Irish Summer Tour Squad

First topic message reminder :

RELAND SUMMER TOUR SQUAD (New Zealand 2012):

Backs (13):

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
AN Other

Forwards (16):

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster) *
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
AN Other
AN Other
AN Other

Anyone else wish we had a few midweek games. I think it would be a very good tour and its a pity they decided against it. To be fair though with Leinster in the ERC/Pro12 finals, and Ulster there and Munster having made playoffs its been a long season and it could be a bit much.

What you think? Should they have gone for it or is the Baa Baas game enough.

rodders wrote:Ah come on now lads take the fishhooks out of your mouths and lets be friends.....

Butt out ya Northern bollix!

Oh sorry Rodders! Getting carried away there

You've been SinE'd Fly man.... it happens to the best of us...... ....

Stag, if there was room in the calendar that would be great but we’re cutting it fine with 3 tests on their own.

A few midweek games would certainly prepare us a little better for the main events though.

Would have preffered if they had cut the Ba Bas game in exchange for a Maori or super XV game. Really not to keen on barbarian games though

I'm not a huge Sexton fan, but he is cleary the right man for Ireland. ROG has been done for at least a year. His kicking distance has severely declined, as it does with age. He has been a great servant but I think he should go. He will tery and cling on as long as he can like Brett Favre did in the NFL. Could we see ROG play until he is 40?

Thomond - five years is a seriously long time in sport. Not a chance will he last at top flight until 40.

5 years ago - Leinster had never made it to the Heineken Cup Final, Gatland wasn't coaching Wales, Ireland were preparing for the upcoming 2007 Rugby World Cup.

Not a hope in 5 years time ROG will still be doing it.

I don't think so either, but he will keep going for as long as he can. I only mentioned 40 beacuse of Favre. I could see Rog playing for another 2 seasons though.

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Sin é lets not make this into a Munster v Leinster debate. FFS we are all Irish fans.

Censure Fly - he is the one who started it. I'm only defending my opinion.

I dont understand why when it comes to international we can't just be Irish fans instead of all this provincial willy waving.

I don't understand why you behave like soccer fans - the answer is always its the coach's fault/sack the coach.

I'd appreciate if you would show me where I was willy waving any Munster player.

Sorry if you don't like that I don't think its Kidney's fault that Ross gets injured in the 6ns and Gordon D'Arcy's butter fingers are not his fault either.

Kidney is the man in charge. The buck stops with him therefore if the team isn't performing he's responsible. He has many good characteristics but he is not getting results. We are underperforming therefore he should be let go. Simple as that really.

Thomond wrote:I don't think so either, but he will keep going for as long as he can. I only mentioned 40 beacuse of Favre. I could see Rog playing for another 2 seasons though.

To be honest Thomond I think he's already shot and should have retired after the RWC. Like you say his kicking out of hand has really declined, he's standing very deep and has become very predictable in attack and has become easy pickings for opposition flankers.

I think he's had a very poor season and I can't believe he's made the NZ tour ahead of Madigan.

His goal kicking is still top class but thats about it.

Kidney is largely responsible for the poor play of this team. However the players are culpable. Some basic errors but also the fact they have showed an inability to change the gamepaln on the pitch. If you see something isn't working, you adapt. I'm disappointed by that in some respects. Kidney deserves major flak and hopefully he shows some signs of progress in NZ.

Agree with you Rodders, sure the two of us were talking about that after the Ospreys game, he is far too deep in attack, any form of quick ball is negated by the time it gets to the centres.

The thing is Thomond if he's now struggling at that level how do the selecters think he can do the business against the AB's?

It's insane and it does no one any favours, not the team and not ROG.

This standing deep is killing us.

I don't see him starting but if he came off the bench he could be good for 15/20 minutes. However, I would want to see if Sexton could close out a game in one of his most difficult games at international level. We know ROG can/could do it what about Johnny?

I should add that the quality of ROG's long passing is still very good but hes so deep, and doesn't draw defenders that its just so easy to defend and if you meet an aggressive blitz defence and start getting smashed behind the gainline then you are feiced, totally fieced.....

