first choice outhalf.

Sin maybe if every post you made wasn't a thinly veiled dig at a Leinster or Ulster player your arguments would carry more weight.

I'm optimistic about this tour and am going to approach it with a positive mindset.

There is huge pressure on Kidney to deliver here, even more than in the 6N. We've had two teams in the HEC final and Leinster are almost universally acknowledged as the finest team in HEC history.

The Ireland team needs to start delivering something resembling the sum of it's parts and this is the ideal time to do it.... well the RWC and 6N was the time to do it but feic it, better late than never.....

That’s a contradiction.

You can’t say player selection isn’t important and then say we need luck to make sure that Ross doesn’t get injured. Surely the selection of Ross is important in the first place.

I don’t know what the wink after Mike Ross isn’t world class is all about. Nobody claimed he was world class.

Are our International players beneath English, Welsh, French and Scottish players in natural ability, Sin é?

I'm not talking team dynamics and knock-ons and box kicks to nothing, I'm talking individual ability as seen thoughout a full year - both Provinical/Regional/Club and International. Are our players less skilled than their rivals in France, England, Wales and Scotland?

If not, then no NH team has many World Class players, if so then really the SH should break away into a close nit pack and play only each other. Is that what you want?

For Ireland to recognise its place in the scheme of things and forget trying to compete with these sides altogether - or if we do, we should all just admit it's a bit of craic for the players, a chance to travel and have a larf... no harm done when we come home with three more humiliating performances - it's to be expected,don't fret - we have the lovely tribal Provincial battles to enjoy for ourselves and we'll all be happy bickering with each other about who is best players................ in our little country?

Is that the vision of realism you want us to accept?

Mickado wrote:That’s a contradiction.

You can’t say player selection isn’t important and then say we need luck to make sure that Ross doesn’t get injured. Surely the selection of Ross is important in the first place.

I don’t know what the wink after Mike Ross isn’t world class is all about. Nobody claimed he was world class.

I've made the point that all the ABs are world class players the wink for Mike Ross was for the fact that he isn't one of our 3/4 world class players and even though he is not a world class player we'd be sunk without him.

So If you’re finished dodging the pertinent questions asked several times what team would you pick, what tactics would you employ and what (long term) would you do about the coaching ticket?

No doubt you’ll continue to ignore the questions and just attempt to poke holes in everyone elses suggestions.

Mickado wrote:That’s a contradiction.

You can’t say player selection isn’t important and then say we need luck to make sure that Ross doesn’t get injured. Surely the selection of Ross is important in the first place.

I don’t know what the wink after Mike Ross isn’t world class is all about. Nobody claimed he was world class.

+1

How you think that we are fullfilling our potential when we have been 4th in the world rankins and are currently 8th, I do not know!


Why did they take away the facepalm emotocon!?

Sin é wrote:

a) Do you think Ireland are fulfilling their potential?
b) If not, what changes do you think should be made to help us do that? Who should be selected, who should be coach, what should the tactics be?

I should have known that you speak for each other

a) Yes. I think they are. Many of our players are very over-rated. We've about 3/4 world class players (and they have their issues as well - such as injury etc). Everyone of the Kiwis are world class players. Only way Ireland will beat NZ (or anyone other top tier country) is with luck - certain injuries in the opposition (like Pocock when playing Australia) and all our players being fit and playing above themselves.

b) Irrelevant.

PS - one man's criticism is another man's debate!

If it only takes one or two players to be injured on the opposition for Ireland to win ala RWC Australia that implies the teams are far closer in ability than you suggest. 3n Australia had beaten NZ, so was that all down to Pocock too? Everyone acknowledges NZ are the best but they are not unbeatable and could have easily lost to France - who probably don't have any more "world class" players than Ireland.

However it's the other teams like Wales, England and Scotland that are the problem for Kidney. He has been consistently out thought by Gatland and doesn't seem to get the best out of the players he has whether they're over-rated or not.

think its hard not to accept that our players under preform at international level, a 5 year old could tell you that. maybe you dont think kidney is the reason for that, grand. But i think its pretty clear he's not the man to revitalize the team. We've gone stale, kidney's patterns are ridiculously predictable and we need a new impetus

Ireland should not be going to NZ, or anywhere else, with an inferiority complex, they should be going there to win...and not by any old means, by taking the rugby ball and trying to outplay the opposition.