The AB's just live for turnovers and counterattacking so its a recipe for disaster.

I have no doubts whatsoever about Sextons ability to close out games. None.

I wouldn't have too many either but that's one of the main theories put forward by people.

Thomond wrote:

Agree with you Rodders, sure the two of us were talking about that after the Ospreys game, he is far too deep in attack, any form of quick ball is negated by the time it gets to the centres.

Where was he standing in the game against Northampton? That seemed to work.

rodders wrote:I have no doubts whatsoever about Sextons ability to close out games. None.

So you were not disappointed that he didn't try for the drop goal against France when he had the opportunity to win the game?

red_stag wrote:This standing deep is killing us.

Both the standing and the deep - yep, nothing more really to say. Too passive, too inviting for teams that like to be invited, too enegry sapping per percentage of game played, too adrenaline cooling for highly strung, tightly strung backs. There probably are times for what Ireland does but Ireland does much too much of it per one 80 minute game - and we ...... to use Stag's words, get killed in the process and by the process.

rodders wrote:The thing is Thomond if he's now struggling at that level how do the selecters think he can do the business against the AB's?

It's insane and it does no one any favours, not the team and not ROG.

Only being struggling since warming the bench during the 6Ns and picking up a dead leg against Ulster.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I have no doubts whatsoever about Sextons ability to close out games. None.

So you were not disappointed that he didn't try for the drop goal against France when he had the opportunity to win the game?

I'm disappointed we were even in a position that we needed a drop goal. France should have been put to the sword but instead we sat back on our lead and let them back into the game.

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:

Agree with you Rodders, sure the two of us were talking about that after the Ospreys game, he is far too deep in attack, any form of quick ball is negated by the time it gets to the centres.

Where was he standing in the game against Northampton? That seemed to work.

That's great Sin sure the next Ireland tour of Northampton we can look him up.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I have no doubts whatsoever about Sextons ability to close out games. None.

So you were not disappointed that he didn't try for the drop goal against France when he had the opportunity to win the game?

I'm disappointed we were even in a position that we needed a drop goal. France should have been put to the sword but instead we sat back on our lead and let them back into the game.

You just claimed that you have no concerns about his ability to close out a game

Murphy's try came from good recycling and sucking in defenders. ROG hits the line with some pace in it and Hurley draws in defenders, Murphy finishers very well.

Zebo's first comes from mainly flat running.
Zebo's second comes from decoy runners and a relatively flat ROG. Good hands, possibly forward though. ROG was flat, ball was quick, had drawn defenders in. Zebo's third comes from a flat Keatley sucking in defenders and giving a great inside ball. So ROG can do it if he wants, he just doesn't do it often enough.

Spoiler:

I don't. There's much more to fly half play than kicking drop goals.

If you have faith in your side and players then closing out games shouldn't come in to it.

Dan Carter doesn't get picked because of his ability to close out games. He gets picked because hes the vital cog in how his team need to play rugby to win rugby games.

if were were not so obsessed with closing out the game and hanging on for dear life maybe we would not be in this predicament. top class rugby teams do not sit back and rely on their defence when they get a lead they go for the jugular. leinster do this, munster have done this ireland do not.

two early trys, lets close out the game. have a day off

a classic example would be the game in Scotland a few years back. 3 early tries absolutely coasting against a crap scottish team. we sit back stop playing and nearly blow it.

we are hardly in a position where we need to shut up shop every game. its not a massive issue

against good teams we normally start poorly, leathering the ball up in the air for the first half go behind and start playing when its too late

Exactly Dave.

There'll be no closing out games against the All blacks. If we don't want to keep playing rugby for 80 mins then we've no chance.

rodders wrote:I don't. There's much more to fly half play than kicking drop goals.

If you have faith in your side and players then closing out games shouldn't come in to it.

Dan Carter doesn't get picked because of his ability to close out games. He gets picked because hes the vital cog in how his team need to play rugby to win rugby games.

Who said there wasn't more to flyhalf play than kicking drop goals. To win the game though, Sexton took the wrong option. He let his team mates down who probably got it to him so that he could kick it. That drop goal was the difference on this occasion between winning and losing.