We shouldn't fear the opposition.... and most of all we shouldn't fear the feicin rugby ball.

The AB's are the worlds best team and deserve huge respect but we have a strong enough squad that we shouldn't be waving a white flag or going out with a damage limitation mindset.

This is a huge challenge, apart from winning the RWC, beating the AB's is the holy grail for Irish rugby. Every player should be approaching this tour with an extra spring in his step. This is a huge chance to make history.

SUFTIM

SecretFly wrote:Are our International players beneath English, Welsh, French and Scottish players in natural ability, Sin é?


I'm not talking team dynamics and knock-ons and box kicks to nothing, I'm talking individual ability as seen thoughout a full year - both Provinical/Regional/Club and International. Are our players less skilled than their rivals in France, England, Wales and Scotland?

In some key positions on the pitch, we are not as good as the Welsh, English or French at International level. There is a sprinkling of world class players in key positions in the provinces that are not available to Ireland (like Botha, Howlett, Thorn, Nacewa, Afoa, Pienaar etc). Kidney can't get Thorn on the blower and invite him down to play against NZ and will more than likely have to flog an unfit Paul O'Connell. [/quote]

If not, then no NH team has many World Class players, if so then really the SH should break away into a close nit pack and play only each other. Is that what you want?

I don't know why you think I'd want that. I'd like Ireland to beat NZ, but the only way I think we'll do it down there is that we are very lucky (and so far our luck isn't great with two of our better players missing already - Bowe & O'Connell). By the way, they play each other a fair bit. They need the money the matches generate.

For Ireland to recognise its place in the scheme of things and forget trying to compete with these sides altogether - or if we do, we should all just admit it's a bit of craic for the players, a chance to travel and have a larf... no harm done when we come home with three more humiliating performances - it's to be expected,don't fret - we have the lovely tribal Provincial battles to enjoy for ourselves and we'll all be happy bickering with each other about who is best players................ in our little country?

Is that the vision of realism you want us to accept?

Look, I was asked a question as to what I think, thats all.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

a) Do you think Ireland are fulfilling their potential?
b) If not, what changes do you think should be made to help us do that? Who should be selected, who should be coach, what should the tactics be?

I should have known that you speak for each other

a) Yes. I think they are. Many of our players are very over-rated. We've about 3/4 world class players (and they have their issues as well - such as injury etc). Everyone of the Kiwis are world class players. Only way Ireland will beat NZ (or anyone other top tier country) is with luck - certain injuries in the opposition (like Pocock when playing Australia) and all our players being fit and playing above themselves.

b) Irrelevant.

PS - one man's criticism is another man's debate!

If it only takes one or two players to be injured on the opposition for Ireland to win ala RWC Australia that implies the teams are far closer in ability than you suggest. 3n Australia had beaten NZ, so was that all down to Pocock too? Everyone acknowledges NZ are the best but they are not unbeatable and could have easily lost to France - who probably don't have any more "world class" players than Ireland.

However it's the other teams like Wales, England and Scotland that are the problem for Kidney. He has been consistently out thought by Gatland and doesn't seem to get the best out of the players he has whether they're over-rated or not.

One KEY player like Pocock. McCaw would be another. A fit BOD is another one of those players (coincidentally Ireland has declined with his injury/aging issues).

Gatland has had his far share of luck against Ireland which illustrates my point perfectly.

Sin é wrote:I don't know why you think I'd want that. I'd like Ireland to beat NZ, but the only way I think we'll do it down there is that we are very lucky

Maybe we should just cancel the tour then sin? Head down to Tonga or Japan or somewhere we have a chance of winning?

I remember Ireland sides, not as strong as this one, pushing the AB's all the way down in NZ at least 3 times in the past decade. We probably do need some luck but why should this side not be going down there to win?