Sexton is no Dan Carter !

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't. There's much more to fly half play than kicking drop goals.

If you have faith in your side and players then closing out games shouldn't come in to it.

Dan Carter doesn't get picked because of his ability to close out games. He gets picked because hes the vital cog in how his team need to play rugby to win rugby games.

Who said there wasn't more to flyhalf play than kicking drop goals. To win the game though, Sexton took the wrong option. He let his team mates down who probably got it to him so that he could kick it. That drop goal was the difference on this occasion between winning and losing.

Sexton is no Dan Carter !

Yup sure. Course he did.

Brian Moore, of all people, kinda put his finger on the nub of reasons why not and reasons why it should be for Ireland inc:

"With the pool of talent available they should not be mentioning things like their relatively small playing base and the like.
A change in attitude is needed whereby they seize their status as the most talented group of players in the northern hemisphere, accept they should be and are favourites.
Then they need to openly declare their aim for grand slams and World Cup finals, being disappointed with anything less."

That IS us he's talking about. He sees how possible it is for Ireland to rise from the ashes of mediocrity.

Too many excuses, now we simply need the turnaround - yes, both from underperforming coaches AND underperforming players.
Enough is enough. Leinster players this week talk about now going for the two titles, when last year they might have mentally shirked off the prospect. So add the other string too...don't come into International thinking well, we are great at Provincial and maybe we better save ourselves a little for it. Want it all and when outsiders look in and say it is all possible - believe them and go for it.

For once Moore is spot on fly.

Moore usually is spot on.

Against France it wasn't Sexton sitting back it was the entire XV - the team tactics changed and it cost us the game

Not a hope in 5 years time ROG will still be doing it.

He has always been over rated. Good boot, but weak. Very weak. I think he's a wee bugger actually..

And the reason why he got a dead leg was because Kidney didnt pick him, so he was sitting on the bench (cause of that pesky Sexton).....

That pesky Sexton.

He kicked Mafi in the head you know. Yip. Oh I know John Hayes did the same, but it's graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnndddd, cause hes a forward.

Oh, and Ireland arent rubbish because the coach is responsible. How could he be?

The fault obviously lies with that wee bugger Sexton, Darcy, Reddan and everyone at Leinster.

Oh and Ross isnt an 80 minute man.

Sin E, you are either (and I dont care if this is deemed a personal insult) a complete one eyed fool, or you are taking the urine out of all of us (wum).

That was more Kindey's fault that most other occasions, we have seen that the Leinster dressing room can be an amazing place at halftime and in the French game the dressing room was entirely the opposite!

red_stag wrote:Anyone else wish we had a few midweek games. I think it would be a very good tour and its a pity they decided against it. To be fair though with Leinster in the ERC/Pro12 finals, and Ulster there and Munster having made playoffs its been a long season and it could be a bit much.

What you think? Should they have gone for it or is the Baa Baas game enough.

6 months ago Stag I was quite angry that they hadn't put in any midweek games now it doesn't seem such a bad call due to how tired our players seem to be or will be.

I think if we had brought a larger squad though we could have had other guys playing in the Irish set up and that can only be a good thing IMO. A midweek team of:

McAllister-Sherry-FitzPatrick
Toner-O'Callaghan
McLaughlin-Ruddock-Henry (c)
Marshall-Madigan
Wallace-Cave
Zebo-Kearney Jr-Gilroy

Cronin-Hagan-Tuohy-Jennings-Boss-O'Gara-McFadden

I think this would have been a good idea myself. Bring more players expose them more then give them the time off. It is an extra month of rugby but huge experience.

BoyneRFC wrote:

Not a hope in 5 years time ROG will still be doing it.

He has always been over rated. Good boot, but weak. Very weak. I think he's a wee bugger actually..

And the reason why he got a dead leg was because Kidney didnt pick him, so he was sitting on the bench (cause of that pesky Sexton).....

That pesky Sexton.