Mickado wrote:So player selection, coaching and tactics are irrelevant. The only thing that will beat NZ is luck.

Ok folks, there we have it, SinE has finally laid his cards on the table and funnily enough, there's no substance to his argument whatsoever.

Question b) was irrelevant considering my response to Q.b.

Sin é wrote:There is a sprinkling of world class players in key positions in the provinces that are not available to Ireland (like Botha, Howlett, Thorn, Nacewa, Afoa, Pienaar etc).

your definition of "world class" seems rather lenient when referring to foreign players, and of a far higher standard when talkin bout ireland. Botha isnt world class, howlett really isn't and afoa got his ass handed to him by cian healy of all people last week.

Sin other than hoping Ireland lose so you can have a few more digs and players like Sexton, Heaslip and Ross do you have any genuine interest in this tour at all?

Personally I think you are far more interested in winding up fans of the other provinces than you are in Ireland winning and I find that very sad indeed.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:I don't know why you think I'd want that. I'd like Ireland to beat NZ, but the only way I think we'll do it down there is that we are very lucky

Maybe we should just cancel the tour then sin? Head down to Tonga or Japan or somewhere we have a chance of winning?

I remember Ireland sides, not as strong as this one, pushing the AB's all the way down in NZ at least 3 times in the past decade. We probably do need some luck but why should this side not be going down there to win?

If its all just about the winning Rods, fire away.

I disagree with you in that this side is stronger than 3/4 years ago. Ireland peaked I think on the 2008 tour - BOD & POC were at their peak then.

Sin é wrote:

a) Yes. I think they are. Many of our players are very over-rated. We've about 3/4 world class players (and they have their issues as well - such as injury etc). Everyone of the Kiwis are world class players. Only way Ireland will beat NZ (or anyone other top tier country) is with luck - certain injuries in the opposition (like Pocock when playing Australia) and all our players being fit and playing above themselves.

b) Irrelevant.

PS - one man's criticism is another man's debate!

Based on this you must hold out no hope for Munster improving next season.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:There is a sprinkling of world class players in key positions in the provinces that are not available to Ireland (like Botha, Howlett, Thorn, Nacewa, Afoa, Pienaar etc).

your definition of "world class" seems rather lenient when referring to foreign players, and of a far higher standard when talkin bout ireland. Botha isnt world class, howlett really isn't and afoa got his ass handed to him by cian healy of all people last week.

I consider Healy to be one of our world class players (if a bit inconsistent - but he is still very young). Afoa hadn't played in a month prior to that game.

So Ireland are relying on players that can't make the team ahead of players like non world class players like Botha or Howlett!

(Howlett on one leg is still better than most our wingers).

Sin é wrote:
I disagree with you in that this side is stronger than 3/4 years ago. Ireland peaked I think on the 2008 tour - BOD & POC were at their peak then.

I thought 2008 was BODs worst season as a player. O'Connell has played as well as ever in the past 12 months.

Player for player theres no way we were stronger in 2008. There's never been the depth and quality in Irish rugby as there is now. Not even close.

6 of the HEC team of the season were Irish.

Sin é wrote:
In some key positions on the pitch, we are not as good as the Welsh, English or French at International level. There is a sprinkling of world class players in key positions in the provinces that are not available to Ireland (like Botha, Howlett, Thorn, Nacewa, Afoa, Pienaar etc). Kidney can't get Thorn on the blower and invite him down to play against NZ and will more than likely have to flog an unfit Paul O'Connell.

So the foreigners (5 per side) keep Provinces churning past the best that European (foreign packed - think it was 10 in the Clermont side Leinster faced) sides can throw at them and because we can't call on those foreigners, we can't mount the challenges to Wales, England and France (that have to also rely on sides cobbled together without their foreigners)?

Too easy, Sin é. - your brush strokes are too wide and too basic the theory. BTW, Sexton, that terrible man, undid the need for Pienaar, Howlett has many alternatives working through the Provinces - much as I admire him personally; Nacewa wasn't central to Leinster's style in HC final - much as I admire him. Botha and Afoa were repelled.