He kicked Mafi in the head you know. Yip. Oh I know John Hayes did the same, but it's graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnndddd, cause hes a forward.

Oh, and Ireland arent rubbish because the coach is responsible. How could he be?

The fault obviously lies with that wee bugger Sexton, Darcy, Reddan and everyone at Leinster.

Oh and Ross isnt an 80 minute man.

Sin E, you are either (and I dont care if this is deemed a personal insult) a complete one eyed fool, or you are taking the urine out of all of us (wum).

If I was such a complete one eyed fool why are you expending so much energy on trying to prove me wrong about Ireland, whose fault it is and that Sexton is has about the same measure of esteem that I have for Shane Williams.

Are you worried that "fools never differ" rather than "Great Minds think alike" applies to you Stepford girls?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:That was more Kindey's fault that most other occasions, we have seen that the Leinster dressing room can be an amazing place at halftime and in the French game the dressing room was entirely the opposite!

Kidney should get Brad Thorn into the Irish dressing room to give Heislip a boot up the arse.

geoff998rugby wrote:Moore usually is spot on.

Against France it wasn't Sexton sitting back it was the entire XV - the team tactics changed and it cost us the game

Doesn't change the fact that Sexton turned down a shot of a drop goal to win the game. He might not have got it, but until he starts taking the responsibility to do that, Ireland will win nothing.

Lets come at this from a different point of view Sin.

If you could wave a magic wand and change things in the Irish set up, what would you do. You can move people around, bring in new players, new coaches whatever, but you can't make anyone better or worse than they are now.

What would be your plan of action?

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:

Agree with you Rodders, sure the two of us were talking about that after the Ospreys game, he is far too deep in attack, any form of quick ball is negated by the time it gets to the centres.

Where was he standing in the game against Northampton? That seemed to work.

That's great Sin sure the next Ireland tour of Northampton we can look him up.

So true.

Mickado wrote:Lets come at this from a different point of view Sin.

If you could wave a magic wand and change things in the Irish set up, what would you do. You can move people around, bring in new players, new coaches whatever, but you can't make anyone better or worse than they are now.

What would be your plan of action?

You mean like Ireland was a club where you can buy in world cup winners from places like Japan when one of your key players in injured?

BoyneRFC wrote:

Not a hope in 5 years time ROG will still be doing it.

He has always been over rated. Good boot, but weak. Very weak. I think he's a wee bugger actually..

And the reason why he got a dead leg was because Kidney didnt pick him, so he was sitting on the bench (cause of that pesky Sexton).....

That pesky Sexton.

He kicked Mafi in the head you know. Yip. Oh I know John Hayes did the same, but it's graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnndddd, cause hes a forward.

Oh, and Ireland arent rubbish because the coach is responsible. How could he be?

The fault obviously lies with that wee bugger Sexton, Darcy, Reddan and everyone at Leinster.

Oh and Ross isnt an 80 minute man.

Sin E, you are either (and I dont care if this is deemed a personal insult) a complete one eyed fool, or you are taking the urine out of all of us (wum).

Kidney is largely responsible for the shoite play not fully responsible. The players must take some flak too.

Why should the players take responsibility? If they are not performing then it's up to kidney to drop them. Point is the players are sweating bullets out there for their country that's not an issue. The issues are the tactics, levels of organisation invention and preparation etc. are where we are falling behind and have been for a few years now.

Ireland probably has the most professional bunch of players in world rugby. There is very little off field nonsense and scandal. When have we ever had a Cipriani/Henson character? The level of dedication shown by our internationals is remarkable.

They take flak because they have not tried to alter things when they are not going right. Performances have been poor and some of that has nothing to do with tactics. I speak mainly about lineout not functioning and poor handling. The players are responsible for that. Kidney has a hand in it but the players are culpable here too.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Lets come at this from a different point of view Sin.

If you could wave a magic wand and change things in the Irish set up, what would you do. You can move people around, bring in new players, new coaches whatever, but you can't make anyone better or worse than they are now.

What would be your plan of action?

You mean like Ireland was a club where you can buy in world cup winners from places like Japan when one of your key players in injured?