You seem to suggest without the foreigners we can't play with the pump, the aggression, the forward dominance or the scintillating speed that unwraps opponent defences... I strongly disagree. You say you think all this team can rely on for the forseeable future, against many sides, not just NZ, is luck - I strongly disagree. They are riding their luck now yes, and riding shotgun on that crusade is our head coach.

Sin é wrote:

So Ireland are relying on players that can't make the team ahead of players like non world class players like Botha or Howlett!

Ireland arent relying on munster's current props or wingers... we should take this time to pray, and thank the good lord that this is not the case

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

a) Yes. I think they are. Many of our players are very over-rated. We've about 3/4 world class players (and they have their issues as well - such as injury etc). Everyone of the Kiwis are world class players. Only way Ireland will beat NZ (or anyone other top tier country) is with luck - certain injuries in the opposition (like Pocock when playing Australia) and all our players being fit and playing above themselves.

b) Irrelevant.

PS - one man's criticism is another man's debate!

Based on this you must hold out no hope for Munster improving next season.

Munster are not competing internationally. I'd still expect Munster to make the play-offs of the Magners as we've good Magners standard players.

Magners will thank you for the mention Sin é

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

So Ireland are relying on players that can't make the team ahead of players like non world class players like Botha or Howlett!

Ireland arent relying on munster's current props or wingers... we should take this time to pray, and thank the good lord that this is not the case

I picked those two because you decided they were the only two non-world class players who are first choice for their province when fit. FFS, Leinster brought in Thorn from Japan and picked him ahead of a player that many think should be featuring for Ireland!

Sin é wrote:
Munster are not competing internationally. I'd still expect Munster to make the play-offs of the Magners as we've good Magners standard players.

Making the playoffs would not be improvement.

Since the Munster the playing squad has arguably got worse and you don't seem to think a new coach can do anything if the players don't improve then by default Munster cannot improve.

not me, devin toner has the physicality of a fern. Still, by those "world class" standards of yours sob, fez, sexton, poc, healy, best ,bowe ,kearney and drico should all fit the mould

Sin é wrote:Leinster brought in Thorn from Japan and picked him ahead of a player that many think should be featuring for Ireland!

Sin Thorn is one of the best players ever to play the game. If he was at Munster then neither Ryan or O'Callaghan would get a game either so that is just a nonsence post.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
In some key positions on the pitch, we are not as good as the Welsh, English or French at International level. There is a sprinkling of world class players in key positions in the provinces that are not available to Ireland (like Botha, Howlett, Thorn, Nacewa, Afoa, Pienaar etc). Kidney can't get Thorn on the blower and invite him down to play against NZ and will more than likely have to flog an unfit Paul O'Connell.

So the foreigners (5 per side) keep Provinces churning past the best that European (foreign packed - think it was 10 in the Clermont side Leinster faced) sides can throw at them and because we can't call on those foreigners, we can't mount the challenges to Wales, England and France (that have to also rely on sides cobbled together without their foreigners)?

Too easy, Sin é. - your brush strokes are too wide and too basic the theory. BTW, Sexton, that terrible man, undid the need for Pienaar, Howlett has many alternatives working through the Provinces - much as I admire him personally; Nacewa wasn't central to Leinster's style in HC final - much as I admire him. Botha and Afoa were repelled.

You seem to suggest without the foreigners we can't play with the pump, the aggression, the forward dominance or the scintillating speed that unwraps opponent defences... I strongly disagree. You say you think all this team can rely on for the forseeable future, against many sides, not just NZ, is luck - I strongly disagree. They are riding their luck now yes, and riding shotgun on that crusade is our head coach.

Its not the number per side, its the fact that they are key players for their province.

If Howlett or Nacewa were available to Ireland, they would be picked ahead of every other winger. Pienaar would be picked as SH, Afoa would be picked at Tighthead. Thorn would partner POC.

bowe would start ahead of howlett. even with him playing, munster still have the firepower of a cap gun

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Leinster brought in Thorn from Japan and picked him ahead of a player that many think should be featuring for Ireland!