No. Just in general.

a) Do you think Ireland are fulfilling their potential?
b) If not, what changes do you think should be made to help us do that? Who should be selected, who should be coach, what should the tactics be?

I always hear you criticising other peoples views- why don't you say what YOU think Ireland need to do to get back to competing for Slams and beating SH teams?

Thomond wrote:They take flak because they have not tried to alter things when they are not going right. Performances have been poor and some of that has nothing to do with tactics. I speak mainly about lineout not functioning and poor handling. The players are responsible for that. Kidney has a hand in it but the players are culpable here too.

Firstly its not the players job to alter things when they are not going right its the managers job. Secondly poor handling is down to poor coaching which Kidney is ultimately responsible for. The reason Irelands handling is bad is because A they are badly drilled and B they there is no variety, no game plan no inventive backs moves etc. Bad handling 9 times out of 10 is the result of pressure. Pressure comes when the opposition can predict what you will do and Ireland are completly predictable. I amazes me how little thought seems to be going into Irelands back moves. This is why handling is bad IMO, nothing to do with skill levels or lack of effort or desire on the part of the players.

Again being good at the lineout is about being well drilled or being tactically astute.

The DOR has only one real opportunity to talk to his players. At half time. It's up to them to change things after that. Kidney is a DOR not a coach, he/the IRFU should have surrounded Ireland with better coaches.

As for the lineout. That is not all down to coaching. It can be a combination of things, having both thrown and lifted in the lineout, it has a lot to do with timing. Coaching can help with that but it really is on the day stuff.


The players deserve some criticism here. Maybe not a lot but they can't get away scot free.

Thomond wrote:The DOR has only one real opportunity to talk to his players. At half time. It's up to them to change things after that. Kidney is a DOR not a coach, he/the IRFU should have surrounded Ireland with better coaches.

As for the lineout. That is not all down to coaching. It can be a combination of things, having both thrown and lifted in the lineout, it has a lot to do with timing. Coaching can help with that but it really is on the day stuff.


The players deserve some criticism here. Maybe not a lot but they can't get away scot free.

I don't blame him for everything and said as much earlier today...but I do blame him for a lot...and mostly I blame him for the things he can change and the things he can demand. His coaches don't choose the overall strategy of how Ireland play...they prepare their bits and in consultation with him choose how to emphasise each aspect of rugby (backs, forwards, lineouts, breakdowns, attack, defence, scrums etc) into an overall gameplan. He is part of that. He's been around rugby long enough to know all those aspects in great detail, to have opinions on how it all should gel together...so, whilst a few might argue that he has no input into match day gameplans - I simply don't believe that one, sorry.

I also blame him for his player choices - that's his grace too to choose his players, the players he wants to play to his plans. So he chooses, and they underperform. People complain and they are told to pipe down, that Kidney doesn't run onto the field, make the mistakes in handling, do the knock-ons or decide to do a box kick that doesn't work... no, so he doesn't do any of that. But again, it's his job to choose the players who do - and over the last few years he stubbornly kept with a few of those players who repeat offended. It's his job to unburden players of responsibility if he is finding they can't handle it - in this regard I do blame him for continuing to pick players who underperform.

And I blame him for not being strong enough to demand a full coaching panel to be with him through his entire tenure, not in dribs and drabs as they are coming and going now. If he wants them and isn't getting them then I blame him for being too softly softly with his employers who are tarnishing his record in the process. And if he himself thinks he can get by without them, if he thinks he can have some of his coaches double jobbing, then that's also something that's not right and he can be blamed for being unrealistic in a ruthless International world when other sides have armies of assistants

I blame Kidney for the aspects of the team he IS involved in, the aspects of the team he IS responsible for. He gets paid to do a job, not to mosey round the dressing room doing little one to one motivational speeches in player's ears. I blame him for the aspects of his job he's responsible for - tying together the overall framework for how this team operates (gameplan) and choosing the players to play it.

Players have underperformed - yes. But as I said, that's also when Kidney must be seen to do his job and select different players - the selected player isn't responsible for being in an Ireland shirt underperforming - the coach is.