Sin Thorn is one of the best players ever to play the game. If he was at Munster then neither Ryan or O'Callaghan would get a game either so that is just a nonsence post.

I don't have an inflated opinion on any Irish players (and that includes Munster players as well).

Sin é wrote:

I don't have an inflated opinion on any Irish players (and that includes Munster players as well).

but you have a deflated one. not a winners attitude fosho

Rugby games come down to luck

That is the stupidest thing I will hear all day

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
In some key positions on the pitch, we are not as good as the Welsh, English or French at International level. There is a sprinkling of world class players in key positions in the provinces that are not available to Ireland (like Botha, Howlett, Thorn, Nacewa, Afoa, Pienaar etc). Kidney can't get Thorn on the blower and invite him down to play against NZ and will more than likely have to flog an unfit Paul O'Connell.

So the foreigners (5 per side) keep Provinces churning past the best that European (foreign packed - think it was 10 in the Clermont side Leinster faced) sides can throw at them and because we can't call on those foreigners, we can't mount the challenges to Wales, England and France (that have to also rely on sides cobbled together without their foreigners)?

Too easy, Sin é. - your brush strokes are too wide and too basic the theory. BTW, Sexton, that terrible man, undid the need for Pienaar, Howlett has many alternatives working through the Provinces - much as I admire him personally; Nacewa wasn't central to Leinster's style in HC final - much as I admire him. Botha and Afoa were repelled.

You seem to suggest without the foreigners we can't play with the pump, the aggression, the forward dominance or the scintillating speed that unwraps opponent defences... I strongly disagree. You say you think all this team can rely on for the forseeable future, against many sides, not just NZ, is luck - I strongly disagree. They are riding their luck now yes, and riding shotgun on that crusade is our head coach.

Its not the number per side, its the fact that they are key players for their province.

If Howlett or Nacewa were available to Ireland, they would be picked ahead of every other winger. Pienaar would be picked as SH, Afoa would be picked at Tighthead. Thorn would partner POC.

But who else are key players for their provinces in the Heineken Cup? It's not just the NIQ players.

For Ulster our key homegrown players are Rory Best, Stephen Ferris, Chris Henry and Paddy Wallace.
For Leinster, Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Sean O'Brien, Eoin Reddan, Jonathon Sexton, Brian O'Driscoll and Rob Kearney are all key players.
For Munster, Paul O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Ronan O'Gara and Keith Earls are key players.

Throw in Tommy Bowe and you have a composite XV of players who are leaders in their provinces and decisive in the way their provinces play, and vital to the success of said provinces. What we do not have is a composite style of play to get the best out of them and allow them to perform to their optimum level. None of the backs listed there plays as well as they can for Ireland as they do in their provinces. None!

Okay, I hear you regarding a limited number of world class players and I agree. We don't have genuinely top class players at 3, 7, 8, 9 and 12. But do our Six Nations rivals? Do England, do Wales? They don't have reams of world class individual talent, they have no more talent than us. They just get far more mileage out of theirs.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Leinster brought in Thorn from Japan and picked him ahead of a player that many think should be featuring for Ireland!

Sin Thorn is one of the best players ever to play the game. If he was at Munster then neither Ryan or O'Callaghan would get a game either so that is just a nonsence post.

I don't have an inflated opinion on any Irish players (and that includes Munster players as well).

My point is that people like Thorn, Afoa, Pienar are not your average Joes. Thorn and Afoa would still walk into the AB's side.

Not getting selected ahead of these guys does not mean a player is not international standard which is what you are saying.

Brad Thorn who has played starred for the Brisbane Broncos, The Kangeroos, the ABs and Canterbury had this to say on Leinster:

Thorn laughs and moves on to explain, drawing from his own vast experience of winning teams, what serves to make them successful.

“The fundamentals need to be there to start with, you know, stuff like caring about each other. You’re not going to have an easy season, there’s going to be a lot of tough moments – like today, you see the last five or 10 minutes, you’ve just got to put your body on the line for each other.

“So you need to care about your mates, then there’s work ethic, discipline, sacrifice, humility, being smart, passionate – all those things.

“It’s easy to say those words, but you’ve got to live those words. Leinster live those words, and so did the Broncos, the Crusaders and the All Blacks when I was with them. They were different sides, different styles of teams but all those things shone through.”

Leinster’s style of play has impressed him just as much as the team’s culture. “It’s outstanding, it’s very positive,” he says. “It’s not about negative play.

“This experience with Leinster, it’s cool. You go out there and you play rugby. You’re not going out there to put the other team off, you’re going out there to see how good you can be. I like that.”

I wonder does he have an inflated opinion of our players and teams as well?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rugby games come down to luck

That is the stupidest thing I will hear all day

Its just another way of saying you need things to go your way.

We have a very good team:

SOB- ERC player of the year last year
Kearney- ERC player of the year this year
BOD- One of the best players to play the game
POC- One of the most respected players in the NH
Sexton- Well known for his fantastic performances in the HCup
Ferris- Was on course to be one of the stars of Lions 09 until injury
Bowe- Was a star of Lions 09 along with Roberts

We do have a number of players who are not playing well and haven't for some time (Darcy, DOC, ROG) but overall we have a pretty good team.

The only thing that seems to really dimish us is our game plan. The way we play the game is not just awful to watch but it means we win less games.
Our defence is excellent but our attack has been woeful since 2009 when it thrived off set piece play.

DK is to blame for our game plan.
It is his responsibility.
It is his responsibility to get the players to play well together.

He was a great coach when the laws favoured the defending team.
He built a team around defence, kicking and lineout. Now that creativity plays a very large part he is not (and I don't think ever will be again unless the laws change) a hugely successful coach.

Why don't we play like we did against England in 2011? That should be our template every time we play.

rodders wrote:

I wonder does he have an inflated opinion of our players and teams as well?

Thorn has come into a winning team for the last couple of games and ends up winning a Heineken Cup medal. What do you expect him to say? Its not like he has seen any of the bad times.

Maybe that is the problem - the Leinster players can't cope when they are up against it!

We need to actually use the skills of the players we have. Use Sexton's magnificent running and passing game. Use Reddan to up the tempo. Kick much less. Pass much more. Run good support lines. Use Earls and Kearneys running game.

The All Blacks will be rusty, so if we can bring the intensity up front that we did in the Aussie RWC match, we can put them under pressure. DON'T relieve the pressure by kicking a garryowen. Use the combination of great ball carriers and accurate passers and elusive runners that we have to pose multiple threats. Actually make it hard for them to predict what we're going to do. But I think that idea is alien to Kidney to be honest.

Notch wrote:
Okay, I hear you regarding a limited number of world class players and I agree. We don't have genuinely top class players at 3, 7, 8, 9 and 12. But do our Six Nations rivals? Do England, do Wales? They don't have reams of world class individual talent, they have no more talent than us. They just get far more mileage out of theirs.

The point I continually try to make but I've given up due to lack of traction. Things balance out - every player on a fifteen man side is a 'key' player in his own right - and no side has a perfect 15. You balance your good with your bad - when you carry not so good, you sensibly try to over-emphasise your good, play around your bad, avoid it as much as possible - be smart with the 80 minutes you have.

That's what rugby is - two sides with their own strengths trying to force the game into their best parts and the opponents trying to avoid those areas and shift the play into their areas of strength. A boxing match, side-stepping and dancing around trouble. Wales, England, France and even the great NZ will have parts of their game weaker than others. Ireland doesn't exploit its best bits, overly seek to avoid the worst bits OR find and punish their opponents weaknesses. Do we have 15 WC players of the standard Sin é refers to? No - and as Notch says, neither do certainly the other European sides. That's where managing your strengths comes into the equation - Ireland isn't doing it - Wales is.

Sin - out of interest, which irish players are overrated and why? Excluding Sexton, we already know your opinion on him. I really hope you answer this because to be honest, it just looks like another dig against Leinster/Ulster. Kidney is the coach, it isn't his fault. It is the (non-Munster) players. That is how it looks to me.